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View Full Version : Theists: What would it take for you to deconvert?



StartTheMachine
05-17-2008, 08:14 AM
What could make you change your mind regarding the existence of a supreme being and/or the truth of your religion?





I'd very much like to know.

Enso
05-17-2008, 08:16 AM
Absolutely nothing. I understand and respect the atheist point of view, but nothing will deter me from the basic premise of God and creation.

When there is no I, what remains?

StartTheMachine
05-17-2008, 08:51 AM
I was hoping for a few more responses.

Bump.

Max~Power
05-17-2008, 08:52 AM
It's to hard for me to put faith in the boom now everything works perfectly....tides, gravity, sun, moon, protein ect.

Creation is what I put my faith into.

Both require a huge amount of faith.

I can't tell you what created the creator and you can't tell me where the particles for the big bang to happen came from. But I will tell you, we're here and I am not going to spend my time on an internet forum trying to belittle or make fun of Christians / Muslims / Jews ect. Like most of you set out to do everyday.

You have science ? Every changing and never fact.
We have the bible -

It requires a ton of faith to believe either

Barry Bonds
05-17-2008, 10:50 AM
before Christ found me.

To answer the question, there is nothing.

Black_Spit
05-17-2008, 11:03 AM
Both require a huge amount of faith.


By 'both,' do you refer to both athiesm as well as theism?

If so, then absolutely not.

Let me tell you how simple it is, and how little faith it required for me to not believe:

From the time I was young, I heard people talk about mythical beings that I could not see or touch... told ridiculous stories that I could see with my own eyes were not logical. I disregarded it as early as I can literally remember(I never believed it). No faith required. It does not even require 10 minutes a year of my thoughts(that 10 minutes is when I drop by the R/P section... seriously).

Galt
05-17-2008, 11:04 AM
gmsis-motuY

Astaldoath
05-17-2008, 11:58 AM
in this life nothing. If I was dead and then just was dead then i guess I wouldnt have a choice would I but I would be dead so no stupid arguements would matter :D

user1245464
05-17-2008, 01:39 PM
This is what distinguishes theistic from atheistic rationale.

"Atheists, what would it take you to believe?"
"Evidence."

"Theists, what would it take you to deconvert?"
"Nothing."

Galt
05-17-2008, 02:50 PM
Any more proud dogmatists want to air their delusional certainty out for us? I'm curious, is there anyone out there who actually claims to believe religious proposition for valid reasons, or is it all just blind, traditional faith?

Melkor
05-17-2008, 03:13 PM
Honestly, even if I had undeniable proof that God didn't exist I would still live a very similar lifestyle, because I have found that I am happier when I obey the commandments, and my family is closer and more at peace as well. I'm a Mormon, and family is very important to us, and that focus on family makes our home life generally very good. I really believe that anyone that tried a Mormon lifestyle, even without a belief in God would find that they were happier and had a better family life.

Melkor
05-17-2008, 03:15 PM
Any more proud dogmatists want to air their delusional certainty out for us? I'm curious, is there anyone out there who actually claims to believe religious proposition for valid reasons, or is it all just blind, traditional faith?

Galt, let go of the arrogance bro. It serves no purpose, and it is misplaced. Faith is not a bad thing, regardless of your personal opinion on the matter. Many of the greatest men who have ever lived were religious, "afflicted" with faith similar to my own. Whatever you personally think of it, faith can inspire men to greatness and very often has.

Galt
05-17-2008, 03:18 PM
Galt, let go of the arrogance bro. It serves no purpose, and it is misplaced. Faith is not a bad thing, regardless of your personal opinion on the matter. Many of the greatest men who have ever lived were religious, "afflicted" with faith similar to my own. Whatever you personally think of it, faith can inspire men to greatness and very often has.

Men without faith often achieve greatness without pretending to know things that no one could ever possibly know. This is a bad argument.
And blind faith is incredibly dangerous. Remember 9/11? Remember slavery? What about people who dogmatically assert that black people are sub-human, regardless of what new evidence is presented?
Everything you just said was ridiculous and potentially dangerous, and there isn't a polite way for me to say it to you. Sorry.

And the question stands. Any takers?

Any more proud dogmatists want to air their delusional certainty out for us? I'm curious, is there anyone out there who actually claims to believe religious proposition for valid reasons, or is it all just blind, traditional faith?

Melkor
05-17-2008, 03:28 PM
Men without faith often achieve greatness without pretending to know things that no one could ever possibly know. This is a bad argument.
And blind faith is incredibly dangerous. Remember 9/11? Remember slavery? What about people who dogmatically assert that black people are sub-human, regardless of what new evidence is presented?
Everything you just said was ridiculous and potentially dangerous, and there isn't a polite way for me to say it to you. Sorry.

Every point you made was wrong.

Men without faith may rise to greatness, yes, but their lack of faith does not inspire them to it. Faith in God has very often been responsible for great goodness.

Faith is not what caused 9/11 any more than science is responsible for it for creating the airplanes and jet fuel that killed those people. By your misguided mentality politics are every bit as evil as you regard religion to be. If you are going to take one group of people (in this case insane extremists) and base your judgment of ALL religious people off of that group, then you should also do the same with all other ideologies, such as politics, or science, making anyone that practices either of them just as evil since both have had groups of evil men within them.

Slavery and racism is not a religious concept per se, it is a social construct. I'm sure there have been people that have used religious ideology to back up whatever misguided beliefs they had on the idea, but that (again) is not a condemnation of religion, but of the person who misuses it. Science, once again, could be held just as responsible, since MANY people used "science" to back up racism for generations.

In summation, you have come to the conclusion that religious is evil based purely on emotional knee-jerk, and are now busily trying to prove it by twisting reality to your liking.

bmy-
05-17-2008, 03:30 PM
Subscribed. For the record.. I agree with melkor.

Hate the player.

Galt
05-17-2008, 03:33 PM
Every point you made was wrong.

Men without faith may rise to greatness, yes, but their lack of faith does not inspire them to it. Faith in God has very often been responsible for great goodness.
People don't need faith to be good, but dogmatism has been part of almost every historic act of 'genocidal stupidity', to borrow from Sam Harris.
And whether or not a delusion or placebo is useful has nothing to do with whether or not it is true. I can invent a religion right now, that if accepted by the majority of the people on this planet, would greatly increase the quality of life. I'm not in the business of condoning helpful delusions.


Faith is not what caused 9/11 any more than science is responsible for it for creating the airplanes and jet fuel that killed those people. By your misguided mentality politics are every bit as evil as you regard religion to be. If you are going to take one group of people (in this case insane extremists) and base your judgment of ALL religious people off of that group, then you should also do the same with all other ideologies, such as politics, or science, making anyone that practices either of them just as evil since both have had groups of evil men within them.
Do I need to link you to the videos of the terrorists explicitly stating why they did what they did? Do you need to see some beheading videos or something?
These men were acting for religious, and moral reasons. They said they were doing what they did because they believed it was commanded by the creator of the universe, and they believed that their deaths, and those of all the victims was just an illusion.
jjFh4wR2QcM


Slavery and racism is not a religious concept per se, it is a social construct. I'm sure there have been people that have used religious ideology to back up whatever misguided beliefs they had on the idea, but that (again) is not a condemnation of religion, but of the person who misuses it. Science, once again, could be held just as responsible, since MANY people used "science" to back up racism for generations.
I'm saying blindly, dogmatically asserting something is dangerous. We need to demand reasons in the modern world, we know better now.
And unfortunately, slave abolitionists happened to be on the wrong side of a theological argument, but that's a different discussion for a different thread.


In summation, you have come to the conclusion that religious is evil based purely on emotional knee-jerk, and are now busily trying to prove it by twisting reality to your liking.
I think that dogmatism and blindly believing something, for example, communism, is incredibly dangerous and is the source of an unnecessary surplus of human misery.


EDIT****
And to any of your comments about science-- this is not about science, it is about reason.

Klippymitch
05-17-2008, 04:30 PM
What could make you change your mind regarding the existence of a supreme being and/or the truth of your religion?





I'd very much like to know.
What is wrong with you. You need to leave people alone and let them believe in their own beliefs. Stop trying to convert people.

GermanBB
05-17-2008, 05:13 PM
I've been trying to think about this one, but I have to agree with many of the above. Nothing will make me lose my faith.

DaCougarMech
05-17-2008, 05:32 PM
It's to hard for me to put faith in the boom now everything works perfectly....tides, gravity, sun, moon, protein ect.

Creation is what I put my faith into.

Both require a huge amount of faith.

I can't tell you what created the creator and you can't tell me where the particles for the big bang to happen came from. But I will tell you, we're here and I am not going to spend my time on an internet forum trying to belittle or make fun of Christians / Muslims / Jews ect. Like most of you set out to do everyday.

You have science ? Every changing and never fact.
We have the bible -

It requires a ton of faith to believe either

lmao. do you have a huge amount of faith that a fire can melt a plastic bottle?

a huge amount of faith that dry wood burns?

a huge amount of faith that helium is lighter than air?

man, have fun belittling science behind YOUR COMPUTER

timbo81
05-17-2008, 05:32 PM
nothing really that I can think of.



if aliens landed here it would pose some serious questions though.

Skwidward
05-17-2008, 08:02 PM
When there is no I, what remains?
I don't get what you mean by this question. Please elaborate. (serious)

drew101
05-17-2008, 08:12 PM
Nothing. Nothing. Nothing.

drew101
05-17-2008, 08:13 PM
nothing really that I can think of.



if aliens landed here it would pose some serious questions though.

You'll know why God created billions of galaxies.

It will also make life far more complex than it is already; more intelligent design.

Enso
05-17-2008, 08:26 PM
I don't get what you mean by this question. Please elaborate. (serious)

When there is no I, there is no I to claim it, nor no it to claim I. What then is there? What remains?

It's a Zen Koan. I'm afraid I can't elaborate further.

thor93
05-17-2008, 08:34 PM
What could make you change your mind regarding the existence of a supreme being and/or the truth of your religion?





I'd very much like to know.



Sorry but the very essence of this question is an OxyMoron.

Wayyyy Too much evidence throughout my life to realize otherwise.

PopeyesChicken
05-17-2008, 08:40 PM
I want jesus himself to come down into my room and turn my computer into an auto bot.

Skwidward
05-17-2008, 08:41 PM
When there is no I, there is no I to claim it, nor no it to claim I. What then is there? What remains?

Reading this, I would say "it" remains whether "it" is able to claim "I" or not. It still remains.

You appeared to be using the question, "When there is no I, what remains?" as the reason as to why your belief in God will never be comprimised.

I like a lot of your posts, but I just can't see how this question can be such a reason. I must be missing something.

Unless this is just the concept that maybe everything only exists inside my own mind, and that without my mind, nothing will exist. Even so, I don't see how such a belief would prevent any swaying from a belief in God. Is not like that concept even points in the direction of a God or anything along those lines.

Enso
05-17-2008, 09:20 PM
Reading this, I would say "it" remains whether "it" is able to claim "I" or not. It still remains.

You appeared to be using the question, "When there is no I, what remains?" as the reason as to why your belief in God will never be comprimised.

I like a lot of your posts, but I just can't see how this question can be such a reason. I must be missing something.

Thank you. I'd say that interpretation is accurate. However, as a panentheist...no matter what you remove...God is still there. God is the remain-der. So, even if you remove concepts like I or God, 'it' still remains. That, for me, is where I place my faith. And that reality I just can't shake no matter how hard I try.

TheNewAddiction
05-17-2008, 10:12 PM
This is what distinguishes theistic from atheistic rationale.

"Atheists, what would it take you to believe?"
"Evidence."

"Theists, what would it take you to deconvert?"
"Nothing."

Actually that's an all to common remark from an atheist - and is a huge part of the problem. Atheists can be and are equally dogmatic as Theists and many Theists, including myself would actually like to see a logical, rational argument put forth from Atheists. Why??? Because we are logical and rational beings. So far all we get is jokes, ad hom attacks, emotionalism, straw man arguments, logical fallacies and nonsense. I see very little intelligence, logic, rationalism and 'evidence' in Atheism. (especially here at this website.) I do see manlets hiding behind men like Richard Dawkins (in turn making themselves blind followers) and presenting 'Mommy I wet myself again' nonsense to defend their atheistic views and put down theistic views. Try reading 'There is a God' by Anthony Flew...he followed logic and rational arguments and went from Atheism to Theism.


TNA

Robby Coker
07-08-2008, 11:13 PM
Anti-Psychotic medications or Anti-Convulsants (particularly ones that work on the Temporal Lobes)

Examples:
Abilify
Geodon
Risperdal
Topamax
Trileptal


For example, if a person is a devout Fundamentalist Christian, and he takes one of these drugs but he remains a theist, then he may become a Secular Christian (which I am).

Organized institutionalized religions were built off of delusions, which were held & shared by the common people of a given culture from where it originated. This includes the point when Christianity was made into an organized religion in 325 A.D. by Constantine and Fundamentalist Christianity in the 20th century with its heresy of Bible Literalism. They created God (their own image of) with their brains.

One problem that Fundamentalists have is claiming that they have monopoly on God & Truth, and they try to push their beliefs on others via Bible Thumping. By doing this, they are displaying a major manic symptom which is grandiosity. These fanatics are seemingly mentally ill.

Delusions & Grandiosity often occur in Schizophrenia, Schizo-Affective, and the Manic Phase of Bipolar. The drugs I listed are indicated for these disorders (with the last two being used mainly for Bipolar).

This is what one former Fundamentalist Christain says about the Fundamentalist Christian's warped and distorted view of reality:
their view of reality becomes completely WARPED! Literally. They only see the world in terms of God and Satan, light and darkness, sin and righteousness, the saved and the unsaved, etc. I still can’t believe how warped my view of reality was when I was a Christian fundamentalist.

StartTheMachine
07-09-2008, 12:17 AM
What is wrong with you. You need to leave people alone and let them believe in their own beliefs. Stop trying to convert people.

I don't know if you noticed, but I didn't create this thread, then go through and argue with everyone who posted a response. Thanks for being a dick, though.


Actually that's an all to common remark from an atheist - and is a huge part of the problem. Atheists can be and are equally dogmatic as Theists and many Theists, including myself would actually like to see a logical, rational argument put forth from Atheists. Why??? Because we are logical and rational beings. So far all we get is jokes, ad hom attacks, emotionalism, straw man arguments, logical fallacies and nonsense. I see very little intelligence, logic, rationalism and 'evidence' in Atheism. (especially here at this website.) I do see manlets hiding behind men like Richard Dawkins (in turn making themselves blind followers) and presenting 'Mommy I wet myself again' nonsense to defend their atheistic views and put down theistic views. Try reading 'There is a God' by Anthony Flew...he followed logic and rational arguments and went from Atheism to Theism.


TNA

You just did nearly everything you condemned atheists for doing.


Anti-Psychotic medications or Anti-Convulsants (particularly ones that work on the Temporal Lobes)

Examples:
Abilify
Geodon
Risperdal
Topamax
Trileptal


For example, if a person is a devout Fundamentalist Christian, and he takes one of these drugs but he remains a theist, then he may become a Secular Christian (which I am).

Organized institutionalized religions were built off of delusions, which were held & shared by the common people of a given culture from where it originated. This includes the point when Christianity was made into an organized religion in 325 A.D. by Constantine and Fundamentalist Christianity in the 20th century with its heresy of Bible Literalism. They created God (their own image of) with their brains.

One problem that Fundamentalists have is claiming that they have monopoly on God & Truth, and they try to push their beliefs on others via Bible Thumping. By doing this, they are displaying a major manic symptom which is grandiosity. These fanatics are seemingly mentally ill.

Delusions & Grandiosity often occur in Schizophrenia, Schizo-Affective, and the Manic Phase of Bipolar. The drugs I listed are indicated for these disorders (with the last two being used mainly for Bipolar).

This is what one former Fundamentalist Christain says about the Fundamentalist Christian's warped and distorted view of reality:
their view of reality becomes completely WARPED! Literally. They only see the world in terms of God and Satan, light and darkness, sin and righteousness, the saved and the unsaved, etc. I still can?t believe how warped my view of reality was when I was a Christian fundamentalist.


Best response by far, repped.

YuMadThough
07-09-2008, 12:38 AM
Honestly, even if I had undeniable proof that God didn't exist I would still live a very similar lifestyle, because I have found that I am happier when I obey the commandments, and my family is closer and more at peace as well. I'm a Mormon, and family is very important to us, and that focus on family makes our home life generally very good. I really believe that anyone that tried a Mormon lifestyle, even without a belief in God would find that they were happier and had a better family life.

Would you agree that god doesn't necessarily exist but instead is a belief system that is created within your own brain?

Mtguy8787
07-09-2008, 12:51 AM
Absolutely nothing. I understand and respect the atheist point of view, but nothing will deter me from the basic premise of God and creation.

When there is no I, what remains?


Just a thought....

The more eastern view of God is completely different from the view of God held by abrahamic religions. To most fundamentalist christians/muslims, a person with a Buddhist type approach -- which you seem to have -- would be close to the realm of atheism to most of the "theists" on here.


~~~~~~~


I've said this many times, but I'll say it again.

Pure "religion" and pure science both lead to the same place.
True religion and true science are two sides of one coin.
These two things do not conflict.


Current mainstream religion and current mainstream science are a completely different story.

ALL major mainstream religions have been grossly perverted.

The spirit of science has also been perverted in much of the same way, although every who follows the religion of materialistic science will deny this vehemently.


Do the problems and perversion you see with religion and science represent a problem with these approaches? Or do they represent a problem with the human psyche?