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iamlegend
04-11-2008, 08:02 AM
The only person able to keep Jordon under twenty in scoring was Dean Smith/Roy Williams.



If Kobe wins the championship this year. Wins MVP. Will he be considered better?

PhoenixBuff
04-11-2008, 08:03 AM
Jordan

end thread

natespeer
04-11-2008, 08:15 AM
The only person able to keep Jordon under twenty in scoring was Dean Smith/Roy Williams.



If Kobe wins the championship this year. Wins MVP. Will he be considered better?

nope

sammy21
04-11-2008, 08:36 AM
this thread fails

Scorpion613
04-11-2008, 09:13 AM
OP obviously does not watch any basketball...

JamesGatz83
04-11-2008, 09:29 AM
Kobe has to win at least three more titles before we can even have this discussion. He needs to prove he can win a championship without Shaq. Although I will grant you that Jordan never won a title without Pippen and Rodman/Horace Grant.

PHX04
04-11-2008, 09:30 AM
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d114/Niggz42/6f1c2b93.jpg

BPP
04-11-2008, 09:31 AM
michael > kobe

/thread

sammy21
04-11-2008, 09:31 AM
9-time All-defensive first team & a Defensive Player of the Year award

jkeithc82
04-11-2008, 09:38 AM
Kobe has to win at least three more titles before we can even have this discussion. He needs to prove he can win a championship without Shaq. Although I will grant you that Jordan never won a title without Pippen and Rodman/Horace Grant.

Further to this, he has to win a title when he is "the guy."

During the Laker championship years, Shaq was the main force that drove that team. Kobe played "support" so to speak as Pippen and Rodman/Grant did with Jordan. Kobe's obviously a better player than Pippen and the others, but the offense during those Laker title years ran through Shaq.

sohard88
04-11-2008, 09:43 AM
Jordan, but its not by as big of a margin that everyone acts like it is.

JamesGatz83
04-11-2008, 09:45 AM
Further to this, he has to win a title when he is "the guy."

During the Laker championship years, Shaq was the main force that drove that team. Kobe played "support" so to speak as Pippen and Rodman/Grant did with Jordan. Kobe's obviously a better player than Pippen and the others, but the offense during those Laker title years ran through Shaq.

Agreed. And since there isn't anyone in the NBA -- aside from LeBron -- that's even comparable to Kobe, it's pretty much guaranteed that he'll be "the guy" if he wins another title.


Jordan, but its not by as big of a margin that everyone acts like it is.

You're right. A lot of people forget that Jordan didn't win his first title 'til he was 28. Kobe is still only 29.

burg
04-11-2008, 10:07 AM
MJ every time

lbarber4
04-11-2008, 10:09 AM
Micheal Jordan defeated huge aliens and played with Bugs Bunny?

C'mon now, Micheal>Kobe!

Although, I am a fan of Kobe Bryant and have always been...

R.I.P. Penny Hardaway... (old, uninjured penny hardaway)

lacey23
04-11-2008, 10:29 AM
MJ's the best SG ever, Kobe's the 2nd best SG ever already. Kobe still has a ways to go to catch Jordon.

Thy_Kingdom
04-11-2008, 10:45 AM
Biggest Kobe fan here, saying MJ is better. MJ faced better competition imo, he didn't score 80+ pnts against the Raptors like Kobe did. He didn't need to yet was still considered great. Of course, Kobe will go down as one of the best players of all time if he keeps up this pace.

GTfreak
04-11-2008, 10:52 AM
kobe

Bulldog0520
04-11-2008, 11:42 AM
lol...that'd be his first MVP.

Then of course he should try matching MJ's 6 NBA Championship MVP awards...

Dumb question.

Robbyrh10
04-11-2008, 01:37 PM
Jordan

end thread

:D Yes please

BigDreams21
04-11-2008, 02:11 PM
lol...that'd be his first MVP.

Then of course he should try matching MJ's 6 NBA Championship MVP awards...

Dumb question.
Well said.

*DH*
04-11-2008, 02:17 PM
Michael Jordan > everybody

All basketball fans should know this.

johnny87
04-11-2008, 02:17 PM
Biggest Kobe fan here, saying MJ is better. MJ faced better competition imo, he didn't score 80+ pnts against the Raptors like Kobe did. He didn't need to yet was still considered great. Of course, Kobe will go down as one of the best players of all time if he keeps up this pace.


I dont know. The competition in the west is pretty tough. Im sure we will look back 10 years from now and see how many HOF'ers are actually playin and be suprised.

Jordan was better. But i also think the biggest difference between the two is the media perception. MJ was a media favorite and the refs would also give him every single possible call in the world. While Kobe is just scorned by everyone outside of LA.

SomeoneStopMe
04-11-2008, 02:21 PM
jordan is the best player ever in basketball, ever. if kobe somehow gets 6 rings before he retires in the same dominating fashion jordan did, then maybe you start this discussion.

ohHai
04-11-2008, 02:41 PM
I've said this time and time again. No one has done what Jordan has done for the game. I don't care if Kobe gets 50 championships he still won't be the player Jordan was. Kobe exits b/c of Jordan.

Heartless
04-11-2008, 02:58 PM
Kobe

/thread

user8073964251
04-11-2008, 03:16 PM
Jordan, but its not by as big of a margin that everyone acts like it is.

Your right, it's bigger. MJ was all about winning. He played with all kinds of styles, from Steve Kerr to Dennis Rodman. He not only made those teams gel, but he was as much of a leader to the team on both ends of the floor as anyone ever.


jordan is the best player ever in basketball, ever. if kobe somehow gets 6 rings before he retires in the same dominating fashion jordan did, then maybe you start this discussion.

I don't even think that would matter. Kobe ruined his chances when he wanted to be "the man" by getting rid of Shaq. His chemistry and cohesiveness are questionable at best. Jordan didn't need to get rid of anyone to be the man, he was always the man.

Scorpion613
04-11-2008, 03:35 PM
Kobe > MJ because he can jump over Aston Martins.

johnny87
04-11-2008, 03:36 PM
Kobe > MJ because he can jump over Aston Martins.

Kobes wife is also much hotter then MJ's ex wife. That gives him bonus points in my book.

Scorpion613
04-11-2008, 03:42 PM
Kobes wife is also much hotter then MJ's ex wife. That gives him bonus points in my book.

and MJ is divorced, meanwhile, Kobe cheats on his wife with a white girl and they're still together :D

lacey23
04-11-2008, 03:58 PM
Your right, it's bigger. MJ was all about winning. He played with all kinds of styles, from Steve Kerr to Dennis Rodman. He not only made those teams gel, but he was as much of a leader to the team on both ends of the floor as anyone ever.



I don't even think that would matter. Kobe ruined his chances when he wanted to be "the man" by getting rid of Shaq. His chemistry and cohesiveness are questionable at best. Jordan didn't need to get rid of anyone to be the man, he was always the man.

I'm suprised how much blame gets put on Kobe for this. Kobe didn't get rid of Shaq. Shaq is one of the biggest douchebags in the league, he's bashed everybody he's ever played with in the media. MJ didn't get along with teamates great either, I gaurantee if a dominant personality like Shaq was on the same team as MJ they'd butt heads.

I don't see how his chemsitry is questionable at best either. He might not of passed much when he had Smush Parker, Kwame Brown, and Luke Walton in the starting lineup but he's won anytime he had a decent line-up

kooldude
04-11-2008, 04:24 PM
Biggest Kobe fan here, saying MJ is better. MJ faced better competition imo, he didn't score 80+ pnts against the Raptors like Kobe did. He didn't need to yet was still considered great. Of course, Kobe will go down as one of the best players of all time if he keeps up this pace.

Jordan didn't face better competition. He played in an era of great bigmen but less competition at the SG position. Kobe faced players like Tmac, Vince Carter, Paul Pierce (when he used to play SG), AI, Arenas, and Dwade to name a few. These are some of the most efficient players in the history of the game. Jordan never had go against that kind of talent.

kooldude
04-11-2008, 04:27 PM
Further to this, he has to win a title when he is "the guy."

During the Laker championship years, Shaq was the main force that drove that team. Kobe played "support" so to speak as Pippen and Rodman/Grant did with Jordan. Kobe's obviously a better player than Pippen and the others, but the offense during those Laker title years ran through Shaq.

How can you say that Kobe is Shaq's Pippen. Pippen was Jordan's sidekick and the 2nd option on the title teams. Kobe was Shaq's partner and 1b option. Shaq carried the Lakers for 3 quarters and Kobe was the closer. (largely due to Shaq's occasional foul trouble and poor FT shooting) When has Pippen asked to be the closer for the Bulls?

soleus
04-11-2008, 05:01 PM
Kobe has to quit the game for 18 months and come back and lead the Lakers to a threepeat.

sohard88
04-11-2008, 05:38 PM
Kobe has to quit the game for 18 months and come back and lead the Lakers to a threepeat.

does he need to play minor league baseball 2?

sammy21
04-11-2008, 05:39 PM
does he need to play minor league baseball 2?

yes.

And open up his own restaurant.

Greg1983
04-11-2008, 05:53 PM
I've said this time and time again. No one has done what Jordan has done for the game. I don't care if Kobe gets 50 championships he still won't be the player Jordan was. Kobe exits b/c of Jordan.

This kind of talk doesn't belong in this or any thread. Right there you're closing yourself off to the possibility that anyone could ever be better than MJ as though you can see the future. There's no way to be impartial with that kind of attitude. I'm sure people said the same **** about Howe before Gretzky came along, just like they say it about Gretzky now.

If Kobe retired today then no, his career would not be comparable to MJs. Let's let him finish up first. He has a very good chance of surpassing him, just like Lebron has a very good chance at surpassing both of them.

sammy21
04-11-2008, 06:00 PM
This kind of talk doesn't belong in this or any thread. Right there you're closing yourself off to the possibility that anyone could ever be better than MJ as though you can see the future. There's no way to be impartial with that kind of attitude. I'm sure people said the same **** about Howe before Gretzky came along, just like they say it about Gretzky now.

If Kobe retired today then no, his career would not be comparable to MJs. Let's let him finish up first. He has a very good chance of surpassing him, just like Lebron has a very good chance at surpassing both of them.

Look at guys like Babe Ruth and Jim Brown/ Walter Payton...there have been guys who "surpassed" them but haven't really surpassed them...if that makes sense. There records have been broken and there are players better than them...but people still consider them the all-time grets just for what they did to the game, MJ will be one of those guys.

tchalldaway
04-11-2008, 06:04 PM
Dennis Rodman>Kobe Bryant.
YA RLY CMON.

Greg1983
04-11-2008, 06:06 PM
Look at guys like Babe Ruth and Jim Brown/ Walter Payton...there have been guys who "surpassed" them but haven't really surpassed them...if that makes sense. There records have been broken and there are players better than them...but people still consider them the all-time grets just for what they did to the game, MJ will be one of those guys.

Of course he'll always be an all time great. He was THE man of his era. But someone will surpass him at some point. And, in turn, someone will surpass them.

Alec Trevelyan
04-11-2008, 06:12 PM
michael > kobe

/thread

agreed

Alec Trevelyan
04-11-2008, 06:14 PM
Dennis Rodman>Kobe Bryant.
YA RLY CMON.

I recall way back that they said Rodman had some of the fastest jumping reflexes ever seen in the NBA...he could jump for a rebound numerous times faster then anyone.

sillz100
04-11-2008, 06:14 PM
michael > kobe

/thread

looks like a troll, neg him and ban him!

Gmoney23
04-11-2008, 06:36 PM
Look at guys like Babe Ruth and Jim Brown/ Walter Payton...there have been guys who "surpassed" them but haven't really surpassed them...if that makes sense. There records have been broken and there are players better than them...but people still consider them the all-time grets just for what they did to the game, MJ will be one of those guys.


I dont think those players have been surpassed at all, and i meen by players better then them.

Ruth is still arguably the greatest with Ted Williams, Willie Mays, and Barry Bonds in the argument (Bonds going by stats, personally I dont think he counts). People had amazing years in the 90's but i you compare their career stats to Ruth they still dont compare. IMO, Williams was the greatest hitter of all time, he missed time going to 2 Wars both in his prime. Imagine the stats he would have put up those years he would have had close to 700 homeruns and may well have hit .400 a couple other times.

Jim Brown still dominated the game like none other. Payton has only been surpassed by Smith on the All Time rushing list and Payton was clearly a better all around player. Payton was probably the greatest ever when you take into count his ability to run every type of style, receive, was also an amazing blocker, plus he could throw the pigskin too. Payton was Tomlinson but more powerful and just as complete of a player.

Jordan is definitely better then Kobe. But I will admit Kobe isnt as far off as some would think. Kobe is a better 3 point shooter and he is actually a little more fundamentally sound then Jordan. Kobe has maybe the best left hand in basketball history. Jordan was very good with both hands and would do alot of post moves both ways but Kobe can shoot both ways. And I would say Kobe has been stronger most of his career. Jordan didnt really bulk up till after his first retirement. Jordan and Kobe are close on alot of other things but defensively, jumping, speed, quickness, passing, fadeaway, midrange game, and postup I would all give to Jordan with some being very close liek the fadeaway. Strength, Fundamentals, and 3 Pt shooting I would give to Kobe.

Thats breaking down their games then when you break down their impact its still Jordan by a longshot but Kobe has time to make it close. Jordan 6 MVP's to Kobe's 0, 6 Finals MVP's to Kobe's 0. Kobe missed the playoffs in his prime with the Lakers with crappy but not terrible talent around him. Jordan never missed the playoffs even when he was a young player and had even worse talent then Kobe had around him. Jordan did miss the playoffs when he was with the Wizards and 40 years old. Also the biggest difference is Pippen and Rodman were good but Im not so sure if you replace Jordan with Kobe that team 3 peats. If you put Jordan with Shaq the years they 3 peated they would surely win the title all those years.

sammy21
04-11-2008, 06:43 PM
Let's also not forget MJ is pretty much the only player to lead a dynasty without having a big man...no matter what Kobe needs a big man to win a title (Shaq, now Gasol/Bynum). The way MJ was able to play the post is incredible...Kobe will never touch that.

tchalldaway
04-11-2008, 06:54 PM
John Stockton>Deron Williams
Michael Jordan>Kobe Bryant
Karl Malone>Carlos Boozer
Clyde Drexler>Tmac

Thread fails.

kooldude
04-11-2008, 07:47 PM
Jordan is definitely better then Kobe. But I will admit Kobe isnt as far off as some would think. Kobe is a better 3 point shooter and he is actually a little more fundamentally sound then Jordan. Kobe has maybe the best left hand in basketball history. Jordan was very good with both hands and would do alot of post moves both ways but Kobe can shoot both ways. And I would say Kobe has been stronger most of his career. Jordan didnt really bulk up till after his first retirement. Jordan and Kobe are close on alot of other things but defensively, jumping, speed, quickness, passing, fadeaway, midrange game, and postup I would all give to Jordan with some being very close liek the fadeaway. Strength, Fundamentals, and 3 Pt shooting I would give to Kobe.

I agree with Jordan being physically superior to Kobe, but by only a slight edge. Jordan was the gold standard of athleticism for SG until a guy by the name of Vince Carter joins the league. But I believe Jordan was also stronger than Kobe, even in his earlier years; players have commented on how much stronger Jordan was, than the way he looked, which was pretty shredded.


Thats breaking down their games then when you break down their impact its still Jordan by a longshot but Kobe has time to make it close. Jordan 6 MVP's to Kobe's 0, 6 Finals MVP's to Kobe's 0. Kobe missed the playoffs in his prime with the Lakers with crappy but not terrible talent around him. Jordan never missed the playoffs even when he was a young player and had even worse talent then Kobe had around him. Jordan did miss the playoffs when he was with the Wizards and 40 years old. Also the biggest difference is Pippen and Rodman were good but Im not so sure if you replace Jordan with Kobe that team 3 peats. If you put Jordan with Shaq the years they 3 peated they would surely win the title all those years.

Kobe was playing injured during the '05 season when the Lakers missed the playoffs. Kobe only played 66 games because of injuries. Most of that team is new, either from trades or free agency, in addition to a new coach. Do you expect a mediocre to bad team with their 1st option missing 20% of the games, to contend in a much tougher conference at the time?

Jordan didn't miss the playoffs in his earlier years because there was only 11 teams in the Eastern Conference then. So basically, if the Bull are better than 3 teams out of 11, they're in the playoffs; that's why the Bulls with 30 wins in '86, can make the playoffs.

If you repeat Jordan with Kobe, the Bulls might win 4 titles out of 6. If it was Jordan + Shaq starting at 2000, they would probably win 5 titles in a row.

Scorpion613
04-11-2008, 07:54 PM
Kobe missed the playoffs in his prime with the Lakers with crappy but not terrible talent around him.

this drives me crazy...

Can you honestly tell me that Smush Parker, Luke Walton, and Kwame Brown are not considered terrible?

Parker was waived from the MIAMI HEAT. Kwame gets like 3 minutes a game on the GRIZZLIES, and Luke is one of the most inconsistant players in the game. Kwame and Smush don't deserve to play in the D League.

bizmark007
04-11-2008, 07:55 PM
MJ owned everyone before he even won his first championship. he accomplished alot before the 90-91 season. he went against larry bird and magic johnson. he owns basketball,you could tell he was the greatest by just seeing him shoot and dribble.

NJLife
04-11-2008, 09:12 PM
maybe if you put Kobe+shaq against just MJ.. oh nm MJ still > than them both.


Game was different back then, but Shaq and Kobe can't do it without serious help. Watching Jordan do it, he literally raised everyone's game. Every night. Kobe has those moments but not EVERY NIGHT.

I'm biased though, I actually watched basketball when Jordan played. now less often.

BEhave
04-11-2008, 09:22 PM
no.

Gmoney23
04-11-2008, 09:49 PM
this drives me crazy...

Can you honestly tell me that Smush Parker, Luke Walton, and Kwame Brown are not considered terrible?

Parker was waived from the MIAMI HEAT. Kwame gets like 3 minutes a game on the GRIZZLIES, and Luke is one of the most inconsistant players in the game. Kwame and Smush don't deserve to play in the D League.

Didnt they have Lamar Odom who would be better then anybody the Bulls had around MJ his first few years? Kobe was injured that year but Jordan got injured his second year and the Bulls were heading for a great lottery pick. The Bulls actually wanted to sit MJ out the rest of the season to get a great pick. Jordan insisted on playing and ended up getting the team in the playoffs. Then he put up 63 points and single handedly had the Bulls competing with an all time great celtics team that would go on to win the title that year.

Gmoney23
04-11-2008, 09:53 PM
Also something I have heard a few coaches say was that if Jordan was playing now a days with the defensive rules he literally would have been unguardable. I'm going to look for the quotes but now a days guys have to play defense much softer and much less grabbing to slow players down happens now a days.

Gmoney23
04-11-2008, 09:56 PM
http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:luFKJ0RYL6EJ:myespn.go.com/blogs/truehoop/0-16-26/Joe-Dumars--Michael-Jordan-Unguardable-with-Current-NBA-Rules.html+michael+jordan+rule+change+unguardable&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us

Found the quote in the above link.

Alltime great defender Joe Dumars on Jordan -

Roland Lazenby talked to Dumars about that series, and Dumars admits that the way perimeter defense is being called these days, Jordan would not have been guardable at all (and presumably would have won the title in 1990, much as Dwyane Wade did in 2006).

That quote is coming from a guy who had to guard Jordan.

JJP11
04-11-2008, 10:00 PM
Michael Jordan is the most successful athlete in history.

7~911
04-11-2008, 10:10 PM
kobe is great but come on..nobody will ever be Jordan, stop it already.

Scorpion613
04-11-2008, 10:13 PM
Didnt they have Lamar Odom who would be better then anybody the Bulls had around MJ his first few years? Kobe was injured that year but Jordan got injured his second year and the Bulls were heading for a great lottery pick. The Bulls actually wanted to sit MJ out the rest of the season to get a great pick. Jordan insisted on playing and ended up getting the team in the playoffs. Then he put up 63 points and single handedly had the Bulls competing with an all time great celtics team that would go on to win the title that year.

Lamar Odom was nothing compared to what he is now. So you're saying that because of Odom they should have been a contender? You can't expect any player to lead his team anywhere after reshaping an entire team, a team that Kobe was accustomed to playing on for almost 10 years, completely changed its cast and coach. They had less than 2 months to play together during the summer, what can you expect?

GTfreak
04-11-2008, 10:29 PM
lamar odom is good when hes on but hes very inconsistent

black sabbath
04-11-2008, 10:39 PM
Michael Jordan is the most successful athlete in history.

Tiger Woods?

Ajklsdflkjsdf
04-11-2008, 10:42 PM
Tiger Woods?

golf isnt a sport

otrebmu
04-11-2008, 10:42 PM
jordan is god

wtf kind of thread is this. 0 stars

Gmoney23
04-11-2008, 10:42 PM
Lamar Odom was nothing compared to what he is now. So you're saying that because of Odom they should have been a contender? You can't expect any player to lead his team anywhere after reshaping an entire team, a team that Kobe was accustomed to playing on for almost 10 years, completely changed its cast and coach. They had less than 2 months to play together during the summer, what can you expect?

Oh no not contender. But I bet Jordan gets that team in the playoffs.

Scorpion613
04-11-2008, 10:48 PM
Oh no not contender. But I bet Jordan gets that team in the playoffs.

But, jordan plays with his team for over a year. Kobe goes on a team with a completely reshaped starting cast, where only 2-3 players from the previous year stayed on the team. The year previous to that, the Lakers made it to the finals, which meant they played with Shaq until June. It wasn't until LATE July that the Shaq trade was done. Which gave the team August, and September to practice for the season. There's a big difference between 2 months of practice and a year +.

My argument is NOT that Kobe is on Jordan's level, we already know that no one will ever be on Jordan's level. But, I'm saying that if Kobe had a better cast,a nd more playing time among them, he would have been in better shape and would have made the playoffs.

Oneandonlysunkist
04-11-2008, 10:50 PM
I think a lot of the younger people (including me) that post "MJ > Kobe" have biased opinions.

Heres Why:
Because we did not grow up watching MJ play except for his final years. We have mainly seen highlights which show his good games. Obviously I'm not saying MJ isnt great, he is. Anyone get my point?

undertowg
04-12-2008, 12:09 AM
I think Kobe is the most athletic player ever. He's the 2nd greatest tho. Jordan was overall better just b/c of the way he made ever one else around him better. He was the most clutch player ever also. You can not truthfully say that if the game were in the final moments you'd rather have it in Kobe's hands over Jordan.

JJP11
04-12-2008, 08:17 AM
Tiger Woods?

nope.. MJ

lacey23
04-12-2008, 08:24 AM
Michael Jordan is the most successful athlete in history.

Michael Schumacher

otrebmu
04-12-2008, 08:57 AM
schumi ftw

Ejjw18
04-12-2008, 09:28 AM
How dare you even ask this question.

Thy_Kingdom
04-14-2008, 04:57 PM
Jordan didn't face better competition. He played in an era of great bigmen but less competition at the SG position. Kobe faced players like Tmac, Vince Carter, Paul Pierce (when he used to play SG), AI, Arenas, and Dwade to name a few. These are some of the most efficient players in the history of the game. Jordan never had go against that kind of talent.
With the exception of AI, all the players you list are some of the most injury prone. This coming from a huge Tmac fan. Jordan is a better player, but not by much. Kobe is definitely something else & deserves respect on the court.

Michael Schumacher
No.

lacey23
04-14-2008, 05:12 PM
No.

Yes.

rampagefc77
04-14-2008, 05:14 PM
im not sure whats greater, kobes skills or his ego...

rampagefc77
04-14-2008, 05:17 PM
But, jordan plays with his team for over a year. Kobe goes on a team with a completely reshaped starting cast, where only 2-3 players from the previous year stayed on the team. The year previous to that, the Lakers made it to the finals, which meant they played with Shaq until June. It wasn't until LATE July that the Shaq trade was done. Which gave the team August, and September to practice for the season. There's a big difference between 2 months of practice and a year +.

My argument is NOT that Kobe is on Jordan's level, we already know that no one will ever be on Jordan's level. But, I'm saying that if Kobe had a better cast,a nd more playing time among them, he would have been in better shape and would have made the playoffs.

whose fault is it that the lakers were in such turmoil throughout the years? This last offseason? Im pretty sure a big part of it starts with a K.... and ends with an obe.

kooldude
04-14-2008, 05:40 PM
whose fault is it that the lakers were in such turmoil throughout the years? This last offseason? Im pretty sure a big part of it starts with a K.... and ends with an obe.

who cares about the offseason? It's all about results and the Lakers produced a contender 3 years later, a complete rebuilding process, a great achievement for any organization.

kooldude
04-14-2008, 05:44 PM
With the exception of AI, all the players you list are some of the most injury prone. This coming from a huge Tmac fan. Jordan is a better player, but not by much. Kobe is definitely something else & deserves respect on the court.



What does injuries have to do with this? Dwade and Arenas had one major injury, Jordan had one in his second year too, who cares? I'm sure Jordan's competition were injured from time to time too. And yes, Jordan > Kobe, goes without saying. This thread is odd.

kooldude
04-14-2008, 05:48 PM
I think Kobe is the most athletic player ever. He's the 2nd greatest tho. Jordan was overall better just b/c of the way he made ever one else around him better. He was the most clutch player ever also. You can not truthfully say that if the game were in the final moments you'd rather have it in Kobe's hands over Jordan.

I could name 20 guys more athletic than Kobe, off the top of my head. One of them, being Jordan.

iamlegend
04-14-2008, 07:25 PM
Michael Jordan is the most successful athlete in history.



Ever hear of Tiger Woods?

GTfreak
04-14-2008, 07:30 PM
I could name 20 guys more athletic than Kobe, off the top of my head. One of them, being Jordan.

please go on

Thy_Kingdom
04-15-2008, 06:23 AM
Yes.
No.

jkeithc82
04-15-2008, 06:25 AM
Michael Schumacher

He said athlete. ;)

soleus
04-15-2008, 06:30 AM
Ever hear of Tiger Woods?

Ever hear of Shawn Kemp....or Harold Miner?

jkeithc82
04-15-2008, 06:31 AM
Ever hear of Shawn Kemp....or Harold Miner?

Shawn Kemp actually had a decent career with Seattle.

niospecv
04-15-2008, 06:41 AM
You're right. A lot of people forget that Jordan didn't win his first title 'til he was 28. Kobe is still only 29.

Kobe came out of high school while Jordan didn't. Kobe has had more time yet still can't do it without Shaq.

Thy_Kingdom
04-15-2008, 06:42 AM
He said athlete. ;)
Exactly. :D

Kemp was awesome back in the day, amazing power dunks.

hwpnow
04-15-2008, 07:29 AM
Kobe > MJ because he can jump over Aston Martins.

He wasn't the first to jump over a car. This is 06' and the guy dunked it

YUStpyH9SvU

rustyhook
04-15-2008, 07:44 AM
Ever hear of Tiger Woods?

tiger woods

and by teh time hes finished roger federer are the most dominant athletes in sports

its hard to say michael jordan when a lot depends on other players around him as its a team game

you could argue , pele (soccer0 is teh best athlete of all time

lacey23
04-15-2008, 07:56 AM
No.


He said athlete. ;)

Racing = a sport.
Race car drivers=atheletes.

Schumacher has won more champiionships then Jordan. He's made more money then Jordan. Seems more succesful to me.

jkeithc82
04-15-2008, 08:04 AM
Racing = a sport.
Race car drivers=atheletes.


Ok fair enough, we'll use your logic.

I think the great Chess player Bobby Fisher is a more dominant athlete then both of them. :cool:

mikecart1
04-15-2008, 08:07 AM
Micheal Jordan defeated huge aliens and played with Bugs Bunny?

C'mon now, Micheal>Kobe!

Although, I am a fan of Kobe Bryant and have always been...

R.I.P. Penny Hardaway... (old, uninjured penny hardaway)

Please spell his and my name right. Thank you.

lacey23
04-15-2008, 08:08 AM
Ok fair enough, we'll use your logic.

I think the great Chess player Bobby Fisher is a more dominant athlete then both of them. :cool:

chess is a game. Motorsports are a sport.

jkeithc82
04-15-2008, 08:10 AM
chess is a game. Motorsports are a sport.

How cute, they even have "sports" in the title just in case you were unsure. :D

lacey23
04-15-2008, 08:10 AM
How cute, they even have "sports" in the title just in case you were unsure. :D

lol

Thy_Kingdom
04-15-2008, 08:12 AM
How cute, they even have "sports" in the title just in case you were unsure. :D
Hahahahah.

Those vehicles are extremely fast athletes!

lacey23
04-15-2008, 08:57 AM
Hahahahah.

Those vehicles are extremely fast athletes!

Yeah those drivers hitting 4-5 g's in the corners, hitting 220mph on straights, and averaging 150mph for 2 hours straight while manouvering their car around a circut are doing nothing amirite?

jkeithc82
04-15-2008, 09:08 AM
Yeah those drivers hitting 4-5 g's in the corners, hitting 220mph on straights, and averaging 150mph for 2 hours straight while manouvering their car around a circut are doing nothing amirite?

I read about one driver who took a turn too sharp. Tommy John surgery the next day.

MaskedManiac
04-15-2008, 09:14 AM
Kobe Couldn't Wipe Mj's Ass.

The
Maniac.

GTfreak
04-15-2008, 10:11 AM
Kobe Couldn't Wipe Mj's Ass.

The
Maniac.

why would anyone wanna whipe mj's ass, thats just nasty

JayKid
04-15-2008, 11:49 AM
Kobe is still young. End of thread. He has a entire career ahead of him to continue to shine. He keeps the pace up, he could be known as better than Michael. He is sure as hell close as it stands.

GTfreak
04-15-2008, 12:06 PM
Kobe is still young. End of thread. He has a entire career ahead of him to continue to shine. He keeps the pace up, he could be known as better than Michael. He is sure as hell close as it stands.

+12345

iamlegend
04-15-2008, 12:21 PM
this thread fails



good call

rampagefc77
04-15-2008, 12:46 PM
Yeah those drivers hitting 4-5 g's in the corners, hitting 220mph on straights, and averaging 150mph for 2 hours straight while manouvering their car around a circut are doing nothing amirite?


are astranauts athletes? fighter pilots? They surely handle more g's and higher speeds.... Some pilots are even combat oriented. Lets not forget regular pilots for commercial airlines. How about truckdrivers? Shifting through 15+ gears while maneuvering through traffic.

get my point by now?

rampagefc77
04-15-2008, 12:47 PM
why would anyone wanna whipe mj's ass, thats just nasty

"MJ!! I'm wearing your underwear!!"

Thy_Kingdom
04-15-2008, 05:09 PM
are astranauts athletes? fighter pilots? They surely handle more g's and higher speeds.... Some pilots are even combat oriented. Lets not forget regular pilots for commercial airlines. How about truckdrivers? Shifting through 15+ gears while maneuvering through traffic.

get my point by now?
OWNED.

lacey23
04-15-2008, 05:36 PM
are astranauts athletes? fighter pilots? They surely handle more g's and higher speeds.... Some pilots are even combat oriented. Lets not forget regular pilots for commercial airlines. How about truckdrivers? Shifting through 15+ gears while maneuvering through traffic.

get my point by now?

Rofl what a terrible point. The dude implied that the cars do all the work in competiton, and that's not the case at all. None of those are sports, or any form of competition.....racing is. Unless Sol_Krym decided to change the definition of the words "sport", and "athelete" and I am unaware.

lacey23
04-15-2008, 05:37 PM
OWNED.

Yeah OWNED.


Tiger says Schumacher is world's best athlete...............F1 racing "is the most globally watched sport and the pressure he has to deal with," Woods said, "it's been truly phenomenal to see him succeed at the level he has for so many years."

http://sports.espn.go.com/golf/news/story?id=2585177&campaign=rss&source=GOLFHeadlines



MICHAEL SCHUMACHER - first billionaire athlete / greatest racer ever
http://www.forbes.com/athletes2004/LIR5WRJ.html?passListId=2&passYear=2004&passListType=Person&uniqueId=5WRJ&datatype=Person


Automobile racing (also known as auto racing, motor racing, or car racing) is a sport involving racing automobiles. Auto racing began in 1895,[1] and is now one of the world's most popular sports
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auto_racing

kooldude
04-15-2008, 06:29 PM
please go on

Jordan, Lebron, Wilkins, Shaq, Hakeem, David Robinson, Wilt, Vince Carter, Shawn Kemp, David Thompson, Josh Smith, Jason Richardson, Tyrus Thomas, Dr. J, Dwight Howard, Andre Iguodala, Amare (pre-surgery), Stromile Swift, James White, Baron Davis, Nate Robinson


That's about 20 from recent memory, I'm sure I missed a few and/or the athletic freaks that didn't stay in the league for long because of a lack of skill. That being said, I still think Kobe is an elite athletic, just not as athletic as Jordan.

rampagefc77
04-15-2008, 08:08 PM
Rofl what a terrible point. The dude implied that the cars do all the work in competiton, and that's not the case at all. None of those are sports, or any form of competition.....racing is. Unless Sol_Krym decided to change the definition of the words "sport", and "athelete" and I am unaware.

actually, it went along perfectly with the quote i was responding to. Tell me the difference between a racercar driver and a truck driver then. Truck driver shifts through more gears, faces tough traffic, must meet a deadline on time so there is a time limit. Sounds like a sport to me? Start, finish, shifting gears, obstacles, ... yup all there.

a TERRIBLE point would be me calling u retard. I have a valid point that i would like to have considered.

lacey23
04-15-2008, 08:27 PM
actually, it went along perfectly with the quote i was responding to. Tell me the difference between a racercar driver and a truck driver then. Truck driver shifts through more gears, faces tough traffic, must meet a deadline on time so there is a time limit. Sounds like a sport to me? Start, finish, shifting gears, obstacles, ... yup all there.

a TERRIBLE point would be me calling u retard. I have a valid point that i would like to have considered.

Alright, fair enough. Sports are Physical activities goverened by a set of rules, and are engaged in competitivly.

1.Competition. Truckdriver-None. Formula1 Drivers-Yes.
2.Goverend by a set of rules. Truckdriver-Nope. Formula 1 driver-yes
3.Physical activity. Truck Driver-No. Formula1 driver-yes.

Do you think the definition posted above of a sport matches up with truck driving? Do you think the definition posted above matches up with formula 1 driving?

Your comparison imo is like saying a olympic sprinter is the same as a guy that walks to work.

Gmoney23
04-15-2008, 08:36 PM
Jordan, Lebron, Wilkins, Shaq, Hakeem, David Robinson, Wilt, Vince Carter, Shawn Kemp, David Thompson, Josh Smith, Jason Richardson, Tyrus Thomas, Dr. J, Dwight Howard, Andre Iguodala, Amare (pre-surgery), Stromile Swift, James White, Baron Davis, Nate Robinson


That's about 20 from recent memory, I'm sure I missed a few and/or the athletic freaks that didn't stay in the league for long because of a lack of skill. That being said, I still think Kobe is an elite athletic, just not as athletic as Jordan.


MJ is better then Kobe but Kobe is still a sick athlete. Only players I would put ahead of him athletically are Jordan, Vince, Josh Smith, Jason Richardson, and Dr. J.

Kobe is a better athlete then all those bigs you listed. Young Shaq and Howard are so impressive to be that athletic at that size. But, they still dont have the agility, speed, quickness, or jumping ability of Kobe.

kooldude
04-15-2008, 10:13 PM
MJ is better then Kobe but Kobe is still a sick athlete. Only players I would put ahead of him athletically are Jordan, Vince, Josh Smith, Jason Richardson, and Dr. J.

Kobe is a better athlete then all those bigs you listed. Young Shaq and Howard are so impressive to be that athletic at that size. But, they still dont have the agility, speed, quickness, or jumping ability of Kobe.

David Thompson had a 48inch vertical. Kobe is not even close to that.

James White is EASILY more athlete, have you seen his dunks? He was an Olympic high-jumper-caliber without any training!

Wilkins was just NASTY. as was Kemp.

The bigs listed, are freaks of nature. You can see a player of Kobe's athleticism in other leagues too. J.R. Smith, Andre I, Ariza, Tmac, these are all guys with similar athleticism as Kobe. Have you ever seen a big like Hakeem or David Robinson? Those guys were genetic freaks. Of course Kobe will be quicker, he's a guard.

Wilt was able to dunk on a 12feet rim. He also claimed and supported by his peers, that he can touch the top of the backboard. (which I doubt) No one has even done that.

Shaq is Shaq.

Swift and Thomas are real athletes, just lacking in skills.

jclarsen
04-15-2008, 10:19 PM
The only person able to keep Jordon under twenty in scoring was Dean Smith/Roy Williams.



If Kobe wins the championship this year. Wins MVP. Will he be considered better?

you are an idiot.

iamlegend
04-15-2008, 10:28 PM
you are an idiot.


Hey now, I think you need a....


Time-out!


Doh!

joeflex73
04-15-2008, 10:42 PM
Kobe wasnt even the leader of the 3 championship teams he was on. Hed have 0 titles without Shaq. If they win this year, he'll have led a team to a title once. Jordan did it 6 times. Bump this again in a few years and there may be an argument.

Xero Gio
04-15-2008, 10:46 PM
If you look at RAW TALENT... Kobe beats MJ, hands down. Any sports analyst will say that.

Much of Jordan's allure is what he did for the game media-wise. In the aftermath of the Showtime Lakers era and the feud with the Celtics, the NBA was going through rough stretches. Michael was there to inspire it. On the other hand, Kobe came into an already thriving league with established stars.

Kobe has a MUCH better left. If you look at a lot of game footage, Michael tended to switch to his right hand to release a shot at the rim even if his left would be less contested.

In terms of raw scoring ability, they are both clutch in terms of 4th quarter + OT heroics. Jordan has more clutch shots because of the longer career and how the offense was tailored towards him from the beginning of his career, but Kobe has more clutch free throws.

Michael is without question a better leader for the whole length of his career--but people fail to realize that as a teammate, he wasn't necessarily better. I still feel bad for Steve Kerr getting sucker-punched by Jordan at practice for not agreeing with him.

Kobe dealt with that Colorado incident, yes. But Jordan's first "retirement," for 18 months... wasn't a retirement. Read some articles, the man had a gambling problem and was suspended by the league with I guess you can call it... an honorable discharge due to the cover up.

Defensively, they both played impeccable defense. Steals are overrated--see CP3 for that--press defense and forced turnovers are what highlight both these guys.

Kobe's a ballhog, right? But when he isn't, he's too unselfish. Seems this year he did everything right, right? Take a look at what was written about Jordan pre-Pippen... and you'll see the same.

There's so much more to go along with it. MJ's career high of 69 was in a losing effort. Kobe's 81 was the most amazing offensive performance in history for several reasons: He's a guard--more perimeter shots. He's playing against people larger than he is when he drives and equal to him when he doesn't. Wilt was SIGNIFICANTLY taller than the rest of the opposition during the time he scored 100--plus there was NO offensive goaltending NOR 3-seconds in the key.

Ultimately, this is my point: The fact that this conversation is happening is good for the game. The fact that ONLY Kobe has ever been mentioned in such a conversation MEANS he deserves to be there. Who's better? Neither. MJ had the luxury of being the first among two equals is about all.

So appreciate what MJ did and what Kobe is doing.

EDIT: Oh and Joeflex--MJ didn't win anything without Pippen. The year he was out, the Bulls were still a top team in the league and were 1 game away from the finals. Think about it.

JayKid
04-15-2008, 11:48 PM
Kobe wasnt even the leader of the 3 championship teams he was on. Hed have 0 titles without Shaq. If they win this year, he'll have led a team to a title once. Jordan did it 6 times. Bump this again in a few years and there may be an argument.

And Jordan did have anyone around him? He did it by himself? Are you serious that you don't realize he had amazing talent surrounding him... if you cna't see that, you are a lost cause.

Pretty Boy Floyd
04-15-2008, 11:59 PM
The only person able to keep Jordon under twenty in scoring was Dean Smith/Roy Williams.



If Kobe wins the championship this year. Wins MVP. Will he be considered better?


Mike had 6 rings and 5 MVPs and a DPOY, as much as I love KB24 this isnt fair

sammy21
04-16-2008, 12:04 AM
Mike had 6 rings and 5 MVPs and a DPOY, as much as I love KB24 this isnt fair

and I repeat...
9-time All-defensive first team, the most ever

joeflex73
04-16-2008, 12:07 AM
I didnt say he didnt have any supporting cast, but Jordan was always the leader, the guy who the team was built around. The Lakers of earlier this decade were built around Shaq, not Kobe. What Kobe is doing now is damn good. But they havent won anything yet. Lets wait til hes put a few teams on his back and lead them to championships before we put him up there with a guy who did it 6 times.

Xero Gio
04-16-2008, 12:22 AM
Then by that estimation, Michael and Kobe both suck.

Go Bill Russell.

iron619
04-16-2008, 12:34 AM
This threads are amusing because there really isn't an accurate way to say for sure, especially since they are playing in a league that has set forth different standards of rules. Nowadays, it seems to me that pretty much any contact is a foul. Back in the 80's and early 90s, especially how the New York and Detroit defense teams played, there was still hand-checking and had more physical contact (without it being a foul). IMO, it's easier for guys in this era to get to the foul line, thus, skewing the PPG average and defense strategies a bit.

Any way you look at it, Kobe's 81 Point game was truly AMAZING, but also keep in mind it was done against one of the worst teams of that year (Toronto) in a regular season game. I AM NOT TAKING ANYTHING AWAY FROM BRYANT, just stating this fact. Jordan did score 63, but against one of the legendary teams and players in a tougher era and in a PLAYOFF GAME.

In all fairness, keep in mind that Bryant is still playing, and will probably play for many more years!

BASIC STATS PEOPLE ALREADY KNOW:


Kobe = 2 scoring titles
Mike = 10 scoring titles

Kobe = 3 Rings, with no Finals MVP
Mike = 6 Rings, with 6 Finals MVP

Kobe = 0 regular season MVP (Although he is long overdue on this)
Mike = 5 regular season MVP

Defensively, Mike has Kobe by a long shot. To Kobe's credit, he has vastly improved his defensive abilities in the past few years. We all know he has won DPOY, but other than that, check out some other facts about his Airness:

DEFENSE, MUCH?

* Most blocks by a guard (career)

* 893 by Michael Jordan

* Most blocks by a guard (season)

* 131 by Michael Jordan in 1987-88 season

* Most seasons with 200 steals and 100 blocks

* 2 by Michael Jordan

* Most consecutive seasons with 200 steals and 100 blocks

* 2 by Michael Jordan

* Only players to record 200 steals and 100 blocks (season)

* Michael Jordan in 1987-88 season
* Michael Jordan in 1988-89 season
* Hakeem Olajuwon in 1988-89 season
* Scottie Pippen in 1989-90 season

OLD MAN??

* Oldest player to score 50 or more points in a game

* Michael Jordan is the oldest player to score 50 or more points in a game, doing so with 51 points for the Washington Wizards vs. the New Orleans Hornets at the age of 38 years, 315 days.

* Oldest player to score 40 or more points in a game

* Michael Jordan is the oldest player and only 40-year-old player to score 40 or more points in a game, doing so with 43 points for the Washington Wizards vs. the New Jersey Nets at the age of 40 years, 4 days. However, he would go on to register 40 point games at older ages.
MIKE AS A NEWB :D :

* Only players averaging 20+ points 5+ assists and 5+ rebounds as a rookie

* Oscar Robertson
* Michael Jordan
* LeBron James


IN PLAYOFFS:


* Most points

* 5,987 by Michael Jordan

* Most points per game (min. 25 games)

* 33.45 by Michael Jordan (179 games)

* Most 50 point games

* 8 by Michael Jordan

* Most 40 point games

* 38 by Michael Jordan

* Most 30 point games

* 109 by Michael Jordan

* Most 20 point games

* 173 by Michael Jordan

* Most points per game in an NBA Championship series

* 41.0 by Michael Jordan, Chicago Bulls (vs. Phoenix Suns), 1993

There are tons of stats to look up about the players, but the most important ones are the ones in Playoff and Finals.

BOTTOM LINE:
Let's just appreciate how each player stands out in his time, respect their game and their talent, and enjoy it before they retire. Kobe will pass the torch so to speak, to Lebron in the near future.

iron619
04-16-2008, 12:35 AM
and I repeat...
9-time All-defensive first team, the most ever
Oh yeah, Gary Payton (aka the Glove) is a 9 time first teamer also.

Xero Gio
04-16-2008, 01:04 AM
One must not forget that Wilt's 100 point game was against a horrible Knicks team, also...

iron619
04-16-2008, 01:10 AM
One must not forget that Wilt's 100 point game was against a horrible Knicks team, also...
lol, here we go :rolleyes: :)

chuckd263
04-16-2008, 01:24 AM
jordan is one another level that kobe. Kobe amazing player but never as dominent as jordan. Showing some of it this year but where has that been past years. The only person that should be compared to jordan maybe in 10 years in lebron james. But jordan will still win by a milestone.

Xero Gio
04-16-2008, 01:24 AM
lol, here we go :rolleyes: :)

No, no, don't get me wrong. You can see in the other thread I stated Wilt was most dominant athlete ever. ;)

In either case, 81 or 100--it's going to be against a poor team, but professional team none the less.

iron619
04-16-2008, 01:39 AM
No, no, don't get me wrong. You can see in the other thread I stated Wilt was most dominant athlete ever. ;)

In either case, 81 or 100--it's going to be against a poor team, but professional team none the less.
Yeah, I figured that after I saw your rep comment dude!

7~911
04-16-2008, 02:06 AM
LOL @ THIS THREAD


MICHAEL ****ING JORDAN!! Nuff said

Stop comparing the two, Kobe will never be Michael. Period.

Scorpion613
04-16-2008, 08:29 AM
MIKE AS A NEWB :D :
* Only players averaging 20+ points 5+ assists and 5+ rebounds as a rookie

* Oscar Robertson
* Michael Jordan
* LeBron James


f*cking Grant Hill averaged 19.9 PPG, 5+ assists, and 5+ rebounds his rookie season. :(

so close...

jclarsen
04-16-2008, 08:54 AM
Hey now, I think you need a....


Time-out!


Doh!

A timeout didn't work for calipari in the championship game. also, phil jackson has the same philosophy as dean smith and roy williams regarding time-outs.

BBGAMBINI31
04-16-2008, 09:00 AM
i will let phil jackson answer this question

iamlegend
04-19-2008, 09:51 PM
you are an idiot.



http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8391893246352036364&q=kansas+jayhawks&ei=P8MKSP2MHI-05AKqkpyyBA

AceRimRat
04-19-2008, 11:03 PM
lmfao at this thread

Kobe has to win 3 more and MJ faced WAAAAAAAY BETTER compettition.

Jordan forever

MichaelJordan23
04-23-2008, 05:32 PM
lol how can some of you guys say Kobe is better than MJ? Did you never see him play or something?




Let's just start off by saying one thing: MJ was never
considered the best player because he scored 50 points
for 'x amount' of games against the worst teams during
the regular season. He's considered the greatest
because he played his greatest games against the
greatest teams in the playoffs. Remember, it was just
last year that ESPN banned comparing KB to MJ after
his Game 7 disappearing act.

Now, KB has done some things MJ hasn't done of course
but there are dozens and dozens of feats KB will never
even come close to doing that MJ has done (see
bottom). Single scoring feats are pretty much all he
can try as MJ left that type of game a long time ago
in order to build a better team. If you want to build
an argument, let's put some numbers to back it up.
Your article was all opinion and loose observation.
I'm going to go through your article point by point.

1) Kobe is as good a defender. OK, right there, I
almost stopped reading. Not even the biggest Kobe
homing 12 year old kids will say this. In fact, they
point that this is Kobe's biggest gap between him and
MJ. It's actually safe to say that MJ at age 40 was a
better defender than KB is now. MJ at age 40 averaged
MORE steals AND blocks than KB now at fewer minutes
per game. MJ in his prime averaged TWICE as much. MJ
holds the record for most blocks by a guard (131) and
is the first and only guard to record 200 steals and
100 blocks in the same year - twice. He remains
unbreakable here - 9 all-first Defensive awards plus
the DPOY in 1988, steals leader 3 times etc. Not even
close. Kobe's got 4 all-first Defensive awards that
Sports Illustrated calls "dubious at best" -
especially with Shaq covering 3 of them. And, MJ never
let up on his D when he was scoring 50. He was
frenetic on both ends constantly. When KB goes to
offense mode, his D. disappears as his energy is
focused on scoring. I believe he had only 7 steals and
1 block in his 5 game scoring spree - not exactly MJ
material.

2) MJ was a worse teammate and ball hog? Did you get
this quote from a basketball forum? Sure, MJ was a
tough teammate and was also selfish but he had a great
excuse - he was shooting 3-6% better than his team. KB
shoots 3-6 WORSE than LA. Nothing but nonsense here
anyway as players soon picked up their duties around
MJ and he became the best teammate and leader on his
way to 6 rings. As Magic said during MJ's 37.1ppg
season, "We know MJ can score but he needs to make his
teammates better and win" and that's exactly what he
did to squash the selfish-ballhog title forever. Now,
if KB can shoot 3-6% better than his team - he has a
license to hog as well. Unfortunately, this 5 game
streak was his only license as he has shot a mediocre
45% through his career. MJ had that license for a
decade with his career 50% FG. How can you compare?
You can't.

3) MJ would have problems playing with Shaq? I guess
you missed his interview in Cigar: "Give me a 7-footer
like Shaq and I'd still be playing today". MJ knew it
was all about the rings.

4) Best player argument? Sure, KB is the best right
now. But, that argument might be good for 2 of his 11
years. That doesn't hold water for the rest of NBA
history nor does it hold water against MJ's dominance
for a decade and a half. And, plenty of people will
argue for Shaq, Wade, Duncan as well still.

5) Today's athletes are bigger, stronger, faster. OK,
you should have checked the stats. MJ played in the
Big Man era - the tallest 4 year span ever was 85-89
with the single tallest year ever in 1987 at 6-7.62
(the year MJ scored 37.1ppg). Today, it's down to
6-7.26, Now, the players today are more wing players
than Big players but that's because of all the MJ
wannabes. You got it right that players are stronger
and faster (weights, more athletic scouting) but that
number has remained steady since MJ's last 3 peat when
he was killing it at ages 33-35. It's EVEN more
impressive that MJ's last 3 peat still had him
dominating when there was still some form of hand
checking allowed. Any strength advantage today's
players have is gone through the no-hand-checks which
remains the single greatest change in the game today.
Don't forget the Jordan Rules as well - the most
destructive defense ever for one player in an era of
no flagrants.

6) NBA is tougher now? You did know it's the 'no
hand-check era'. You do know there were no 'flagrants'
back in the day right? You need to read Lazenby's
"Death of Defense" regarding the no-hand-checks.
http://lakernoise.blogspot.com/2006/...e-article.html

7) Kobe is surrounded by mediocre talent. True but
look again, KB's team is actually better than you
think and it's easily better than the coke-sniffing
thugs MJ played with early in his career. This is a
topic I that needs another 5 pages so I won't go there
now. Don't forget, Kobe had the best team early in his
career and look what he wanted to give up. Your
argument that Phoenix and the Spurs are better than
the Suns of yesterday are arguable at best. Do they
compare to the Pistons or Knicks on the Eastern end of
MJ's run as well?

8) Hakeem, Admiral, Ewing didn't affect the game like
Shaq and Duncan. Excuse me but MJ ANNIHILATED the
greatest centers INSTEAD OF HAVING THEM ON HIS OWN
TEAM. I'm going to think this was typo - nothing could
be this ignorant. Let's put it this way, MJ played
greater than the greatest centers in an era where
there were still true centers and he ended up denying
all of them rings. MJ ended up with the #1 PER rating
in history - above Wilt, Shaq and Robinson. The reason
why title teams are built around centers is because
they perform at the highest efficiency. MJ defied
logic and performed at an even higher efficiency which is
why he remains the exception - a 'center's
productivity in a guard's package'. One of Kobe's main
problems is that he knows this. That's why he wanted
to get his own team because he knew he could never be
the greatest behind a dominant big man.

Conclusion: Whether you like Kobe or not, he's the
best answer for the best player today and the closest
to MJ in skill. But, that's where it ends. The scoring
bursts against the bottom 26-30 defensive teams are
great but very self-conscious and still nothing
compared to Wilt. Wilt scored over 70 5 times in his
career and he's no MJ either. And, KB has nothing
going on in the playoffs as an individual - the only
place where things matter and the world watches. If MJ
dropped everything to push a scoring feat (dropped
defense, dropped resting minutes, dropped developing
real team chemistry) and all he went for was pushing
50 points - he'd never, ever have won and he wouldn't
be the MJ we know today. He'd just be known as a scorer
in the regular season and as worthless as A-rod in the
real season. But regardless, MJ still owns the most
scoring records as well as ALMOST ALL THE PLAYOFF
Records. Take a look at the all time scoring feats at
the bottom. MJ has 21 of them and the most important
ones, Wilt has 16, Kobe has 1. Take away Wilt and MJ
climbs to 26 and Kobe has 8. Below that are MJ's
records and KB's records. Not ever close.

Again, MJ retired as the greatest playoff performer
ever which is where he solidified himself as the
greatest ever.

It's not repugnant to say someone is better than MJ.
It's just impossible and we can back that all day with
numbers.

Best,
xxxxxx

MichaelJordan23
04-23-2008, 05:35 PM
Here's a list of ALL-TIME SCORING RECORDS.

- Highest career scoring average: MJ 30.12
- Highest career playoff scoring average: MJ 33.4
- Highest career Finals scoring average: MJ 33.6
- Highest single season scoring average: Wilt 50.4
- Highest single series playoff average: West 46.3
- Highest single Finals series average: MJ 41.0
- Most seasons leading league in scoring: MJ 10
- Most consecutive seasons leading in scoring: MJ,
Wilt tied at 7
- Most 50 point games: Wilt 118
- Most 50 point games playoffs: MJ 8
- Most 40 point games: Wilt 271
- Most 40 point games playoffs: MJ 39
- Most consecutive 60 point games: Wilt 4
- Most consecutive 50 point games: Wilt 7
- Most consecutive 50 point games in playoffs: MJ 2
- Most consecutive 45 point games: Wilt 7
- Most consecutive 45 point games playoffs: MJ 3
- Most consecutive 40 point games: Wilt 14
- Most consecutive 40 point games rookie: AI 5
- Most consecutive 40 point games playoffs: West 6
- Most consecutive 40 point games finals: MJ 4
- Most consecutive 35 point games: Wilt 33
- Most consecutive 30 point games: Wilt 65
- Most consecutive 30 point games playoffs: Elgin 11
- Most consecutive 30 point games finals: MJ 9
- Most consecutive 20 point games: Wilt 126
- Most consecutive 20 point games playoffs: MJ 60
- Most consecutive 20 point games finals: MJ 29
- Most consecutive double figures scoring: MJ 866
- Most consecutive points in one game: MJ 23
- Most consecutive points in one game playoffs: MJ 23
- Highest scoring game: Wilt 100
- Highest scoring game playoffs: MJ 63
- Highest scoring game finals: Elgin 61
- Highest scoring game rookie: Wilt 58
- Highest scoring all-star game: Wilt 42
- Highest scoring all-rookie game: Kobe 31
- Most points in 3 quarters: Wilt 69
- Most points in one half: Wilt 59
- Most points one half playoffs: Sleepy Floyd 39
- Most points in one half finals: MJ 35
- Most points one half all-star game: Rice 24
- Most points in one quarter: Gervin 33
- Most points in one quarter playoffs: Sleepy Floyd 29
- Most points in one quarter finals: Isiah 25
- Most points in one quarter all-star game: Rice 20
- Most points in OT: Arenas 16
- Most points in OT playoffs: Drexler 13
- Most points in OT in finals: Havlicek, Laimbeer,
Ainge tied at 9
- Oldest to score 50: MJ 51 at age 38
- Oldest to score 40: MJ 43 at age 40


FULL MJ/KB RECORDS LIST:

KOBE:
NBA Regular-season records Kobe holds:
-All-rookie game (now defunct): 31 points

NBA Regular-season records Kobe Shares:
-Most 3 pointers in one game: 12 (shared with 1
player)
-Most 3 pointers in one half: 8 (5 players)
-Most consecutive 3 pointers: 9 (2 players)
-Most free throws made in one quarter: 14 (5 players)
-Most free throws attempted one quarter: 16 (6
players)

NBA Playoff Records Kobe holds:
-NONE

NBA Playoff Records Kobe Shares:
-NONE

NBA Finals records Kobe holds:
-NONE

NBA Finals records Kobe Shares:
-NONE


MJ:
NBA Regular-season records Michael Jordan holds:
-Most seasons leading league in scoring: 10
-Highest scoring average, career: 30.12ppg
-Most consecutive points, one game: 23
-Most seasons leading league in field goals made: 10
-Most consecutive seasons leading league in field
goal attempts: 10
-Most free throws made, one-half: 20
-Most consecutive gms in double figures in scoring:
866
-Most blocks by a guard: 131
-Most consecutive seasons leading PER: 7
-Highest career PER: 27.91
-Oldest player to score 40+ points: age 40 (43 pts)
-Oldest player to score 50+ points: age 38 (51 pts)

NBA Regular-season records Michael Jordan shares:
-Most consecutive seasons leading league in scoring:
7 (tied with Wilt Chamberlain)
-Most consecutive seasons, 2,000 plus points: 11 (Tied
with Malone)
-Most free throws made, one quarter: 14 (twice, tied
with 5 other players)
-Most seasons leading the league in steals: 3 (tied
with two others)

NBA Playoff records Michael Jordan holds:
-Highest scoring average, career: 33.4ppg
-Record Total points: 5987
-Record Most FTS made: 1463
-Most points playoffs, one-game: 63
-Most points playoffs, three-game series: 135 (vs.
Miami, 1992)
-Most Points playoffs, five-game series: 226 (vs.
Cleveland, 1988)
-Most field goals made playoffs, three-game series:
53 (vs. Miami, 1992)
-Most field goals made playoffs, five-game series: 86
(vs. Philadelphia, 1990)
-Most field goals made playoffs, six-game series: 101
(vs. Phoenix, 1993)
-Most consecutive 50pt games: 2
-Most consecutive 45pt games: 3
-Most consecutive games, 20 plus points: 60
-Most free throws made, one quarter: 13
-Most free throws attempted, one quarter: 14
-Most 50 point games: 8
-Most 40 point games: 39
-Most consecutive points: 23

NBA Playoff records Michael Jordan shares:
-Most field goals, in a game: 24 (vs. Cleveland, May
1, 1988; tied with two others)
-Most three-point field goals made, one half: 6
(first half vs. Portland, June 3, 1992; tied with four
others)

NBA Finals records Michael Jordan holds:
- Highest Scoring average: 33.6
-Most points, six-game series: 246 (vs. Phoenix,
1993)
-Most field goals made, five-game series: 63 (vs.
L.A. Lakers, 1991)
-Most field goals made, six-game series: 101 (vs.
Phoenix, 1993)
-Most steals, five-game series: 14 (vs. L.A. Lakers,
1991)
-Highest scoring average, one series: 41.0 (vs.
Phoenix, 1993)
-Most consecutive games, 40-plus points: 4 (June 11,
1993 to June 18, 1993)
-Most consecutive 30 point games: 9
-Most consecutive games, 20-plus points: 29 (June 22,

1991 to June 1997)
-Most points, one-half: 35 (vs. Portland, June 3,
1992)
-Most consecutive field goals: 13 (Vs. LA)
-Most consecutive points: 23 (Vs. Seattle)
-Most Finals MVPs: 6

NBA Finals records Michael Jordan shares:
-Most field goals made, one-half: 14 (vs. Portland,
June 3, 1992 and vs. Phoenix, June 16, 1993; tied with
Isiah Thomas)
-Most three-pointers made, one-half: 6 (vs. Portland,
June 3, 1992; tied with Kenny Smith)
-Most free throws made, one-quarter: 9 (at Utah, June
11, 1997; tied with Frank Ramsay)
-Most free throws attempted, one-half: 15 (at Utah,
June 4, 1997; tied with Bill Russell)


MJ/KB Awards:
..............................KB....MJ
Scoring Titles.......1.....10
1St NBA Team......4.....10
1st Defense..........4.....9
Steals Title............0.....3
MVPs......................0.....5
Rings.....................3.....6
NBA Finals............4.....6
Finals MVPs.........0.....6
PER Titles............0.....7
Olympic Golds.....0.....2
DPOYS..................0.....1
ROYS....................0.....1
Totals...................16....66

Kobe must score 36ppg for the next 9 years to catch
MJ's record 30.1ppg

Kobe must score 46.6ppg in his next 100 playoff games
to catch MJ's record 33.4ppg.

MichaelJordan23
04-23-2008, 05:37 PM
Jordan had comp to equal anyones. Nobody in this league now that Kevin Willis is gone has even played a team the equal of the Showtime Lakers or Birds Celtics. Well no. is cliff still around in NJ? If so...no star has played them. None of these guards have had to beat Dumars and/or Rodman to go into the lane and get knock the **** out by Laimbeer and have them get away with it. Nobody today is going into the lane and running into centers like Hakeem/Drob/Mutombo in his prime/Zo/Ewing and so on.

And Jordan played when despite getting favored by the refs he couldnt get the calls Wade, AI, Bron, and Kobe do. The rules have changed in their favors. NBA allows a zone but teams dont really use it well and teams in the 80s used it too they just got away with it(unless they were playing Pat Riley who loved to point it out to refs when his own team wasnt using one).

You cant even handcheck a guy anymore. Much less all the **** Rodman, Moncrief, Jones, Gerald Wilkins, Starks, Dumars, nance, DJ, and such did to MJ. And the athletic difference between the best modern outside defenders and MJs isnt big. The best man to man defender now is probably Bruce Bowen who is hardly an athletic freak. Hes just determined, with good fundamentals, and allowed to play alllllllmost like 90s defenders could. So there is prince. There was Bobby Jones, Gerald Wilklins, Spider Smith(with his 7'6'' wingspan) and Larry Nance who guarded everyone from 2-5. Nance athletically may have no current better of his build. Closest would be Josh Smith. Nance wasl ike 6'10'' both fast and quick(difference) with hops like few ive ever seen.

There are tough bigmen like Ben Wallace now. No current center is either as athletic or skilled on D as Hakeem and Drob were. Or Ewing for that matter if you use pre injury Ewing. Which bigmen now are better disrupting an offense than Zo was? Or Mutombo?

How many pointguards now are better defenders than Gary Payton was? Or Alvin Robertson? Or Derek Harper? How many swingmen are better defenders than Pippen, Jordan, Rodman(who was a swingman type early and the best 3/4 defender later), Cooper, Moncrief, and so on? How many 4s are better defenders than Oakley, Williams, and Mccray? I can think of 2. And Jordan played both.

Is this all D team:

Ben
Bowen
AK
Artest
Kidd
Kobe(they had 6 last year with a tie)

really better than this one from 10 years ago?

Payton
Jordan
Pippen
Rodman
Drob

?

And its not like Jordan played all old guys who dont play now. Or bad comp period. He played Duncan, Shaq, Dirk, Tmac, AI, Kidd, Pierce, Webber, KG and all them. In fact he played 9 of the 11 people currently on the all D team. And 11 of the 15 all NBA players. Not to mention Magic, Bird, Hakeem, Zo, Ewing, Isiah, Drexler, Malone, Stockton, Barkley, Kareem, Mchale, Nique, Grant Hill, Penny, Tim Hardaway, Mitch Richmond, Kemp, LJ, Mullin, KJ, Reggie Miller and more.

Jordan isnt one of those "era" guys. Even if someone thought he was the fact that he played against every great player to enter the NBA in the last 22 years aside from Lebron and Wade should kill that idea. And if anyone still wasnt convinced seeing a 38-39 yearold Jordan on bad knees robbed of his athletic ability and playing just 35 minutes put up 25/6/5 in 2002 should have left no doubt.

Michael Jordan in any setting is Michael Jordan. If he played and dominated any and everyone in his path in a prime including some of the greatest defenders and scorers in basketball history I doubt hed crumble in the face of the mighty shutdown D of Tayshaun Prince and Ron Artest or the amazing offensive talents of Wade and Lebron.

Michael Jordan in his prime dominated the 80s and 90s. MJ after his prime was among the best in the 2000s when healthy. You could drop MJ in his prime into the 2255 NBA and watch him put up 32/6/6 vs 7'3'' shooting guards with Dirk range and KG athletic ability.






He's Michael Jordan. End of story.

iamlegend
04-23-2008, 05:57 PM
[QUOTE=AceRimRat;155488091]lmfao at this thread

Kobe has to win 3 more and MJ faced WAAAAAAAY BETTER compettition.

Jordan forever[/QUOTE

This is a bodybuilding board and you think that athletes of yesteryear are more conditioned than today.

kooldude
04-23-2008, 07:39 PM
lmfao at this thread

Kobe has to win 3 more and MJ faced WAAAAAAAY BETTER compettition.

Jordan forever

Kobe faces better competition at SG in this era. In Jordan's era, there were better big men.

Haterade~
04-23-2008, 07:41 PM
KOBE!!!

But that's because I'm near LA and see every home game on TV....