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TANK25
03-29-2008, 05:57 PM
How much time do you put in a week?I do 1 and half hours a week.I know I should do more:)

asmolenski
03-29-2008, 06:00 PM
I do an hour at least 5 days a week but I am trying to cut fat right now..

Wildtim
03-29-2008, 06:02 PM
3 hrs per week, in the gym. About 3 hours on and off every Saturday.

TANK25
03-29-2008, 06:02 PM
I do an hour at least 5 days a week but I am trying to cut fat right now..
Most of my cardio is from hitting the heavy bag.

chodan9
03-29-2008, 06:05 PM
I only do 20 to 25 minutes 4 to 5 times per week.

djl_ottawa
03-29-2008, 06:10 PM
I am bad for cardio. Right now I do two days of 30 minutes of cardio, and each other day of the 5 I do 10 minute warmup. So a total of 1.5 hours.

I know I should do more. But I go to the gym during work outs (1.2 hours roughly) so by the time I walk to the gym, get in do my workout and shower. it's time to go).

I think once I am used to it though, my cardio days will be from 30 minutes to 40 minutes.

ectoBgone
03-29-2008, 06:12 PM
I play hockey two days a week for an hour at a time (I consider that HIIT) and I'll mix in one or two early morning elliptical sessions at low HR (120-130) for 30 minutes at a time.

TANK25
03-29-2008, 06:16 PM
I play hockey two days a week for an hour at a time (I consider that HIIT) and I'll mix in one or two early morning elliptical sessions at low HR (120-130) for 30 minutes at a time.
Hockey is great cardio,but I can`t skate worth a damn.

Bando
03-29-2008, 06:19 PM
15 - 20 minutes on the bike every morning and currently running 20 - 25 minutes every other day. Shirt is gonna be coming off in public soon, time to shed the blubber folks...

djl_ottawa
03-29-2008, 06:21 PM
Hockey is great cardio,but I can`t skate worth a damn.

Here here. I used to be good as a kid, then a couple of years ago I tried it again and it is NOT like riding a bike. I sucked at it. I was sore as hell after. I had blisters. I also fell so many times I think I hurt by tail bone, since I was sore for 2 weeks.

Do_Somethin
03-29-2008, 06:36 PM
1 to 1 1/2 hours a week plus a fitness class (1hour). I also walk most places and am rather active otherwise not including work.

PROT
03-29-2008, 06:38 PM
Its a waste. Definition is from diet. Cardio just makes your body more efficient so you are able to function on less food. Defeats the purpose of trying to look good. Nothing but fat people on the cardio machines and girls who are anorexic or bulimic.

Inthegrass
03-29-2008, 06:40 PM
I don't think how much time you spend is important, rather the intensity that is important. On weight days I jump rope hard for usually 20 minutes at the end of every workout. On non-weight room days I get in usually 40 minutes of very intense cardio ranging between the rowing machine, eliptical and jumping rope. If I'm at home I workout on the heavy bag. I usually do that with jumping rope on weekends.
I nearly forgot that I play an hour and a half of basketball on Wednesday nights too.

This week I did the full cardio because I was eating better.

Jeff

lukamar
03-29-2008, 06:40 PM
Between none and zero. But today I did 5 minutes on a new recumbent bike so i would know how to to use the programs when my clients asked. I always like tom finish my entire cardio program early in the year..:D

Gunn27
03-29-2008, 06:41 PM
Its a waste. Definition is from diet. Cardio just makes your body more efficient so you are able to function on less food. Defeats the purpose of trying to look good. Nothing but fat people on the cardio machines and girls who are anorexic or bulimic.Suddenly, generations are enlightened. So, just how good do you look, with no cardio?

Do_Somethin
03-29-2008, 06:41 PM
Its a waste. Definition is from diet. Cardio just makes your body more efficient so you are able to function on less food. Defeats the purpose of trying to look good. Nothing but fat people on the cardio machines and girls who are anorexic or bulimic.

I'll let someone else state why this is such a clueless response.

djl_ottawa
03-29-2008, 06:42 PM
Between none and zero. But today I did 5 minutes on a new recumbent bike so i would know how to to use the programs when my clients asked. I always like tom finish my entire cardio program early in the year..:D

Guess it would look bad eh if you get on the bike to show your clients how to use it, but spend 5 minutes trying to figure it out lol

lukamar
03-29-2008, 06:47 PM
Guess it would look bad eh if you get on the bike to show your clients how to use it, but spend 5 minutes trying to figure it out lol

Happened to me once...LOL But not with a customer. I had no idea how to get a bike out of Manual and into a program.

Minotaur
03-29-2008, 07:04 PM
How much time do you put in a week?I do 1 and half hours a week.I know I should do more:)

None :o and it shows. :(

baker
03-29-2008, 07:05 PM
4 Hours per week. Two - 1 Hours sessions Sunday and Wednesday and 30 Minutes PWO MTTF.
Once the Abs are out I will do less and less. I hate cardio.

ectoBgone
03-29-2008, 07:05 PM
Hockey is great cardio,but I can`t skate worth a damn.

LOL. That's okay, you haven't seen me try to hit a bag. :)

PROT
03-29-2008, 07:16 PM
Suddenly, generations are enlightened. So, just how good do you look, with no cardio?


do for sure

PROT
03-29-2008, 07:21 PM
I'll let someone else state why this is such a clueless response.


You look like you are a real seasoned bber.

StressMonkey
03-29-2008, 07:22 PM
0 hrs 0 mins a week if you don't count jumping rope for a few minutes as a warm up before lifting. :)

tolewfo
03-29-2008, 07:35 PM
I do about 5 1/2 hours a week. 30 min on lifting days and an hour on off days.

partsRheavy
03-29-2008, 08:00 PM
It's been 3-4x/week for ~30 min --- outdoor walking. I rarely do cardio in the gym. I'd rather walk outside.

As soon as I get finished with some major spring cleaning, I'm aiming to do 30-45 min cardio ~5x/week. That will probably start in about 2 weeks.

I can tell you that _just_ doing cardio does little for my physique. Used to walk a lot of 10K and longer walks with only minor improvements/maintenance.

I do think that cardio is necessary to keep factors like general endurance, blood pressure, etc. in check.

Geoff Richards
03-29-2008, 08:07 PM
I also play hockey and training for that is 2 nights per week
I cant skate either but then its not needed on turf ;)

PROT
03-29-2008, 09:45 PM
One of the benefits of an infrared sauna is it gives the equivalent of a cardio workout without effort and rids you of toxins as well. In Japan they use the infrared sauna to improve heart function in Congestive heart failure patients. I use mine 4 times a week.

I will reiterate that while cardio work may improve some bodily functions it does nothing for muscular development or definition without DIET. Our ancestors did not jog in place for hours but conserved energy as much as possible. You will not see hunter gatherer societies having lost distance races. People developed running bursts of speed for short distances to escape predators or hunt. They walked otherwise and this is still the best form of "cardio". Most trainers advise Hiit training with sprints and emphasize weights for development. Look at the people on the cardio equipment in the gym. They neglect resistance training because Kenneth Cooper said cardio was goo 40 years ago. I would not want to look likev that skinny *******.

ouprincess
03-29-2008, 10:04 PM
Its a waste. Definition is from diet. Cardio just makes your body more efficient so you are able to function on less food. Defeats the purpose of trying to look good. Nothing but fat people on the cardio machines and girls who are anorexic or bulimic.

Well you wouldn't find me anywhere near cardio machines but I log more then 50 miles a week running plus other forms of cardio and I'm neither fat or skinny.I'm certianly not anorexic or bulimic and your right diet is important but so is cardio and not just for fat loss. Saying it's just a waste time is ignorant. Yes as your body becomes more efficent it takes less cals to to do the same amount of exercise but news flash the same thing happens in weightlifting or any other activity your body ajust.However the more exercise you get in any form the more fat your body burns in general. Everyones fitness goals differ so making a blanket statement like this can only be taken as insulting.Certainly the comments about women and overweight people were for no reason but to insult. This post was just rude. negged!!!

marius1
03-29-2008, 11:34 PM
1 1/2 hours of low intensity, and 20min of HIIT per week for me.

NotTooLate
03-29-2008, 11:48 PM
I can't do cardio anymore or else I drop too much weight too fast so I do none! :D

Stevelegh
03-30-2008, 12:39 AM
Type 'the dark side of cardio' into Google.

Craig Ballantyne (who writes articles here) has written an e book, which I'm sure you'll find interesting.

His website is called www.TurbulenceTraining.com (yep, he's got something to sell!!), but it's worth looking into.

wulf88
03-30-2008, 01:22 AM
Let's see, about 4 hours during the week, none on the weekends.....
I usually do three days of HIIT, and 2 days of distance training. I also jump rope minimum 2 days a week and work out on the heavy bag as well, but I usually focus on kicks and elbow strikes....

dogguy
03-30-2008, 04:44 AM
How much time do you put in a week?I do 1 and half hours a week.I know I should do more:)
--They want me to do at least 3 sessions of 45 minutes each per week. But I do more like 5 sessions, sometimes six per week.

bhaputi
03-30-2008, 05:02 AM
Its a waste. Definition is from diet. Cardio just makes your body more efficient so you are able to function on less food. Defeats the purpose of trying to look good. Nothing but fat people on the cardio machines and girls who are anorexic or bulimic.

Care to elaborate on your statement, as it really makes no logical sense? Specifically:
"Cardio just makes your body more efficient so you are able to function on less food. Defeats the purpose of trying to look good."

Gunn27
03-30-2008, 06:45 AM
a lot better than you do for sureOuch! But hey, that's hardly anything to boast about. Of course, we will all just have to take your word for it.


Its a waste. Definition is from diet. Cardio just makes your body more efficient so you are able to function on less food. Defeats the purpose of trying to look good. Nothing but fat people on the cardio machines and girls who are anorexic or bulimic.It's a waste AND it makes your body more efficient? Interesting. It is also true that cardio makes your body more efficient so that you can function on MORE food. Last time I checked that was very helpful in the goals of many bb'ers. How about heart health, nutrient partitioning, increased capillary network, increase oxygen flow to muscles, recovery, increasing insulin sensitivity in the muscle, just to scratch the surface?

While I agree diet is the most important factor, no matter how good your diet is, you will never reach your maximum definition potential without cardio of some kind.

I see in your next entry:


I will reiterate that while cardio work may improve some bodily functions it does nothing for muscular development or definition without DIET. Our ancestors did not jog in place for hours but conserved energy as much as possible. You will not see hunter gatherer societies having lost distance races. People developed running bursts of speed for short distances to escape predators or hunt. They walked otherwise and this is still the best form of "cardio". Most trainers advise Hiit training with sprints and emphasize weights for development. Look at the people on the cardio equipment in the gym. They neglect resistance training because Kenneth Cooper said cardio was goo 40 years ago. I would not want to look likev that skinny *******.

... your position begins to change. Cardio is no longer "a waste", and now it appears that you acknowledge certain types of cardio, in conjunction with a proper diet, is in fact beneficial. Comparing our ancestral behaviour to today's world is an interesting approach. If there is one thing today's society has down to a fine art, it's conserving energy. But I do see your point and I agree with the HIIT approach versus "traditional" cardio.

BePrecise
03-30-2008, 07:17 AM
I knock out 30-45 minutes per week tops during the winter. When the weather is good, it's quite a bit more playing baseball and riding my bike. I'm not a huge believer in the cardio craze either (cardio=lose fat; weight=gain muscle mindset that many still hold), but if people do what they enjoy doing they'll reap some benefits. I tend to hate TM/Bike in the gym but enjoy HIIT outside as just because we're "old" doesn't mean we can't have fun with sprints, agility drills, etc.

dbx
03-30-2008, 07:37 AM
Ouch! But hey, that's hardly anything to boast about. Of course, we will all just have to take your word for it.

It's a waste AND it makes your body more efficient? Interesting. It is also true that cardio makes your body more efficient so that you can function on MORE food. Last time I checked that was very helpful in the goals of many bb'ers. How about heart health, nutrient partitioning, increased capillary network, increase oxygen flow to muscles, recovery, increasing insulin sensitivity in the muscle, just to scratch the surface?

While I agree diet is the most important factor, no matter how good your diet is, you will never reach your maximum definition potential without cardio of some kind.

I see in your next entry:



... your position begins to change. Cardio is no longer "a waste", and now it appears that you acknowledge certain types of cardio, in conjunction with a proper diet, is in fact beneficial. Comparing our ancestral behaviour to today's world is an interesting approach. If there is one thing today's society has down to a fine art, it's conserving energy. But I do see your point and I agree with the HIIT approach versus "traditional" cardio.

Negged for dignifying a stupid statement with a thoughtful response :D

bodyhard
03-30-2008, 08:04 AM
I very rarely do cardio I lose too much weight if I do any type of cardio. When I was going to compete last year (before my accident) I started doing cardio. It sucked ass, boring as hell, but I was doing roughly about 2 to 2.5 hours a week or so.

ouprincess
03-30-2008, 08:42 AM
One of the benefits of an infrared sauna is it gives the equivalent of a cardio workout without effort and rids you of toxins as well. In Japan they use the infrared sauna to improve heart function in Congestive heart failure patients. I use mine 4 times a week.

I will reiterate that while cardio work may improve some bodily functions it does nothing for muscular development or definition without DIET. Our ancestors did not jog in place for hours but conserved energy as much as possible. You will not see hunter gatherer societies having lost distance races. People developed running bursts of speed for short distances to escape predators or hunt. They walked otherwise and this is still the best form of "cardio". Most trainers advise Hiit training with sprints and emphasize weights for development. Look at the people on the cardio equipment in the gym. They neglect resistance training because Kenneth Cooper said cardio was goo 40 years ago. I would not want to look likev that skinny *******.


Maybe you want see training or races back in the caveman days maybe, but but I think enough time has passed that we can longer compare ourselves to cavemen. If you read a history book or even watch a movie ( There's a very popular one right now called "300" it's a pretty decent story about Sparta) there you will see that not only did people hunt they ran races, they trainined hard they fought, they enjoined olympic type games and this goes back to the ealry B/C era. Our ancestors did a hell of alot more cardio then we do! :D and let me just also point out that they also used long distant running to track down and catch the food they were hunting, not just to run away from danger.....and no not in just short bursts.

johnnyironboard
03-30-2008, 09:26 AM
How much time do you put in a week?I do 1 and half hours a week.I know I should do more:)

I do two 40 minute and two 50 minute cycling classes per week. I also go out dancing with my wife two or three times per week for about an hour.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEMWulxPQ9U&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cmFLWkcGgVY



We do a lot of west coast swing and country and western- the two in the video taught at a workshop we went to a few weeks ago- they are great.

Whiskeyjack
03-30-2008, 10:17 AM
I can't do cardio anymore or else I drop too much weight too fast so I do none! :D

Moi aussi - and it bores the hell out of me - but I do a good deal of walking whenever I can, or 40-70 minutes at a good clip by the nearest seawall. Did it in Van, do it here.

ohiobowhunter75
03-30-2008, 03:27 PM
Right now I'm doing no less than 6 hours.Three 1 hour sessions on off days and 30 min runs with 5 min. warm up and cool downs.I'm trying to cut a few pounds off for the summer.

bodyrokk
03-30-2008, 04:41 PM
How much time do you put in a week?I do 1 and half hours a week.I know I should do more:)

where in philly do u live? fairmount park awesome bike/rollerblade trails and lotsa of beautiful women to look at!!! that bike trails comes all the way into reading but i have yet to figure out the whole trail

TANK25
03-30-2008, 05:05 PM
where in philly do u live? fairmount park awesome bike/rollerblade trails and lotsa of beautiful women to look at!!! that bike trails comes all the way into reading but i have yet to figure out the whole trail
I`m ten mins from Kelly Drive and West River drive.I agree with you ,I`m going to try the bike trail that takes you to Valley Forge!!!!Sundays are great they close West River Drive off to cars and you can bike,rollerblade and jog all want:)

Char
03-31-2008, 12:42 AM
Its a waste. Definition is from diet. Cardio just makes your body more efficient so you are able to function on less food. Defeats the purpose of trying to look good. Nothing but fat people on the cardio machines and girls who are anorexic or bulimic.

Ahh.. the beauty of ignorance :D


Currently I do 8? hours of cardio a week, but I'm also getting ready for a competition :)

LanePianoMan
03-31-2008, 05:02 AM
As many years as I've been working on my body, I STILL am not sure if cardio does that much good for me personally. As a matter of fact, I am in a serious cutting phase and I just dropped three of my six cardio routines because it is tapping too much of my energy for the lifting (thus I'm doing cardio only on non-lifting days).

I think we all can agree that everyone is different, and that we know trimming off body fat can be done by either diet, exercise or a combination. I have read of many bodybuilders who cut to competition levels without any cardio, so this proves it can be done. However, my suspicion is that if someone can find research studies on this, that those who do at least regular cardio have somewhat of an edge - how much I'm not sure.

What I find interesting, is that the body is extremely stubborn after a certain point. I have run into the SAME CHALLENGES trying to get my biceps to grow another quarter of an inch as I have in increasing the velocity of my scales. Most people can get good results with regular weight lifting or piano practicing, but going up to the "next level" in either area, requires tremendous patience and determination.

If any of you are like me, you may get frustrated that your body tends to stay the same after many years of lifting and dieting and cardio, etc. But ask yourself this question: If you were to stand in front of a mirror naked with ten of your best friends, who would win the physique contest? In my case, I would win hands down. I may not look like Larry Scott yet (my all-time favorite male physique), but putting in my time faithfully at the gym all these years has certainly kept me in very good shape compared to others my age and that counts for a lot.

One last thing: I know cardio definitely promotes good health, visible or not, and often times it is what we cannot see that is most important.

Lane

dogguy
03-31-2008, 05:22 AM
Good reply-post, LPM! :)

I don't have any research on the topic. For me, it's a matter of enjoying the routine. I.e. I like running outside in the sun, etc. But you're right, your body does tend to plateau on cardio and you stop making gains. That's the problem that I had. It wasn't until I finally got my butt into the gym that I started making gains in this area.

LanePianoMan
03-31-2008, 07:02 AM
Good reply-post, LPM! :)

I don't have any research on the topic. For me, it's a matter of enjoying the routine. I.e. I like running outside in the sun, etc. But you're right, your body does tend to plateau on cardio and you stop making gains. That's the problem that I had. It wasn't until I finally got my butt into the gym that I started making gains in this area.

Thanks and good luck with your progress!

vnmama
03-31-2008, 08:07 AM
I do no cardio.

When I used to do cardio I seemed to lose muscle and not fat. I am currently at 15% bf with diet and full body strength training twice a week. I am sure I would do cardio if I was trying to get my bf very low, but that is not my goal.

And I have to agree that the only people I see doing cardio are very overweight or very skinny with no muscle mass.

I believe for the majority of people, their time would be better spent lifting weights than walking on the treadmill.

Mr. Someday
03-31-2008, 08:33 AM
Its a waste. Definition is from diet. Cardio just makes your body more efficient so you are able to function on less food. Defeats the purpose of trying to look good. Nothing but fat people on the cardio machines and girls who are anorexic or bulimic.


Couldn't disagree more. Cardio is an excellent way to up your eating to a point you can pack on slabs of muscle while keeping fat gains at bay. When done right, can help turn you into a human blast furnace with the correct diet.

dbx
03-31-2008, 08:57 AM
I do no cardio.

When I used to do cardio I seemed to lose muscle and not fat.

"Seemed", being the key word :). It's usually true that you will lose some muscle when doing intense cardio, but if you're doing it right you should be protecting hard earned muscle and burning mostly fat.

IronCamp
03-31-2008, 09:25 AM
I do 20 mins of HIIT 2 to 3 times a week times a week, 45-60 mins of steady state cardio 2 to 3 times a week, and sometimes add in 20-40 additional minutes when I can.

So, I guess that's about 3 to 5 hours.

bhaputi
03-31-2008, 12:22 PM
And I have to agree that the only people I see doing cardio are very overweight or very skinny with no muscle mass.


maybe that is because the rest of us do our cardio how it is meant to be done - outside :p

At 6'2" and 200 (roughly 17% bf, I believe) I consider myself to be neither obese nor very skinny, and I do cardo 5-6 days a week.

To be honest, I find this "only really skinny and really fat people do cardio" thing to be both sad and ridiculous. It makes no logical sense.

CardioGrl
03-31-2008, 12:42 PM
Its a waste. Definition is from diet. Cardio just makes your body more efficient so you are able to function on less food. Defeats the purpose of trying to look good. Nothing but fat people on the cardio machines and girls who are anorexic or bulimic.

I would be very interested in hearing as to why you feel this way, and while you're at it, can you please provide some kind of back up such as research based on facts?

Thanks in advance,
-M

CardioGrl
03-31-2008, 12:44 PM
30 minutes most days of the week, with at least two days of HIIT.

-M

vnmama
03-31-2008, 02:43 PM
maybe that is because the rest of us do our cardio how it is meant to be done - outside :p

At 6'2" and 200 (roughly 17% bf, I believe) I consider myself to be neither obese nor very skinny, and I do cardo 5-6 days a week.

To be honest, I find this "only really skinny and really fat people do cardio" thing to be both sad and ridiculous. It makes no logical sense.

It is very true at my gym...really!

I WISH you worked out at my gym, but you don't.:) You guys must know that there are only a handful of you around....you are not the norm.:) (I meant fit guys over 35)

My comment was more aimed at my female friends out there, to show a real life example (me), that endless hours of cardio are not always necessary or even desirable.

ouprincess
03-31-2008, 02:58 PM
Here's the thing you need to remeber yes you will probally see more skinny people on the cardio at gyms and that's because it's mainly all they do and they are generally there to be skinny which means that they are also eating to be thin.....Those of us with muscle are more likely to be outside running and not in the gym.This is because we know it's more bennifical to train outside and where usually training for a reason either love of running or races. We are among the norm though..seriously stop and think about the amount of cardio the marines or navy seals do (or others,including law enforcement... let me remind everyone Ronnie Coleman we all what he did) these men and women hold on to large amounts of muscle while doing exterme cardio.

BePrecise
03-31-2008, 03:12 PM
I would be very interested in hearing as to why you feel this way, and while you're at it, can you please provide some kind of back up such as research based on facts?

Thanks in advance,
-M

I'm not sure why PROT may feel that way, but I "kind-of" understand the statement. The general public still has the belief that the only way to lose fat is to do cardio and many still view lifting weights as only good for "toning". That belief lends itself well to overweight people and women who may be less concerned with getting "big" as some often say. Obviously I'm sure most of the women here know better, but the misconception is still out there. It's easy for those who believe this way to get on cardio equipment, but for them to put any effort into lifting a weight can be a battle. I sometimes train a 320lb. guy and he loves the cardio equipment thinking it's his way to ripville, yet he is very proficient at lifting (his cardio fixation has yielded little in over 2 years, but there are other factors). At 320 he definitely should be doing both, but I try to get him to understand that those 500 cals. he burns on the bike will be nullified when we drinks that 32oz. Pepsi with dinner.

Lastly, I'd like to see more research on this area as well but it's hard to quantify. One must ask themselves if 5-6 hours/week is giving them the returns for the time invested. For someone like me with a large family, it is not. If I had the time, why not hang around and do some cardio...beats going home and plopping on the couch. If one works a desk job, by all means do more cardio because you're sitting all day...again each individual must determine what produces the best results for the time invested IMO.

bhaputi
03-31-2008, 05:49 PM
It is very true at my gym...really!

I WISH you worked out at my gym, but you don't.:) You guys must know that there are only a handful of you around....you are not the norm.:) (I meant fit guys over 35)

My comment was more aimed at my female friends out there, to show a real life example (me), that endless hours of cardio are not always necessary or even desirable.

That makes a bit more sense, but even if I did work out at your gym you would still never see me doing cardio :p I run outside...

EMISGOD
03-31-2008, 05:56 PM
How much time do you put in a week?I do 1 and half hours a week.I know I should do more:)

Starting today, probably around 4 - 6 hours a week or so. In a few weeks from now, it could potentially be double that.

EDIT: I just read through the thread and noticed the discussion instead of just answering the OP's actual question, which was what I did initially.

What I use are the following: Ellipticals, Heavy Bag, Jump Rope, Treadmill, Stairmill, AirDyne, Road Bicycle, Rowing Machine.

I personally think Cardio is underrated overall and mainly because persons are using it for what, to me, is a subsidiary purpose (burning fat) instead of the primary, which is cardiovascular conditioning. Almost everything I do is oriented to performance-driven, but everything also follows cardiovascular health. If you are fit, in a cardiovascular sense, everything functions at a higher level, from Lifting to digestion to yelling into a mic onstage to sexual congress to thought and so on. A lot of it, as mentioned, depends on what you're trying to do. Are there ways around Cardio? Sure, but if general overall health is somewhere towards the top of your goals, a well-functioning cardiovascular system should be paramount in your considerations, at least in my view.