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higher-peaks
03-21-2008, 09:21 AM
OK here it is again o35. Ethics........this was our last discussion. Is lying ethical? Here is the scenario....if lying would benefit both, without repercussion, the person lying and the person being lyed to is it the "right" thing to do? Obviously if it doesnt benefit one or the other than it would be ethicaly wrong........discuss...and yes luke gimmie your intelligent opinion.

dbx
03-21-2008, 09:39 AM
OK here it is again o35. Ethics........this was our last discussion. Is lying ethical? Here is the scenario....if lying would benefit both, without repercussion, the person lying and the person being lyed to is it the "right" thing to do? Obviously if it doesnt benefit one or the other than it would be ethicaly wrong........discuss...and yes luke gimmie your intelligent opinion.

The problem lies (no pun intended) within the question itself, as it is a flawed premise to start with; You put the "liar" in the position of determining whether or not "it would benefit both, without repercussion", which assumes he/her alone has the right to decide when lying is acceptable.

Thread over :cool:

tjrob
03-21-2008, 09:41 AM
wow dude...it seems somewhat vague so I would have to say it depends on the circumstances right?

Lying to the one you love, about a dress you hate knowing she loves it, isn't a bad thing.
Lying to someone to string them along because nothing better is going on at the time is wrong.

But hey it's my opinion....

higher-peaks
03-21-2008, 09:49 AM
The problem lies (no pun intended) within the question itself, as it is a flawed premise to start with; You put the "liar" in the position of determining whether or not "it would benefit both, without repercussion", which assumes he/her alone has the right to decide when lying is acceptable.

Thread over :cool:

well that, according to the professor, is who decides in the first place. The person lying has the responsibility of deciding what their lie could cause and the whole problem is that no one has the ability to decide what the future of the lie holds.....so ya your correct....what my question is is any lie in any circumstance ethical????

Inthegrass
03-21-2008, 09:50 AM
I learned a very good lesson from someone that taught me the value of not telling white lies. Everyone does it right? I learned very quickly that no matter what, the truth comes out and it's just something that feels so much better to do in the first place.
It like having a huge weight lifted off of my shoulders knowing that no matter what, I know I'm going to tell the truth. It's just the right thing to do and now I know that my word is good. Others know that too and that in its self is a good enough reason for not lying. I just feel better about myself for it.

Jeff

higher-peaks
03-21-2008, 09:54 AM
I learned a very good lesson from someone that taught me the value of not telling white lies. Everyone does it right? I learned very quickly that no matter what, the truth comes out and it's just something that feels so much better to do in the first place.
It like having a huge weight lifted off of my shoulders knowing that no matter what, I know I'm going to tell the truth. It's just the right thing to do and now I know that my word is good. Others know that too and that in its self is a good enough reason for not lying. I just feel better about myself for it.

Jeff

agreed

higher-peaks
03-21-2008, 09:56 AM
wow dude...it seems somewhat vague so I would have to say it depends on the circumstances right?

Lying to the one you love, about a dress you hate knowing she loves it, isn't a bad thing.
Lying to someone to string them along because nothing better is going on at the time is wrong.

But hey it's my opinion....

ok....but this is correct what you say. the first lie benefits both parties...the second only benefits the liar....so it's true that if it benefits both then it's ok?

dbx
03-21-2008, 10:17 AM
....so ya your correct....what my question is is any lie in any circumstance ethical????

Phrased like that ^ using the word "ethical", the simple answer is no.

ntrllftr
03-21-2008, 10:20 AM
I know what a 5.11a is...




Actually no I don't but I bet you were ready to discuss climbing with me.
Lying sucks! A lot of things are just best not said. What you don't know wont hurt you, right?


.

Damon Smith
03-21-2008, 10:24 AM
Phrased like that ^ using the word "ethical", the simple answer is no.

I agree and the other thing is, don't do anything you have to lie about.

ntrllftr
03-21-2008, 10:27 AM
I agree and the other thing is, don't do anything you have to lie about.

Funny you say this. A guy yesterday who is a surgical student said "don't do anything that you would be embarrased that needs to be explained if it goes wrong"

higher-peaks
03-21-2008, 10:31 AM
I know what a 5.11a is...




Actually no I don't but I bet you were ready to discuss climbing with me.
Lying sucks! A lot of things are just best not said. What you don't know wont hurt you, right?


.

LOLOL ya got me.....next time dont say anything.....lol ;)

Nikonguy
03-21-2008, 10:45 AM
Maybe I'm slow but can you enlighten me as to a lie I could tell someone that would truely benefit us both with no repercussions?

Ingersoll
03-21-2008, 10:54 AM
It depends. If it's business then there are times when lying is a necessity. I was in outside sales for 12 years and there were times when I knew the client was lying to me; and I knew that he knew that I knew he was lying to me. Sometimes that's how the game is played. You just have to deal with it.

Some people, by their nature and temperament deserve to be lied to. I'm thinking of nosy people and people who simply lack tact or believe that they belong in everyone else's business.

There's also good reason to lie to spare someone's feelings, but that's already been covered.

All dishonesty is not the same and the person that says exactly what's on their mind at all times doesn't have many friends. Lies have their place in society.

Bando
03-21-2008, 10:56 AM
Maybe I'm slow but can you enlighten me as to a lie I could tell someone that would truely benefit us both with no repercussions?

example: "you look stunning in that lingerie!"
She feels good, you get sex. Everyone wins.

Ingersoll
03-21-2008, 11:01 AM
Maybe I'm slow but can you enlighten me as to a lie I could tell someone that would truely benefit us both with no repercussions?

My brother got into crystal meth about two years ago. At about the same time my mom was diagnosed with large cell lung cancer. Over the next two years my brother became an addict and my mom's condition worsened. Over the course of the last six weeks of life when she was dying my brother was nowhere to be found. She kept asking about him because she knew her time was short and she wanted to spend it with her kids. At one point she asked "is he into drugs"? My sister and I both lied to her and told her no, that he was just going through a hard time with his wife. My mom died a few weeks later.

What good would it have benefitted my mom to know, during the last few weeks of life, that her son had gone off the edge and abandoned his family? What good would it have done my sister and I who were already having to deal with the pain our mom was going through and the grief we were experiencing? Enough was enough already.

Again, lies have their place in our lives.

ed819
03-21-2008, 11:14 AM
OK here it is again o35. Ethics........this was our last discussion. Is lying ethical? Here is the scenario....if lying would benefit both, without repercussion, the person lying and the person being lyed to is it the "right" thing to do? Obviously if it doesnt benefit one or the other than it would be ethicaly wrong........discuss...and yes luke gimmie your intelligent opinion.

I don't see how a lie can benefit both parties, but if the topic is so insignificant that the lie will not make a difference then why concede to it?
:confused:

lukamar
03-21-2008, 11:25 AM
example: "you look stunning in that lingerie!"
She feels good, you get sex. Everyone wins.

But... That would be morally wrong to do because it would be self serving..:D

There is a fine line between Ethics and Morals. Maybe you have to look at the definition of the two.

Ethics -
2: involving or expressing moral approval or disapproval <ethical judgments>
3: conforming to accepted standards of conduct <ethical behavior>

Morals-
1 a: of or relating to principles of right and wrong in behavior : ethical <moral judgments> b: expressing or teaching a conception of right behavior <a moral poem> c: conforming to a standard of right behavior d: sanctioned by or operative on one's conscience or ethical judgment <a moral obligation> e: capable of right and wrong action <a moral agent>

You have to ask if you can have something that is ethically correct and morally wrong or visa versa. The answer may change from culture to culture but not from religion to religion followed by those cultures. The Koran strongly condemns lying, one of the Tenants of buddhism says the sane thing and In Christianity it's in the 10 commandments.

I don't believe you can be ethically or morally correct if you lie even if it does not directly benefit either party. If it did not have a repercussion either ethically or morally you could just tell the truth.

I'd like to hear the prof's answer to Nikonguy's question as well.

lukamar
03-21-2008, 11:35 AM
My sister and I both lied to her and told her no, that he was just going through a hard time with his wife. My mom died a few weeks later.

What good would it have done my sister and I who were already having to deal with the pain our mom was going through and the grief we were experiencing? Enough was enough already.

I don't want this to sound bad because my wife died of lung cancer and i know the trauma and pain associated with it very well.

You have to ask if not telling your mother helped her situation or your situation. I don't want to sound uncaring but she already knew because she asked you a direct question about his drug use.

This situation is exactly what the OP was asking.

BTW:- I never once lied to my wife about her situation or the problems we were having in our life at the time because of it. I know she appreciated the truthfulness of the situation.

Mark1T
03-21-2008, 11:46 AM
Lying is unethical. You have to think deeper. Why do you have to lie in the first place? The most obvious reason is because you did something dishonest in the first place, so now you think you have to cover it up. So, not only is lying unethical, it is dishonest. One lie leads to another and where you have to fabricate an entire story. Then, even in the distant future, if the truth come out from somewhere, it makes your relationship with that person an entire lie because to that other person - marriage, friendship or business relationship, he/she would justifiably have to conclude that that was not the only lie, because you broke a basic and fundamental trust.

exguitarplayer
03-21-2008, 11:50 AM
If most men did not lie we would be, "Livin in a van down by the river!"...Now that is immoral.

Ingersoll
03-21-2008, 12:01 PM
I don't want this to sound bad because my wife died of lung cancer and i know the trauma and pain associated with it very well.

You have to ask if not telling your mother helped her situation or your situation. I don't want to sound uncaring but she already knew because she asked you a direct question about his drug use.

This situation is exactly what the OP was asking.

BTW:- I never once lied to my wife about her situation or the problems we were having in our life at the time because of it. I know she appreciated the truthfulness of the situation.

Our mom was a worrier. In this situation, at that time, it would have been cruel to tell her the truth. Had my brother always been an addict, if it'd been an ongoing thing, then there would have been no reason to lie. But that wasn't the case. We believed that for once in her life she needed to worry about herself and her condition. You're familiar with the pain a cancer sufferer goes through and adding to that, in this situation would have been cruel.

She was in and out of consciousness---I'm sure you know what I'm talking about. And it wasn't just once that she asked about him. From day to day she could remember or forget any given thing. There were times when we told her that he'd be there soon, knowing with some confidence that she'd forget or be asleep from the morphine by the time we said he would be there. It was heartbreaking. But again, I still think we did the right thing by keeping the truth from her. She hated drugs; if my brother had gone to jail for comitting an act of violence, it would have sat better than her his drug use would have.

He hardly showed up anyway, the f*ck. When she decided she was done fighting it took about 6 weeks for her to go and our brother showed up twice. Some day, if he ever gets off the ****, he'll thank me for not telling my mom the truth. So in that regard, our lie will grant him some kind of misguided relief.

gbg
03-21-2008, 12:10 PM
I think lying is wrong no matter what the circumstances, there is no reason to lye, speak the truth live with it and learn from it. I think lying is sneaky and underhanded. In the end everything is
reveled.

dbx
03-21-2008, 12:11 PM
What good would it have benefitted my mom to know, during the last few weeks of life, that her son had gone off the edge and abandoned his family?

It would have benefited her to know the truth. The truth she was seeking when she asked the question. There is a big difference between offering information that isn't solicited, and giving false information knowingly. In a case like yours/hers, we'd all like to think our surviving family members are destined for success or at least, doing well....but the truth is what we all seek in this world, for better or for worse.


What good would it have done my sister and I who were already having to deal with the pain our mom was going through and the grief we were experiencing? Enough was enough already.

Crying, sadness, and emotional pain are real. And being in touch with reality, while sometimes not pretty, is again, what a lot of us seek throughout our lives. Even the hint that we're being placated can be even more hurtful, though not displayed.

gbg
03-21-2008, 12:25 PM
It would have benefited her to know the truth. The truth she was seeking when she asked the question. There is a big difference between offering information that isn't solicited, and giving false information knowingly. In a case like yours/hers, we'd all like to think our surviving family members are destined for success or at least, doing well....but the truth is what we all seek in this world, for better or for worse.



Crying, sadness, and emotional pain are real. And being in touch with reality, while sometimes not pretty, is again, what a lot of us seek throughout our lives. Even the hint that we're being placated can be even more hurtful, though not displayed.

I agree, the truth should always be told nothing good comes from lying it's not natural to lye and I don't see how it could be beneficial in any circumstances.

Ingersoll
03-21-2008, 12:28 PM
I agree, the truth should always be told nothing good comes from lying it's not natural to lye and I don't see how it could be beneficial in any circumstances.

Actually, it's very natural to lie.

To spare a dying person from even more pain... I'll never regret it.

higher-peaks
03-21-2008, 12:36 PM
example: "you look stunning in that lingerie!"
She feels good, you get sex. Everyone wins.

And you know we've all done this....example..."no honey, your but doesnt look fat in those jeans"


But... That would be morally wrong to do because it would be self serving..:D

I don't believe you can be ethically or morally correct if you lie even if it does not directly benefit either party. If it did not have a repercussion either ethically or morally you could just tell the truth.

I'd like to hear the prof's answer to Nikonguy's question as well.

First....Isn't any act of kindness self serving? Second...good point on repercussion part. I am bringing that up (ill give you credit) in class. I will post back on his answers.....and always thanks luka...you always bring up a perspective that no one else does.


There is a big difference between offering information that isn't solicited, and giving false information knowingly. In a case like yours/hers, we'd all like to think our surviving family members are destined for success or at least, doing well....but the truth is what we all seek in this world, for better or for worse.

2 good points here. Repped...


A lot of things are just best not said. What you don't know wont hurt you, right?

good point and was said above as well.

.


You have to ask if not telling your mother helped her situation or your situation.

This is what I was saying....deeper question is as the lyer are we capable of deciding that it benefits either person? Good info Luka will rep when I've passed enough out.

gbg
03-21-2008, 12:38 PM
Actually, it's very natural to lie.

To spare a dying person from even more pain... I'll never regret it.

I'm sorry to here about your mom. Lying is not natural for me.

lukamar
03-21-2008, 12:39 PM
Actually, it's very natural to lie.



I don't think so. I think it's a problem with moral fiber. Once you start to lie where do you stop. While it's natural to lie to the cop that pulls you over for speeding and tell him that you were not going that fast. Is that any more correct than telling him you did not rob the bank who's cash was in your trunk.



It's a long slippery slope once you jump off the edge you have to ask yourself if you have the ethical and moral strength to claw your way back.

Another thing that just struck me is how do you set a moral and ethical example to your children if they see you lying. It's hard to adjust their behavior when they are just following your example.

I should add that this is not aimed at you Ingersoll, just thoughts on your statement.

TANK25
03-21-2008, 12:41 PM
I think lying is wrong no matter what the circumstances, there is no reason to lye, speak the truth live with it and learn from it. I think lying is sneaky and underhanded. In the end everything is
reveled.
Sister I agree to a point.I have a son 10 and a daugther 12.Two years ago they gave me a shirt for my birthday.LMOA,let`s just say it was not my style.There is no way in hell would I have told them I didn`t like it.

gbg
03-21-2008, 12:46 PM
Sister I agree to a point.I have a son 10 and a daugther 12.Two years ago they gave me a shirt for my birthday.LMOA,let`s just say it was not my style.There is no way in hell would I have told them I didn`t like it.

You got me on that one! :) Hey just realized your my Big brother :D

higher-peaks
03-21-2008, 12:54 PM
Actually, it's very natural to lie.

Thats something to consider. Everyone has lyed and everyone will lye again.

Inthegrass
03-21-2008, 12:59 PM
I've learned the very hard way that a lie, no matter how good its intensions were, is still a lie and it just breaks down all trust in the end.

Jeff

MA$$BUILDER
03-21-2008, 01:04 PM
But... That would be morally wrong to do because it would be self serving..:D

There is a fine line between Ethics and Morals. Maybe you have to look at the definition of the two.

Ethics -
2: involving or expressing moral approval or disapproval <ethical judgments>
3: conforming to accepted standards of conduct <ethical behavior>

Morals-
1 a: of or relating to principles of right and wrong in behavior : ethical <moral judgments> b: expressing or teaching a conception of right behavior <a moral poem> c: conforming to a standard of right behavior d: sanctioned by or operative on one's conscience or ethical judgment <a moral obligation> e: capable of right and wrong action <a moral agent>

You have to ask if you can have something that is ethically correct and morally wrong or visa versa. The answer may change from culture to culture but not from religion to religion followed by those cultures. The Koran strongly condemns lying, one of the Tenants of buddhism says the sane thing and In Christianity it's in the 10 commandments.

I don't believe you can be ethically or morally correct if you lie even if it does not directly benefit either party. If it did not have a repercussion either ethically or morally you could just tell the truth.

I'd like to hear the prof's answer to Nikonguy's question as well.

There are many view points and ways to look at ethics. One is utilitarianism by John Mills and others that would allow for people to lie if it meant that it would maximize the most happiness. So, telling a chick that she looks good to make her happy and to give you some satisfaction is ok, since it maximizes both parties happiness. Overall, as a general and broad sense, lying is unethical in most circles and view points.

MA$$BUILDER
03-21-2008, 01:05 PM
I've learned the very hard way that a lie, no matter how good its intensions were, is still a lie and it just breaks down all trust in the end.

Jeff

I disagree. "white lies" are sometimes ok in some situations and bear no real consequence. I am for utilitarianism for the most part.

lukamar
03-21-2008, 01:08 PM
Thats something to consider. Everyone has lyed and everyone will lye again.

But that doesn't make it ethical or moral to do so.

Many people on here have killed others in a war situation does that make it correct to shoot your neighbor for mowing the lawn at 8am on Easter Sunday morning? After all you could argue they have killed before. I think not the same thinking should apply to lying.

If you have done something, we are talking unethical and/or immoral here, does it make it right to do it again and again? I see that as an excuse to allow yourself to do it again rather than take the high ground and tell the truth in the first place.

xMichaelx
03-21-2008, 01:19 PM
"white lies" are sometimes ok in some situations and bear no real consequence.
Agreed.

I believe that the natural state of things is to tell the truth, and when you lie, you've allowed someone else to control you.

If a loved one gives me a tie I don't like and I pretend to like it, I can do it because I'm comfortable with giving someone I care about that level of control (esp. given that the consequences are generally positive).

OTOH, I would never lie to someone outside of this type of situation, because they have no control over me -- no one does.

higher-peaks
03-21-2008, 02:08 PM
But that doesn't make it ethical or moral to do so.

Many people on here have killed others in a war situation does that make it correct to shoot your neighbor for mowing the lawn at 8am on Easter Sunday morning? After all you could argue they have killed before. I think not the same thinking should apply to lying.

If you have done something, we are talking unethical and/or immoral here, does it make it right to do it again and again? I see that as an excuse to allow yourself to do it again rather than take the high ground and tell the truth in the first place.

yes I agree and I don't use it as an excuse. I have found the truth to be easier and no matter how bad it is people give you respect for truth.....

JOHN GARGANI
03-21-2008, 02:34 PM
"where ignorance is bliss, 'tis folly to be wise"


good words......"white" lies are more in the area of Tact and social etiquette.....

there is little to be gained sometimes by hurting someone's feelings.....


Ingersoll did the right thing...it would have been unimaginable to add that hurt to a loved one already dying of cancer.......

being brutally honest, up to a point, becomes a fault in itself.

higher-peaks
03-21-2008, 02:35 PM
"where ignorance is bliss, 'tis folly to be wise"


good words......"white" lies are more in the area of Tact and social etiquette.....

there is little to be gained sometimes by hurting someone's feelings.....


Ingersoll did the right thing...it would have been unimaginable to add that hurt to a loved one already dying of cancer.......

being brutally honest, up to a point, becomes a fault in itself.

So what you are saying is some types of lying are not only ethical and moral but also necessary?

Minotaur
03-21-2008, 02:40 PM
About 17 years ago I told a lie in a very serious situation, that I am now not proud of. I regretted it almost immediately. I did it to help someone, but it did no good. The gods favored me by not having it backfire. If it had, let's just say I would have been a guest of the state at the Graybar Hotel.

I'm not a fan of lying as a matter of course, I never have been despite the aforementioned situation; I'm not a good liar (how I got away in that situation is beyond me, except for the favor of the gods); I do believe that a well-placed lie is sometimes necessary to spare someone's feelings or prevent harm. It depends on the circumstances. But it can backfire. It's a tightrope.

Ingersoll
03-21-2008, 03:52 PM
I don't think so. I think it's a problem with moral fiber. Once you start to lie where do you stop. While it's natural to lie to the cop that pulls you over for speeding and tell him that you were not going that fast. Is that any more correct than telling him you did not rob the bank who's cash was in your trunk.



It's a long slippery slope once you jump off the edge you have to ask yourself if you have the ethical and moral strength to claw your way back.

Another thing that just struck me is how do you set a moral and ethical example to your children if they see you lying. It's hard to adjust their behavior when they are just following your example.

I should add that this is not aimed at you Ingersoll, just thoughts on your statement.

When I said that lying is perfectly natural, what I mean is that it's something that is universal to human existence. Everyone lies about something at some point. The frequency and size of the lie(s) vary depending on person and circumstance, but it is something that everyone does.

I think what would help the conversation is to define what it means to lie to another person.

So:

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source - Share This
lie1 /laɪ/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[lahy] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation noun, verb, lied, ly?ing.
?noun 1. a false statement made with deliberate intent to deceive; an intentional untruth; a falsehood.
2. something intended or serving to convey a false impression; imposture: His flashy car was a lie that deceived no one.
3. an inaccurate or false statement.

There's several other definitions but these serve nicely enough.

When someone asks how your day was, do you always tell the truth? I know I don't. For example, if a co-worker were to ask me how things were at home, I might just tell them that everything's fine, even if in fact I were to be going through a nasty divorce. I simply am better served by keeping such personal details to myself for many obvious reasons. Now, I have indeed lied to the co-worker but so what?

There are also times when we need to go through an experience and deal with it on our own. Who here hasn't ever answered "Nothing" when someone close to them has perceived a problem and asked if something's wrong? Or, "hey wife/husband, how was work today?" And you answer, "fine" when in fact it may have been a horrible day at the office. The fact is you just aren't ready to discuss it yet.

This also means that people accept that they are being lied to on a basis of varying consistency. It's part of what needs to be done in order to get along with each other and not having fights break out on a daily basis.

Some people are dishonest and don't even know it. Like the person who says that everything's great all the time. They may actually believe that everything's great; but you know, for whatever reason, that they're heading for catastrophe and are simply ignoring the train that's about to hit them. Is that person a liar or have elements of their basic psychological structure come into play due to past experience telling them that maybe if they just ignore something it will go away?

Like most everything else, there's a tiny bit of black on one end, a tiny bit of white on the other; in between there are a million shades of gray.

Even animals exhibit dishonest behavior. I wish I had the link to back that one up but I'm already long winded in this post.

JOHN GARGANI
03-21-2008, 04:06 PM
So what you are saying is some types of lying are not only ethical and moral but also necessary?

HIGHER: always remember: there are NO Absolutes in life...NONE! there is nothing, that in every single circumstance can be judged identically the same.

everything must be scrutinized before laying judgement.

that applies to not only lying, but stealing, killing and many other things.....


thus the phrase: "guilty with an explanation"


want some examples?


1. A. you are driving down Ave "A" at 60 MPH, in a 30MPH zone in a white Grand cherokee: your wife is in the backseat, her water broken, about to have a baby, and you are rushing to the hospital

1. B. you are driving down Ave "A" at 60 MPH , in a 30 MPH zone in a white Grand cherokee: you are with a couple of friends, all of you drunk and the car is jacked.


are both "speeding"???? who would the law come down on hardest if stopped by the police????


identical cars, avenues and MPH, identical....but different situations.

2. A. you are stationed in IRAQ: in a raid, you bust into a house suspected of Al Quaida, as you come in, Iraqi "X" raises a gun to you, you fire your Ak-47, one shot, into the head, he is dead.

2. B. you are stationed in IRAQ: in a raid, you bust into a house suspected of Al Quaida, as you come in, Iraqi "X" is sitting eating dinner with his wife and children, as he looks up to you, you fire your Ak-47, one shot, into the head, he is dead.


identical gun, identical bullet, identical person, identical target ( head )..one shot one kill....

however: in 2. A: you are doing your duty and in 2. B: you are violating the Geneva convention and subject to Court Martial.


I could go on and on and on: circumstantial situations DO count in life, in many many varied ways......


so if even these things could come under scrutiny, so could a lie.

lukamar
03-21-2008, 05:08 PM
I might just tell them that everything's fine, even if in fact I were to be going through a nasty divorce. I simply am better served by keeping such personal details to myself for many obvious reasons. Now, I have indeed lied to the co-worker but so what?

There are also times when we need to go through an experience and deal with it on our own. Who here hasn't ever answered "Nothing" when someone close to them has perceived a problem and asked if something's wrong? Or, "hey wife/husband, how was work today?" And you answer, "fine" when in fact it may have been a horrible day at the office. The fact is you just aren't ready to discuss it yet.



You make a couple of good points but what you are doing is withholding personal information in an informal situation, not telling a lie. There is a difference here too.

Now if your co-worker asked you if you had ever been in Jail and you said "NO", when you actually had been, that would be a lie. if you said "I can't remember I may have been drunk" and laughed that would be withholding information and deflecting the question and not lying.

Inthegrass
03-21-2008, 05:12 PM
You make a couple of good points but what you are doing is withholding personal information in an informal situation, not telling a lie. There is a difference here too.

Now if your co-worker asked you if you had ever been in Jail and you said "NO", when you actually had been, that would be a lie. if you said "I can't remember I may have been drunk" and laughed that would be withholding information and deflecting the question and not lying.

What's the difference then between an omission and a lie?? I would consider them to be the same thing.

Jeff

lukamar
03-21-2008, 05:19 PM
I could go on and on and on: circumstantial situations DO count in life, in many many varied ways......


so if even these things could come under scrutiny, so could a lie.

I like that John..

In situation 1B of the driving scenario you have broken more than one law (speeding) - Speeding and DUI and I have no idea what a Jacked car is but it sounds illegal as well.

In Iraq if you brought in another gun and said the dinner party had it you would indeed be lying. I'm wondering what side the shooter is actually on because I didn't think the US forces used AK's..:D

dbx
03-21-2008, 05:23 PM
....I have no idea what a Jacked car is but it sounds illegal as well.

Boy, you Canadian guys! :p I think car jacking was invented in Atlanta. Or at least, it is a major sport here :)

it's when you see a car you like while you're on foot, you simply pull a gun when said car is stopped (like...at a light) and scream at the occupants of the car to get the fucl< out. Then you take a nice drive. Oh, and always make sure there isn't a little kid in the back ;)

lukamar
03-21-2008, 05:25 PM
Boy, you Canadian guys! :p I think car jacking was invented in Atlanta. Or at least, it is a major sport here :)




Ohhh... Road Hockey...:D

tjrob
03-21-2008, 06:12 PM
ok....but this is correct what you say. the first lie benefits both parties...the second only benefits the liar....so it's true that if it benefits both then it's ok?


I would agree...

chodan9
03-21-2008, 06:43 PM
Lies have their place but I believe they are only valid in very narrow sets of circumstances.
One thing I think of is, I can never know how far the Lie can carry.
For instance
a guy works on a loading doc
his boss asks him "did you load that pallet I asked you to load?"
he lies and says "I sure did!" they both clock out and go home neither are hurt. The the next shift comes in and has to load that pallet that he was supposed to load putting him behind for the entire shift. So in this case neither the liar or the person lied to were hurt, but someone was still hurt.

Bando
03-21-2008, 07:04 PM
I teach my kids not to lie, it's one of the 10 commandments but perhaps as important - lying doesn't work.

My wife was brought up in a household where if a lie was easier than the truth, just do the lie. Her parents always lie to the 88 year old grampa about things, like who paid for what car, who's having marriage troubles, who is having trouble in school. Funny thing is, Gramp always sees through these elaborate lies and they look silly trying to tell bigger lies to cover up. When I'm told I need to support a lie, I simply say "no, thats a lie." They get offended and scurry around trying to fix their story in case I'm asked for the truth.

It's the same way at work, if I screw up, I fess up. Some of my biggest promotions have come from supervisors that saw I had the character to be truthful when my own neck was on the line.

I can see situations where if a lie can comfort someone on their deathbead it may be in order. I think the practice follows the preaching though, lies really don't work as a practice, I've never met an accomplished liar who thrives for long.

LongnHard
03-21-2008, 07:32 PM
This is an awesome thread! Why do we lie in the first place? Fear. Fear of getting in trouble, fear of hurting someone... but it really all comes down to the fear of being real. To live where you never lie is to live every moment being who you really are. It doesn't mean you have to heartless and cruel, although you may be called that. It means you understand that everything is not pleasent and everone is not going to like you. It's not your job to be sure everyone feels good about themselves. And it's not your job to decide what other people can handle and what they can't. If you are not honest with someone you have not even given them the chance to be real. Do I live a lie free life? I wish I could say I do. But I know it is the right way to live and I try my best to be honest and real. No judgement here on anything that anyone else has said before me. I am just offering two cents.

lukamar
03-21-2008, 07:34 PM
Some of my biggest promotions have come from supervisors that saw I had the character to be truthful when my own neck was on the line.



I've always figured that if i was asked, at work, for my opinion I would give it truthfully. Often I've amazed myself that i wasn't fired on the spot.

In one case when I was managing a food service business one of the two owners asked me how they should go about taking the business to the next level. I told her buy out this guy (the other partner, her husband) she didn't and the place went broke within 6 months. Years later she told me that she should have followed my advice, even though they are still happily married, just not in business together.

Another time when I worked for Scanmar Seafoods one of the principals (From Norway) asked me what I would do if I owned the company. I said I would divest my interests in Canada as it was getting too regulated here and stay in the European market that they knew well. Within a year Bergen Seafoods A/S pulled out of Canada and is now just in Norway. Problem with that one was i lost my job which was super well paying and had an incredible benefit package, watterfront office, float plane, jet boat etc.....LOL

goddessamazon
03-21-2008, 07:37 PM
This is an awesome thread! Why do we lie in the first place? Fear. Fear of getting in trouble, fear of hurting someone... but it really all comes down to the fear of being real. To live where you never lie is to live every moment being who you really are. It doesn't mean you have to heartless and cruel, although you may be called that. It means you understand that everything is not pleasent and everone is not going to like you. It's not your job to be sure everyone feels good about themselves. And it's not your job to decide what other people can handle and what they can't. If you are not honest with someone you have not even given them the chance to be real. Do I live a lie free life? I wish I could say I do. But I know it is the right way to live and I try my best to be honest and real. No judgement here on anything that anyone else has said before me. I am just offering two cents.

Jon that was not two cent but a dollar's worth. Excellent post my friend.

BTW - I ALWAYS lie to people I don't trust or like but never lie to people I respect and adore. :)

Bando
03-21-2008, 07:51 PM
This is an awesome thread! Why do we lie in the first place? Fear. Fear of getting in trouble, fear of hurting someone... but it really all comes down to the fear of being real. To live where you never lie is to live every moment being who you really are. It doesn't mean you have to heartless and cruel, although you may be called that. It means you understand that everything is not pleasent and everone is not going to like you. It's not your job to be sure everyone feels good about themselves. And it's not your job to decide what other people can handle and what they can't. If you are not honest with someone you have not even given them the chance to be real. Do I live a lie free life? I wish I could say I do. But I know it is the right way to live and I try my best to be honest and real. No judgement here on anything that anyone else has said before me. I am just offering two cents.


Jon that was not two cent but a dollar's worth. Excellent post my friend.



x3 bro

Tyrbolift
03-21-2008, 10:47 PM
Jon that was not two cent but a dollar's worth. Excellent post my friend.

BTW - I ALWAYS lie to people I don't trust or like but never lie to people I respect and adore. :)x2 A.G.

Sometimes, it's just none of their business to ask certain personal questions, or you don't want them to know certain things, like how much you paid for something, or your plans for tonight, and so on.

Some people will take certain info they find out about you and use it against you or cause you or loved ones harm in some way.

Also, being a supervisor at work means that sometimes you just have to keep certain thoughts and activities of management under wraps...even when subordinates grill you and grill you.

Anyone who goes around with every nuance and detail of their life worn on their sleeve today is being a fool, IMO.

jawter
03-21-2008, 11:16 PM
I don't think so. I think it's a problem with moral fiber. Once you start to lie where do you stop. While it's natural to lie to the cop that pulls you over for speeding and tell him that you were not going that fast. Is that any more correct than telling him you did not rob the bank who's cash was in your trunk.



It's a long slippery slope once you jump off the edge you have to ask yourself if you have the ethical and moral strength to claw your way back.

Another thing that just struck me is how do you set a moral and ethical example to your children if they see you lying. It's hard to adjust their behavior when they are just following your example.

I should add that this is not aimed at you Ingersoll, just thoughts on your statement.

Good points that I agree with. The only other thing I have to say on the subject is read my signature.

lukamar
03-21-2008, 11:27 PM
The only other thing I have to say on the subject is read my signature.

:D Read my back.. I have tattooed on it in Chinese "Trust".

You can't have trust unless you also have truth and you can't have truth or trust if you lie.

MA$$BUILDER
03-22-2008, 01:49 AM
This is an awesome thread! Why do we lie in the first place? Fear. Fear of getting in trouble, fear of hurting someone... but it really all comes down to the fear of being real. To live where you never lie is to live every moment being who you really are. It doesn't mean you have to heartless and cruel, although you may be called that. It means you understand that everything is not pleasent and everone is not going to like you. It's not your job to be sure everyone feels good about themselves. And it's not your job to decide what other people can handle and what they can't. If you are not honest with someone you have not even given them the chance to be real. Do I live a lie free life? I wish I could say I do. But I know it is the right way to live and I try my best to be honest and real. No judgement here on anything that anyone else has said before me. I am just offering two cents.

If everyone kept it real, then a lot of people's happiness could be less than maximized. White lies are sometimes ok. Also, if someone is a liar, then to live lie free would not be who they really are.

Overall, I am against lying as a whole. I try not to lie for religious and personal ethical reasons, but, if I want to tell a half truth to maximize happiness, then that is who i am and i will do it.

LongnHard
03-22-2008, 06:29 AM
x2 A.G.

Sometimes, it's just none of their business to ask certain personal questions, or you don't want them to know certain things, like how much you paid for something, or your plans for tonight, and so on.

Some people will take certain info they find out about you and use it against you or cause you or loved ones harm in some way.

Also, being a supervisor at work means that sometimes you just have to keep certain thoughts and activities of management under wraps...even when subordinates grill you and grill you.

Anyone who goes around with every nuance and detail of their life worn on their sleeve today is being a fool, IMO.

It's very easy to just tell someone who has become too familiar by aksing too personal questions to back off. A "I really don't care to discuss that with you" or a "now why would you ever think to ask me that?" usually re-establishes the boundries.

I also am in management and I am sometimes surprized when people ask for information they clearly know whould be inappropriate for me to share with them. Easy enought to simply say I am not at liberty to discuss that.

Keeping sensitive personal and business matters to yourself is not lieing. And I agree with you that you do not owe it to anyone to keep them informed on the details of your life. But avoiding telling outright lies to accomplish that is the best way to go about that IMO.

Minotaur
03-22-2008, 09:00 AM
Sometimes, it's just none of their business to ask certain personal questions, or you don't want them to know certain things, like how much you paid for something, or your plans for tonight, and so on.


Because I work with a woman who is a busybody and keeps me under a microscope (I've posted about this in the past... she has a fascination with me, possible a hero worship), I've learned to say "Um, I'd rather not talk about that" or something to the effect, with a weak smile.

I think more than deserving a lie, pointed personal questions, because they are rude, deserve an abrupt and/or cut-off-at-the-knees answer.

goddessamazon
03-22-2008, 09:56 AM
It's very easy to just tell someone who has become too familiar by aksing too personal questions to back off. A "I really don't care to discuss that with you" or a "now why would you ever think to ask me that?" usually re-establishes the boundries.

I also am in management and I am sometimes surprized when people ask for information they clearly know whould be inappropriate for me to share with them. Easy enought to simply say I am not at liberty to discuss that.

Keeping sensitive personal and business matters to yourself is not lieing. And I agree with you that you do not owe it to anyone to keep them informed on the details of your life. But avoiding telling outright lies to accomplish that is the best way to go about that IMO.

I tried that route. I use to say "Why would you ask me that?" or "Nothing personal but I don't want to discuss that with you" or my personal favorite "None of your business."

But when I say those things they either A) Think I'm being b*cthy thus giving me attitude from then on out or B) Ask me the same question again another time.

For example, a couple of years ago a family member (who I never trusted) asked me if I was getting a tax refund that year because she wanted to borrow money from me. Now I could have said yes and this would cause her to ask the next question "How much?" which would make me say "None of your business". After that then here comes the attitude and the drama but if I just lied and said "I don't get a refund because I owe the government money." then that would be the end of that subject. In turn I get no attitude, no more questions and no begging me for money.

Lying to certain people about certain situations works for me. I don't like stress so if lying reduces that stress then that's what I'll do. :)

Tyrbolift
03-22-2008, 10:58 AM
It's very easy to just tell someone who has become too familiar by aksing too personal questions to back off. A "I really don't care to discuss that with you" or a "now why would you ever think to ask me that?" usually re-establishes the boundries.

I also am in management and I am sometimes surprized when people ask for information they clearly know whould be inappropriate for me to share with them. Easy enought to simply say I am not at liberty to discuss that.

Keeping sensitive personal and business matters to yourself is not lieing. And I agree with you that you do not owe it to anyone to keep them informed on the details of your life. But avoiding telling outright lies to accomplish that is the best way to go about that IMO.I see what you're saying, and I really try to avoid outright lying because it really DOES weave a tangled web. But occasionally an "I don't know" or "I'm not sure" works a lot better than to indicate that you know something and are not telling.

higher-peaks
03-22-2008, 10:48 PM
This is an awesome thread! Why do we lie in the first place? Fear. Fear of getting in trouble, fear of hurting someone... but it really all comes down to the fear of being real. To live where you never lie is to live every moment being who you really are. It doesn't mean you have to heartless and cruel, although you may be called that. It means you understand that everything is not pleasent and everone is not going to like you. It's not your job to be sure everyone feels good about themselves. And it's not your job to decide what other people can handle and what they can't. If you are not honest with someone you have not even given them the chance to be real. Do I live a lie free life? I wish I could say I do. But I know it is the right way to live and I try my best to be honest and real. No judgement here on anything that anyone else has said before me. I am just offering two cents.

repped .....best post yet


Jon that was not two cent but a dollar's worth. Excellent post my friend.

yup!

BTW - I ALWAYS lie to people I don't trust or like but never lie to people I respect and adore. :)

keep that in mind


If everyone kept it real, then a lot of people's happiness could be less than maximized. White lies are sometimes ok. Also, if someone is a liar, then to live lie free would not be who they really are.

Overall, I am against lying as a whole. I try not to lie for religious and personal ethical reasons, but, if I want to tell a half truth to maximize happiness, then that is who i am and i will do it.

thats my boy......keep it real



It's very easy to just tell someone who has become too familiar by aksing too personal questions to back off. A "I really don't care to discuss that with you" or a "now why would you ever think to ask me that?" usually re-establishes the boundries.

I also am in management and I am sometimes surprized when people ask for information they clearly know whould be inappropriate for me to share with them. Easy enought to simply say I am not at liberty to discuss that.

Keeping sensitive personal and business matters to yourself is not lieing. And I agree with you that you do not owe it to anyone to keep them informed on the details of your life. But avoiding telling outright lies to accomplish that is the best way to go about that IMO.

reps like I said ty for bringing your opinion here.....I appreciate that


I see what you're saying, and I really try to avoid outright lying because it really DOES weave a tangled web. But occasionally an "I don't know" or "I'm not sure" works a lot better than to indicate that you know something and are not telling.

yup!

oldsuperman
03-22-2008, 10:59 PM
Karma.

What goes around comes around.

The law of the harvest, what you sew, you reap.

Do unto other as you would do unto yourself.

Pretty easy answer for me.

higher-peaks
03-23-2008, 11:29 AM
Karma.

What goes around comes around.

The law of the harvest, what you sew, you reap.

Do unto other as you would do unto yourself.

Pretty easy answer for me.

say it any way you like......but it gets down to this......do you want to pay a price for something that you dont know how much it costs???? thats the ?

JOHN GARGANI
03-23-2008, 01:27 PM
Karma.

What goes around comes around.

The law of the harvest, what you sew, you reap.

Do unto other as you would do unto yourself.

Pretty easy answer for me.

Right, and if you tell some woman her Hair looks alright after a beauty parlor visit of 2 hours, when you really think it doesn't, that is going to "come around" and cause you serious grief sometime in the future????


I notice that NO ONE, except Lukamar, answered to the logic of my last post, including Higher Peaks to which it was pointed.


Lying is simply TOO BROAD a category of activity to apply universal consequences to it......

chodan9
03-23-2008, 02:42 PM
Lying is simply TOO BROAD a category of activity to apply universal consequences to it......


I agree,

I also think some people use the truth as a club or as a license to be a @$$hole.
they say something rude or hurtful to someone else and wave it away with the phrase "I'm just an honest person who speaks my mind" well you dont have to live with the results of that casual use of the "truth".
Not to mention that the truth isnt always the same from person to person. Pespective plays into it also

IR45N
03-23-2008, 03:02 PM
OK here it is again o35. Ethics........this was our last discussion. Is lying ethical? Here is the scenario....if lying would benefit both, without repercussion, the person lying and the person being lyed to is it the "right" thing to do? Obviously if it doesnt benefit one or the other than it would be ethicaly wrong........discuss...and yes luke gimmie your intelligent opinion.

Been wanting to ask is this exactly the professor's question/scenario?
The question is pretty general & just because a professor asks it; doesn't mean it's a good question....not knocking you, HP, just a point.

You also need to be careful assuming anything deemed 'ethical' is good or the right thing.

The scenario you laid out, imho, is for the person 'lying' doesn't feel any repercussions...guilt, remorse; or if they do occur after the fact, then there 'were' repercussions for at least one. If the person being lied to doesn't ever get any repercussions; then they're no better or worse off than if they hadn't had any contact with the liar. (now, even I'm unsure if this last part makes sense).

Is the question....if it's going to be generalized....who's more apt to have some fallout (good or bad) from a lie; the liar or the recipient? And then, I suppose, is it necessary to then decide whether the good outweighs the bad or vice versa.

Karma; not sure how that got in here; I don't buy into it but if one feels comfortable believing in it; fine. Doesn't really explain Castro outliving so many more admired people; nor the OLD saying 'Nice guys finish last'; again, just a saying, but has stood the test of time via some validity.

JOHN GARGANI
03-23-2008, 03:39 PM
I agree,

I also think some people use the truth as a club or as a license to be a @$$hole.
they say something rude or hurtful to someone else and wave it away with the phrase "I'm just an honest person who speaks my mind" well you dont have to live with the results of that casual use of the "truth".
Not to mention that the truth isnt always the same from person to person. Pespective plays into it also

you go Chody baby!!!!!

Minotaur
03-23-2008, 03:42 PM
Truth is relative, sometimes... depends on your point of view.

Bando
03-23-2008, 04:53 PM
For example, a couple of years ago a family member (who I never trusted) asked me if I was getting a tax refund that year because she wanted to borrow money from me. Now I could have said yes and this would cause her to ask the next question "How much?" which would make me say "None of your business". After that then here comes the attitude and the drama but if I just lied and said "I don't get a refund because I owe the government money." then that would be the end of that subject. In turn I get no attitude, no more questions and no begging me for money.

I've walked in your shoes. We keep a large emergency fund, around 10k. My in laws live paycheck to paycheck, since they're bad with money somehow their emergency becomes our emergency. No more. If asked, we're broke. And yes, thats a lie.

mic65frit
03-23-2008, 05:17 PM
Lying to the one you love, about a dress you hate knowing she loves it, isn't a bad thing.



But do not I repeat DO NOT hesitate with said lie hidden as a compliment when she asks if the jeans make her butt look big or not...don't hesitate, don't flinch, don't look around or off to the right...just say "I Love you Honey"!


I guess that's what is called a white lie, but seriously, a lie is a lie no matter how noble the intentions.

Just my thought and my ethos on the subject

mic65frit
03-23-2008, 05:21 PM
I've walked in your shoes. We keep a large emergency fund, around 10k. My in laws live paycheck to paycheck, since they're bad with money somehow their emergency becomes our emergency. No more. If asked, we're broke. And yes, thats a lie.


"Neither a borrower nor a lender be;
For loan oft loses both itself and friend,
And borrowing dulls the edge of husbandry"

Bill Shakespheare, 1603

Bando
03-23-2008, 05:45 PM
Proverbs 22:7
"The rich ruleth over the poor, and the borrower is servant to the lender."

"When lending money to friend, decide which is more important"
Anonymous

I wish these were loans, then I could expect some $$$ back, these were forced "gifts"


"Neither a borrower nor a lender be;
For loan oft loses both itself and friend,
And borrowing dulls the edge of husbandry"

Bill Shakespheare, 1603

higher-peaks
03-24-2008, 08:22 AM
Been wanting to ask is this exactly the professor's question/scenario?

Is the question....if it's going to be generalized....who's more apt to have some fallout (good or bad) from a lie; the liar or the recipient? And then, I suppose, is it necessary to then decide whether the good outweighs the bad or vice versa.

Well, basically this was his question^. But what we got deeper into was is any liar capable of deciding the outcome of the lie and its consequences good or bad. There will be consequences for sure but will they be good or bad? And if they end up being good (which they could) then is the lie appropriate. There are numerous examples of how a lie may benefit both parties although as stated it is all perspective. Sorry it is general.

higher-peaks
03-24-2008, 08:25 AM
But do not I repeat DO NOT hesitate with said lie hidden as a compliment when she asks if the jeans make her butt look big or not...don't hesitate, don't flinch, don't look around or off to the right...just say "I Love you Honey"!


LOL

rea99
03-24-2008, 09:03 AM
I agree,

I also think some people use the truth as a club or as a license to be a @$$hole.
they say something rude or hurtful to someone else and wave it away with the phrase "I'm just an honest person who speaks my mind"


"The ill-timed truth we might have kept--
Who knows how sharp it pierced and stung?
~Edward Rowland Sill

jawter
03-24-2008, 10:02 AM
But do not I repeat DO NOT hesitate with said lie hidden as a compliment when she asks if the jeans make her butt look big or not...don't hesitate, don't flinch, don't look around or off to the right...just say "I Love you Honey"!


I guess that's what is called a white lie, but seriously, a lie is a lie no matter how noble the intentions.

Just my thought and my ethos on the subject


This is not a lie or even a white lie if you truley love her. Avoidance of answering a question is not lying, it being what is often referred to as being "Politically Correct".

higher-peaks
03-24-2008, 10:09 AM
This is not a lie or even a white lie if you truley love her. Avoidance of answering a question is not lying, it being what is often referred to as being "Politically Correct".

agreed .......socail grace maybe?

MA$$BUILDER
03-24-2008, 02:00 PM
Right, and if you tell some woman her Hair looks alright after a beauty parlor visit of 2 hours, when you really think it doesn't, that is going to "come around" and cause you serious grief sometime in the future????


I notice that NO ONE, except Lukamar, answered to the logic of my last post, including Higher Peaks to which it was pointed.


Lying is simply TOO BROAD a category of activity to apply universal consequences to it......

I'm with u! It's way too broad and there are lots of different ethical models.

Tyrbolift
03-24-2008, 02:19 PM
I've walked in your shoes. We keep a large emergency fund, around 10k. My in laws live paycheck to paycheck, since they're bad with money somehow their emergency becomes our emergency. No more. If asked, we're broke. And yes, thats a lie."Lack of planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part."

lukamar
03-24-2008, 03:41 PM
"Lack of planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part."

My family in Thailand thinks that the streets are paved in Gold in the Americas. They would always ask for money and my wife would be the one saying No all the time.

They just don't realize that a cheap lunch for two here is $10 and there it's $1.40. Her mother was bugging her for money a while back, when we came back to canada they moved into our house, I simply said we could rent the house out and give them the rent money. They worked it out and realized that they would come out with cash but without a free roof over their head. The whining stopped fast.

Luk's sister just started a restaurant and wanted us to "invest" I made them do a business plan and then I took it and told them where they needed to cut costs and that they would have to improve sales from their projection by over 20% just to break even. I also told them that they probably would not make their payments the first month and that it was too risky to invest in. They went ahead anyway putting up their house as collateral. At the end of the first month they were in the hole and we bailed them out. We didn't look at it as a handout as they were trying hard to make a better life and a decent living.
I really don't mind helping someone if they are trying to help themselves. I got bailed out a few times but I'll be damned if I'll just give out a handout for someone that is lazy or won't at least try.

I should add that we are not total asses about money. We often pay for hospital related stuff and when my sister in law had her baby we just sent some money as a present so she could hire a nanny for a month while she recuperated.

higher-peaks
03-24-2008, 06:10 PM
HIGHER: always remember: there are NO Absolutes in life...NONE! there is nothing, that in every single circumstance can be judged identically the same.

everything must be scrutinized before laying judgement.

that applies to not only lying, but stealing, killing and many other things.....


thus the phrase: "guilty with an explanation"


want some examples?


1. A. you are driving down Ave "A" at 60 MPH, in a 30MPH zone in a white Grand cherokee: your wife is in the backseat, her water broken, about to have a baby, and you are rushing to the hospital

1. B. you are driving down Ave "A" at 60 MPH , in a 30 MPH zone in a white Grand cherokee: you are with a couple of friends, all of you drunk and the car is jacked.


are both "speeding"???? who would the law come down on hardest if stopped by the police????


identical cars, avenues and MPH, identical....but different situations.

2. A. you are stationed in IRAQ: in a raid, you bust into a house suspected of Al Quaida, as you come in, Iraqi "X" raises a gun to you, you fire your Ak-47, one shot, into the head, he is dead.

2. B. you are stationed in IRAQ: in a raid, you bust into a house suspected of Al Quaida, as you come in, Iraqi "X" is sitting eating dinner with his wife and children, as he looks up to you, you fire your Ak-47, one shot, into the head, he is dead.


identical gun, identical bullet, identical person, identical target ( head )..one shot one kill....

however: in 2. A: you are doing your duty and in 2. B: you are violating the Geneva convention and subject to Court Martial.


I could go on and on and on: circumstantial situations DO count in life, in many many varied ways......


so if even these things could come under scrutiny, so could a lie.

I absolutly agree with this point. I def know that there is no absolutes and sorry I didn't reply......my one question now for you is: Does the person lieing who is in a good mental condition with assumed good judgement have the ability to decern or judge the outcome or is that outcome not capable of such judgement? We can't possibly see the outcome (its to subjective) IMHO and therefore makes it very difficult to say if said lie is appropriate.......and this is just a view not the absolute truth which is why I ask.....

bulldog71
03-24-2008, 07:37 PM
Nothing is a lie until you get caught! MOST of us have lied, and do on a regular basis, i.e. when asked "How's it going?" We give a pre-conditioned, or knee jerk response, that isn't always 100% true! You can't apply the "it's only a lie if.........." mentality to it. Either it is, or it isn't. If we have no quantifiable way to determine the definition of a lie, then that lends itself to be completely subjective. If it's subjective, then it only exists in the reality of the individual and not everyone. Therefore if it isn't everyone's reality, then how can something that's non-existent in your reality harm you? You can try to put the "moral" tag on it all that you'd like, however, morals are a religious ideal. If, I am an agnostic or an atheist, then how do you expect me to follow the ideals of a religion that I do not subscribe to? The very definition of the word "moral" is subjective and therefore doesn't apply to all of the people all of the time.

fognozzle
03-24-2008, 08:58 PM
We can't possibly see the outcome (its to subjective) IMHO and therefore makes it very difficult to say if said lie is appropriate.......and this is just a view not the absolute truth which is why I ask.....

x2

You can't possibly know exactly how the lie will be received to determine its pos/neg direct effect and or indirect effect (picture the butterfly effect). Truth is not relative or subjective. It is absolute. If truth is not absolute, then there is no truth and chaos ensues.

If your wife does look fat in those jeans and you say "no, you look great" she doesn't have the opportunity to resolve the issue. She goes out in public and others say "fat ass" so you get collateral adverse reactions. Girl sees fat ass and returns her pair of same jeans, store owner loses sale, closes shop, wife leaves him and he commit suicide, all b/c of your inconsequential lie.

Other deep, profound stuff.

Tyrbolift
03-24-2008, 10:26 PM
x2

You can't possibly know exactly how the lie will be received to determine its pos/neg direct effect and or indirect effect (picture the butterfly effect). Truth is not relative or subjective. It is absolute. If truth is not absolute, then there is no truth and chaos ensues.

If your wife does look fat in those jeans and you say "no, you look great" she doesn't have the opportunity to resolve the issue. She goes out in public and others say "fat ass" so you get collateral adverse reactions. Girl sees fat ass and returns her pair of same jeans, store owner loses sale, closes shop, wife leaves him and he commit suicide, all b/c of your inconsequential lie.

Other deep, profound stuff.wow, I better tell my wife she looks fat in her jeans all the time...

goddessamazon
03-25-2008, 05:24 AM
wow, I better tell my wife she looks fat in her jeans all the time...

LOL!!!!

Tyrbolift made me laugh! That's a first. :)

JOHN GARGANI
03-25-2008, 07:03 AM
Does the person lieing who is in a good mental condition with assumed good judgement have the ability to decern or judge the outcome or is that outcome not capable of such judgement? We can't possibly see the outcome (its to subjective) IMHO and therefore makes it very difficult to say if said lie is appropriate..

thus the expression: GREY AREA!!!

mic65frit
03-25-2008, 07:26 AM
"Lack of planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part."

I like the way you think!

I tell advertising agencies almost weekly..."My Sense of Urgency isn't governed by your lack of pre-planning" (Ok, I really don't tell them that, but, boy would I like to...to bad I'm beholdened to the money they bring me, back to that being in debt thing)

Have a great day!

Mike

mic65frit
03-25-2008, 07:29 AM
This is not a lie or even a white lie if you truley love her. Avoidance of answering a question is not lying, it being what is often referred to as being "Politically Correct".

Dude,

You ever thought about running for political office! I think with that logic you might just fit in Washington. Ha Ha!

Mike

mic65frit
03-25-2008, 07:37 AM
[QUOTE=Bando;143801321]I teach my kids not to lie, it's one of the 10 commandments but perhaps as important - lying doesn't work.



It's the same way at work, if I screw up, I fess up. Some of my biggest promotions have come from supervisors that saw I had the character to be truthful when my own neck was on the line.

/QUOTE]

Better to fall on your sword and be humble, then to be struck by the sword and cast out.

Morals...nice to see that some try to walk the rightous path, and to raise your family in your own image GOOD FOR YOU!!!


Kudos,
Mike

jawter
03-25-2008, 08:49 AM
Dude,

You ever thought about running for political office! I think with that logic you might just fit in Washington. Ha Ha!

Mike


LOL

Our consitution gives us the right to make this choice and remain in good moral and ethical standing. Example..... You are in court and have been called to the stand. You being a good christian take the oath "To tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, So help you God.". The U.S. constituion which was written by christians specifically gave you the right to refuse/avoid answering questions even though you swore to God to tell the "Whole" truth. So by the U.S. constitution avoidance of a question is morally and ethically legal.

Its kind of like a presidents use of Marajuana,,,,,, I smoked but didn't inhale.

bulldog71
03-25-2008, 09:11 AM
LOL

Our consitution gives us the right to make this choice and remain in good moral and ethical standing. Example..... You are in court and have been called to the stand. You being a good christian take the oath "To tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, So help you God.". The U.S. constituion which was written by christians specifically gave you the right to refuse/avoid answering questions even though you swore to God to tell the "Whole" truth. So by the U.S. constitution avoidance of a question is morally and ethically legal.

Its kind of like a presidents use of Marajuana,,,,,, I smoked but didn't inhale.


x 2! You rock nutz! Reps to you!

chodan9
03-25-2008, 07:28 PM
LOL


Its kind of like a presidents use of Marajuana,,,,,, I smoked but didn't inhale.

I always thought that was funny. he used the "fact" that he didnt inhale to take the emphesis away from the first fact, he still smokesd pot, an illegal act. The law doesn't care if you inhale or not.
But when he said he didnt inhale it became more of a joke than an admission of breaking the law.