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jackedrabbit
03-13-2008, 09:20 AM
This is really interesting, but lately I've noticed myself getting leaner, despite being on a bulking diet...and yes, I've been counting calories. My weight has stayed the same, but the skin over my abs, chest, arms, etc. all look and feel "tighter".

I had originally become dissapointed as I wasn't as lean as I had wanted to be by the end of my cut, but now I'm glad I changed gears and started eating more. I ended my diet (Scivation's Cut Diet) at around 1600 calories. I've been keeping a close eye on my caloric intake and keeping cardio the same. I'm at 1800 calories now, and plan on increasing every 2 weeks by 100-200 calories depending on how I look and feel.

I didn't know where else to post this, so I was just wondering if any of you have experienced the same thing...getting tighter skin, etc. once you start bulking up a bit. Kind of a cool feeling actually...lol. Cuz before, I kept thinking to myself, "my God, how much more is it gonna take before my abs get that tight skinned look?"...guess the answer was more food! LOL.

Josh5442
03-13-2008, 09:32 AM
The same thing happened to me for a long time. I was around 2500-2700 cals, and not gaining anything. My friends were telling me I looked leaner, and to stop losing weight! I wasn't...I was maintaining my weight, I obviously put on some muscle and lost some fat.

Oddball8945
03-13-2008, 10:02 AM
I'm at 1800 calories now, and plan on increasing every 2 weeks by 100-200 calories depending on how I look and feel.

.

dude people cut on 1800 calories..........

Dm84
03-13-2008, 10:26 AM
dude people cut on 1800 calories..........Yeah. I'm bulking but my stomach is retracting inwards. I have gained approximately 17 lbs so far, with at least 8 more pounds to go. I'm eating at least 3500 calories though.

digitalgoodtime
03-13-2008, 10:39 AM
dude people cut on 1800 calories..........

that's exactly what i was thinking. how do you bulk on 1800 calories?

darknessWithin
03-13-2008, 10:40 AM
your bulking with 1800 calories thats crazy

bseidl
03-13-2008, 10:48 AM
Yeah since you're now increasing calories, your body is releasing some fat that it kept because it was in starvation mode. 1800 calories is a bit low for a bulk.

Captain Sagara
03-13-2008, 11:03 AM
This is really interesting, but lately I've noticed myself getting leaner, despite being on a bulking diet...and yes, I've been counting calories. My weight has stayed the same, but the skin over my abs, chest, arms, etc. all look and feel "tighter".

I had originally become dissapointed as I wasn't as lean as I had wanted to be by the end of my cut, but now I'm glad I changed gears and started eating more. I ended my diet (Scivation's Cut Diet) at around 1600 calories. I've been keeping a close eye on my caloric intake and keeping cardio the same. I'm at 1800 calories now, and plan on increasing every 2 weeks by 100-200 calories depending on how I look and feel.

I didn't know where else to post this, so I was just wondering if any of you have experienced the same thing...getting tighter skin, etc. once you start bulking up a bit. Kind of a cool feeling actually...lol. Cuz before, I kept thinking to myself, "my God, how much more is it gonna take before my abs get that tight skinned look?"...guess the answer was more food! LOL.

Gezz,bulking on 1800 calories...

Jules Verne
03-13-2008, 11:17 AM
I always seem to lean out a bit at the start of a bulk, or if I've been cutting for a while and increase calories for 5-7 days as a more aggressive refeed.

Then I start putting on water, feeling full, more bloated and fat!

The initial leaning out is likely just your muscles replenishing glycogen and water, plus maybe a small bit of extra fat loss.

rob426hz
03-13-2008, 11:21 AM
I always seem to lean out a bit at the start of a bulk, or if I've been cutting for a while and increase calories for 5-7 days as a more aggressive refeed.

Then I start putting on water, feeling full, more bloated and fat!

The initial leaning out is likely just your muscles replenishing glycogen and water, plus maybe a small bit of extra fat loss.

i've gotta agree... when i started my recent bulk, my body looked really full and lean... and then a couple days later, the bloated look and feeling took over...

jackedrabbit
03-13-2008, 11:21 AM
Gezz,bulking on 1800 calories...

Ramping out of a very intense Keto-diet. I basically did a contest-prep.

Captain Sagara
03-13-2008, 11:34 AM
Ramping out of a very intense Keto-diet. I basically did a contest-prep.

So,and for what i can understand your metabolism is all ****ed up,like mine is right now(been dieting for 12 weeks now)...You're wasting the rebound dude,you can up your calories to 2500 or 3000 right away without fat gains as long as you control the carbs...

jackedrabbit
03-13-2008, 12:04 PM
So,and for what i can understand your metabolism is all ****ed up,like mine is right now(been dieting for 12 weeks now)...You're wasting the rebound dude,you can up your calories to 2500 or 3000 right away without fat gains as long as you control the carbs...

Really? I was told by many (including the Scivation folks) to do it SLOWLY. Most every board/source has some sort of the same say when it comes to ramping up...go slow with the cals and carbs because the body is primed for fat storage...

And yeah, I second that my metabolism is ****ed right now. I never ever in a million years thought I'd ever be eating less than a 12-year old girl eats...lol. I used to put down 3500-4000 cals...it's sad. But damn am I lean.

LiL USMC BBer
03-13-2008, 12:15 PM
Really? I was told by many (including the Scivation folks) to do it SLOWLY. Most every board/source has some sort of the same say when it comes to ramping up...go slow with the cals and carbs because the body is primed for fat storage...

And yeah, I second that my metabolism is ****ed right now. I never ever in a million years thought I'd ever be eating less than a 12-year old girl eats...lol. I used to put down 3500-4000 cals...it's sad. But damn am I lean.


Yes its true that your primed for fat gain becuase you've been in contest prep/carb depleted/low calorie for so long.

But along with that fat gain. Is the infamous anabolic rebound that ALL competors look forward to post contest. This is the BEST time to put on muscle mass. MAINLY the mass that you might have lost during contest prep AND THEN SOME.

Captain Sagara
03-13-2008, 12:21 PM
Really? I was told by many (including the Scivation folks) to do it SLOWLY. Most every board/source has some sort of the same say when it comes to ramping up...go slow with the cals and carbs because the body is primed for fat storage...

And yeah, I second that my metabolism is ****ed right now. I never ever in a million years thought I'd ever be eating less than a 12-year old girl eats...lol. I used to put down 3500-4000 cals...it's sad. But damn am I lean.

You can bump your calories sky high without gaining much fat and gaining tons of LBM,you can take advantage of the rebound with mostly Protein/fats and low-TIMED carbs,that way you mainly put on lean weight...
Speaking of Scivation guys,Marc ramped his calories pretty high right away and he went from 160 pounds to 230 pounds with 10-12% bodyfat in the end,in like 6 weeks...The mainly concern here is not the calories but the carbs...

jackedrabbit
03-13-2008, 12:27 PM
You can bump your calories sky high without gaining much fat and gaining tons of LBM,you can take advantage of the rebound with mostly Protein/fats and low-TIMED carbs,that way you mainly put on lean weight...
Speaking of Scivation guys,Marc ramped his calories pretty high right away and he went from 160 pounds to 230 pounds with 10-12% bodyfat in the end,in like 6 weeks...The mainly concern here is not the calories but the carbs...

Haha yeah, he did get kinda fat...lol. I saw some of his recent pictures and some back fat poked over his shorts...whoops! But props to the guy...lol. Hope he doesn't read this post and get angry with me, cutting off my Xtend supply!

I did such a severe cut (basically contest prep) because I wanted to reset my "set-point" and stay lean from here on out as a put on lean mass. If I went from 7% bf to 12% bodyfat in 6 weeks, I'd be defeating the entire damn purpose of what I just spent the past few months doing. Which is why I am being very careful, and very slow. I'm not your typical competitor ready to celebrate...there is no celebration. This is just what I had to do to begin a very long journey towards a bigger, heavier, and lean physique so that one day, I can step on stage.

o1oo1
03-13-2008, 12:30 PM
I cut on more than 1800, you're not going to get bigger on a 200 calorie excess. Where the **** did this 'go a couple hundred calories above your maintanance' bollocks come from it's not true.

Captain Sagara
03-13-2008, 12:33 PM
I cut on more than 1800, you're not going to get bigger on a 200 calorie excess. Where the **** did this 'go a couple hundred calories above your maintanance' bollocks come from it's not true.

spot on,reps...

jackedrabbit
03-13-2008, 12:34 PM
Hmm...so maybe a Palumbo-style bulking diet?

jackedrabbit
03-13-2008, 12:36 PM
I cut on more than 1800, you're not going to get bigger on a 200 calorie excess. Where the **** did this 'go a couple hundred calories above your maintanance' bollocks come from it's not true.

It's true when you have a slow metabolism, damaged from a long and extreme Keto-diet.

You don't just go from being in contest condition to eating everything under the sun and expect not to rebound (in a bad way). Everything I've read has said to do it slowly. For example:

http://www.t-nation.com/readArticle.do?id=1226387

Jules Verne
03-13-2008, 12:43 PM
So, sickboy, considering your previous estimates of BF%, I have to ask, what BF do you estimate Jackedrabbit to be at?

Not trying to be nasty, derail the thread or get you to piss JR off - PM me if you'd prefer.

o1oo1
03-13-2008, 12:44 PM
It's true when you have a slow metabolism, damaged from a long and extreme Keto-diet.

You don't just go from being in contest condition to eating everything under the sun and expect not to rebound (in a bad way). Everything I've read has said to do it slowly. For example:

http://www.t-nation.com/readArticle.do?id=1226387

I'm sure everything you read is 100% true... however you should be eating 2500 calories normally, so to bulk you need a large excess mainly from carbs, protein doesn't make you huge. Eat more carbs and don't worry about what some people say, the people who write those articles are under 180 lbs you need to eat alot, yeah you'll put on fat but that can be burned off.

Captain Sagara
03-13-2008, 12:46 PM
So, sickboy, considering your previous estimates of BF%, I have to ask, what BF do you estimate Jackedrabbit to be at?

Not trying to be nasty, derail the thread or get you to piss JR off - PM me if you'd prefer.

No probs...Judging by the avatar is less then 10%...8% probably is pushing to far but 9% seems right...

Anyway i only advise take advantage of the huge rebound when you're less then 5%...

jackedrabbit
03-13-2008, 12:46 PM
So, sickboy, considering your previous estimates of BF%, I have to ask, what BF do you estimate Jackedrabbit to be at?

Not trying to be nasty, derail the thread or get you to piss JR off - PM me if you'd prefer.

Nah, say it out in the open.

I'm getting it tested, but I am a bit leaner than I am in my avatar and pics that I have up in my profile.

Marc over at Scivation pegged me at 6-7%.

Captain Sagara
03-13-2008, 12:48 PM
So, sickboy, considering your previous estimates of BF%, I have to ask, what BF do you estimate Jackedrabbit to be at?

Not trying to be nasty, derail the thread or get you to piss JR off - PM me if you'd prefer.

No probs...Judging by the avatar is less then 10%...8% probably is pushing to far but 9% seems right...He can be lower indeed,depends on his bodytype but in that pic he still looks a little soft for less then 9%,once again it could be taken after a meal or first thing in the morning when we are flat and i can be dead wrong...

Anyway i only advise take advantage of the huge rebound when you're less then 5%...

Also he doens't has many lean mass,so even in lower bodyfat levels he still will look a little higher in bf%...On a side note people with many lea mass will look leaner at higher bodyfat levels,so it's really difficult to make a right estimation...

jackedrabbit
03-13-2008, 12:50 PM
No probs...Judging by the avatar is less then 10%...8% probably is pushing to far but 9% seems right...

Anyway i only advise take advantage of the huge rebound when you're less then 5%...

I would agree with you...around 8-9% seems more realistic to me. Part of the reason why I stopped cutting was the little watery "pouch" over my last 2 abs (I have an 8-pack, but only got 6 to show) wouldn't go away.

I attributed it to loose skin, stubborn fat, and a slow metabolism that wouldn't let me cut any further unless I resorted to extremes. The last time I had an 8-pack I was a highschool track runner, weighing 128 pounds. I think if I ever want to see an 8-pack again, I need the muscle first. Besides, any leaner than I am now is a waste of cutting and a waste of time. There's no way in hell I could realistically maintain such a low % without being overly strict on myself.

Maintaining 10-12% is much easier, and much healthier/realistic. I just don't wanna jump to 12% TOO quickly..lol.

Tiffany_P
03-13-2008, 12:53 PM
You're still losing weight because at 1800 calories, you're still in a deficit. Once you get your cals up to bulking level, you will stop getting leaner.

You look awesome though.

Captain Sagara
03-13-2008, 12:57 PM
From weights and cardio alone you'll probably burning 800 calories,even if your metabolism is all ****ed up you're still at least in 1400 calorie burning for day,add at least 800-1000 for activity,there's no way you can gain fat at this point even at 2500 calories,just up your protein and fat without putting carbs just yet,just to be on the safe side...You're destroying yourself at 1800 calories and by your plans you will only be 2400 in 6 weeks :eek:

jackedrabbit
03-13-2008, 01:06 PM
From weights and cardio alone you'll probably burning 800 calories,even if your metabolism is all ****ed up you're still at least in 1400 calorie burning for day,add at least 800-1000 for activity,there's no way you can gain fat at this point even at 2500 calories,just up your protein and fat without putting carbs just yet,just to be on the safe side...You're destroying yourself at 1800 calories and by your plans you will only be 2400 in 6 weeks :eek:

What do you have to say then in response to the link I posted above, as well as how the Cut Diet book recommends you ramp your calories up by 150-200 cals/day?

You are the only source that has suggested such a drastic increase, in such a short period of time.

Have you read Sporto's Log? Or Bill's? Both competitors are still barely eating at maintainence levels, or just reaching maintenence, weeks after their diets have ended, all while still doing the same amount of cardio while keeping all supps the same as well.

FitzChivalry
03-13-2008, 02:08 PM
This is a good thread going on as I'm interested in this as well after hearing people say things for both ways.

Jules Verne
03-13-2008, 02:14 PM
No probs...Judging by the avatar is less then 10%...8% probably is pushing to far but 9% seems right...He can be lower indeed,depends on his bodytype but in that pic he still looks a little soft for less then 9%,once again it could be taken after a meal or first thing in the morning when we are flat and i can be dead wrong...

Anyway i only advise take advantage of the huge rebound when you're less then 5%...

Also he doens't has many lean mass,so even in lower bodyfat levels he still will look a little higher in bf%...On a side note people with many lea mass will look leaner at higher bodyfat levels,so it's really difficult to make a right estimation...

Thanks. That what I thought, just wanted to confirm for general interest and mild relevance to the discussion.


What do you have to say then in response to the link I posted above, as well as how the Cut Diet book recommends you ramp your calories up by 150-200 cals/day?



Upping calories by 200kcal/day seems like quite a rapid increase to me. That would get you from 1800 to 2600 in only 4-5 days. Doesn't seem much different than just going from 1800 to 2600 in one go. I'd probably take it even slower than that, but I'm certainly no expert and haven't tried increasing calories that drastically except for 1-2 days of refeeding during a cut.

EDIT: OK, I guess the OP has 200kcal every 2 weeks. That does seem slow. I'm confused now!

NamesAreHardToPick
03-13-2008, 02:23 PM
Yeah I was thinking of doing the last four weeks of my cut on the Cut Diet, but man I'm glad I read this. I am eating 400 more calories on a cut and even then I think I am pushing it too low. As one who had a bad thyroid previously, I tell you that I am not impressed with a diet that puts someone that low on calories to lose weight. I'm sure you'll be fine, but if you can make sure your thryoid didn't take a hit.

Captain Sagara
03-13-2008, 02:25 PM
What do you have to say then in response to the link I posted above, as well as how the Cut Diet book recommends you ramp your calories up by 150-200 cals/day?

You are the only source that has suggested such a drastic increase, in such a short period of time.

Have you read Sporto's Log? Or Bill's? Both competitors are still barely eating at maintainence levels, or just reaching maintenence, weeks after their diets have ended, all while still doing the same amount of cardio while keeping all supps the same as well.

Yep,they advise for day...

jackedrabbit
03-13-2008, 02:35 PM
Increasing by 200 cals per day does not mean adding 200 calories MORE every day. It means this:

Week 1: 1600 cals
Week 2: 1800 cals
Week 3: 2000 cals

I have chosen to do these jumps BI-WEEKLY rather than weekly. I want to do this slowly, since my thyroid, metabolism, etc. are all in ruins right now. I also weigh a mere 154, so my maintenece isn't even that high- it's about 2300.

The Cut Diet recommends a slow increase. That article, "getting unshredded" recommends adding 1 extra protein+fat meal (200-300 cals) and adding 2 high-ER carb days.

Taking all of this into account, and reading the vast amount of post-contest journals on the boards, here and on MD, etc., a SLOW RAMP UP is the general consensus. If it took you 12 weeks to get shredded, it should take close to 12 weeks to get into bulking calories. The anabolic rebound can be used to gain pure lean mass if done properly.

I believe Sporto has said this in hislog, but he calls the ramp up period "reverse dieting"...it's extremely tough to resist throwing all caution to the wind and binge, or eat too much, too soon. I just keep telling myself to have patience, and while I know most GIRLS eat more than me right now, I'll be very happy, 10 weeks from now, with summer just around the bend, perhaps 7-8 pounds heavier while still having the same bodyfat % and having loads more strength. Now that is what I want, and that will have made this grueling cut worth it.

Then, from there on out, it's careful, lean eating to add lean mass. I plan to gain only 10 pounds TOTAL over the course of 2008. It's gonna be slow and steady forever forme...the natural body can only add muscle so fast and poeple who gain 20-30 pounds of bulk are only fooling themselves if they think it's pure LBM.

jackedrabbit
03-13-2008, 02:37 PM
Just on a side note, what I am doing now is that I've added an extra Cut Diet style meal- chicken + green beans + almonds, and instead of the 2 refeeds per week, I've given myself the option of TWO 500-calorie cheat meals per week, or carbs at breakfast and PWO on both days, in the amount of 500 calories- 250 at breakfast and 250 PWO.

Captain Sagara
03-13-2008, 02:42 PM
Just on a side note, what I am doing now is that I've added an extra Cut Diet style meal- chicken + green beans + almonds, and instead of the 2 refeeds per week, I've given myself the option of TWO 500-calorie cheat meals per week, or carbs at breakfast and PWO on both days, in the amount of 500 calories- 250 at breakfast and 250 PWO.

Anyway as i said i don't advise a huge ramp in calories in people who didn't diet to 5% or less...I only said something like 500-600 calories more would not make you fat,but you choose,it's your ball game not mine :)

jackedrabbit
03-13-2008, 04:50 PM
Anyway as i said i don't advise a huge ramp in calories in people who didn't diet to 5% or less...I only said something like 500-600 calories more would not make you fat,but you choose,it's your ball game not mine :)

True.

And for the record, I've read a few of your posts and I respect your opinion and expertise on the subject. It's just that I've worked so hard over the past few months to achieve what I have now. Granted, to some it may not be much, but I'm in the best shape of my life thus far right now and while I may be pretty damn light at 5'8 and 154, and while I may have (temporarily) depressed my metabolism, all of this pain and torture has its purpose- it serves as the first step in obtaining a clean slate for me to build upon. I've never clean bulked in my life, and am eager to see what will happen when I apply proper nutrition to balls-to-the-wall training.

In the past, my diet would regularily consist of refined carbs, pizza, burritos, burgers, and other foods in excess. I'd constantly overeat...lol. The funny thing and perhaps interesting/important thing I've learned from dieting with such low calories is that it is simply amazing as to how your body can function and perform even when you deprive it of carbs and feed it minimal calories. Never in a million years did I think I could function on a Keto-type diet. I remember the first time I tried a carb cycle...lol...I felt dead on a low carb day...and I was still having 150 grams of carbs! Ha, what I'd give to have a "low carb day" now..lol.

Anyway, sorry for the ramble, but just had to let you guys know where I'm coming from.

I'll continue the slow ramp up as planned...what matters is that I'm ramping up and ready to grow! If you guys want to follow along, I have a journal over in Derek's section, and there's a link to it in my sig as well. Hopefully I can help other people in a similar situation, not knowing exactly what to do upon completing a seriously challenging diet like The Cut Diet or Palumbo's Diet.

jackedrabbit
03-13-2008, 05:06 PM
BTW, here's a link to a post I made in my journal with before/after pics:



http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpost.php?p=134819581&postcount=30

nowhealthnut
07-20-2012, 02:51 PM
i recently read an article on abs, i was totally blown away what i read. it really made me think before i went any further. here is where the article was i read, just wanting to share. tinyurl.com/health-issues-on-abs

areyadigginit
11-15-2014, 07:54 AM
Your bulking with 1800 kcal??? I cut on 2100 kcal how's that even possible? What weight are u 100lbs

Mncdk
11-15-2014, 07:59 AM
dat thread date.

supernava
10-08-2015, 08:16 AM
Im bulking while carb cycling getting on average 2350 calories a day and ive been getting leaner

WeightsB
10-08-2015, 05:22 PM
This is more usual when you just started lifting from what ive heard