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jdel80
02-26-2003, 12:30 PM
I am 39, and fairly new to the weight training, and I hear talk about testosterone supp. good bad ? what are the adv. I am sorry if I posted this in th ewrong group, I poked around in the "Suppliments" forum but didn't really find anything . ?

MagicMel
02-26-2003, 01:06 PM
1-test, 1AD, 4AD, 1,4 Andro, 19 Nor. Oral or Transdermal. etc,etc,etc. Yeah it can be quite confusing. If you do a search on any one of these, you'll be stuck in the archives for days on end.
I'm actually STILL stuck in those archives.

I want to try a PH at the start of my bulk cycle in the fall, at that point I will have a full year of training under my belt. I'll be researching it up until then, I guess.

I was talking to a very knowledgable nutrition guy at my local Vitamin City. He suggested starting with the weakest PH to see how my body tolerates that kind of stuff. He recommend MRM Andro-Surge. This is androstenedione. It's a PH that is only taken on workout days, 45mins or so prior to working out. Try 1 cap/workout for a week, if nothing, then 2 caps. Max 3 caps. Now in doing a search on androstenedione, everyone here seems to agree that it is very weak, if not, useless. It's funny, though, that when this first came out, like so many others, it was touted as the next latest and greatest thing next to real steroids.
Anyway, the bottle only cost me $11.99 so I bought it, and stored it away. I may or may not try it.

I'm more inclined to try 1-test first, then maybe go to a 1ad/4ad cycle. Who knows, it might be something totally different 1 hour from now.

The scary part is, with the drug ban in congress, should we stock some of this stuff now in anticipation of the stuff being pulled of the shelves? I think I will, but I'll have to check on the shelf life of each first. Hopefully they'll last through to the fall in my fridge.

BTW, each PH comes with its own set of side effects. Careful research of each PH in relation to your own body's tolerance is a must.

MiloMan
02-26-2003, 01:14 PM
I took some of this once; it was very effective (but the legal, over-the-counter supps are junk, by comparison):

Original Poster
02-26-2003, 01:23 PM
Originally posted by MagicMel
1
I was talking to a very knowledgable nutrition guy at my local Vitamin City. He suggested starting with the weakest PH to see how my body tolerates that kind of stuff. He recommend MRM Andro-Surge. This is androstenedione. It's a PH that is only taken on workout days, 45mins or so prior to working out. Try 1 cap/workout for a week, if nothing, then 2 caps. Max 3 caps. Now in doing a search on androstenedione, everyone here seems to agree that it is very weak, if not, useless. It's funny, though, that when this first came out, like so many others, it was touted as the next latest and greatest thing next to real steroids.
Anyway, the bottle only cost me $11.99 so I bought it, and stored it away. I may or may not try it.


Mel,

I must say that I would Never Ask that "knowledgable nutrition guy at my local Vitamin City" for advice ever again.
He doesn't know jack sh*t (pardon my french).

androstenedione = a waste of money and in Big Cat's words....is nothing less than "tits in a bottle"

Any PH should be taken both on workout and non WO days.......Workout days only is B.S. IMO.

The only thing I agree with that he told you was to start with a PH........I'd pick 4ad personally.

PH's have come light years since the original Andro.
I'd flush it.

PEACE

Original Poster
02-26-2003, 01:25 PM
Originally posted by MiloMan
I took some of this once; it was very effective (but the legal, over-the-counter supps are junk, by comparison):

I'm quite sure it was. LOL

MagicMel
02-26-2003, 01:59 PM
Thanks for the advice Chi_town,

I agree with you on all points, including the "knowledgable" nutrition guy.

I did the search on androstenedione AFTER I had bought the bottle of Andro-Surge and read what the ingredient was. That's when I decided just to store it away.

phikappa
02-26-2003, 02:12 PM
The only Andro I've tried is 19-Nor. It really didn't have any effect until I got the dosage up to 750mg/day. At this dosage I was making gains, but not at anything less. You might be able to get away with less with 4-AD or 1-AD since I believe they're more anabolic. Another good side effect I had was that I felt more pump and less burn. I could just attack the weights without much pain at all. I thought the main drawback was price, especially if you have to take 750mg/day. I didn't have any of the advertised negative side effects.

Now, having said all that, would I recommend PH's for a beginner? Nope. Get your diet and routine working well first, then play with pills. Good luck!

little lats
02-26-2003, 02:23 PM
Originally posted by phikappa

Now, having said all that, would I recommend PH's for a beginner? Nope. Get your diet and routine working well first, then play with pills. Good luck!


Amen!!

MagicMel
02-26-2003, 02:27 PM
phikappa,
Did you have any side effects with the 19-Nor?

phikappa
02-26-2003, 02:29 PM
Originally posted by MagicMel
phikappa,
Did you have any side effects with the 19-Nor?


I only had positive side effects.

Dutchman
02-26-2003, 02:42 PM
MagicMel, please watch out with that Androstenedionne crap. That stuff is dangerous to your prostate. It jumped my PSA up from 3 to 10 and the docs were ready with the knife. Only getting off it and a heavy diet of Saw Palmetto and Tomato Juice (Lycopin) saved the crown jewels for another day. If you want to do Andro I sugest only the Nor-diol variety for safety sake. Better yet use something like 1-AD or 1-Test (stronger yet) and you can be both safe and extremely happy with your gains. Despite a history of enlarged prostate, prostatitis (when I was younger) and the Andro crap incident I have done four cycles of 1-AD with great results and, as per last weeks physical, NO problems for my prostrate.

jdel80
02-26-2003, 02:59 PM
WOW !!!!! I guess I was WAY off on this . I thought this was an over the counter suppliment that men my age took, to raise there testosterone, to help loose body fat ...

Sorry for the confusion ... But I'm glad I asked

thanks again ...

MagicMel
02-26-2003, 03:12 PM
Thanks Dutchman,
Consider the Andro-Surge flushed!

jdel80,
I hope you're getting all this. I know it's only your 3rd week of training, and you're anxious to make big gains. But now is not the time to be taking PH's. In fact the same goes for me, too.

I will still consider stockpiling, though.

MagicMel
02-26-2003, 03:17 PM
Oops,
Sorry, jdel80, I didn't see your reply after Dutchman's.

Any way, if your just looking to raise your test levels to "normal", try some ZMA before bed, and doing squats is a great exercise for bumping up the testosterone.

jdel80
02-26-2003, 04:20 PM
I have been weight training for 8-9 months and was just looking for a little more muscle mass.......

tatortodd
02-26-2003, 09:54 PM
JDEL,

I have no pro-hormone experience to share, but would definitely recommend reading Big Cat's pro-hormone articles #2, #17, #25, #7, #8, #13, etc. Actually, I'd recommend that you read all of Big Cat's articles.

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/bigcat.htm

I found his articles about a month ago, and have put on 5 lbs. of muscle after incorporating some of his recommendations/suggestions (ZMA, B Complex, timing of proteins, etc.). He writes to all knowledge levels, and is very frugal.

~Todd

P.S. His advice on taking B Complex to increase protein digestion and combat protein flatulence has saved many friendships :-)

MagicMel
02-26-2003, 11:16 PM
Oops,
Sorry again, jdel. I got you mixed up with, mainer001.

gbat
02-27-2003, 03:22 AM
Originally posted by MagicMel
Oops,
Sorry, jdel80, I didn't see your reply after Dutchman's.

Any way, if your just looking to raise your test levels to "normal", try some ZMA before bed, and doing squats is a great exercise for bumping up the testosterone.

Ya got that right, Mel! I decided to make legs the center of my focus and squats the center of that. Result: upper body gains especially arms, fat coming off, strength rising. And I'm getting more frisky, kind of a tip off. :D

I used to take ZMA but quit because I have a problem with the extra B6 in most of em. Gives me mouth sores. Weird.

little lats
02-27-2003, 04:49 AM
Originally posted by Chi_town

PH's have come light years since the original Andro.
I'd flush it.

PEACE

Yah, and I am sure the wife wants to do the same to your 1-test!! :D

Gator
02-27-2003, 05:23 AM
IMHO, PH's are a waste of cash..
But to each his own..
Good luck w/whatever u choose..

Gator

Belle
02-27-2003, 04:22 PM
Just thinking, since DHEA is a pre cursor of all the male androgens and can be taken orally and easy to get hold of, why some people go for the anabolics when you can just take extra dhea and let your body make the other anabolics naturally.
I know Addisons patients that seem to be able to get hold of dhea supplements easily.

I also know that when you take extra dhea, it does not have any negative feedback as such. In other words, as someone with normal levels of dhea, if you took more, then you would get all the benefits of it and start to make extra a and t.

If you look at the diagram again that I post a URL to, you'll see that dehydroepiandrosterone (dhea) is the pre cursor for androstenedione in the third metabollic pathway in that diagram. Which means that when dhea is increased in your body, it is shunted down the rest of the metabollic pathway and naturally increases andro and then subsequently "t" also. :)

http://www.google.co.nz/search?q=dhea&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en

Third pathway across...

Belle
02-27-2003, 04:24 PM
at least if you do it that way, whatever "a" and "t" is increased, it is manufactured by your own adrenals and testicles. It hasn't come from some unknown source.

back2it
02-27-2003, 05:07 PM
DHEA can also convert to estrogen . I think because it becomes a "dione" instead of a "dion" . The good prohormones like 1-AD , 4-AD , and the nor-andros have only a small amount of conversion to estrogen , any prohormone with a "dione" at the end are to be avoided . Prostate problems and male breast enlargement are caused by higher than normal estrogen/testosterone % .

back2it
02-27-2003, 05:09 PM
Sorry : small amounts of DHEA are ok for men over 40 but large doses taken to get a steroid effect can cause problems .

Belle
02-27-2003, 05:40 PM
What sort of problems are they? Just I was doing some research on dhea a while back into side effects of too little or too much and I hit the dhea home page. It seems to me thought that when you raise one hormone that the other's should be all balanced...dunno. I just thought an abundance of one and a lack of the other may predispose someone to unknown problems in itself. Normally you would not have the high "t" or "a" count unless you had the dhea levels to match it.

The smallest dose is 25mg though and these can be cut in half and quarter's with a pill cutter. most people have had bad side-effects from what I can gather when they take too much of the stuff. I.e. I guess they have taken 25mg. However, for people that don't make it, even they only need a fraction of that to "mimick" the natural levels. The recommended dose for men is 25-120mg but that is for those that cannot make the stuff. So you can imagine that folks that DO make it, if they take a whole 25mg tablet, they are almost doubling their dhea production and it is no surprise that there are problems. I figured that folks who just want to boost the "a" and "t" production would need a quarter of less.

http://www.dietsexercise.com/dhea-Text.htm

Those that are lacking would need more. Some women on total replacement in fact only take 1/2 of a 25mg tab. They feel great and their libido is much better, so I guess getting using a pill cutter is an option.

Has anyone taken DHEA and if so what dose?

Belle
02-27-2003, 05:43 PM
Oops, did not see your post above the last one until I had posted saying it is converted to estrogen. Not really sure about that...your prolly right actually, because that is why the women obviously benefit too when they take the stuff, it must affect all sex hormones in both sexes. You often hear them say when taking it that they feel "normal" again.

Guess it would be good if your aging and either sex really, especially if weight training did not raise your levels enough because it also increases HGH and IGF II doesn't it?

back2it
02-27-2003, 05:50 PM
Enlarged prostate was the major problem . I have taken 25mg doses for about 3 months . I noticed no side effects , it was after a prostate exam and psa test both of which were OK . I don't think 25mg is overdosing for someone over 40 but the large doses I read about were in the 250 range .

Belle
02-27-2003, 06:02 PM
I was thinking that any raised anabolic level would raise the estrogen level really as that is what occurs for CAH women... voa the adrenals--they make extra "everything" and I did a quick search and it appears me thoughts about that were on the right track...

look at this:

http://www.naturalinvestor.com/nfm-online/nfm_backs/Mar_00/andro.cfm

back2it
02-27-2003, 06:14 PM
Originally posted by Belle
I was thinking that any raised anabolic level would raise the estrogen level really as that is what occurs for CAH women... voa the adrenals--they make extra "everything" and I did a quick search and it appears me thoughts about that were on the right track...

look at this:

http://www.naturalinvestor.com/nfm-online/nfm_backs/Mar_00/andro.cfm

That was in march of 2000 and in reference to a "dione" not a later developed "dion" . There is no doubt the older prohormones{diones} convert to estrogen but the newer ones like 1-AD , 1-AD and the others I mentioned {dions} are much less prone to concert to estro if they do at all .
That is why Dutchman probably has had no ill effects with 1-AD unlike the prostate problems he mentioned with the older {diones} he had previously taken and warned someone about .

Belle
02-27-2003, 06:27 PM
So which hormone does AD 1 increase in the body for example?

I mean I read this and see why you would NOT want excess estrogen:

http://www.dietsexercise.com/testosterone-mira-forte-1.htm

The Dutchman also takes saw palmetto which could quite easily be controlling the estrogen could it not? just wondering...maybe he used to take it and doesn't now because he has switched to another type of supplement as you say.

Minotaur
02-27-2003, 06:33 PM
My understanding is that DHEA can convert to either testosterone or estrogen in men and women. No knowing which way it will go in an individual of either sex. A better option from what I've read is 7-keto DHEA. I'm using it now, 25mg 2x a day. It's a metabolite of DHEA that has the same effects as DHEA, but there is no conversion.

back2it
02-27-2003, 06:43 PM
1-ad converts to testosterone and the saw palmetto inhibits the formation od "dihydrotestosterone" which is the form of testosterone that causes enlargement of the prostate . Other natural products like pumpkin seeds have a similar effect as do some other herbs .

back2it
02-27-2003, 06:47 PM
Originally posted by Minotaur
My understanding is that DHEA can convert to either testosterone or estrogen in men and women. No knowing which way it will go in an individual of either sex. A better option from what I've read is 7-keto DHEA. I'm using it now, 25mg 2x a day. It's a metabolite of DHEA that has the same effects as DHEA, but there is no conversion.

I had been reading about the 7 keto dhea . Have you noticed any effects good or bad and how long have you been taking it .

Belle
02-27-2003, 06:54 PM
blocks elevated estorgen in men also which is said to cause the prostate problem along with DHT apparently and also libido probs

http://www.allvita.net/prosfor.htm

Medicinal Uses: A hexane extract of saw palmetto berries has been shown to have antiandrogenic properties through a direct action on the estrogen receptors and by inhibiting the enzyme testosterone-5-alph-reductase. Subcutaneously administered saw palmetto extracts were strongly estrogenic in mice. Furthermore, saw palmetto extract has been shown to prevent the conversion of testosterone to dihydrotestosterone (DHT) as well as to inhibit DHT binding to cellular and nuclear receptor sites, thereby increasing the metabolism and excretion of DHT. A double-blind placebo-controlled study evaluated the hormonal effects of saw palmetto extract given to men with benign prostatic hypertrophy (BPH) for 3 months prior to operation. The study found that saw palmetto displayed an estrogenic and antiprogesterone effect as determined by estrogen and progesterone receptor activity. ENERGETICS: pungent, sweet, warm MERIDIANS/ORGANS AFFECTED: kidney, spleen, liver.

Belle
02-27-2003, 07:01 PM
I know a few CAH women that are using it to try to block DHT but also to control the elevated estrogen as they have both probs. Also women with PCOS (due to elevated anabolics half the time) benefit from saw palmetto for the same reason. It's a good supplement for both men and women for balancing hormones.

Is said to increase breast size too... LOL, may just get me some. ;)

I note that my hair is falling out in handfuls recently. I know that people usually lose 100 hairs per day as a rule, but I don't generally lose this much hair and I am not using supplements. Knowing about the above makes me wonder if I would benefit from saw palmetto as also I am small chested so I am wondering if I have a lack of the hormone that determines bust size and a nice full head of hair.

I have had this problem before after the birth of kids when the hormones have been rapidly changing, but the last was two years ago and the only thing I have been doing lately is increasing muscle mass and change of diet to benefit that. So am wondering why the hair loss so much at the moment. Even wondered if I could have a mild version of CAH (LOCAH) because it is possible for me to be "sufferer" not just carrier and pass it on to my children I guess.

I'm finding that my leg muscles and arms really respond TOO well to weights and I am not even lifting heavy weights at the moment. Also other symptoms seem to ring true..so I was kind of wondering about whether I'd beenfit from Saw palmetto supplements. There is one here that is for men for prostate probs which only has saw palmetto as an ingredient and it is cheap. I guess I could get that.

Minotaur
02-28-2003, 07:26 AM
Originally posted by back2it
I had been reading about the 7 keto dhea . Have you noticed any effects good or bad and how long have you been taking it .

I've been taking it about 2 months. I don't think there have been any negative side effects. I don't know what it's done though, because everything about me, hormonally, is up for grabs. :confused:

7-keto is supposed to aid fat loss, and I seem to be losing very slowly. It's always that way for me, even being on hormone replacements, and dieting and exercising my butt off. In 2 months I'm lucky if I've lost 7 or 8 lbs. :(

I'm going to keep on with the 7-keto, especially since it was pronounced OK by Larrian Gillespie, MD. She's a doctor that I communicate with, who wrote The Gladiator Diet, The Goddess Diet and The Menopause Diet. She's the 'Hormone Diva'. :)

Minotaur
02-28-2003, 07:33 AM
Originally posted by Belle
blocks elevated estorgen in men also which is said to cause the prostate problem along with DHT apparently and also libido probs

I've also heard that recent research suggests estrogen, not DHT, is the culprit behind prostate problems. Estrogen is manufactured and stored in fat cells. So if a man is even 10 lbs overfat, he can have a hormonal imbalance. Well, I'm screwed. :(

DHT is not the evil some would have us believe... without DHT, there is no sex drive, no anabolism, no manliness. It's the active and powerful form of testosterone, just as estradiol is the active and powerful form of estrogen, which we know for men is altogether EVIL! :D

Dutchman
02-28-2003, 10:56 AM
My knowledge and experiences are of course only verifiiably correct for my own condition. That said Maybe the sequence would be enlightening for you who seem more educidated (chuckle) in the medical arts.

Forty years of long distance running and forty years of prostate problems beginning with severe prostatitis. ( A funny aside, I kid you not when I say that back in the hey day of the flower power and concurrently, my grad school days, I used to have a doctor's note recommending that I have sex at least twice a day. My wife at the time and the gals in our commune, hell anywhere, were glad to cooperate. Ahh those golden years!! )

In 1997 and 98 having retired from my running, I got heavily into using Andro, both dione and diols, to try and put on some muscleweight.

In 1999 they discovered my PSA had jumped up to 10 and started to sharpen their knives.

By late 99 I was off Andros and onto the Saw Palmetto and Lycopin (tomato juice) solution. I later added Pumpkin Seed and Pygeum. My PSA came down to the high 3s. Safe but not perfect.

Searching and praying for a safe alternative that could crank up my growth, in 2001, I stumbled on the early articles here about 1-AD. I read everything I could find and decided to give it a careful try. In 2002 I did 3, 4-week cycles and 1 6-week cycle with great results. All the time I stayed on my "sex cocktail preservatives". Along with the lack of DHT in 1-AD, the Saw Palmetto etc has not only continued to reduce my PSA levels but also the size of my prostate.

At the moment, my definitely non-traditional doctor, is examining my vitamin, amino acid and testosterone levels to help me plan my next approach and what modifications, if any, are needed.

wspe
02-28-2003, 11:11 AM
Dutchman;

How much saw palmetto do you take???\\

Thank you..

Dutchman
02-28-2003, 11:34 AM
wspe, I take 900mg of Saw Palmetto, at least 6 oz of tomato juice (Lycopin), 500mg of Pygeum, 200mcg of Selenium and 5 tablespoonsfull of Flax Oil everyday. I wash these and my other vitamins down with the TJ every morning. I admit it, I'm a vitamin junkie!

Belle
02-28-2003, 02:39 PM
Originally posted by Minotaur
I've been taking it about 2 months. I don't think there have been any negative side effects. I don't know what it's done though, because everything about me, hormonally, is up for grabs. :confused:

7-keto is supposed to aid fat loss, and I seem to be losing very slowly. It's always that way for me, even being on hormone replacements, and dieting and exercising my butt off. In 2 months I'm lucky if I've lost 7 or 8 lbs. :(

I'm going to keep on with the 7-keto, especially since it was pronounced OK by Larrian Gillespie, MD. She's a doctor that I communicate with, who wrote The Gladiator Diet, The Goddess Diet and The Menopause Diet. She's the 'Hormone Diva'. :)

Yes dhea will aid fat loss and also help to increase muscle mass in a person who takes a supplement or whom makes more of the stuff than the norm. That's what happen's to Ash anyway when he is not controlled well. I think you will find that although your scales only reflect 8 lbs or so of weight loss, that there has been some gain in muscle and that may not even show on a tap measure for a while either. It's the same for me at the moment. I'm feeling firmer in the thighs, but there is still some fat there. I know the ratio of mucle/fat has changed, but the tape measure hasn't shown any decrease...so my theory is that as fat has been lost, the circumference has stayed the same because of the muscle growth. So whilst I could do to lose a few inches still, it won't show as well as if I were just dieting and not gaining muscle. Only this week have I seen a few ml's budge. But yet they are firmer for sure...

Your dhea's generally increase with activity levels being stepped up anyway--it totally affects your metabolism and speeds it up and at the same time curbs your appetite to a certain extent. I know that when Ash's levels were up two years ago now, he ate much less, and would be gone to school without even his breakfast. He had to go on dexamethasone 0.25mg (equivalent to one third more of his daily HCT dose) for four weeks to stomp all over the anabolics and get his levels back within the normal ranges...and then he was put back on his dose and it was raised a tad. He had adult armpit BO when the levels were really high (aged 7) but that disappeared towards the fourth week of raised med's. They used dex as it has a longer acting biological life in the bloods than hydrocortisone. It is some 80 times more potent. Immediately he went on the dex, he started to eat for the whole of NZ basically--mainly he craved eggs and I would get up in the mornings to find him boiling 3-4 in a pan on the stove top for breakfast. So it is the hormones that affect your metabolism and thus you appetite. He turned into a little couch potato within four weeks and had a little pot belly toboot. Just recently he has levelled out to a more normal gait and weight. It's taken over a year to get him like that though and piddling around with his doses=hormone levels.

Belle
02-28-2003, 02:53 PM
Thanks for the info on the gladiator diet and the MD. I did a search for it and found the info and as you may be able to tell this topic fascinates me for obvious reasons. I like it when I have some interested reading on that topic to get through...

She sounds like a good Doctor. I like a Doctor with an open mind and one that is always learning. A good deal of the Endo's we have had seem very rigid in their prespecetive on various treatments and never seem to research or be prepared to look at side -effects and why they are occuring. Luckily we found one at Wellington now but it means travelling 200 ks to see him every so often. It's worth it though.

priapis
03-01-2003, 02:47 PM
Originally posted by MagicMel
Thanks for the advice Chi_town,

I agree with you on all points, including the "knowledgable" nutrition guy.

I did the search on androstenedione AFTER I had bought the bottle of Andro-Surge and read what the ingredient was. That's when I decided just to store it away.

You should return it, and let him know (in a voice loud enuf for others to hear) why you are returning it. The only thing worse than a know-it-all who knows nothing in health food store is same thing in a computer store :-}

also, for low sides try norandrodiol products - 19-nor (do search on big cat articles which usually have links to products)- next best for low sides is boldione. these blow away 4-ad with less sides. 1-T or 1-ad are way stronger, but more androgenic sides to deal with.

Macattack
03-01-2003, 03:56 PM
Some of you may need some serious help, better get over and do some reading:)

http://www.nida.nih.gov/ResearchReports/Steroids/anabolicsteroids4.html#treatments

Minotaur
03-02-2003, 06:25 AM
Originally posted by Belle
Yes dhea will aid fat loss and also help to increase muscle mass in a person who takes a supplement or whom makes more of the stuff than the norm. That's what happen's to Ash anyway when he is not controlled well. I think you will find that although your scales only reflect 8 lbs or so of weight loss, that there has been some gain in muscle and that may not even show on a tap measure for a while either.

I try not to stress over the scale, and in fact I fight with myself about not even using it. I think what's happening is that I probably am building muscle at the same time as losing fat. And while many people say this is hard, if not impossible, remember that I am one 3 hormone replacements that are probably making my body catch up to. I can't explain it, though. I can see it in areas other than my midsection. Although, I can see some change in my midsection too. Not so much in girth yet (I lost maybe an inch), but in the shape.

back2it
03-02-2003, 06:48 AM
Minotaur I have some regular dhea that I have taken sparaticaly over the past few months . I reduced the frequency when I read about the conversion to estrogen . That is when I found out about the 7 keto version and that it doesn't convert . Of course living in a semi communist country I cannot buy it{7keto} here the regular potentially more harmful stuff is available go figure .

MiloMan
03-02-2003, 07:08 AM
Originally posted by Macattack
Some of you may need some serious help, better get over and do some reading:)

http://www.nida.nih.gov/ResearchReports/Steroids/anabolicsteroids4.html#treatments
Truly, any drug that is strong enough to help you...is also probably strong enough to hurt you, so be careful.

Belle
03-02-2003, 11:04 AM
Where do they get the ingredients for things like AD 1 from or other anabolics?