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View Full Version : no doubt this will get swept under the rug:



Phatman1179
02-19-2003, 04:15 PM
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/inside_game/michael_silver/news/2003/02/19/open_mike/

Belle
02-19-2003, 04:37 PM
The guy whom wrote the article should try the stuff before writing an article? Either that or get his ephedra from a reliable source where they do not make placebo pills with sugar on the cheap.

Even if I were taking ephedra ..after reading that article I'd have to give it up having a few brain cells up here.

Charger
02-19-2003, 06:42 PM
bump, good article.

Eye2_Man
02-19-2003, 07:02 PM
Of course it will be. Easier to blame an inanimate thing rather than a person.

Phatman1179
02-19-2003, 08:26 PM
The tox report is not even in yet and instead of looking at a guy who was forced to do to much, under big pressure, when he was out of shape. Eaiser to scream "BAN ephedrine".

All the people killed by cars, why aren't we banning them?

Eye2_Man
02-19-2003, 08:46 PM
That stuff GLA is taking is probably better.

Oh yeah... suppose they do ban ephedra. It'll have to be substituted with something, right? Or else just double on the caffeine. That could be worse.

Are you going to buy some soon just in case?

Gator
02-20-2003, 04:48 AM
The debate continues..

If its proven that Bechler died from some ephedra use, which it is a shame, young guy, young family just starting out, it still wont top the deaths from booze, cigarettes, etc..

But oh yeah, those things dont kill people..Sorry my fault, what was I thinking...

Gator

Hibiscus09
02-20-2003, 05:40 AM
I'll go ahead & say this since I know you guys love me & will put up with a little bit of my crap. :) I don't care for the stuff. Granted he may have had more things going on than just the ephedra but how about the person who has no health problems, who starts with the minimum dose & almost (like me) or actually does die. It's happened before. I just think there is no way to tell how someone is going to react to the stuff. I know there are plenty of people who can tolerate it but it could be doing something even to them over the long haul.

I say ban the stuff.

Original Poster
02-20-2003, 07:03 AM
People can die from peanuts and bee stings as well.......Should we ban peanuts and kill all the bees ?

I don't suggest that.

Common sense, Education and a belief in Personally Responsibility tell me different.

Big Brother is in my life enough.

Don't get me wrong, as a parent myself the industry has not done enough to stop uneducated children from taking substances they know nothing about. That needs to change IMO.

I say "kill all (ok maybe not all ;) ) the lawyers" and "burn down the insurance companies". The world would be a better place.

PEACE

TwoWalks
02-20-2003, 07:32 AM
There was a time in this great country when people were responsible for their own actions. It would appear that those day's have faided into distant memory.

The government has the responsibility to make sure that products are tested safe for human consumption, not in making life choices for folks, but again those days are gone. People today do not want to make choices, they want the government to protect them from their own actions as well as the actions of others.

Reality: people have died from just about everything known within this universe. People have died from hair spray - glue to nail guns, consumption of fish to ephedra. Label the product fairly - keep track of possible dangers - inform purchasers and then let people make their own decisions. There are enough illegal drugs in this world making some folks wealthy without adding more to the list.

Hibiscus09
02-20-2003, 07:47 AM
Here's what I think of what ya'll think:

It kind of looks like me, doesn't it? LOL

iluvlifting2001
02-20-2003, 07:51 AM
Why not ban cigarettes then too? I mean they serve absolutely no purpose. I just cannot see them banning on thing and not something like Cigarettes. Anyone know why this is? Cigarette manufacturers have to much money?

Minotaur
02-20-2003, 08:14 AM
Originally posted by iluvlifting2001
Why not ban cigarettes then too? I mean they serve absolutely no purpose. I just cannot see them banning on thing and not something like Cigarettes. Anyone know why this is? Cigarette manufacturers have to much money?

Don't forget that the government is getting taxes on cigarettes and alcohol. "If anyone were to ask me, and I note they're not" (had to use that line from The Lord of the Rings), I'd say the reason marijuana and cocaine are not legal is because the government hasn't found a way to control and tax them. If the government found a way to control and tax them, I'll bet you could buy them in any corner liquor store.

But maybe I'm just cynical.

Belle
02-20-2003, 04:38 PM
People can die from peanuts and bee stings as well.......Should we ban peanuts and kill all the bees ?

I am amused. The vast majority of the population anywhere don't have a problem with peanut's and bee stings. There are rare allergies to it... that's why they haven't been banned. It smack's to me that Ephedra has given a lot more people problems and nasty side-effects and it isn't as if it was just peanut's to them.

At what point do you declare that something is lethal and harmful? When it has killed 1 or 2 people who were otherwise healthy or do you wait until a thousand or two drop dead from it? I think that the side effects say it all.

To my mind you do not need to use the stuff and it is counterproductive to muscle repair actually to vamp your metabolism up with that---I mean has anyone tested their cortisol levels after ingesting it? An hour is enough, and if you do over, your wasting your time to my mind. Hammering the muscles with more and going harder because of a drug seems a little counter productive. If you sleep well at night and eat right, who the hell needs props?

Belle
02-20-2003, 04:40 PM
Even more amused..at least they put Health Warnings on the sides of the packet where they are concerned? Do they do this with Ephedra? How serious is the warning if they do?

"Taking Ephedra can seriously damage your health," kind of message is it?

tracyb555
02-20-2003, 04:48 PM
Another article on the topic: http://content.health.msn.com/content/article/59/66803.htm

I'm all for people exercising common sense when using supplements. Too many people want a quick fix and are ready to try drugs rather than use common sense (sensible diet, exercise).

That said - when it comes to products like this, I think there is a loophole because some of these items are not subject to the same scrutiny as prescription drugs, etc. Do these types of products contain warnings of potential serious health risks? And are those warnings prominent enough? Consider the warning labels on tobacco products, alcohol, etc.

Hibiscus09
02-20-2003, 04:50 PM
Well, this is a different supplement, but that damn Yohimbe bottle said take one pill a day. Luckily, I only bit off a little less than half or I would be DEAD right now.

back2it
02-20-2003, 04:57 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Gator
[B]The debate continues..

If its proven that Bechler died from some ephedra use, which it is a shame, young guy, young family just starting out, it still wont top the deaths from booze, cigarettes, etc..



Ephedrine is not taxed as heavily as the above mentioned poisens .

back2it
02-20-2003, 05:02 PM
Originally posted by Hibiscus09
Well, this is a different supplement, but that damn Yohimbe bottle said take one pill a day. Luckily, I only bit off a little less than half or I would be DEAD right now.


Hibscus I gather you had a bad experience with Yohimbe . My herb book specifically states it should not be consumbed by women Period . This is not a new book by anymeans it was printed in the late 80's . Who asvised you to take it . I am not being a smart ass I would just like to know .

back2it
02-20-2003, 05:13 PM
If the guy had a health problem and others that died from it has heart conditions . Why is there even a thought to ban it . If you have severe heart problems and start an exercise program you might die too . Don't blame that on the exercise blame it on the fact that you were uninformed about a condition that could potentially kill you .DO your HOMEWORK . There is enough govenment out there right now trying to protect us from ourselves . Take responsibility for your own actions and don't put anything in your mouth that you haven't researched that includes ephedrine and other herbs , over the counter medicine and every prescription drug you can think of . They all have side effects if they didn't they would not work . It's that simple.

Belle
02-20-2003, 05:25 PM
it still wont top the deaths from booze, cigarettes, etc..

Deaths do occur on a larger scale where cigarette's and alcohol are concerned than they do ephedra. However, atleast people are warned about it and they know when they smoke close to 20 cig's a day or drink themselves stupid that it isn't healthy. They choose however, to go on using it after knowing that.

I know they don't ban them, and they may not ban ephedra either, but the point is, it really needs to be labelled a little more on the product exactly what it does and in what way that can be dangerous. Ironically when you smoke a cigarette or drink a drink the feeling is not one of, "Oh I'm dying" in fact it is the last thing people think about whilst doing that. But we are talking about athletes or people who are very fitness conscientious and healthy or wannting to be healthy having their lives snatched away from them prematurely because of the "lack" of a warning about side-effects that can be quite serious. The longer people justify the drug and say it is ok, the more people are going to fall into the trap of trying it without regards for what can occur for them.

I realise that as body builders are trying to cut at the same time as preserve if not build lean muscle, but it seems to me that taking something that makes the metabolism race is not the answer to that. Good food eaten in the right ratios to lose weight but yet feed the muscle with protein, plenty of rest to refuel and repair. In taking ephedra it seems to me that you are trying to attain a similar metabolsim to that of someone always on the go all the time or as if your running. This means catabolic for a good portion of the day and not ideal for body builders. My 2 cents worth...

Oops it was either cig or *** blocked out there?

Belle
02-20-2003, 05:29 PM
in the post...lol! I meant *** as in cig--we refer to them as f@g's in the UK not cig's.

Hibiscus09
02-20-2003, 07:27 PM
back2it, I've been told several times (once when preparing for a competition), once by someone who was a certified trainer who does competitions (female) & also by the person who sold me the supplement (whom I know & seems to be a walking supplement encyclopedia) that it could be taken by women & that it aided in reducing lower body fat. I also found many articles that stated something akin to the following:


"Yohimbe is an attractive supplement for bodybuilders in that it will help you in three key areas. It is useful for better pumps in your muscles when working out, helping in getting rid of stubborn bodyfat, and as a thermogenic extender. As was stated earlier in the article, it is used for keeping the blood in the penis for treating impotence, it can also be of benefit for bodybuilding in that it helps promote a better pump in your muscles as well from the dilation of peripheral blood vessels in your body. This could be of particular benefit for increasing vascularity in the body as well. This supplement is also particularly effective in cutting lower bodyfat in both men and women as well. The lower body has a higher number of the alpha-2 receptors, especially in women. These A2 receptors cause the body to hold onto fat. Yohimbe, since it is an alpha-2 andrenergic antagonist, really helps you fight the lower fat problems by being an alpha receptor blocker. You can almost draw a comparison to how nolvadex works by blocking estrogen from reaching the receptors in the body thereby reducing/eliminating the chance of gyno. In men these A2 receptors as most prevalent in the belly and love handles and in women in the calves, thighs, and buttocks. This alpha-2 blocking effect helps the body to release stubborn fat deposits."

___________________________


In any event -- I had been taking Phen Free which has yohimbe in it also. The pills I bought had 450mg per pill which I thought sounded like an awfully lot so I bit off not quite half of the pill. Real scientific, huh? Anway, it was a super bad experience. My heart raced tremendously -- when I checked it at the gym on the heart rate monitor -- I was getting pretty scary numbers. My eyes blurred & my right arm went numb. I kept getting these symptoms for the next couple of hours. It was no fun.

I didn't think you were being smartass. I just think it would be real nice if these companies determine dosages by bodyweight & not make pills with that high a concentration of the stuff in the first place. I had read up on yohimbe & unfortunately hadn't found the articles that tell women not to take it. :)

Charger
02-20-2003, 07:45 PM
I say ban all eca stacks, ban cigs, ban booze, ban McDonalds, ban it all. Whats next? coffee? Big Brother forces us to wear seat belts, wear helmets, I heard the other day they are considering a law that would fine parents that allow kids to not wear a helmut while riding bikes. Ban hard balls for our little leagers, they can injure our youth, they should also wear a face sheild at all times. Lets just ban baseball period, then no one gets hurt.
I am sure proud to live in a free country! What is wrong with us??
As adults we should have the FREEDOM!!!!! of choice, yes ECA's may not be wise, but that should be our choice. I can understand Big Brother warning us, but we got to stop this banning stuff. This supplement has been around for hundreds of years, as in most drugs, it's only when they are abused that they become dangerous.

Hibiscus09
02-20-2003, 07:48 PM
Well, we CAN'T ban McDonald's!!! :) (or COFFEE!!)

Charger
02-20-2003, 08:20 PM
Originally posted by Hibiscus09
Well, we CAN'T ban McDonald's!!! :) (or COFFEE!!)

Why not? Coffee has caffiene which is not good for you, we need to look at that and we all know Big Macs are loaded with fat, BAD!!! we should ban them. I'm sorry but is this what we want our Nation to be?

Hibiscus09
02-21-2003, 03:51 AM
My goodness! I was just cutting up! You must really like your ephedra! :) I don't think the comparisons are the same -- I just don't. We could discuss it endlessly. My point is it won't bother me any if they decide to ban ephedra & I don't think it's "big brother" watching over us.

Original Poster
02-21-2003, 05:34 AM
Originally posted by Charger
I say ban all eca stacks, ban cigs, ban booze, ban McDonalds, ban it all. Whats next? coffee? Big Brother forces us to wear seat belts, wear helmets, I heard the other day they are considering a law that would fine parents that allow kids to not wear a helmut while riding bikes. Ban hard balls for our little leagers, they can injure our youth, they should also wear a face sheild at all times. Lets just ban baseball period, then no one gets hurt.
I am sure proud to live in a free country! What is wrong with us??
As adults we should have the FREEDOM!!!!! of choice, yes ECA's may not be wise, but that should be our choice. I can understand Big Brother warning us, but we got to stop this banning stuff. This supplement has been around for hundreds of years, as in most drugs, it's only when they are abused that they become dangerous.

Amen Bro. :D

Hibiscus09
02-21-2003, 06:00 AM
I don't think it's true that ephedra is only dangerous when abused. At least stick to the facts. Some people may read the label, read all sorts of information about it, be healthy & still have an adverse reaction the first time they take it -- even at the lowest dosage. How about those people with unknown health conditions? Do you just say "Well, it's their responsibility, they should have known." Please! We're talking about people's lives. If you want to use extreme/ridiculous comparisons why not say "Cocaine is bad for us but we should be able to choose." Nonsense.

The supplement industry needs to be more closely regulated.

And by the way, seatbelts should be mandatory and children should wear helmets when riding their bikes. Why not if it avoids a serious head injury? Would you worry so much about YOUR OWN rights that you would put your child's head in jeopardy?

Can I get an amen from the ephedra users? LOL

back2it
02-21-2003, 03:41 PM
Hibicus Here is the quote from my book . Caution : may induce anxiety , panic attacks, and hallucinations in some individuals . May also cause elevated blood pressure , and heart rate , headache , dizziness and skin flushing . Should not be taken by Women or by anyone with high BP , heart ,liver , kidney disease or a psychological disorder . Should not be combined with foods rich in tyramine such as cheese , red wine , and liver as this combination may increase blood pressure to dangerous levels .

Hibiscus09
02-21-2003, 04:12 PM
Thanks, back. :) I had all of those symptoms. LOL

Charger
02-22-2003, 05:51 AM
Originally posted by Hibiscus09
My goodness! I was just cutting up! You must really like your ephedra! :)

I apologize for coming off so strong, I know you were cutting up and it wasn't intended to be a shot at you Hib., I just feel pretty strongly about this.
No, to the ephedra, I am not taking it at this time. I may if I can still choose to in the future.
My children also wear helmuts, they ALWAYS wear there seat belts. They have actually trained dad to do the same. I wear one even if I am going 2 blocks from home. You missed my point, it is the fact there is a law saying I HAVE to or I will be fined.
My point is, as a adult I should have the freedom to CHOOSE what is right and wrong for myself and my family.
As for banning ephedra, you said "My point is it won't bother me any if they decide to ban ephedra & I don't think it's "big brother" watching over us."
In my opinion we all should be conserned because it is once again, big brother telling us what we can do.
Heres some more comparisons, racing, people are killed all over the US on small tracks to Daytona, ban them? Rock climbers, too dangeroous, stop it. Hunting, too dangerous, ban guns, ban hunting.
On and on and on.
I applaude big brother for keeping us informed, requiring lables to give us info to make educated decisions, but please stop telling us what we must do to protect ourselves from ourselves. As long as we are not putting any one else in harms way, so be it.

Now, can I get a Amen for Freedom of Choice?

Hibiscus09
02-22-2003, 06:24 AM
originally posted by Charger
You missed my point

That made me break into a big grin because that's what my husband ALWAYS says to me. Men! I get your point Lucy -- we just disagree. LOL

Now, you'll probably get amens because I'm sure 3/4 of the people that come to bodybuilding sites feel the same way you do. I'm calling a truce now because I know we're not going to agree on this. :) I don't like arguing with you and Chi_Town anyway -- ya'll are so cute.

Charger
02-22-2003, 06:37 AM
Peace Hib, I can respect that. I'll say one thing, you got class!:D

Phatman1179
02-22-2003, 06:42 AM
I just don't like the government taking, yet again , one of our freedoms. (Ephedra, alcohol, whatever) and I really hate what has happened in Airports since 911, are right to unreasonable search and seizure will never be the same again. (Don't get me wrong, I understand why it's necessary but that don't mean I agree with it) On the Ban on ephedra, I agree with the post that said "The difference between poison and medicine is the dosage with all drugs"

Hibiscus09
02-22-2003, 06:54 AM
Thanks Charger! :) I'm going to quit reading this thread -- I always want to say something back. Lol

Original Poster
02-24-2003, 04:55 AM
Originally posted by Charger
Peace Hib, I can respect that. I'll say one thing, you got class!:D

Amen..........;)

Class people here IMO. :D

back2it
02-27-2003, 05:58 PM
2 kids died today when their father gave them too much of an over the counter cold medication . I didn't catch the name of the product . My point is that the over the counter stuff is a dangerous as any herb or prescription med if abused and taken in the wring dosage .
I can't imagine how this man feels thinking that he was taking care of his kids by giving them something he considered safe to relieve their symtoms of a simple cold .

Minotaur
02-27-2003, 06:36 PM
Originally posted by back2it
I can't imagine how this man feels thinking that he was taking care of his kids by giving them something he considered safe to relieve their symtoms of a simple cold .

I don't know that I could ever live with myself.

Belle
02-28-2003, 12:28 AM
Diphenhydramine
Chlorpheniramine
Brompheniramine
Clemastine

None are good for kids really. I use homeopathic stuff wherever I can.