How I wrestled my way to Islam

[laham]

A blind ex professionel wrestler tell his story about how
he came to islam.

very inspiring story.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2YZGGDGUWE

[Dimee Jenteyel]

Yes, and I can find many stories about how other people came to Christianity or any other religion.

[EOY]

Mashallah, yeah I remember watching this video before. Great story.

[TranceNRG]

It's a nice video
But one thing I dislike about all these "revert" videos, is that you can sense a clear segregation from what is "normal."

All of a sudden all of (most of) these "reverts" begin speaking a different way. They begin to look and dress differently and they keep using Arabic words.

To me, as a person who values the esoteric aspects of religion alot more than the exoretic and who values the inner faith more than the external "public show" , this aspect of these videos is quite a "turn off".

It sends out the wrong message that if you wanna be a muslim, you must look a certain way, talk a certain way and dress a certain way. I for one (I'm sure many muslims will disagree with me), do not agree with this clear "look at me, I'm a muslim now and I'm different" message that all these "reverts" seem to send across.


I'm sorry for the rant...
But I've seen it many times...
It even gets to me when I speak to muslim people who can't finish a senstence without saying Arabic words, or who emphasize on their image and looks rather then their faith and inner peace.



Again...
Sorry for the rant.


May peace be upon all those who follow the right guidance

[Puya]

I'm sorry for the rant...
But I've seen it many times...
It even gets to me when I speak to muslim people who can't finish a senstence without saying Arabic words, or who emphasize on their image and looks rather then their faith and inner peace.

What do you mean by that? Like wearing a cap, robe, short hair and a beard?

[deeyala]

They begin to look and dress differently and they keep using Arabic words.

What do you mean?


i speak Arabic all the time...!






seroiusly,though. Some words just don't translate into English..
let's see you finding the equivalent of "masha'a Allah" or "Subhan Allah"
They simply convey your beliefs to your external environment.. And i think, unless you're trying hard to suppress it, they'll eventually surface..
I mean, if you're thinking to yourself "Subhan Allah", you will eventually hear yourself saying it

To me, as a person who values the esoteric aspects of religion alot more than the exoretic and who values the inner faith more than the external "public show" , this aspect of these videos is quite a "turn off".

It sends out the wrong message that if you wanna be a muslim, you must look a certain way, talk a certain way and dress a certain way. I for one (I'm sure many muslims will disagree with me), do not agree with this clear "look at me, I'm a muslim now and I'm different" message that all these "reverts" seem to send across.

Do you mind their outward display or do you dislike it when it's associated with lack of inner peace.? because both situatiosn are different..

And some external display of faith is inevitable if you closely adhere to your religion..

Head scarf ,for one, is a neon sign that says "Look at me, i am Muslim..! "
And if it bothers people that much that i am different, then they'd better start wearing head scarves, too.

so should I give up on that to better "fit in" ?

Same as to saying "Al Salamu alaykum". You're actually rewarded when you greet fellow muslims with that, would you so "generously" replace it with a "Hi" ...?

And if some friends asked you to go to the bar with them.. Would you go so that you don;t look different? or would you not go and lie about the reason why you are not joining them?
See.. Inevitable

[TranceNRG]

seroiusly,though. Some words just don't translate into English..
let's see you finding the equivalent of "masha'a Allah" or "Subhan Allah"
They simply convey your beliefs to your external environment.. And i think, unless you're trying hard to suppress it, they'll eventually surface..
I mean, if you're thinking to yourself "Subhan Allah", you will eventually hear yourself saying it

The translation might not be the exact way but it can still send the message across.

Inshallah = God willing
and etc.

Do you mind their outward display or do you dislike it when it's associated with lack of inner peace.? because both situatiosn are different..

Both.
I can never see myself "looking" like those muslims.
and it's even worse, when they "look" like muslims and don't have the disposition and the inner faith and peace that Islam commands.

Head scarf ,for one, is a neon sign that says "Look at me, i am Muslim..! "
And if it bothers people that much that i am different, then they'd better start wearing head scarves, too.

no no
see...
Headscarf is ok.
But Burka and Niqab are not (to me).

so should I give up on that to better "fit in" ?

One can adhere to Islam AND "fit in" very well.

Same as to saying "Al Salamu alaykum". You're actually rewarded when you greet fellow muslims with that, would you so "generously" replace it with a "Hi" ...?

And if some friends asked you to go to the bar with them.. Would you go so that you don;t look different? or would you not go and lie about the reason why you are not joining them?
See.. Inevitable

I'd just say hello

at the end, it all depends on people's priorities.

On my list, looking like a muslim is at the bottom, and being in a muslim in the heart is at the top.

But perhaps, others would prefer to look like a muslim first, then care about faith.

The desert Arabs say, "We believe." Say, "Ye have no faith; but ye (only)say, 'We have submitted our wills to God,' For not yet has Faith entered your hearts. But if ye obey God and His Apostle, He will not belittle aught of your deeds: for God is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful." (49:14)

[mahmoud mohamed]

It's a nice video
But one thing I dislike about all these "revert" videos, is that you can sense a clear segregation from what is "normal."

All of a sudden all of (most of) these "reverts" begin speaking a different way. They begin to look and dress differently and they keep using Arabic words.

To me, as a person who values the esoteric aspects of religion alot more than the exoretic and who values the inner faith more than the external "public show" , this aspect of these videos is quite a "turn off".

It sends out the wrong message that if you wanna be a muslim, you must look a certain way, talk a certain way and dress a certain way. I for one (I'm sure many muslims will disagree with me), do not agree with this clear "look at me, I'm a muslim now and I'm different" message that all these "reverts" seem to send across.


I'm sorry for the rant...
But I've seen it many times...
It even gets to me when I speak to muslim people who can't finish a senstence without saying Arabic words, or who emphasize on their image and looks rather then their faith and inner peace.



Again...
Sorry for the rant.


May peace be upon all those who follow the right guidance

A very good point Trance, a very good point.

By the way, I respect very much who reverts to Islam of course, and I hope to see the video but no time to download using dial up, by God willing we'll bring DSL soon.

Anyway, what Trance said is very important, The problem here is that many new moslims are wrongly affected by the bedouin culture of the gulf countries, Cause they have money to send more what we can call (daeyaa) who's a person who talks and summons people to Islam, the problem is that they usually don't show Islam as pure and universal as it is, they're influenced by their bedouin culture,

I'm glad I'm Egyptian, cause I can get to the true sources of Islam very Easily, Cause here is Alashar university the biggest and most respected, Where Islam is taught as it is regardless of any culture, as pure and wonderful as it is.

[TranceNRG]

A very good pint Trance, a very good point.

By the way, I respect very much who reverts to Islam of course, and I hope to see the video but no time to download using dial up, by God willing we'll bring DSL soon.

Anyway, what Trance said is very important, The problem here is that many new moslims are wrongly affected by the bedouin culture of the gulf countries, Cause they have money to send more what we can call (daeyaa) who's a person who talks and summons people to Islam, the problem is that they usually don't show Islam as pure and universal as it is, They're influenced by their bedouin culture,

I'm glad I'm Egyptian, cause I can get to the true sources of Islam very Easily, Cause here is Alashar university the biggest and most respected, Where Islam is taught as it is regardless of any culture, as pure and wonderful as it is.

I believe it's unfortunate that in many areas, the Arabic culture is mixed with the pure religion of Islam. As a Persian and as someone who studies Islam from a non-arab perspective, this arab zeal and pride is quite clear.
Unfortunately Islam is often misused as a means of Arab nationalism.

[mahmoud mohamed]

I believe it's unfortunate that in many areas, the Arabic culture is mixed with the pure religion of Islam. As a Persian and as someone who studies Islam from a non-arab perspective, this arab zeal and pride is quite clear.
Unfortunately Islam is often misused as a means of Arab nationalism.

Well, it's a point, the arab pride, it's this pride that made the gulf countries help saddam before in his war with Iran, Oh, now we get to politics, well, some analysts say that part of the problem was Iran trying to spread its shias way of revolution, and of course it was both sides wrong thinking.

It's obvious that Iran stopped trying to spread the shias way of revolution, cause it realized that it's completely different from the Sunni way. Sunnis does not believe at all in the rule of the religious institution, they believe that the ruler should be a normal person elected.

And in fact Sunni scholars accommodated with kingdom way of rule also, they didn't fight it all the way, but adapted, and Islam does not forbid the Kingdom way of rule provided that it's just of course.

Anyway, sorry for getting politics into this subject, but you give a very good point, if we want to unit as moslims, both arabian and non arabian moslims must get off any pride.

[TranceNRG]

Well, it's a point, the arab pride, it's this pride that made the gulf countries help saddam before in his war with Iran, Oh, now we get to politics, well, some analysts say that part of the problem was Iran trying to spread its shias way of revolution, and of course it was both sides wrong thinking.
It's obvious that Iran stopped trying to spread the shias way of revolution, cause it realized that it's completely different from the Sunni way. Sunnis does not believe at all it the rule of the religious institution, they believe that the ruler should be a normal person elected.

Anyway, sorry for getting politics into this subject, but you give a very good point, if we want to unit as moslims, both arabian and non arabian moslims must get off any pride.

Losing pride isn't easy, brother.

It's quite hard for people to unlearn the cultural myths and fables that they learned from their parents and environment. Most people will knock on any door to find ways to defend what their culture and their parents have taught them.

[Lloyd Braun]

But one thing I dislike about all these "revert" videos, is that you can sense a clear segregation from what is "normal."

All of a sudden all of (most of) these "reverts" begin speaking a different way. They begin to look and dress differently and they keep using Arabic words.

To me, as a person who values the esoteric aspects of religion alot more than the exoretic and who values the inner faith more than the external "public show" , this aspect of these videos is quite a "turn off".

It sends out the wrong message that if you wanna be a muslim, you must look a certain way, talk a certain way and dress a certain way. I for one (I'm sure many muslims will disagree with me), do not agree with this clear "look at me, I'm a muslim now and I'm different" message that all these "reverts" seem to send across.

I wish I could rep you Trance.

I have found somewhat of the same sentiment in many Eastern Orthodox Churches.

[mahmoud mohamed]

Losing pride isn't easy, brother.

It's quite hard for people to unlearn the cultural myths and fables that they learned from their parents and environment. Most people will knock on any door to find ways to defend what their culture and their parents have taught them.

Wait a minute bro, If I'm right you suggests that most arabs feel superior to non Arab moslims, This Is Completely Wrong, And believe me I'm an Arab and Knows what I'm talking about.

Don't generalize please bro, it's the first mistake.

[TranceNRG]

Wait a minute bro, If I'm right you suggests that most arabs feel superior to non Arab moslims, This Is Completely Wrong, And believe me I'm an Arab and Knows what I'm talking about.

Don't generalize please bro, it's the first mistake.

No no
Not most.
But those who use Islam to pursue Arab Nationalism and/or various types of worldly prides.
And they're often the ones who externally look very muslim.

[Puya]

There are also Iranians who try and push Shiism as Persian pride as well.

Things go both ways. Both wrong.

I don't get the externally muslim part you're talking about though, TranceNRG, you didn't respond to my post.

[TranceNRG]

There are also Iranians who try and push Shiism as Persian pride as well.

Things go both ways. Both wrong.

I don't get the externally muslim part you're talking about though, TranceNRG, you didn't respond to my post.

Yes and I dislike both sides.
Religion isn't something you can push on other people.

I don't see the necessity to look like this, rather than this

[Abyss]

Good stuff, God Bless.

[SYRIANKID]

It's a nice video
But one thing I dislike about all these "revert" videos, is that you can sense a clear segregation from what is "normal."

All of a sudden all of (most of) these "reverts" begin speaking a different way. They begin to look and dress differently and they keep using Arabic words.

To me, as a person who values the esoteric aspects of religion alot more than the exoretic and who values the inner faith more than the external "public show" , this aspect of these videos is quite a "turn off".

There is no particular way to "dress" in Islam. But wearing a cap, turban, and beard for males ARE explicit ways to emulate the Prophetic example. So the things you find turn-offs are actually quite a part of the Islamic way of life. And why should the fact that someone dresses according to the Prophetic example mean that they are trying to replace spirituality for those things? Why should you assume such a thing? Who is to say they are not several-fold times more spiritual than you, so much so that they are inspired to be religious in every facet of life. If you saw the companions of the Prophet (pbuh) living the Prophetic example in every aspect of life, would you make that same evil assumption of them? Not everyone who tries to embody Islam is doing so to "show off" or compensate for a lacking spirituality. Often it is a RESULT of spirituality.

I think it's great that they make the effort to learn words of praise (as used by the Prophet (pbuh) / verses of the Qur'an in Arabic, because they are striving to follow the Prophetic injunction:

The Prophet (pbuh) said:

You are as You have Praised Yourself.

Which means it is best to encompass and understand supplications and words of praise as they were revealed. Their meaning is accessible to everyone, but we must strive to learn them in the way they were revealed.

[TranceNRG]

There is no particular way to "dress" in Islam. But wearing a cap, turban, and beard for males ARE explicit ways to emulate the Prophetic example. So the things you find turn-offs are actually quite a part of the Islamic way of life. And why should the fact that someone dresses according to the Prophetic example mean that they are trying to replace spirituality for those things? Why should you assume such a thing? Who is to say they are not several-fold times more spiritual than you, so much so that they are inspired to be religious in every facet of life. If you saw the companions of the Prophet (pbuh) living the Prophetic example in every aspect of life, would you make that same evil assumption of them? Not everyone who tries to embody Islam is doing so to "show off" or compensate for a lacking spirituality. Often it is a RESULT of spirituality.

I speak based on observation and experiences.
Often (not always) those who are too occupied with the external image, miss the significance of the internal faith.

I think it's great that they make the effort to learn words of praise (as used by the Prophet (pbuh) / verses of the Qur'an in Arabic, because they are striving to follow the Prophetic injunction:

The Prophet (pbuh) said:

You are as You have Praised Yourself.

Which means it is best to encompass and understand supplications and words of praise as they were revealed. Their meaning is accessible to everyone, but we must strive to learn them in the way they were revealed.

I don't understand the necessity to learn Arabics and wear a cap, when a person still eats haram food and participates in usury.

As I previously said, people have different priorities.
My list focuses more on the esoteric and inner aspect of Islam more.
Perhaps some others care more about their external image.

[SYRIANKID]

I speak based on observation and experiences.
Often (not always) those who are too occupied with the external image, miss the significance of the internal faith.

Then you should meet more people, who are so occupied with internal faith that it exudes to everything they say, wear, hear etc.

I don't understand the necessity to learn Arabics and wear a cap, when a person still eats haram food and participates in usury.

Because a person commits major sins might as well stop doing anything good they do? How about people always strive to do anything religious they can? That's better than nothing.

A person who learns Arabic to better read the Qur'an and supplicate and wears a cap to emulate the Prophet (pbuh) and stand in prayer WHILE still eating haram food and participating in usury is better than the person who does none of those good things and eats haram food and participates in usury.

As I previously said, people have different priorities.
My list focuses more on the esoteric and inner aspect of Islam more.
Perhaps some others care more about their external image.

Perhaps the people you belittle by claiming they are only focused on the external image have surpassed you in both the inner and outer aspects of faith? Why do you even assume you are more knowledgeable or observant in the inner aspects? Isn't that vain assumption, in itself, one of the principal sins that sufism aims to extinguish? You should cut out the source of this tendency to assume the worst of people or to be haughty or think yourself better than them. One of the most important ideas is to always assume the people you meet are better than yourself, God may have forgiven more of their sins and accepted more of their good intentions than yours.

How dominant can inner faith be if its effects don't penetrate to outward features. A person who is pious on the inside will express this in their external form, the way they behave and talk and with whom they hold company all the way to the following the Prophetic example in the most detailed affairs.

You should ask yourself what you lack that others have that motivates them to follow the Prophetic example which you disdain.

[TranceNRG]

Then you should meet more people, who are so occupied with internal faith that it exudes to everything they say, wear, hear etc.

That'd be difficult for me.
Since I don't really enjoy spending time with muslims.
Based on my personal observations and experiences, most of them are quite judgmental.

Because a person commits major sins might as well stop doing anything good they do? How about people always strive to do anything religious they can? That's better than nothing.

How is wearing a cap a good thing?
How does parroting a few Arabic words, make a person a better person?

A person who learns Arabic to better read the Qur'an and supplicate and wears a cap to emulate the Prophet (pbuh) and stand in prayer WHILE still eating haram food and participating in usury is better than the person who does none of those good things and eats haram food and participates in usury.

but worse than a person who doesn't wear a cap and doesn't speak Arabic but doesn't eat haram food and doesn't participate in Usury.

What you said is obvious, what I'm trying to say is bolded.

Perhaps the people you belittle by claiming they are only focused on the external image have surpassed you in both the inner and outer aspects of faith? Why do you even assume you are more knowledgeable or observant in the inner aspects? Isn't that vain assumption, in itself, one of the principal sins that sufism aims to extinguish? You should cut out the source of this tendency to assume the worst of people or to be haughty or think yourself better than them. One of the most important ideas is to always assume the people you meet are better than yourself, God may have forgiven more of their sins and accepted more of their good intentions than yours.

Perhaps...
I don't assume anything.
I didn't even say anything about myself other than I prefer esoteric people and inner spiritual teachings.
I do meet everyone with a positive attitude but I don't enjoy rigidity.

How dominant can inner faith be if its effects don't penetrate to outward features. A person who is pious on the inside will express this in their external form, the way they behave and talk and with whom they hold company all the way to the following the Prophetic example in the most detailed affairs.

You should ask yourself what you lack that others have that motivates them to follow the Prophetic example which you disdain.

and you should ask yourself this...
What If prophet Mohammad wasn't an Arab?
Would he still speak Arabic and dress like Arabs?
He wore those clothes because everybody else were wearing them too.
So, why should non-arabs follow Arabic cultural outfits and speak Arabic to claim they're "good" muslims?

[Puya]

Yes and I dislike both sides.
Religion isn't something you can push on other people.

I don't see the necessity to look like this, rather than this

That guy is an Arab, most likely from the Gulf, isn't that like a cultural outfit moreso than religious one in that region?

I find that alot of converts to Islam are first introduced to the religion by the mystical Arabian culture. Most of them have a fascination with Arabian culture (movies and what not), and when they learn Islam and eventually accept it as the divine message, they incorporate Arabian lifestyle into their daily outings.

I find no wrong in that...everyone has different personalities, no reason to become something you aren't if you don't want to. Thats they way I see it, maybe I am wrong, but hey, I am a convert to the religion and am still learning the ways (for 3 years now).

Of course, coming from a Persian background, I already have alot of the cultural aspects down.

[TranceNRG]

That guy is an Arab, most likely from the Gulf, isn't that like a cultural outfit moreso than religious one in that region?

No... apparently that's how pious muslims must look.
Long beard and a cap seem to be a sign of piety.

I find that alot of converts to Islam are first introduced to the religion by the mystical Arabian culture. Most of them have a fascination with Arabian culture (movies and what not), and when they learn Islam and eventually accept it as the divine message, they incorporate Arabian lifestyle into their daily outings.

I find no wrong in that...everyone has different personalities, no reason to become something you aren't if you don't want to. Thats they way I see it, maybe I am wrong, but hey, I am a convert to the religion and am still learning the ways (for 3 years now).

you're correct.
for example, I'm not an Arab, so I don't see why I need to dress like an Arab to be a "better" muslim. You know what I mean?

[SYRIANKID]

How is wearing a cap a good thing?
How does parroting a few Arabic words, make a person a better person?

If your intentions are sincere, you are rewarded for your remembrance of God and striving to emulate the Prophetic example. How does that make you a better person? Who is better than the one who loves God and the Prophet (pbuh) more than themselves? I'm sure I don't need to enumerate for you the merits of this deep infatuation. I'm sure I don't need to quote the Rumi poetry on this matter. The lover always has the beloved on their mind and reminders of them on himself.

but worse than a person who doesn't wear a cap and doesn't speak Arabic but doesn't eat haram food and doesn't participate in Usury.

What you said is obvious, what I'm trying to say is bolded.

They would be worse because they are doing major sins. You, however, seem to think that anyone who bests you in external matters must be worse off in spiritual matters or committing major sins. There are people on Earth who are more spiritual, more conscious of God, AND do great deeds in all aspects of their life, those you can see and those you can't. So you should appreciate the fact that when you see a person who is careful even about the smallest matters than he may be one of those people. Maybe they have advice for you to reach their state?

Perhaps...
I don't assume anything.
I didn't even say anything about myself other than I prefer esoteric people and inner spiritual teachings.
I do meet everyone with a positive attitude but I don't enjoy rigidity.

Great

and you should ask yourself this...
What If prophet Mohammad wasn't an Arab?
Would he still speak Arabic and dress like Arabs?
So, why should non-arabs follow Arabic cultural outfits and speak Arabic to claim they're "good" muslims?

There's nothing special about "Arabic" or "Arabic culture". If the Qur'an was revealed in any other language, then THAT would be the language to know in order to best understand and express the exact words of the revelation. It could have even been Persian, it doesn't matter. This is the option for those who want to go above and beyond.

As for the beard, cap, and turban...these were not just parts of Arabic culture, these are particular matters that the Prophet (pbuh) advised to maintain especially during prayer. We're not talking about wearing leather shoes just because that was the fashion back in the day, we're talking about particular traits and accessories to have on that have nothing in particular to do with "Arab" culture. If the angels are even said to wear turbans, do you think it is just a matter of any human culture? The Prophet (pbuh) advised to grow the beard, saying it is the example of all Prophets before him also. Were all Prophets arab?

[Puya]

Also in Shiism as I am learning, a beard is not so much of a necessity and that shaving is permissible. Is this correct, I sort of overheard it in a conversation at my masjid one time before, never really inquired about it.

[LeilaM]

It's a nice video
But one thing I dislike about all these "revert" videos, is that you can sense a clear segregation from what is "normal."

huh?

All of a sudden all of (most of) these "reverts" begin speaking a different way. They begin to look and dress differently and they keep using Arabic words.

LOL ok I've seen that often. No argument there. Well dressing differently- if you're a woman convert, then yeah, I'd say that's pretty common. I think you're probably talking about those who convert and then begin wearing the ethnic wear of other countries? I've seen this a lot, for some folks it does look like dress-up, but for others I think it's just their way of identifying to others their affiliations.

At the same time, a lot of new converts actually get pressured into taking on certain cultural practises as well. Sometimes if a female convert marries a man from a different culture, it actually becomes expected of her to sort of "convert her culture" as well. I personally disagree with this standpoint, but I see it happen A LOT. Me, I'm married to someone of a diff culture than my own, and though I never agreed to go along with this sort of mind set, I do admit that occasionally I'll slip out with an Iraqi colloquialism at times- but I think that's more because it's what I end up hearing all the time rather than "Leila is trying to be Arab." It'll never happen, so I don't bother trying, lol. I do see some sisters when they first convert do this, though. I've actually witnessed a few sisters who suddenly developed foreign accents... in their own native English. hehe go figure.

I think most folks grow out of it, although I do admit to having some nice mid east clothes in my closet

To me, as a person who values the esoteric aspects of religion alot more than the exoretic and who values the inner faith more than the external "public show" , this aspect of these videos is quite a "turn off".

is the declaration of one's esotericism an external act?

I didn't watch this video, but I have an idea of what you're talking about. More about this later on, I'll say something about convert videos and essays in a minute.

[quote]
It sends out the wrong message that if you wanna be a muslim, you must look a certain way, talk a certain way and dress a certain way. I for one (I'm sure many muslims will disagree with me), do not agree with this clear "look at me, I'm a muslim now and I'm different" message that all these "reverts" seem to send across.


I'm sorry for the rant...
But I've seen it many times...
It even gets to me when I speak to muslim people who can't finish a senstence without saying Arabic words, or who emphasize on their image and looks rather then their faith and inner peace.
[QUOTE]

A bit on convert videos and books and essays and websites:

Note several things, namely they will be more often than not:

White and from middle class Christian or secular backgrounds- they will become the "spokespersons" for greater society. Total drag that Muslims buy into this when it comes to dawah, but I was even asked one time to help with an Islamic convert website, and they specifically asked for more "white people." That right there turned me off more than anything else-- they were trying to attract a certain demographic to their mosque. I didn't see them reaching out to the Hispanic or Black populations.

There will, of course, be the token Jewish convert to Islam. Muslims slobber over these converts because they think the person will suddenly confirm everything they say about Zionism AND Judaism as being true-- and ergo the person's background will somehow give the whole opinion legitimacy because of it. Similar to the white convert thing- seeking to attract mainstream ppl and seek legitimacy in the greater non-Muslim community.

Converts fresh from conversion are a lot different from converts a good five to twenty years later. Most of the newbie Muslims are fresh in the throes of convertitis (term swiped from the "Sunni Sister" website, but she is spot on about it). They are zealous to not only be Muslims, but to somehow absorb every aspect of what they *perceieve* Islam to be at that time-- often construed as Arab or Persian (seen it with shi'i Muslim converts, too) or Afghan or Pakistani practises.

Also take into account that a lot of times converts aren't always accepted as being "real Muslims" by the greater, non-convert population. This is reallly common, too. Many get pushed to the fringe, depending on the community makeup and size of mosque, etc. Sometimes those converts end up adopting other cultural practises to reduce ethnic friction, or to just plain be accepted. I did write an article about some of the poo converts get to go through a while ago-- even though some of my feelings have changed a bit about it, the fact is that there's a whole lot of non-acceptance that goes hand in hand with the acceptance.

I wrote a bit about it here, several years ago. I think it has some good pts, though not a phD thesis or anything: http://www.jana.org/NewsPub/Stories/...77997186.shtml

[LeilaM]

Also in Shiism as I am learning, a beard is not so much of a necessity and that shaving is permissible. Is this correct, I sort of overheard it in a conversation at my masjid one time before, never really inquired about it.

no, not really. It's ihtiyah wajib according to most marja. Allowances made for medical reasons, occupation (some jobs you have to wear face seals where hair would be an impediment in certain industries, etc), inability to grow a beard (remember those poor Hazara men harassed by the Taliban?), etc. Supposed to keep it groomed, of course! No scraggle, no particular length either.

[TranceNRG]

If your intentions are sincere, you are rewarded for your remembrance of God and striving to emulate the Prophetic example. How does that make you a better person? Who is better than the one who loves God and the Prophet (pbuh) more than themselves? I'm sure I don't need to enumerate for you the merits of this deep infatuation. I'm sure I don't need to quote the Rumi poetry on this matter. The lover always has the beloved on their mind and reminders of them on himself.

infatuation is different from love.
and love doesn't depend on wearing a cap and speaking a foreign language.
Beloved is GOD first, THEN His messenger.

They would be worse because they are doing major sins. You, however, seem to think that anyone who bests you in external matters must be worse off in spiritual matters or committing major sins. There are people on Earth who are more spiritual, more conscious of God, AND do great deeds in all aspects of their life, those you can see and those you can't. So you should appreciate the fact that when you see a person who is careful even about the smallest matters than he may be one of those people. Maybe they have advice for you to reach their state?

not at all.
What I'm saying is that spiritual and inner peace is my priority. and I find it difficult to understand, why would anyone wear a cap and grow a long beard and speak a foreign language, when their inner faith and other much more important aspacts of their religion is lacking?


I appreciate people who are more in control of their inner esoteric faith, than their external public image.
Keep in mind, I'm not saying those who wear caps are "bad."
I'm saying, purifying one's heart is more important than wearing a cap.

There's nothing special about "Arabic" or "Arabic culture". If the Qur'an was revealed in any other language, then THAT would be the language to know in order to best understand and express the exact words of the revelation. It could have even been Persian, it doesn't matter. This is the option for those who want to go above and beyond.

There are many muslims who go "above and beyong" without going beneath and within.

As for the beard, cap, and turban...these were not just parts of Arabic culture, these are particular matters that the Prophet (pbuh) advised to maintain especially during prayer. We're not talking about wearing leather shoes just because that was the fashion back in the day, we're talking about particular traits and accessories to have on that have nothing in particular to do with "Arab" culture. If the angels are even said to wear turbans, do you think it is just a matter of any human culture? The Prophet (pbuh) advised to grow the beard, saying it is the example of all Prophets before him also. Were all Prophets arab?

Before I continue... can you present authentic hadith about head caps, turbans and speaking Arabic, while NOT praying?


Bottom line is...
It's alot better to like THIS OR THIS and have a pure heart and follow Islam in the heart than to look like THIS or THIS and not have an esoteric and thorough inner faith in one's heart.

[TranceNRG]

Also in Shiism as I am learning, a beard is not so much of a necessity and that shaving is permissible. Is this correct, I sort of overheard it in a conversation at my masjid one time before, never really inquired about it.

The length of the beard must be so that it's an actual beard.
It doesn't have to be long.
i.e. This is fine, and you could even trim this a bit more.

[TranceNRG]

LeilaM, thank you for your very informative and thorough post.
My favourite line from your post is the following...

"They are zealous to not only be Muslims, but to somehow absorb every aspect of what they *perceieve* Islam to be at that time-- often construed as Arab or Persian (seen it with shi'i Muslim converts, too) or Afghan or Pakistani practises."


Just a quick note...
Unfortunately, this blind zeal and perception, isn't limited only to the reverts. Many muslims who grew up in an Islamic environment, also presume Islam is what they perceive from their surroundings. In turn, you'd end up with a situation where the blind is leading the blind.