Quanity -vs- Quality

[ChemEnginBeast]

I have a friend who is young who is under the idea that more weight means more muscle. I would just like to say that in all my studies i have found that no matter how much weight you push, if your form is off, no amount of weight is really going to help you gain muscle in the proper respect. My friend does 600lbs for shrugs and that goes to show he does have strength but he still has no traps....I have seen guy's who do 60lbs for shrugs and you can see the definition in that area. I would like to say to those who think that more is better......To much of a good thing isn't always a good thing.......think about what you want before you start pushing heavy weights..oh....my friend is in his early 20's and i am 34 and he is having shoulder pain and various other ailments due to extreme weight .

Extreme weight is great to impress those sexy and hot ladies... but even they know it is for show no body to go with those weights give it up.....

Work safe and smart.

[Uriel_da_man]

Well lifting more weight through adaptation will probably build bigger muscles (so long as you provide your body withou enough food to do so). But lifting more weight by changing the mechanics of the exercise, now that's completely different, and the only thing you can gain from that is realy a big injury.

[Baradir]

Thenagain, how do you cheat on shrugs? Starting the shrug off with your legs? Thats just wierd...

[John Prophet]

Originally Posted by ChemEnginBeast

I have a friend who is young who is under the idea that more weight means more muscle. I would just like to say that in all my studies i have found that no matter how much weight you push, if your form is off, no amount of weight is really going to help you gain muscle in the proper respect. My friend does 600lbs for shrugs and that goes to show he does have strength but he still has no traps....I have seen guy's who do 60lbs for shrugs and you can see the definition in that area. I would like to say to those who think that more is better......To much of a good thing isn't always a good thing.......think about what you want before you start pushing heavy weights..oh....my friend is in his early 20's and i am 34 and he is having shoulder pain and various other ailments due to extreme weight .

Extreme weight is great to impress those sexy and hot ladies... but even they know it is for show no body to go with those weights give it up.....

Work safe and smart.

I think you are taking reasoning to extremes.....you are making everything "either-or"

bigger weights DO make more muscle, lol. Thats called progressive overload

If you can find me a pro who only benches 225 u let me know.


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form....again...you cant take it to extremes, because MOST pros have what us laymen would call 'crappy form'

here..a few examples
top 5 olympia finisher, crappy form http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5aUv7stPztQ

top 3 olympia finisher, crappy form IMO (tiny ROM) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPon8KUQaMY


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so its not "either or"

youre not going to impress the ladies benching 135 and u wont be big either

[Phenom01]

In this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5aUv7stPztQ i dont see whats so bad about alternating the arms.

[coolness]

Originally Posted by Baradir

Thenagain, how do you cheat on shrugs? Starting the shrug off with your legs? Thats just wierd...

Do calf raises, and throw your back into it, only doing about a 1/2 inch raise with the weight.

[all pro]

Originally Posted by Phenom01

In this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5aUv7stPztQ i dont see whats so bad about alternating the arms.

It isn't bad form, it's horrible form. That guy is gonna tear up his back, shoulders and elbows.

[Phenom01]

Originally Posted by all pro

It isn't bad form, it's horrible form. That guy is gonna tear up his back, shoulders and elbows.

oh i see

[VikingMan]

Originally Posted by ChemEnginBeast

Extreme weight is great to impress those sexy and hot ladies... but even they know it is for show no body to go with those weights give it up.....

LOL, last time I checked, most women aren't too impressed by a guy moving big numbers. Girls like Brad Pitt like physiques, not moving inhuman amounts of weight.

And you are wrong in your intial premise, that more weight does not equal more muscle. One MUST certainly be concerned with avoiding form that will get you hurt, but if you are no stronger by this time next year, you will likely be the same size.

[ChemEnginBeast]

Ok...I get that more weight means more muscle.....even I know that, but to push huge amounts of weight with no results is what I am refering too. I also believe in increasing weight but at a rate as I grow. My friend looks good but the weights he is pushing is to much for his physique and he began complaining of pain in the legs and and shoulders..........so i guessed with his body type and the amount of weights he lifts I see why.if he was a big guy i could see it but he is not that huge yet and I fear he will hurt himself and I rather not see a young kid get hurt early on in his career>

[rhsking909]

what ur saying iw not necessiarily true i know a dude who maxed 295 and he did it w/ perfect form and hes small it depends on ur died mainly because diest is 90% and weights are 10% oh ur muscle gain

[rhsking909]

1st off john ur theory is wrong if i was ronnie coleman i could bench 225 and gain 10 lbs of muscle a day lol steroids and insulin do wonders for muscle gain even w/ low weights

[Lion Heart]

I'm going to disagree a bit with something I read here.

Don't take this to mean form isn't important, but I've seen guys get big by cheating the hell out of things like bb curl just as a for instance.

[monolithdigital]

Moving more weight makes muscles grow, but that can be misleading.

The muscle moves across either one or two joints, now form is important since it stabilizes the stress on a muscle, if you have two muscles moving 20% more weight then you could lift with the one, then the first muscle is only getting 60% of the stress it is capable of (not scientific numbers, mind you) therefore, you are not using more weight at all.
Changing your form recruits other muscles to do the work, and I have always been a believer that you should aim to hit the muscles with full intensity, involving the smallest weight you can, which will save your joints, and your ego, a lot of injury.
Concider a lot of guys throw their backs out just from dragging heavy weights all around the gym, when they could get the same workout with less, removing barbell swing and other bad habits.

[BigStew]

I agree to a point. the best way to build muscle is in good form but some people have developed good and even great bodies using bad form.

[SugrSean]

Originally Posted by rhsking909

1st off john ur theory is wrong if i was ronnie coleman i could bench 225 and gain 10 lbs of muscle a day lol steroids and insulin do wonders for muscle gain even w/ low weights

He could gain 10 lbs. of fat lifting 225, cause that's not work for him. Your assumption that steroids remove the need for hard work is WAY OFF. In fact, most increase the amount of work you're able to do.

I wouldn't call out John, either. The dude has forgotten more than most of us will ever know.

[John Prophet]

people who use bad form never get anywhere

[SugrSean]

People often mistake those pics for barbell curls. They're actually weighted standing sit-ups

[Liquidtensi0n]

Originally Posted by rhsking909

1st off john ur theory is wrong if i was ronnie coleman i could bench 225 and gain 10 lbs of muscle a day lol steroids and insulin do wonders for muscle gain even w/ low weights

That's about as stupid a comment as I've ever heard on here. If all it took was some chemicals and anyone could do it then why are there only so few pro BBs at the top? Why doesn't everyone just get into the Olympia cause all it takes is some juice? Don't open your trap about **** you clearly don't know a thing about.

[Uriel_da_man]

Originally Posted by rhsking909

1st off john ur theory is wrong if i was ronnie coleman i could bench 225 and gain 10 lbs of muscle a day lol steroids and insulin do wonders for muscle gain even w/ low weights

Not realy. Steroids will cause increased protein synthesis, but you must get the protein synthesis started first. People who take anabolic steroids and don't traing gain like 5 pounds a year and half of that is water. Plenty of skinny athletes take anabolic steroids and are skinny as ****. And insulin you already have as much of it as you want, since it's produced in direct proportion to how much food you throw in.

[doubledee]

Originally Posted by SugrSean

People often mistake those pics for barbell curls. They're actually weighted standing sit-ups

lmao!!

[VikingMan]

You know, to go back to the original post, I had a thought.

The original point was that the poster's friend was using 600LBS for shrugs, and not experiencing any size gains in his traps. The real issue here is the effectiveness of some exercises. Barbell shrugs suck. I never got any results out of them, and many others say the same thing. For traps, heavy deads and power shrugs are a much better option. But let's look at exercises where form breakdown isn't going to results in massive increases in poudages used. For such lifts, more weight DOES equal more size, as long as your lifting with any amount of volume at all, AND you're eating. So you've got your benching (whether barbell or dumbbell), squatting, deadlifting, rowing, military, etc. For those kinds of lifts, more weight is going to equal more size, as long as you're using a full range of motion.

[Varangian]

I'm with VikingMan on this one. You HAVE to lift more weights and get stronger in order to grow. I'd like to add that nutrition and proper rest is as important as the lifting itself.

There is semantics to be had ad infinitum on this one: you can bench with only the bar 4X100 and still get a helluva pump, but what is better suited to stimulate the muscular hypertrophy in your body to meet your goals?

A lower rep range causes myofibrillated hypertrophy to dominate, while higher reps against a sub-maximal load facilitates mainly sarcoplasmic hypertrophy. Myofibrillated hypertrophy is said to give you the strength, while sarcoplasmic is said to give you the mass. . .

In my humble opinion, a rep range around max 8 with as much weights as I can handle (while keping decent form) on the compound exercises, and a slghtly higher rep range on the isolation exercises seems to be the ticket. Either way you slice it you gotta push yourself and strive to lift heavier. It just doesn't make any sense that you'd be able to add 10lbs of muscle without getting any stronger.

-V

[ChemEnginBeast]

I agree with most of you more weight equals more muscle but if your lifting a lot of weight and your joints hurt and you see no progress then you need to reevaluate what you are doing for something is not right. i have got one hell of a pump out of dumbbell shrugs (i do not use barbells for shrugs) at 85 lbs rather then over stepping my ability and do 600 lbs with bad form or suffer from joint pain.....i am a purist in that sense. I have great strength as well but i want to be able to build myself for a long time not be crippled at 50 or suffering from pains in the joints which seems to be a common ailment among lifters and bodybuilders.

[VikingMan]

Joint pain comes with the territory. You lift weights long enough, you'll find something somewhere hurts. The basic point still stands though. If more size is what you're after, you're going to have to get stronger.

By all means though, take a step back if you're experiencing pain. Or better yet, find a way to make the pain go away WHILE keeping the intensity up. Whether through adjusting your form, or using a different lift, whatever. I've had to fight through shoulder and elbow pain from pressing and pulling movements. But I set a 315X3 PR recently on flat barbell bench, zero pain. It can be done. More weight can be added to the bar without having to endure too much pain. Unless you flat out injure something, then rest is the order of business to give it time to heal.

[Uriel_da_man]

OMG I just lost half of my reply I HATE vBulletin!

[VikingMan]

Originally Posted by Uriel_da_man

OMG I just lost half of my reply I HATE vBulletin!

I agree. This forum engine sucks. Constantly freaking out, timing out. Course, it's not that surprising. This site generates a TON of traffic and hits.

[Liquidtensi0n]

I seriously doubt the OPs friend is shrugging 600 with a full ROM. If he was his traps should be pretty massive. It might be some sort of rediculous wobble with a 1/2 inch ROM. Have the dude try legit shrugs or power shrugs with half that weight (if he can move it) and see if he doesn't get some trappage.

[monolithdigital]

Originally Posted by BigStew

I agree to a point. the best way to build muscle is in good form but some people have developed good and even great bodies using bad form.

Yea, that IMHO is people building muscle from genetics. The form will still work muscles, you will have to use more weight to get the same stumulus, but that promoted injury.

and also IMHO you should never be feeling joint pain. Muscle pain is a given, but joint pain is the bodys way of telling you you are lifting too heavy, with bad form, or that the supporting muscles aren't developed enough, possibly a combination of the above.