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  1. #1
    Registered User TheFitmissy's Avatar
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    DNP for women???

    is it safe enough to use dnp for women? is there any other "magic drug" that burns fat quick?
    Last edited by fitmissy; 12-24-2006 at 05:49 AM.
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  2. #2
    Registered User raysmith's Avatar
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    No offence with that attitude your certainly not ready to use it or any drug like it.

    It CAN kill you if you dont know what your doing. There's NO magic pill, just jump on an excersise bike and lower your calories.
    Ansew to the few pms I've gotten since popping back on-line...

    NO I never got full amount back from 'him', still owed for FAKE t3 and wu fee... More than a year on I can't be bothered to carry on chasing it up.. Unfortunatly word is he is on another bb community forum still selling
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  3. #3
    Registered User HerveDuchemin's Avatar
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    bad

    That stuff's horrible for you. It's used to ignite dynamite. You might as well do crystal meth. I can only imagine that even though you might lose weight with those things, you must be destroying your insides for the sake of losing fat. Why not do it in a more healhty way? Try some yohimbine supplements like Hot-Rox Extreme and just diet very strictly and exercise. If you're going to do it, it's your choice, but read up on it and know what you're putting into your body. Male or female, some things just shouldn't be ingested, regardless of their effects.
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  4. #4
    Registered User TheFitmissy's Avatar
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    thanks anyway, did read about it but still... just want to make myself believe it isnt that bad...
    i would like to go down to 12% bodyfat. atm im 15-15.5. was 13% 2 months ago after a 6 weeks natural training course and strictly engineered diet. my diet got messed up for the last 8 weeks... due to 13% bf my period stopped and my gp adviced me to put weight on... i did put 5 lbs on, feel bad about it now even though i got the desired result and my cycle balanced itself out. thank god

    I am now impatient and i guess wanted a quick fix... hence being so sceptical about the whole concept of using dnp or similar.
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  5. #5
    Registered User joeohlandt's Avatar
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    I just looked at your profile and if you lose much weight you will be losing important things. Your 5"8, 123 lbs and measure 35-24-35 with 15% BF.

    Wake up, it doesn't get much better than that and you want to take some dangerous stuff like DNP. You don't need to diet, you need a shrink to help you with your compulsion.
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  6. #6
    Registered User HerveDuchemin's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by fitmissy View Post
    thanks anyway, did read about it but still... just want to make myself believe it isnt that bad...
    i would like to go down to 12% bodyfat. atm im 15-15.5. was 13% 2 months ago after a 6 weeks natural training course and strictly engineered diet. my diet got messed up for the last 8 weeks... due to 13% bf my period stopped and my gp adviced me to put weight on... i did put 5 lbs on, feel bad about it now even though i got the desired result and my cycle balanced itself out. thank god

    I am now impatient and i guess wanted a quick fix... hence being so sceptical about the whole concept of using dnp or similar.
    You'll probably lose weight with that stuff, but the detrimental changes in your mood and the way your body feels will nullify any good "looks" you might gain. Also, I would imagine the weight that you lose won't be all fat, and at your current bodyweight, I would suggest holding onto as much muscle mass as possible. Try to use the mirror as your gauge, and get back on a strict diet if you want to get to 12%. If you use DNP and don't diet strict, you won't get any results. If you diet strict, exercise, and do NOT use DNP, you will look fantastic as long as you stay focused! Ask yourself....would a "fitmissy" put that kind of stuff in her body? That's not very fit!!
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  7. #7
    Prove you're worth a damn DJohnson's Avatar
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    I wouldn't give DNP to anything I don't want dead. It may be cytotoxic and may kill you even if you do everything right.
    History: Mar, 2001: 135lbs @ ~14% | Nov, 2004: 245lbs @ ~40% | Dec, 2006: 168lbs @ 5.5%ish | Nov, 2008: 177lbs @ 5.5%ish
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  8. #8
    Registered User HerveDuchemin's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by DJohnson View Post
    I wouldn't give DNP to anything I don't want dead. It may be cytotoxic and may kill you even if you do everything right.
    Well said. Thats a scary way to think about it. Definitely not worth it. Use it on 4th of July to blow stuff up instead.
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  9. #9
    Banned Conciliator's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by HerveDuchemin View Post
    That stuff's horrible for you. It's used to ignite dynamite. You might as well do crystal meth. I can only imagine that even though you might lose weight with those things, you must be destroying your insides for the sake of losing fat. Why not do it in a more healhty way? Try some yohimbine supplements like Hot-Rox Extreme and just diet very strictly and exercise. If you're going to do it, it's your choice, but read up on it and know what you're putting into your body. Male or female, some things just shouldn't be ingested, regardless of their effects.
    I'm sorry, but this is just a regurgitation of the typical anti-DNP nonsense. I can tell you have only a superficial understanding of the drug, in which case you should not be advising people on it.

    DNP is not "horrible" for you. It can be dangerous if abused, but has little to no adverse effects at reasonable dosages. In fact, DNP has protective properties at lower concentrations. It's well established that it limits or even eliminates mitochondrial reactive oxygen species.

    The fact that DNP has chemical properties that allow it to be used as an explosive, dye, wood preservative, etc has nothing to do with it's human use. There's no reason to mention it. The sensational effect accomplishes nothing, but just misleads people.

    Comparing DNP to crystal meth demonstrates ignorance of the drug. DNP is not psychoactive. It's not addictive. It's not particularly dangerous when used carefully. If you think DNP "destroys your insides", then you're seriously mistaken as to what the drug does and what it's capable of.

    Please do not make uninformed posts about DNP. It just perpetuates (and starts) myths while helping no one to understand it better.
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  10. #10
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    Originally Posted by DJohnson View Post
    I wouldn't give DNP to anything I don't want dead. It may be cytotoxic and may kill you even if you do everything right.
    DNP is not cytotoxic at low concentrations. It's protective. DNP is known as to be a "metabolic poison", but this is because it interferes with energy production. In this sense, it is "toxic" to energy production. But this is what makes the drug work. Even at higher concentrations, DNP is not harmful because of ATP depletion, but from the excessive generation of heat from uncoupling.

    If you do everything right, DNP is not going to kill you. Hundreds of thousands of people have used DNP and the deaths are few and far between, almost always because of overdose.
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  11. #11
    Registered User HerveDuchemin's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Conciliator View Post
    I'm sorry, but this is just a regurgitation of the typical anti-DNP nonsense. I can tell you have only a superficial understanding of the drug, in which case you should not be advising people on it.

    DNP is not "horrible" for you. It can be dangerous if abused, but has little to no adverse effects at reasonable dosages. In fact, DNP has protective properties at lower concentrations. It's well established that it limits or even eliminates mitochondrial reactive oxygen species.

    The fact that DNP has chemical properties that allow it to be used as an explosive, dye, wood preservative, etc has nothing to do with it's human use. There's no reason to mention it. The sensational effect accomplishes nothing, but just misleads people.

    Comparing DNP to crystal meth demonstrates ignorance of the drug. DNP is not psychoactive. It's not addictive. It's not particularly dangerous when used carefully. If you think DNP "destroys your insides", then you're seriously mistaken as to what the drug does and what it's capable of.

    Please do not make uninformed posts about DNP. It just perpetuates (and starts) myths while helping no one to understand it better.

    You're totally correct. My understanding of it is superficial. If you could give me some insight into healthful benefits of DNP supplementation, I would greatly appreciate it. Up to now, I know of no healthful benefit from the substance, despite my superficial understanding of it. I also apologize for perpetuating a myth. I will stand by the fact that the substance is not good for you though, until I read otherwise from a trusted source. Furthermore, I can tell you are probably an advocate of the substance either from personal experience, or from knowing people who have taken it. All I know is that with all the substances out there, I've never heard someone say (please excuse me for posting this).....don't do that "Deca" it's absolutely horrible for you and will kill you. DNP gets its reputation for a reason, just like Lasix does as a loop diuretic. Some substances are very risky to mess with. I would not recommend DNP to anyone when there are many other logical alternatives which are safer.
    Last edited by HerveDuchemin; 12-24-2006 at 05:03 PM.
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  12. #12
    Registered User HerveDuchemin's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Conciliator View Post

    The fact that DNP has chemical properties that allow it to be used as an explosive, dye, wood preservative, etc has nothing to do with it's human use. There's no reason to mention it.
    Please read what you wrote.
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  13. #13
    I'm still 27 in hex :) Plato458's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by joeohlandt View Post
    I just looked at your profile and if you lose much weight you will be losing important things. Your 5"8, 123 lbs and measure 35-24-35 with 15% BF.

    You don't need to diet, you need a shrink to help you with your compulsion.
    Spot on. What are you aiming for to have such a low BF ? If your cycle is stopping/mixed up, then your body isn't happy with what you're doing to it.

    Not sure that I'd go as far as the shrink angle, however I would like to know what's driving your ambition to go to a lower BF - it looks a bit odd. I'm 5'7" and at 123lbs, I looked gaunt and was a UK size 6/8. You have another inch on me and more muscle from what I can guess BF wise so would be even smaller.

    Are you after the Lena Zavaroni look ?

    Take Care
    Px

    PS does Lynda Carter look like 12% to you ? I don't think so...

    Last edited by Plato458; 12-24-2006 at 05:24 PM.
    Never Give Up Never Surrender ;-P

    I did once and look what happened - 30% BF

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  14. #14
    Prove you're worth a damn DJohnson's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Conciliator View Post
    DNP is not cytotoxic at low concentrations.
    I'd bet there is no research showing this. It may not be cytotoxic, but it surely isn't a sure thing that it isn't.

    Originally Posted by Conciliator View Post
    If you do everything right, DNP is not going to kill you.
    This isn't true, people have died who did everything right. Haven't you heard to stories of people who take DNP and after they stop they continue to lose weight dramatically until death or near death?

    Originally Posted by Conciliator View Post
    Hundreds of thousands of people have used DNP and the deaths are few and far between, almost always because of overdose.
    Hundreds of thousands?


    My apologies, but I think the fact that the results are so great is leading you to subconsciously believe it is safer than it is. It is without a doubt, the most dangerous bodybuilding substance out there. It is unpredictable and can not be used with certainty of living.

    Regardless, DNP shouldn't be for discussion on this board. This board is generally for legal weight loss only, safe or unsafe.
    History: Mar, 2001: 135lbs @ ~14% | Nov, 2004: 245lbs @ ~40% | Dec, 2006: 168lbs @ 5.5%ish | Nov, 2008: 177lbs @ 5.5%ish
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  15. #15
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    Originally Posted by HerveDuchemin View Post
    You're totally correct. My understanding of it is superficial. If you could give me some insight into healthful benefits of DNP supplementation, I would greatly appreciate it. Up to now, I know of no healthful benefit from the substance, despite my superficial understanding of it. I also apologize for perpetuating a myth. I will stand by the fact that the substance is not good for you though, until I read otherwise from a trusted source.
    I think it's admirable that you would recognize your lack of knowledge in this area and ask for more information. It's what any true philosopher (lover of wisdom) would do.

    Here are a few random studies I just pulled out of my bookmarks. I've given a quick explanation if it's questionable what the point is:

    Novel neuroprotective, neuritogenic and anti-amyloidogenic properties of 2,4-dinitrophenol: the gentle face of Janus.
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q..._uids=16754295
    This landmark paper obviously made an effort to change the widespread misperception that DNP is only dangerous and toxic It points to protective effects in the brain, possible treatments for neurodegenerative diseases like Parkinson's, and even extension of lifespan.

    The mitochondrial uncoupler 2,4-dinitrophenol attenuates tissue damage and improves mitochondrial homeostasis following transient focal cerebral ischemia.
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...=pubmed_docsum
    This is one of many studies showing that DNP is protective in models where blood flow is interrupted (stroke, heart attack) and then restored. Usually there is a massive release of oxidative stress when this happens. DNP greatly limits this.

    Regulation of human male germ cell death by modulators of ATP production.
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...=pubmed_docsum
    This study shows that DNP prevents germ cell apoptosis (death). This is the same thing testosterone does. When apoptosis is accelerated, you get all kinds of fertility problems. Looks like DNP may actually help here, depending on the mechanism behind the irregular apoptosis.

    Energy requirement for degradation of tumor-associated protein p53.
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...=pubmed_docsum
    p53 is a transcription factor recognized as having anti-cancer effects in cells. There's only good news here with regards to DNP, as DNP has been shown to increase p53 expression. This has been shown both directly in this study and also via AMPK, which DNP clearly activates. AMPK is likely the mechanism through which DNP exerts this anti-cancer effect.

    The mitochondrial uncoupling agent 2,4-dinitrophenol improves mitochondrial function, attenuates oxidative damage, and increases white matter sparing in the contused spinal cord.
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q..._uids=15672630
    This paper showed that pretreatment with DNP significantly reduced the damage from a bruising injury to the spinal cord. Again, this has to do with a reduction in oxidative stress.

    This is just a handful of dozens of papers. There are more showing positive effects on mitochondrial stability, prevention of atherosclerosis, and all sorts of other things that natural uncpupling proteins are involved in. Just jump on pubmed and look at related papers.
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    Originally Posted by Conciliator View Post
    I think it's admirable that you would recognize your lack of knowledge in this area and ask for more information. It's what any true philosopher (lover of wisdom) would do.

    Here are a few random studies I just pulled out of my bookmarks. I've given a quick explanation if it's questionable what the point is:

    Novel neuroprotective, neuritogenic and anti-amyloidogenic properties of 2,4-dinitrophenol: the gentle face of Janus.
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q..._uids=16754295
    This landmark paper obviously made an effort to change the widespread misperception that DNP is only dangerous and toxic It points to protective effects in the brain, possible treatments for neurodegenerative diseases like Parkinson's, and even extension of lifespan.

    The mitochondrial uncoupler 2,4-dinitrophenol attenuates tissue damage and improves mitochondrial homeostasis following transient focal cerebral ischemia.
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...=pubmed_docsum
    This is one of many studies showing that DNP is protective in models where blood flow is interrupted (stroke, heart attack) and then restored. Usually there is a massive release of oxidative stress when this happens. DNP greatly limits this.

    Regulation of human male germ cell death by modulators of ATP production.
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...=pubmed_docsum
    This study shows that DNP prevents germ cell apoptosis (death). This is the same thing testosterone does. When apoptosis is accelerated, you get all kinds of fertility problems. Looks like DNP may actually help here, depending on the mechanism behind the irregular apoptosis.

    Energy requirement for degradation of tumor-associated protein p53.
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...=pubmed_docsum
    p53 is a transcription factor recognized as having anti-cancer effects in cells. There's only good news here with regards to DNP, as DNP has been shown to increase p53 expression. This has been shown both directly in this study and also via AMPK, which DNP clearly activates. AMPK is likely the mechanism through which DNP exerts this anti-cancer effect.

    The mitochondrial uncoupling agent 2,4-dinitrophenol improves mitochondrial function, attenuates oxidative damage, and increases white matter sparing in the contused spinal cord.
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q..._uids=15672630
    This paper showed that pretreatment with DNP significantly reduced the damage from a bruising injury to the spinal cord. Again, this has to do with a reduction in oxidative stress.

    This is just a handful of dozens of papers. There are more showing positive effects on mitochondrial stability, prevention of atherosclerosis, and all sorts of other things that natural uncpupling proteins are involved in. Just jump on pubmed and look at related papers.
    Thanks so much. I must partly stand corrected. However, can't you find an equal amount of evidence to support the dangers of DNP as well? You proved your point though, and backed up your knowledge. I will back off, but still don't recommend it to a non-competitive bodybuilder who is just looking to lose bodyfat for cosmetic reasons.
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    Originally Posted by DJohnson View Post
    I'd bet there is no research showing this. It may not be cytotoxic, but it surely isn't a sure thing that it isn't.
    See the research above.
    Originally Posted by DJohnson View Post
    This isn't true, people have died who did everything right. Haven't you heard to stories of people who take DNP and after they stop they continue to lose weight dramatically until death or near death?
    No, I've never heard of a story like this. I don't think you know what you're talking about. It sounds like another myth that you're just perpetuating. There's nothing like this in the ATSDR's extensive toxicological report. When there were overdoses on DNP, there were fatal fevers. Uncoupling does not continue for weeks as people waste away. Not even close.
    Originally Posted by DJohnson View Post
    Hundreds of thousands?
    This just demonstrates your ignorance of the history of the drug. In the 1930's, in the middle of its use, over 100,000 people were estimated to have taken DNP. Dozens of over the counter DNP products permeated the weight loss market.
    Originally Posted by DJohnson View Post
    My apologies, but I think the fact that the results are so great is leading you to subconsciously believe it is safer than it is. It is without a doubt, the most dangerous bodybuilding substance out there. It is unpredictable and can not be used with certainty of living.
    No, there's no subconscious influence here. I've reviewed the research and history extensively and base my position on objective facts. You're seriously mistaken as to its dangers.
    Originally Posted by DJohnson View Post
    Regardless, DNP shouldn't be for discussion on this board. This board is generally for legal weight loss only, safe or unsafe.
    Again, you're demonstrating your ignorance of the drug. DNP is not illegal. It's not a prescription drug and it's not a controlled substance. If you have it, it's generally legal to possess and ingest.
    Last edited by Conciliator; 12-24-2006 at 05:46 PM.
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    Originally Posted by HerveDuchemin View Post
    Thanks so much. I must partly stand corrected. However, can't you find an equal amount of evidence to support the dangers of DNP as well?
    There are other side effects. Sweating is one obvious one. A rash occurs in 10-20% of people, but it's easily treated. Cataracts were observed at a low incidence rate of about 0.1%, but shouldn't be a problem if you have a healthy antioxidant system. Besides that there are no other clear side effects. Agranulocytosis was reported a total of eight times I believe, but the incidence rate is so low it has questionable connection to DNP. The dangers are grossly overstated.
    Originally Posted by HerveDuchemin View Post
    You proved your point though, and backed up your knowledge. I will back off, but still don't recommend it to a non-competitive bodybuilder who is just looking to lose bodyfat for cosmetic reasons.
    I agree, I don't generally recommend it either. It should never eclipe good exercise and diet habits. However, it can be used safely and is profoundly effective.
    Last edited by Conciliator; 12-24-2006 at 06:04 PM.
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    Prove you're worth a damn DJohnson's Avatar
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    I consider myself extremely objective to the subject as well.

    I checked it looks like over a hundred thousand people took DNP in the 1930s, fair enough. Hundreds of thousands is close enough.

    It's illegal to sell for the use of human ingestion. Hence it is not legal.

    I don't have time to go through everything as I have no interest in DNP myself. Although I am a bit colored by your advocation DNP use on a forum which is viewed by kids of people who would no doubt overdose it. Like I said, we have different boards for this.

    Originally Posted by Building the Perfect Beast by L Rea
    A Note On DNP Dangers
    It should be noted that I am aware of one individual who suffered severe side effects while employing multiple DNP protocols back-to-back. He began personal experimentation at a bodyweight of over 260LBS. Once he discontinued selfadministration of the substance his bodyweight continued to decline even after the initiation of 6iu of GH 3xd.
    He finally sought medical intervention that resulted in a group of the AMA's
    finest scratching their heads and no answers as to why. Eventually the lad stopped losing body mass and leveled out at 170-plus pounds. Though I was never asked, it seems likely that the problem was extreme cyto-toxicity. After all, DNP is essentially a bug spray.
    Last edited by DJohnson; 12-24-2006 at 10:51 PM. Reason: I meant objective, my bad.
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    Originally Posted by DJohnson View Post
    I consider myself extremely subjective to the subject as well.
    I'm guessing you mean here that you have a very subjective opinion on DNP, one that's based on your personal feelings and intuitions and not on the objective facts.
    Originally Posted by DJohnson View Post
    It's illegal to sell for the use of human ingestion. Hence it is not legal.
    Hence it is not legal to sell for human use. It is legal to use for weight loss.
    Originally Posted by DJohnson View Post
    I don't have time to go through everything as I have no interest in DNP myself. Although I am a bit colored by your advocation DNP use on a forum which is viewed by kids of people who would no doubt overdose it. Like I said, we have different boards for this.
    I think it's silly that you'd say there's "no doubt" that people on this board would, in fact, overdose if they used DNP. People who do use it generally take it very seriously and fatal overdoses are extremely rare, even when it's used carelessly. Further, you're incorrect to say I'm advocating its use. As I said above, "I don't generally recommend it either. It should never eclipse good exercise and diet habits." This fact doesn't justify maligning DNP and misrepresenting it though. The sporting establishment did the same thing with steroids, blowing their dangers out of proportion simply because they felt people shouldn't be using them. Let's be straight when we talk about the dangers, no hype and no propaganda.

    Arthur L Rea has no idea what he's talking about when it comes to DNP. His discussion of DNP in Building the Perfect beast is laughable. He draws tenuous conclusions and completely misinterprets some of the research he cites. The story of his friend is not at all representative of DNP's effects. He even mentions the use of polypharmacy, which means there were confounding factors. I'm sure if you were to ask Arthur L Rea how there was such a latent cytotoxic effect, he'd be at a loss to explain it, or even what this "cytotoxic" effect was. He just repeats the same rhetoric about it being a pesticide. Here's a post I made a few months ago about his talk of combining DNP and insulin:
    When he talks about DNP in absolute terms ("it makes the process only about 40% efficient", "it doubles glucose uptake") it makes me cringe. It also makes me think he doesn't understand what he's talking about. [DNP works in a dose-dependant manner.]

    Maybe he should mention that the insulin independant glucose uptake seen with DNP is due to AMPK activation... the same enzyme that downregulates mTOR and shuts off protein synthesis. DNP will oppose the anabolic effects of insulin. And as we know, insulin will inhibit lipolysis.

    I think the best part of that whole article is when he cites the abstract from this study and then totally misinterprets it. He concludes that "DNP aids in inducing an environment of insulin resistance in adipose sites thus decreasing the ability for fat cells to get food." Umm, no, that's not what the study said at all. The whole point was that DNP did NOT induce insulin resistance like glucosamine does, desite the fact that both lower the ATP content in cells. Thus, the insulin resistance is not due to ATP depletion, but something else. He obviously never took a look at the full text, where right in the introduction they say "For study, we employed sodium azide (NaN3) and dinitrophenol (DNP), which affect mitochondrial oxidative phosphorylation and subsequently lower cellular ATP content. We failed to induce insulin resistance in 3T3-L1 adipocytes with NaN3 and DNP." It seems you'd want to be sure about what you're writing about before putting something like this into a book.

    In my opinion, you're not only going to get the anabolic properties of insulin and the fat-loss properties of DNP. You're also going to get the anti-lipolytic properties of insulin and the anti-anabolic properties of DNP. I think the combination is stupid.
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    oh dear...

    thank you for collecting all these infos for me. thanks for your time too, guys.

    and those, they think i am after the lena zavaroni anorexic look... ill post some of my lean pics over to, just for you to see the difference between anorexic and lean women... ok? some women are perfectionists, some will be happy just with being a lil plump........

    i studied pharmacy at uni before, now i study molecular science... i know about dosage and effect of wonder drugs, i was interested how you think about using them for women and perhaps personal experience with the stuff. to be honest i was after some courage with dnp. well, that didnt work at all. lol

    anyway, have a great xmas guys and thank you again.
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    it's a quite simple choice imo. I have absolutely nothing against DNP, I think it's wonderfull and I recognize both the benefits and the side effects of usage.

    HOWEVER unless you are competing at high level comps then I do not believe it should be used.
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    Originally Posted by DJohnson View Post
    I consider myself extremely objective to the subject as well.
    I just noticed that this was edited to say "objective" instead of the original "subjective".

    It appears you had it right the first time. In order to be objective about something, you have to be aware of the objective facts. As we see, you're not even close to "extremely objective". You have a poor understanding of DNP and are doing nothing but misrepresent it. On the other hand, you have plenty of subjective reasons for why you feel DNP is terrible, outrageously dangerous, and only good for things you "want dead". It's probably too late, but I'd ask a moderator to change it back to subjective.
    Last edited by Conciliator; 12-27-2006 at 01:23 AM.
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    Wink

    Just stick to hydroxycut.
    Ansew to the few pms I've gotten since popping back on-line...

    NO I never got full amount back from 'him', still owed for FAKE t3 and wu fee... More than a year on I can't be bothered to carry on chasing it up.. Unfortunatly word is he is on another bb community forum still selling
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    Conciliator,

    while I acknowledge the wealth of info you have provided here with regards to potentially beneficial effects of DNP in certain tissues and under certain circumstances, I have to say that I still disagree on the statement that DNP can be "safely" used.

    A really "safe" usage would only be provided under a strict medical advisory / control of certain physioloigcal parameters like body temperature, heart frequency, blood pressure and fluid-homeostasis. but who can afford such conditions? it is extremely unlikely that the average guy / gal who wants to quickly lose some fat will provide such optimal measurement conditions.

    IMO the culprit of the dissense between you and me is that you might possibly be right that "theoretically" DNP-intake could be managed in a fairly safe way, while I hold against that in "real world applications" such conditions are usually not provided - hence DNP usage can usually be NOT considered to be safe.

    But I think we can agree to disagree on that particular point.


    Nonetheless, let me point out two other things I find problematic with DNP:

    the uncoupling happens not only in adipocytes: it happens in muscles as well as in many other cells, including the brain. and here we run into some serious problems:

    1. muscle wasting because of the additional "energetic loss" in myocytes. this process is very pro-catabolic and will not only increase the chance that you will lose quite a bit of your hard earned muscle mass, but will also very badly affect your resting metabolic state after you have finished your DNP cycle: due to decreased muscle mass, overall protein turnover and resting metabolic rate will be decreased, as well as your performance in the gym.

    2. "energetic loss" is something the brain doesn't like at all! while it may be true that DNP can have specific beneficial properties and be protective against oxidative stress, cognitive performance will definitely be negatively affected during the DNP cycle. "lethargy" is also a consequence of decreased energetic levels of the brain. So, if you need to have excellent focus and concentration (e.g. at work) than DNP is surely nothing one would like to take for fat loss.

    finally, let make a side note: while you have several times emphasized the potential protective effects of DNP against oxidative stress, I wonder how you come to the conclusion that "cataracts should not be an issue when you have astrong antioxidative system" (see one of your previous posts).


    All in all, I appreciate your contributions, Conciliator because you have brought some valid points that a worth to be discussed with regards to DNP and its actions in the body. I want to apologize if I may have possibly been a bit rude in an other thread some weeks ago. your posts have defintiely made me more educated on that topic than before.

    Nonetheless, while you might be correct in "theory", I still think that DNP is not only not safe in "real-life-applications" but could have negative impact on body composition during a prolonged time after a DNP cycle and also negatively affect brain function, which excludes its usage by all people who rely on perfect cognition, memory and focus (e.g. students, drivers, aviators, medical stuff,etc. - everything where slight errors can have deleterious consequences to oneself and to others).

    fat loss should never be seen isolated but needs to be a part of "body-recomposition": increase / preserve lean mass while reduce fat mass. since DNP affects both fat AND muscle mass, it is NOT good for body recomposition.

    best regards


    david
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    Originally Posted by Dr.P View Post
    Conciliator,

    while I acknowledge the wealth of info you have provided here with regards to potentially beneficial effects of DNP in certain tissues and under certain circumstances, I have to say that I still disagree on the statement that DNP can be "safely" used.

    A really "safe" usage would only be provided under a strict medical advisory / control of certain physioloigcal parameters like body temperature, heart frequency, blood pressure and fluid-homeostasis. but who can afford such conditions? it is extremely unlikely that the average guy / gal who wants to quickly lose some fat will provide such optimal measurement conditions.
    DNP has no significant effect on heart rate. There's no relationship between pulse and metabolic rate with DNP. Normotensive patients show no change in blood pressure and hypertensive patients show a striking amelioration in blood pressure soon after starting DNP. Further, DNP does not deplete heart glycogen (it depletes liver and muscle glycogen in acute toxicity), in contrast to thyroxine. I think you're inventing reasons that DNP requires medical oversight. I do, however, agree that DNP requires much more oversight than your typical drug, which is why the generel public is unfit to use it.
    Originally Posted by Dr.P View Post
    IMO the culprit of the dissense between you and me is that you might possibly be right that "theoretically" DNP-intake could be managed in a fairly safe way, while I hold against that in "real world applications" such conditions are usually not provided - hence DNP usage can usually be NOT considered to be safe.

    But I think we can agree to disagree on that particular point.
    Yes, I do disagree. You may think I'm being theoretical, but much of what I say comes from DNP use in practice, both from the original research in humans and from my experience and the experience of others who give me feedback.
    Originally Posted by Dr.P View Post
    Nonetheless, let me point out two other things I find problematic with DNP:

    the uncoupling happens not only in adipocytes: it happens in muscles as well as in many other cells, including the brain. and here we run into some serious problems:

    1. muscle wasting because of the additional "energetic loss" in myocytes. this process is very pro-catabolic and will not only increase the chance that you will lose quite a bit of your hard earned muscle mass, but will also very badly affect your resting metabolic state after you have finished your DNP cycle: due to decreased muscle mass, overall protein turnover and resting metabolic rate will be decreased, as well as your performance in the gym.
    I almost feel like you're trying to egg me on here with another blatantly incorrect statement. Did you come up with this line of reasoning yourself? Are you trying to invent reasons to malign DNP? If you're not sure about something, please don't just speculate in the direction you want things to go.

    DNP is markedly protein sparing. In contrast to thyroxine, losses in body protein are minimal. By ramping up AMPK, DNP preferentially burns FFA's. And probably by impairing insulin secretion, DNP hastens lipolysis and spares glucose for the brain. DNP not at all "very pro-catabolic", you are sorely mistaken. If you'd like quotes from the original research on DNP's anti-catabolic nature, I can post them for you.

    Originally Posted by Dr.P View Post
    2. "energetic loss" is something the brain doesn't like at all! while it may be true that DNP can have specific beneficial properties and be protective against oxidative stress, cognitive performance will definitely be negatively affected during the DNP cycle. "lethargy" is also a consequence of decreased energetic levels of the brain. So, if you need to have excellent focus and concentration (e.g. at work) than DNP is surely nothing one would like to take for fat loss.
    Not necessarily. At lower dosages, people (as well as the original researchers) have reported a sense of well being . Blood flow is improved. Again, I think you're trying to make something up where it doesn't exist. Not only is there no research on this, I haven't experienced or heard of anyone complaining of mental fog while on DNP. If anything is theoretical, this is theoretical. It sounds plausible, but I don't ever hear about it or experience it.
    Originally Posted by Dr.P View Post
    finally, let make a side note: while you have several times emphasized the potential protective effects of DNP against oxidative stress, I wonder how you come to the conclusion that "cataracts should not be an issue when you have astrong antioxidative system" (see one of your previous posts).
    Good question. I came to this conclusion based on research from 1951 that looked specifically at what causes DNP induced cataract. They found that a rare metabolite of a metabolite of DNP is responsible. This metabolite is a semiquinone. Most poeople have NADPH:semiquinone reductase and can neutralize these without problem. For example, acetaminophen is metabolized into a similar semiquinone. A few people (1/100 to 1/1000) either have overactive nitroreductases (that produce these rare metabolites) or insufficient NADPH:semiquinone reductase. In these people, cataracts develop.
    Originally Posted by Dr.P View Post
    All in all, I appreciate your contributions, Conciliator because you have brought some valid points that a worth to be discussed with regards to DNP and its actions in the body. I want to apologize if I may have possibly been a bit rude in an other thread some weeks ago. your posts have defintiely made me more educated on that topic than before.
    Likewise. Discussion benefits us all.
    Originally Posted by Dr.P View Post
    Nonetheless, while you might be correct in "theory", I still think that DNP is not only not safe in "real-life-applications" but could have negative impact on body composition during a prolonged time after a DNP cycle and also negatively affect brain function, which excludes its usage by all people who rely on perfect cognition, memory and focus (e.g. students, drivers, aviators, medical stuff,etc. - everything where slight errors can have deleterious consequences to oneself and to others).
    As I explained above, DNP does not have a negative impact on nitrogen balance. You're mistaken. And the claims about cognitive function are, ironically, just theoretical. You're just speculating when you say that the incidence rate of slight cognitive errors increases with DNP use.
    Originally Posted by Dr.P View Post
    fat loss should never be seen isolated but needs to be a part of "body-recomposition": increase / preserve lean mass while reduce fat mass. since DNP affects both fat AND muscle mass, it is NOT good for body recomposition.
    Incorrect. If DNP preserved LBM while reducing fat mass, then it would be good for body recomposition... and that's exactly what it does.

    -Conciliator
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    Not sure why you keep on defending something that has the potential to kill you. DNP is not a safe substance, even when used under extreme medical supervision.

    Another thing is there are alot of young kids in this forum, and this argument would be more suitable for the steroid section IMO, so no young kid will grab onto this crazy theory that DNP is safe in any way.

    You guys really need to follow a good diet and lift those weights instead of injesting a substance that is used to kill rats into your body.

    If you want to learn how to cut to low BF%, here is a good article written by a reputable bodybuilder designed to get bodybuilders into the single digit bodyfat.

    http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/layne36.htm

    Here are some of the side effects of DNP, and for some strange reason, the original poster fails to mention them

    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...?p=8165667SIDE EFFECTS:

    Heat- you will feel very hot while taking this. It is very similar to jogging a slow pace all day long, so be prepared to sweat a little. In some people a lot of sweat is not too uncommon. Body temperature will rise to about 101 degrees and sustain there. This is not too out of the ordinary. This increase in core body temperature causes a vasodilation effect throughout the body to help cool you off. However, evaporative cooling with the aid of vasodilation will not be effective when the surrounding environment does not allow for proper cooling. For example, being out in the summer sun when it‚?‚??„?s 90 degrees and high humidity can cause you to rapidly overheat to dangerous levels. Avoid hot environments at all costs. Stay indoors if you choose to use it in the summer and only go outside briefly when it‚?‚??„?s absolutely necessary. Dehydration can cause the body to not regulate temperature properly and rapidly overheat as well. Drink 1-3 gallons of water daily depending on DNP dose.

    Water retention- this is very closely associated with heat. When the vasodilation occurs due to the rise in body temperature, blood vessels expand, causing an increase in blood volume and subsequent water retention. Also, an increased blood volume leads to decreased pressure, which would lead the body to try to store more sodium and cause even more water retention. All the water retention will subside within a week after stopping the DNP dosage, but often sooner than that. Popular diuretics are not very effective against DNP induced water retention because these diuretics mainly focus on one aspect of diuresis and that is suppression of the anti diuretic hormone (ADH), but the cause of water retention from DNP is independent of ADH. While diuretics will get rid of some naturally stored water, it isn‚?‚??„?t getting rid of enough water that would make a competitor presentable on stage and would put the user in jeopardy of death or serious health complications due to potassium depletion.

    Lethargy- This is the biggest problem associated with DNP and is somewhat associated with the insomnia that I will cover later. As you have learned DNP depletes the body of ATP and without ATP you have no energy. It literally feels like you‚?‚??„?re jogging a marathon all day long without a break. Of course the extent of the lethargy will depend on the dose, but it is not uncommon for people to be almost bed ridden. Walking to the kitchen to get food will be a chore. Even eating the food can become very laborious. This will subside within 24-36 hours of stopping the doses.

    Insomnia- sleeping will be very difficult for some people, not because of the familiar central nervous stimulation experienced with ephedrine and caffeine supplementation, but because it gets so ****ed hot. Many people including myself find it very difficult to sleep when we‚?‚??„?re sweating in our beds. The best way to combat this is to sleep with 2 fans from both sides of the bed and the air conditioner cranked up. Obviously if you have a significant other that you sleep with then it would be wise to sleep in separate beds for parts of the cycle.

    Shortness of breath/ rapid breathing- this is common when the dose is at the upper limits. The breathing will seem like you‚?‚??„?re jogging even while you‚?‚??„?re sitting down and doing nothing. It will seem like you can never catch your breath. Doing anything active will make you even more out of breath and this can become dangerous. When breathing becomes irregular, you should avoid doing any aerobic or strenuous activities. This means no working out (not like you‚?‚??„?ll have any energy to do so anyway).

    Dehydration- a very serious side effect. If hydration levels are not adequate it can predispose the body to severe overheating and possibly death. Water needs to be replenished on the order of 1-3 gallons per day.

    Electrolyte depletion- this is caused by excessive water and salt loss through sweating. Drinking water will replace fluids, but not electrolytes. Best way to replenish salts is to drink v8 juice. This can lead to a host of other problems if not remedied including excessive lethargy, low blood pressure, poor cardiac function, nausea, diarrhea‚?‚?¶

    Nausea- This is a common side effect that afflicts roughly around 30% of the users. There could be several causes to this: dehydration, electrolyte imbalance, low blood pH, and other unknown (by me) mechanisms.

    Diarrhea- possibly due to electrolyte imbalance and undissolved DNP that passes onto the large intestine causing osmotic imbalances. If this becomes too problematic the only thing to do is just to decrease the dosage or stop completely.

    Headache- largely due to dehydration. In most people, forcing down a liter of fluids will alleviate the headaches.

    Dry/ sore throat- I don‚?‚??„?t know the cause of this one, but it is pretty common among users and seems to manifest itself the most during sleep and may contribute to the insomnia.

    Allergies/ dermatitis- this is relatively rare. I‚?‚??„?ve been in contact with nearly 500 people who have used DNP and I would estimate about 30-40 of them have experienced allergic reactions to DNP. The allergies manifest themselves first as phantom itches (itching without any rashes or redness) around the torso in some people. It will later develop into rashes and or hives around the body and possibly spread to the face, neck, lips, and scalp area in severe cases. Any over the counter or prescription allergy medication (anti histamine) will cure the allergies. Also if you‚?‚??„?re allergic to DNP it doesn‚?‚??„?t mean you can‚?‚??„?t use it in the future. Allergies to DNP seem to have a tolerance factor. It first gets worse, then better with successive cycles. So if you are allergic, stop immediately and start again 7-10 days later and repeat until you are no longer allergic to DNP anymore. Allergies are also dose and length dependent.

    Yellow vision- This is even more rare than allergies. I‚?‚??„?ve only known about 15 people who have experienced this out of all the people I have come in contact with who have used DNP in the past. It seems to be most apparent when you look at a white surface and yellow spots will appear on the white that you see. I‚?‚??„?m not sure what exactly causes this, but it doesn‚?‚??„?t seem to harm anything and goes away within 1-2 days of stopping the doses.
    Last edited by new2lifting; 02-19-2007 at 05:05 PM.
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    new2lifting, stop spamming DNP threads. Your posts have nothing to do with what we're talking about.

    I already responded to your ignorance: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...1#post20765321

    Either reply there or stop posting the same stupid DNP guide.
    Last edited by Conciliator; 02-19-2007 at 05:22 PM.
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    Originally Posted by Conciliator View Post
    new2lifting, stop spamming DNP threads. Your posts have nothing to do with what we're talking about.

    I already responded to your ignorance: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...1#post20765321

    Either reply there or stop posting the same stupid DNP guide.
    Here is DNP's tox faq's from the international chemical safety cards to you give an idea of what it is considered to be; Combustible. Gives off irritating or toxic fumes (or gases) in a fire. Risk of fire and explosion. DO NOT expose to friction or shock. MAY BE ABSORBED! Redness. Roughness. Yellow staining on the skin. PHYSICAL STATE; APPEARANCE: YELLOW CRYSTALS ROUTES OF EXPOSURE: The substance can be absorbed into the body by inhalation, through the skin and by ingestion. PHYSICAL DANGERS: Dust explosion possible if in powder or granular form, mixed with air. INHALATION RISK: Evaporation at 20?C is negligible; a harmful concentration of airborne particles can, however, be reached quickly. CHEMICAL DANGERS: May explosively decompose on shock, friction, or concussion. May explode on heating. Shock-sensitive compounds are formed with alkalis, ammonia and most metals. The substance decomposes on heating producing toxic gases including nitrogen oxides. EFFECT OF SHORT-TERM EXPOSURE: The substance may cause effects on metabolism, resulting in very high body temperature. Exposure may result in death. EFFECTS OF LONG TERM OR REPEATED EXPOSURE: Repeated or prolonged contact with skin may cause dermatitis. The substance may have effects on the peripheral nervous system. The substance may have effects on the eyes, resulting in cataracts. Boiling point: sublimes ?C, Melting point: 112?C, Relative density (water = 1): 1.68. Solubility in water, g/100 ml at 54.5?C: 0.14. Relative vapor density (air = 1): 6.36. This product is handled and shipped in a 15% solution of water, making it a paste, so that it will not explode due to shock or friction

    LOL
    and you think this stuff is safe
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    Originally Posted by new2lifting View Post
    EFFECT OF SHORT-TERM EXPOSURE: The substance may cause effects on metabolism, resulting in very high body temperature. Exposure may result in death.
    ...
    EFFECTS OF LONG TERM OR REPEATED EXPOSURE: Repeated or prolonged contact with skin may cause dermatitis. The substance may have effects on the peripheral nervous system. The substance may have effects on the eyes, resulting in cataracts.
    ...
    LOL
    and you think this stuff is safe
    Wow, that sure settles things. Go look at the MSDS on ephedrine. No one is saying that DNP doesn't have side effects and serious risks. These are often blown out of proportion, though, and get mixed with all sorts of gross misinformation. While we're having detailed academic discussions about these, you're blindly proclaiming the dangers of DNP, like a dogmatic crusader with an ironic ignorance of the substance you're condemning. Reminds me of the anti-steroid crusaders. Your zealousness isn't commendable, it's unfounded and unwarranted. You'd rather post the same rhetoric than have a candid discussion about the research and objective facts. If you really want to talk about how dangerous DNP is, you'll have to do better than regurgitating old amateur users' guides, just like an anti-steroid propagandist is going to have to do a lot better than regurgitate misinformed statements from the 70's.
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