BB row vs. Lat pulldown

[squatist_cm]

On my back day I do both BB row and a wide grip lat pulldown. I do BB row first before i do the lat pulldown. For my sets of lat pulldown i do 140lbs. but for my bb row i only do sets of 125lbs. I know this is probally not a big problem at all but i was wondering isn't it supposed to be the other way? Arn't you supposed to be able to do heavier Bb rows than lat pulldown. For the lat pulldown i make sure it isnt a arm dominiated exercise and focus lots on the contraption in my lats. For bb row i do the same thing except i notice my arms tend to give out just a bit more, and the one problem is my foearms or my grip really gives out. For bb rows i use an overhand grip that is quite narrow where my elbows are close to my body. As well i do more of a Yates row for my rows. It could be a form problem but i believe my form is quite good. Unfornenetly i dont have any videos to get any feedback for my form. This below is my workout of my back day.

Deadlifts
BB rows
Lat pulldown
Cable rows

[JOHN GARGANI]

Squat: a suggestion: when I work my back, I work from top to bottom....

the reason for this order, is that as you travel downwards the spine, there is a greater likelihood of injury or more of a need to warmup.....


if you reverse the order, by time you do deads, your entire back AND your body is quite warmed up lessening the chance of injury and deads can give you layoff type injuries........


so: you might try this order of your exercises:


1. lat pulldowns- upper lats/teres

2. cable rows- mid lats

3. bent over rows- as you described, for lower lats

and then,

4. Deads......

try it!

[MrSinister]

my pulldown has always dominate my bar row... id say its normal ... coleman rows like 450lbs and i wouldnt be surprised if he pulls down 700

[squatist_cm]

Thanx John im gonna have to try to work my back in that order and see how it works. It makes sense and sounds like a good order

[10TonBrick]

my pulldown has always dominate my bar row... id say its normal ... coleman rows like 450lbs and i wouldnt be surprised if he pulls down 700

i read that he only reps with 300 on lat pulldowns, then again i did read this in flex

[MrSinister]

i read that he only reps with 300 on lat pulldowns, then again i did read this in flex

haha, even i've done more than that.. id very conserveratively say he can at least do 2x what i can

[papi93]

haha, even i've done more than that.. id very conserveratively say he can at least do 2x what i can

Lat pulldown machines seem to very in how heavy the weight feels. 300lbs on one machine can feel heavier or lighter on another machine. You both would have to use the same machine to make a comparison. Not to mention, you would have to use the same technique.

[Defiant1]

Squat: a suggestion:

LOL!!...

John, when I first read that...

I thought you were telling him to squat for his lats......

I thought to myself NNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOooooooooooooooo!!!!!


Not John G....he's turned to the darkside!!

[nitrored]

LOL!!...

John, when I first read that...

I thought you were telling him to squat for his lats......

I thought to myself NNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOooooooooooooooo!!!!!


Not John G....he's turned to the darkside!!

LOL!!!

Squats & Milk!!!
*ROAR*

[Canadian Iron]

On my back day I do both BB row and a wide grip lat pulldown. I do BB row first before i do the lat pulldown. For my sets of lat pulldown i do 140lbs. but for my bb row i only do sets of 125lbs. I know this is probally not a big problem at all but i was wondering isn't it supposed to be the other way? Arn't you supposed to be able to do heavier Bb rows than lat pulldown. For the lat pulldown i make sure it isnt a arm dominiated exercise and focus lots on the contraption in my lats. For bb row i do the same thing except i notice my arms tend to give out just a bit more, and the one problem is my foearms or my grip really gives out. For bb rows i use an overhand grip that is quite narrow where my elbows are close to my body. As well i do more of a Yates row for my rows. It could be a form problem but i believe my form is quite good. Unfornenetly i dont have any videos to get any feedback for my form. This below is my workout of my back day.

Deadlifts
BB rows
Lat pulldown
Cable rows

lol I like to focus on the contraption in my lats as well

[ElderJefferson]

so: you might try this order of your exercises:


1. lat pulldowns- upper lats/teres

2. cable rows- mid lats

3. bent over rows- as you described, for lower lats

and then,

4. Deads......

try it!

Very interesting. I always do my heavy exercises first thing (Deads, Squats, Bench, etc), then hit the other stuff. I don't know if I would have enough energy in the tank to complete a good Dead workout if I save them for the end. I just do a lot of stretching to warm up the muscles.

[Febs]

haha, even i've done more than that.. id very conserveratively say he can at least do 2x what i can

You do realise that not every machine has the same leverage etc. It depends on how many pullys, their size, their position etc. so 70kg on one machine could feel like 100 on another

[Dominik]

so: you might try this order of your exercises:

1. lat pulldowns- upper lats/teres

2. cable rows- mid lats

3. bent over rows- as you described, for lower lats

and then,

4. Deads......

Not a fan of that approach John. You're doing the most physically and neurally demanding exercise, last, after 3 other back exercises. It's a power lift, you want to make solid progress on it, so why do it after you've hammered all your upper back muscles? Why not hit it when you're fresh and can generate more power? And if you're not going to treat it as a power lift then you'd probably be better off doing rack pulls instead.

I've never had any problems warming up for deads by starting with 135 no matter how light it feels, doing several warmup sets and slowly adding weight (i.e. a plate a side each set). If you're really paranoid about injuring your lower back on them you could always start with a few sets of hypers/back extensions.

I've gotten the best results by doing rows and chins on a different day to deads and doing deadlifts first in a workout. Just my 2 cents.

[braindx]

Gotta agree with Dom here.

I definitely warm up by doing a bit of jogging, some stretching and then like 1x8 for 135 lbs on DLs and then maybe another warmup after before going to the sets.

As for BB rows and lat pulldown... trash the lat pulldowns for pullups/chins and do both.

[ElderJefferson]

Not a fan of that approach John. You're doing the most physically and neurally demanding exercise, last, after 3 other back exercises. It's a power lift, you want to make solid progress on it, so why do it after you've hammered all your upper back muscles? Why not hit it when you're fresh and can generate more power? And if you're not going to treat it as a power lift then you'd probably be better off doing rack pulls instead.

I've never had any problems warming up for deads by starting with 135 no matter how light it feels, doing several warmup sets and slowly adding weight (i.e. a plate a side each set). If you're really paranoid about injuring your lower back on them you could always start with a few sets of hypers/back extensions.

I've gotten the best results by doing rows and chins on a different day to deads and doing deadlifts first in a workout. Just my 2 cents.

This whole post echoes my sentiments. I'm not opposed to trying something new, but I just don't see how putting deads at the end is beneficial.

[oldmanmarley]

I'd be very reluctant to do unsupported rows after deadlifts because I go hard on deadlifts and my lower back wouldn't be able to handle it. But I think a few warmup sets would be enough to ward off injury in most cases and deadlifts are an exercise for which I need a lot of energy, so I have to do them first. My solution: do deadlifts on leg day.

[Liquidtensi0n]

my pulldown has always dominate my bar row... id say its normal ... coleman rows like 450lbs and i wouldnt be surprised if he pulls down 700

Coleman doesn't row 450. He RDLs 450 with a little bit of arm action thrown in somewhere. What I'm trying to say here is, his form sucks.

[spirit3530]

Not a fan of that approach John. You're doing the most physically and neurally demanding exercise, last, after 3 other back exercises. It's a power lift, you want to make solid progress on it, so why do it after you've hammered all your upper back muscles? Why not hit it when you're fresh and can generate more power? And if you're not going to treat it as a power lift then you'd probably be better off doing rack pulls instead.

I've never had any problems warming up for deads by starting with 135 no matter how light it feels, doing several warmup sets and slowly adding weight (i.e. a plate a side each set). If you're really paranoid about injuring your lower back on them you could always start with a few sets of hypers/back extensions.

I've gotten the best results by doing rows and chins on a different day to deads and doing deadlifts first in a workout. Just my 2 cents.

Agreed











just for numbers

[JOHN GARGANI]

see Dom, I look at it from the opposite approach: from a bodybuilding point of view, I look at the other movements as more important in how they will impact what you actually look like, as compared to Deads......

I would rather give preference to that which flairs out my back in this case....

besides: some of the muscles used in assisting dead lifts are not used in the preceding Lat movements, so , I see it as a fresh approach EVEN though they are last! ( your legs, your knees, your hips, etc......your lower back and core muscles, etc)


the other movements are more lat, teres, rhomboid type muscle related, with little stress on the core or lower body......

I see DEADs as an accident waiting to happen, and has happened to far too many people......being totally warmed up can never hurt......

a slight pull from cable rows or pulldowns, might mean a little discomfort for a day or two, and you will be doing another workout next week...an injury in Deadlifts can translate into lengthy or sometimes even career ending layoffs.....

[Dominik]

see Dom, I look at it from the opposite approach: from a bodybuilding point of view, I look at the other movements as more important in how they will impact what you actually look like, as compared to Deads......

I would rather give preference to that which flairs out my back in this case....

besides: some of the muscles used in assisting dead lifts are not used in the preceding Lat movements, so , I see it as a fresh approach EVEN though they are last! ( your legs, your knees, your hips, etc......your lower back and core muscles, etc)


the other movements are more lat, teres, rhomboid type muscle related, with little stress on the core or lower body......

I see DEADs as an accident waiting to happen, and has happened to far too many people......being totally warmed up can never hurt......

a slight pull from cable rows or pulldowns, might mean a little discomfort for a day or two, and you will be doing another workout next week...an injury in Deadlifts can translate into lengthy or sometimes even career ending layoffs.....

John, then why do deadlifts at all if you think they're high risk and not worth giving priority in a routine?

It's not like you don't have options. For bodybuilding, rack pulls make more sense as a back exercise. Less complicated, you're not at risk of stiff-legging the weight off the floor, so it's inherently safer. RDLs, pull-throughs, and GHRs, are other options for the glutes and hams. You can also do hypers/back extensions to specifically target the lower back. Shrugs safely take care of the traps. Squats take care of the legs. So why deadlift then?

If anything, doing them last leaves you more vulnerable. You're tired, your concentration isn't as sharp, and you can't generate as much power off the floor which leaves you more vulnerable IMO.

[Tyrbolift]

John, then why do deadlifts at all if you think they're high risk and not worth giving priority in a routine?

It's not like you don't have options. For bodybuilding, rack pulls make more sense as a back exercise. Less complicated, you're not at risk of stiff-legging the weight off the floor, so it's inherently safer. RDLs, pull-throughs, and GHRs, are other options for the glutes and hams. You can also do hypers/back extensions to specifically target the lower back. Shrugs safely take care of the traps. Squats take care of the legs. So why deadlift then?

If anything, doing them last leaves you more vulnerable. You're tired, your concentration isn't as sharp, and you can't generate as much power off the floor which leaves you more vulnerable IMO.

Deads done later, as John suggests, would best be done in a bodybuilding context, not powerlifting...

which means somewhat higher reps at a lesser weight.

You should concentrate on ALL exercises, and if you are feeling weak or somehow physically or mentally disoriented, you shouldn't do ANY exercise which challenges that.

[Dominik]

Deads done later, as John suggests, would best be done in a bodybuilding context, not powerlifting...

which means somewhat higher reps at a lesser weight.

You should concentrate on ALL exercises, and if you are feeling weak or somehow physically or mentally disoriented, you shouldn't do ANY exercise which challenges that.

Makes no sense to me. Why put the most demanding exercise last? Would you put squats at the end of your leg workout?

More to the point, why do them if you're only after the bodybuilding benefits, especially if you think they're only fit to be done last? I listed some options (rack pulls, RDLs, hypers, pull-throughs, GHRs, shrugs, etc.), all of which will get the job done with less risk involved.

[Tyrbolift]

Makes no sense to me. Why put the most demanding exercise last? Would you put squats at the end of your leg workout?

More to the point, why do them if you're only after the bodybuilding benefits, especially if you think they're only fit to be done last? I listed some options (rack pulls, RDLs, hypers, pull-throughs, GHRs, shrugs, etc.), all of which will get the job done with less risk involved.

First of all, squats is not a good analogy because they are not as a complete workout, being much more quad dominant and not overall body used.

I can see deads being done last if you are weak in lats but strong in overall back thickness and leg strength. It is viable under certain conditions and goals.

[Dominik]

First of all, squats is not a good analogy because they are not as a complete workout, being much more quad dominant and not overall body used.

I can see deads being done last if you are weak in lats but strong in overall back thickness and leg strength. It is viable under certain conditions and goals.

Where the legs are concerned, and the lower back especially if you're squatting more like a powerlifter, squats blast most of the body.

Anyway, people are free to do what they like but doing deads last is a bad idea in my book. Why do them half-assed at the end? It's a power lift. Give it the respect it deserves. Put them up front. If you want to focus on rows and chins then do them on a separate day, scheduling deads for a lower day for example, or alternate them with heavy squats.

I mean seriously, what's the point of doing them with light weight when you're fatigued? They're not going to do **** for back thickness if you're not using a lot of weight and you won't make much progress on them if you're always compromising. Once again, as a bodybuilder you have options.