pull ups versus chin ups

[Defiant1]

Thanks for the link. Heres the table of the results from that article:http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/art...pe=table&id=T1

Correct me If im wrong, but the myoelectric activity show in the table for palms facing front vs reverse IS different, and is showing up as higher for the Lats in the palms facing forward and higher for the Biceps in the palms facing (Reverse). Why they conclude that it has no effect I dont understand, when the readings clearly show a difference?

EDIT: this is also for pulldowns. Pullups =! pulldowns. There will be a change in everything because of the leverage and angles involved.

They determined the results were not statistically significant. Which in science is everything.

1. The point is bicep recruitment.

2. You saying they will be different doesn't make it so. I am waiting for any evidence.

Pulldowns/Chins doesn't change the bicep position thing.

If one looks at EMG studies in general, a supinated grip does not offer superior bicep recruitment to a hammer type grip...which is what a wide, palms away grip offers.

Many people do not realize that a wide palms away grip and a narrow hammer grip are exactly the same in terms of hand/upper arm position

[ExtremistPullup]

both target your lats but hit your bicep differently

[mjw8204]

I started having the best success with pullups/chinups/whateverthef*ck when I stopped worrying about which style was the "best" and simply found the grip position *I* liked best and concentrated on getting better at them. Less time worrying about every little possibility, and more time getting stronger at pulling my body upward.

[W8isGR8]

Biceps

[Canadian Iron]

I started having the best success with pullups/chinups/whateverthef*ck when I stopped worrying about which style was the "best" and simply found the grip position *I* liked best and concentrated on getting better at them. Less time worrying about every little possibility, and more time getting stronger at pulling my body upward.

I think we can all agree on this one.

With that it's time to:
http://home.nc.rr.com/darkharvest/Wrap%20It%20Up.gif

[redsquarres]

*shakes head sadly*

Bull **** Defiant1 There is no way Bill weathers said so many 'I knows' !

[de_barathrum]

Yeah well at least I am not licking someone else's balls like you, bro

Did you get enough butt action with Defiant1 "Syintist trayning guy" an hour ago?

I'm sure he would enjoy that because he is in the "Navel Academy"... ahahha

Also, congratulations, you just commited a logical fallacy.

Argumentum ad hominem
Argumentum ad hominem literally means "argument directed at the man";

Way to go.

[nitrored]

x2...

[The Brotherhood]

They determined the results were not statistically significant. Which in science is everything.

1. The point is bicep recruitment.

I dont see where he asked only about bicep recruitment.And there are differences in the myE in the bicep recruitment as well

2. You saying they will be different doesn't make it so. I am waiting for any evidence.

Pulldowns/Chins doesn't change the bicep position thing.

I believe you are the one who needs to provide evidence that they arnt different. They are different excercises, and hence unless proved to be the same, would be considered different

If one looks at EMG studies in general, a supinated grip does not offer superior bicep recruitment to a hammer type grip...which is what a wide, palms away grip offers.

I believe the debate is between palms facing forward and palms facing face. Hammer grip is neither, it is a neautral grip, like hammer curls.

Many people do not realize that a wide palms away grip and a narrow hammer grip are exactly the same in terms of hand/upper arm position

The discussion as far as I know is about palms facing forward vs palms facing face. Hammer grip was not discussed anywhere.

[papi93]

They determined the results were not statistically significant. Which in science is everything.

1. The point is bicep recruitment.

2. You saying they will be different doesn't make it so. I am waiting for any evidence.

Pulldowns/Chins doesn't change the bicep position thing.

If one looks at EMG studies in general, a supinated grip does not offer superior bicep recruitment to a hammer type grip...which is what a wide, palms away grip offers.

Many people do not realize that a wide palms away grip and a narrow hammer grip are exactly the same in terms of hand/upper arm position

Weighted Hammers > Weighted Chins > Weighted Pullups : in regards to the resistance used.

How would you explain this? With curling movements its : hammer curls > biceps curls > reverse curls. The pattern very closely resembles the chin and pullup pattern.

Edit: Please don't think I'm attacking you with this post. I just would like your opinion on why the pattern is the same.

[The Brotherhood]

^^ i was about to post this. Thanks papi

I would like to see a video of someone who can reverse curl the same weight as he can curl with a regular grip. The weight is seriously reduced - what do you attribute this to then?

[Defiant1]

Weighted Hammers > Weighted Chins > Weighted Pullups : in regards to the resistance used.

How would you explain this? With curling movements its : hammer curls > biceps curls > reverse curls. The pattern very closely resembles the chin and pullup pattern.

Edit: Please don't think I'm attacking you with this post. I just would like your opinion on why the pattern is the same.

I don't have a problem with people questioning my posts and I don't take them as attacks unless they are attacks lol. Or, if they have information packaged as science that is not science.

Put your hand in a wide grip (palms away) chin. Now, move your elbows together without changing your hand position. Hammer grip chin, unless your wide grip wasn't very wide.

I don't agree with your assessment of how much weight people can use. I have found that most people can do more weight on a wide grip palms away chin. Less range of motion.

Remember, my point was about BICEP involvement, not lat involvment. I believe the lat involvement is DIFFERENT with different grips, not better or worse.

[de_barathrum]

i think the whole thing started from the misuse of the words chin up and pull up. as far as semantics go they are pretty much the same thing. there is nothing in chin or pull that can deferentiate grip.

[ElderJefferson]

Even if he doesn't care about all that and if it is totally irrelevent it's still a nice little article with a few nice little concepts in it.

True. The wide grip comment took me by surprise, as I almost exclusively do my pullups with a wide grip (not extreme, but several inches out from my shoulders).

[The Brotherhood]

Put your hand in a wide grip (palms away) chin. Now, move your elbows together without changing your hand position. Hammer grip chin, unless your wide grip wasn't very wide.

I dont get it. Your saying that palms facing forward narrow grip is a hammer grip? I believe a hammer grip is a neutral grip..like in hammer curls

I don't agree with your assessment of how much weight people can use. I have found that most people can do more weight on a wide grip palms away chin. Less range of motion.

I am also interested in reading the study that papi is citing, but I for one, and both the friends of mine that I train, find the hammer>palms facing in> palms facing forward for us.

[ThickAsABrick]

x2...

x3

[papi93]

I dont get it. Your saying that palms facing forward narrow grip is a hammer grip? I believe a hammer grip is a neutral grip..like in hammer curls

That confused me as well.

I am also interested in reading the study that papi is citing, but I for one, and both the friends of mine that I train, find the hammer>palms facing in> palms facing forward for us.

No study. I was just speaking from my experience in the gym.

From my experience with chest pressing:
decline > bench > incline (in regards to resistance used)
This seems to be more accepted by the lifting community.

Experience is greater than science, for the most part, IMO. Views on science change frequently. Squats are good for your knees, squats are bad for your knees, etc. The easiest way is to experiment and what works best for you.

[nitrored]

I dont get it. Your saying that palms facing forward narrow grip is a hammer grip? I believe a hammer grip is a neutral grip..like in hammer curls

The way it is worded is a little confusing... dont rotate your wrists at all(if you force your palms to face forward you defeating the experiment), and as you move your elbows together you find yourself moving into a hammer grip.

[Defiant1]

I dont get it. Your saying that palms facing forward narrow grip is a hammer grip? I believe a hammer grip is a neutral grip..like in hammer curls

No, I think you misunderstood or I was not clear.

I am saying that a wide palms away chin is the same grip as a hammer chin.

In a wide chin, your thumbs line up with your biceps....same as a hammer chin. In my example, I said move the elbows together while not CHANGING hand position, meaning keep them as they are.

[Defiant1]

No study. I was just speaking from my experience in the gym.

From my experience with chest pressing:
decline > bench > incline (in regards to resistance used)
This seems to be more accepted by the lifting community.

Experience is greater than science, for the most part, IMO. Views on science change frequently. Squats are good for your knees, squats are bad for your knees, etc. The easiest way is to experiment and what works best for you.

The decline press though makes sense, as you are pushing through the largest part of the pectorals mass, with a shorter range of motion, and it jibes with most peoples experience. But elbow position doesn't change.

[Defiant1]

I dont see where he asked only about bicep recruitment.And there are differences in the myE in the bicep recruitment as well

Part of my response was directed at a quote about "palms back recruits more biceps". The context is being lost in the quoting.

I believe you are the one who needs to provide evidence that they arnt different. They are different excercises, and hence unless proved to be the same, would be considered different

Not really. The whole point is that the nomenclature does not distinguish grip. I have (as I said) over 50 sources (conservative) about 10 feet from me that do not distinguish.

The idea that "pull up = this" and "chin up = that" is what violates the status quo...

Every old school bodybuilder that I know of refers to wide grip palms away as....wide grip chins.

I believe the debate is between palms facing forward and palms facing face. Hammer grip is neither, it is a neautral grip, like hammer curls.

Correct. But the idea has been placed on the table that hammer grip is stronger. But if the wide chin grip and hammer grip are the same....

[IRONMANN1]

Controversy at its finest

[DJAuto]

Pullups are much better in my opinion. But switch it up, or the other will feel weird. For example, I did pullups for so long and now when I do chinups it just doesn't feel right.

[ExtremistPullup]

Pullups are much better in my opinion. But switch it up, or the other will feel weird. For example, I did pullups for so long and now when I do chinups it just doesn't feel right.

same here; Now I find pull-ups easier then chins

[DiamondDelts]

I agree with D1. I believe the difference in chins and pullups is GREATLY exaggerated on this board. Though I will admit that I do feel each exercise slightly different. I find it hard to believe that a simple flip of the grip will drastically change the biceps involvement as much as some here would have us believe. People say they feel their bis work so much harder during chins well I could say the same thing in reference to my forearms involvement during pullups.

Either way chins or pullups are just good exercises to stretch the shoulder girdle and lats to me. But you need other exercises for lat thickness.

I don't do pullups nor deadlifts anymore. I only do wide grip chinups and lat shrugs and my back width is still one of my best features. Though I still feel that the neutral grip is the best grip for vertical rows anyway. Seems to be more in the lats natural line of pull.

[W8isGR8]

Right, and reverse-curls/hammer curls/bb curls all work the biceps the exact same..........

[DiamondDelts]

Right, and reverse-curls/hammer curls/bb curls all work the biceps the exact same..........

Nope. You don't have to go there w8. I understand what everyone is trying say. What I am saying though is that some people act like the biceps are almost "turned off" during pullups when I bet biomechanically their involvement is about the same as in chinups.

[W8isGR8]

Nope. You don't have to go there w8. I understand what everyone is trying say. What I am saying though is that some people act like the biceps are almost "turned off" during pullups when I bet biomechanically their involvement is about the same as in chinups.

Or the old "a thumbless grip takes out the biceptz"

But seriously, Defiant can wave that ghey study in my face all day, but you can't expect the same exact muscle involvement in two different exercises like that.

A reverse curl doesn't work the biceps the same as a regular curl. Why would a pronated pull-up work the biceps the same as a supinated pull-up.

[DiamondDelts]

Or the old "a thumbless grip takes out the biceptz"

But seriously, Defiant can wave that ghey study in my face all day, but you can't expect the same exact muscle involvement in two different exercises like that.

A reverse curl doesn't work the biceps the same as a regular curl. Why would a pronated pull-up work the biceps the same as a supinated pull-up.

Because Stone Cold said so?

[GoJu]

I agree with D1. I believe the difference in chins and pullups is GREATLY exaggerated on this board. Though I will admit that I do feel each exercise slightly different. I find it hard to believe that a simple flip of the grip will drastically change the biceps involvement as much as some here would have us believe. People say they feel their bis work so much harder during chins well I could say the same thing in reference to my forearms involvement during pullups.

Either way chins or pullups are just good exercises to stretch the shoulder girdle and lats to me. But you need other exercises for lat thickness.

I don't do pullups nor deadlifts anymore. I only do wide grip chinups and lat shrugs and my back width is still one of my best features. Though I still feel that the neutral grip is the best grip for vertical rows anyway. Seems to be more in the lats natural line of pull.

my biceps are worked hard during pullups too but it's just MORE so during chins that have the bicep in a more dominant position than in pullups, I don't care what Defiant or his 5000 books say, they're DIFFERENT exercises.

funny, I never got much out of nuetral (hammer) grip, I always felt my lats best doing chinups (fairly close grip) and bent-rows, but if I had to choose one it would be chins, used to feel lats alot in deadlifts but nowadays it's almost all lower back.