ok... so im confused about pull ups and chin ups. chin ups hit the biceps more right and pull ups hit the lats and middle back more and are harder than chins???
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Thread: pull ups versus chin ups
12-19-2006, 12:34 PM #1
pull ups versus chin upsBody Weight 11 stone
Dead Lift 190kg
Standing Military Press 70kg
12-19-2006, 12:35 PM #2
12-19-2006, 12:37 PM #3
Pull ups and Chin ups are the same thing, except for douche bags on the internet insist that some how "pull" and "chin" distinguish one from another....lol. In which version are you not pulling? And in which version does your chin not go up?
Ready? Here's the deal.
One doesn't work biceps more than the other...
Though people SAY palms up chins do.CSCS, ACSM cPT.
12-19-2006, 12:37 PM #4
Pullups = palms facing forward or hammer grip
Chin-ups - palms facing you.Miscer
12-19-2006, 12:38 PM #5
*shakes head sadly*CSCS, ACSM cPT.
12-19-2006, 12:40 PM #6
12-19-2006, 12:41 PM #7
Pullups: A Matter of Function
Take a look around the majority of gyms in America , and what will you see?
Guys bench pressing. Guys incline pressing. Guys working their chest and arms into a state of non-functional pump. Some of these characters can even bench press decent weights without the aid of support gear (although, if I were they, I wouldn't go bragging to any power lifters). In fact, bench presses above and beyond 300 pounds are almost common in the commercial gyms of today.
You know what I say to that? I say whoopadeedo. Who cares? What can these guys deadlift? What can they squat? What can they clean, or overhead press, or snatch with dumbbells or barbells or, God forbid, kettlebells? What can these guys lift in any of the numerous lifts that require true functional strength? Last but certainly not least, what can these guys pullup or chin?
The unfortunate answer to all of these questions is-diddley squat.
(Please understand that I mean no offense to powerlifters. A big bench press can be an impressive thing in CONJUNCTION with lifts that display all-around power, such as the deadlift or squat. One-trick ponies do not impress me, particularly when it comes to the bench press.)
Let's focus on what are possibly the simplest of the aforementioned lifts: pullups and chins. I have personally witnessed 300+ pound bench pressers failing to do a set of 5 measly pullups. For that matter, I know of one man who can incline press 400 pounds (400!), yet who, on being coaxed into a set of pullups, hit failure at three reps. Three reps! This is a pathetic state of affairs.
It wasn't always this way. Consider the following pullup and chinup performances of some of the strength game's true greats. John Grimek and Olympic lifting legend John Davis could both chin themselves six or seven times with EITHER ARM, at bodyweights of around 200 pounds. Eugene Sandow could perform a one-arm chin with ANY ONE OF HIS TEN FINGERS, at a bodyweight of around 190. Marvin Eder could perform 11 one-arm pullups at a bodyweight of no less than 195, and also do 80 (that's right, 80) consecutive two-arm pullups. For you smaller guys, consider the many gymnasts out there who can perform numerous one-arm pullups, or even more frightening, the rock climbers of today who can chin themselves with as much as 150% of bodyweight.... with ONE arm! And of course, for you really big guys, think about this: Bert Assarti, a strength legend from the early 1940's, could chin himself three times with either arm at a bodyweight of 265 pounds! Mr. Assarti could also do a two-arm pullup with over 200 pounds of additional weight strapped to his body. Keep in mind that all of these performances were done well before anabolic steroids reared their ugly heads.
Now that you have a little inspiration, let's talk about how to train for pullup and chinning strength.As with most lifts, there are numerous ways to train for pullup power, as long as one stays within a general set of rules.
Rule number one: in accordance with Pavel's logic, forget about training to failure. You can train close, within a rep or two, and occasionally (perhaps once or twice a month) push a set all out (read: A SET), but if you train to failure often, forget about achieving true pullup power, and start worrying about your frayed and shattered nerves.
Rule number two: Vary your grip . I know that Pavel believes in overhand pullups first and foremost, and I do too. However, if you are not a member of SWAT personnel, and do not have to climb walls and ledges on a regular basis, go ahead and vary your grip. Doing so will ward off boredom, and train your neural pathways to a wider degree. Grips worth using are: 1) Overhand or underhand, with or without thumbs. 2) Neutral grip--the best way to do these would be to drape a thick towel over the bar for maximum grip work.
Worthless techniques 1) Wide grip pullups and 2) Pullups behind the neck. For some reason, boobybuilders think that a very wide grip makes for very wide lats! Ha! This is bogus for a few reasons, the first being the greatly reduced range of motion, the second being the greatly reduced leverage, and the third being the extreme stress on your rotator cuffs. Optimal leverage is extremely important in strength training.
Question: would you try to pull a heavy deadlift on your toes with a rounded back? I didn't think so. As for pullups behind the neck, the same reasons apply. Do yourself and your shoulders a favor--keep your grip slightly wider than shoulder width or less, and pull to your chest, not to the back of your neck. And no grip aids please! (chalk is o.k.)
Rule number three: You can vary the number of reps you use, just don't do it excessively. Pick a training goal. If it is maximum muscular endurance, stick primarily to high reps. If it is maximum pullup power, stick with five reps or less ( I prefer lower reps and use high rep DBell or KBell quick lifts for muscular endurance. Just a matter of preference).
Every so often, do the exact opposite of your current routine. If you are training low reps go high one workout, and if you are doing high reps try for some heavy sets of 3-5. That being said, there seems to be a fair degree of carryover either way, so don't sweat it if you are in a situation where you can only train high reps.
There really aren't any "tricks" to training pullups. In my training, there are only two things I do that I suppose one could consider "tricks". The first, and I have been doing this for as long as I can remember, is to alternate sets of overhead presses with my pullups. Not superset, but alternate. Do a set of presses ( whether they be handstand pushups, barbell or dumbbell presses, or kettlebell presses). Rest about a minute, then do a set of pullups. Rest another minute and go back to presses, and so on and so forth. This method not only saves time, but also allows the antagonist muscle groups to relax as the other muscle groups are working.
The second "trick" is to go out and find something weird and hard to do pullups on, such as rafters, door frames, or a sturdy tree branch. I do this for the variety, but more for the experience, just in case I happen to be stuck somewhere where there are no training facilities and I am forced to improvise ( this HAS happened to me, and I'm sure it will happen to you).
One of the great things about pullups is that with a little imagination, you can do them just about anywhere.
Here is my current pullup and overall training schedule. It is performed 3-5 days per week. Remember that I stick to this for the most part, but occasionally change things up for the hell of it.
1. Presses ( Handstand pushups or Kbell, Bbell, or Dbell). alternated with chins or pullups for 4-8 sets of 3-5 reps.
2. One legged squats 3-5 sets stopping a rep before failure.
3. Kbell or Dbell work (snatches, one or two arm cleans or clean- and-jerks), 4-6 sets of 5-20 reps, sometimes doing drop sets (when I can stomach it).
4. Hanging leg raises, 3-4 sets (these should help with your pullups).
5. I occasionally do weighted dips for two sets of 5-6 reps.
That's it. Keep in mind that there are many ways to skin a cat. This one just happens to be the most effective for me. Now check out the John Allstadt Guide to Pullup Greatness below, and get cracking!
12-19-2006, 12:41 PM #8
12-19-2006, 12:45 PM #9
12-19-2006, 12:46 PM #10
Main Muscle Worked: Biceps
Other Muscles Worked: Forearms, Lats
Mechanics Type: Compound
Main Muscle Worked: Lats
Other Muscles Worked: Biceps, Middle Back
Mechanics Type: Compound
If you've ever tried chin-ups for one month, and pull-ups in another month, you will know the difference. Chins hit the biceps harder and more directly as 50-70% of the movement utilizes the biceps, it isn't until the last 30% where you start contracting your lats which really makes it a back exercise.
Pull-ups on the other hand, almost instantly requires the lats to pull you up. After about 10% of the movement, your laterals become predominant.
You don't even have to go to the gym to figure it out, just do go through the motions right now.
12-19-2006, 12:46 PM #11
why the war and peace novel answer canadian, the question was whats the difference between pull ups and chin ups the answer is nothing, so you posted all that about nothingif i was a spartan they would of fuked me off the cliff as a newborn!
i blame my parents for my ****ty genetics!!!!!!!
12-19-2006, 12:49 PM #12
12-19-2006, 12:53 PM #13
Sometimes there is more to the question than is immediately apparent.
If you read between the lines, you can see that he is wondering which exercise is more effective, and the pros and cons of each, as well as different ways to train them and what are the common misconceptions about the exercise.
Even if he doesn't care about all that and if it is totally irrelevent it's still a nice little article with a few nice little concepts in it.
12-19-2006, 12:56 PM #14
How "chinning" ones self, and "pulling" ones self distinguishes grip?
Why bodybuilders almost universally call "Wide Grip Chins" the act of pulling themselves up with a wide grip with a palms away grip?
Why the over 50 bodybuilding books I have do not make this distinction and in fact talk about them indistinguishably?
In regards to grip effect on bicep/lat involvement:
A fully supinated grip has no greater bicep effect than a "hammer" style grip which is what a Wide grip chin is (thumb in line with biceps).CSCS, ACSM cPT.
12-19-2006, 01:00 PM #15
12-19-2006, 01:01 PM #16
12-19-2006, 01:02 PM #17
That was obviously a typo.
My gosh, it looks like the people in the bb.com forums are infallible. lmao, yeah right.
12-19-2006, 01:04 PM #18
12-19-2006, 01:06 PM #19
Also, congratulations, you just commited a logical fallacy.
Argumentum ad hominem
Argumentum ad hominem literally means "argument directed at the man";
Way to go.
12-19-2006, 01:07 PM #20
12-19-2006, 01:08 PM #21
- Join Date: Jun 2005
- Location: Edmond, Oklahoma, United States
- Posts: 15,353
- Rep Power: 41968
I like pull-ups betterFollow me under ExtremistPullup on facebook, youtube, instagram, twitter & extremistpullup.com
Current Guinness World Records-
Most pull-ups in a minute with 100 lb pack: 14 reps October 15, 2014
Former Guinness World Record-
Heaviest Weighted Pull-up: 206.2 lbs July 9, 2011- October 13, 2016
22 Reps with 45 lbs
14 Reps with 100 lbs
8 Reps with 135 lbs
5 Reps with 160 lbs
1 rep with 211 lbs
Bench 365 lbs
Squat 405 lbs
Deadlift 505 lbs
Press 225 lbs
12-19-2006, 01:08 PM #22
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12-19-2006, 01:10 PM #25
12-19-2006, 01:10 PM #26
12-19-2006, 01:12 PM #27
12-19-2006, 01:13 PM #28
Correct me If im wrong, but the myoelectric activity show in the table for palms facing front vs reverse IS different, and is showing up as higher for the Lats in the palms facing forward and higher for the Biceps in the palms facing (Reverse). Why they conclude that it has no effect I dont understand, when the readings clearly show a difference?
EDIT: this is also for pulldowns. Pullups =! pulldowns. There will be a change in everything because of the leverage and angles involved.Miscer
12-19-2006, 01:13 PM #29
12-19-2006, 01:13 PM #30