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  1. #1
    Genetically Like This jehst's Avatar
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    Vegans have higher testosterone?

    What do you guys think of this study? I personally think is bull****.

    "The study measured testosterone levels in 696
    Oxford University men. Of the study participants,
    233 were vegan (ate no animal products) and 237
    were vegetarian (ate milk and dairy products).
    The remaining 237 subjects were men who ate meat
    on most days of the week...vegans had higher
    testosterone levels than vegetarians and meat
    eaters."

    British Journal of Cancer, 83(1), July 2000
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  2. #2
    Barefoot Runner Rune's Avatar
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    Talking For every study there is an equal and opposite study!

    "David Driscoll (Australia) conducted a brief review of the literature available through a website that provides information for people active in strength training and bodybuilding. This literature pushes the view that low meat/low saturated fat/high vegetable protein (e.g., soy) diets are associated with a marked reduction in testosterone (and, by implication, with reduced strength). Driscoll was not sure of the scientific quality of the information he found, and no-one on the list offered an assessment.
    A more authoritative source of information is the paper by Campbell et al. (1999), who conducted a 12-week study to compare the effects of a vegetarian diet with an omnivorous diet on changes in body composition and skeletal muscle size in older men (51-69 y) in response to resistance training. There were substantial benefits for omnivores, who lost 6% fat mass, gained 4% fat-free mass, and increased Type II fiber area by 9% relative to the vegetarians. A trend towards higher total protein intake (self-reported) in the omnivores might explain the effects, but higher concentration of the anabolic hormone testosterone is more likely. Campbell et al. did not measure testosterone, but Raben et al. (1992) found higher testosterone in young men consuming a high-protein, meat-containing diet compared with those consuming a high-protein, vegetarian diet. If testosterone is involved, a difference in total protein intake per se would not account entirely for Campbell et al.'s findings, because Volek et al. (1997) showed an inverse relationship between protein intake and testosterone concentration."


    Pretty much I think the same as you, complete crock of ****. Without the extra saturated fats from animal products I don't see how it's possible for vegans to have higher T levels.
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  3. #3
    El caballero de ocio puro supafly's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by jehst View Post
    What do you guys think of this study? I personally think is bull****.

    "The study measured testosterone levels in 696
    Oxford University men. Of the study participants,
    233 were vegan (ate no animal products) and 237
    were vegetarian (ate milk and dairy products).
    The remaining 237 subjects were men who ate meat
    on most days of the week...vegans had higher
    testosterone levels than vegetarians and meat
    eaters."

    British Journal of Cancer, 83(1), July 2000
    Have you heard of dioxins? They've been proven to lower testosterone, and are thought to be responsible for the general male population's lower sperm count. Food that comes from animal sources contains high levels of this, even fish. Plant foods and water contain very little. If vegetarians consume SOME animal foods, and if meat-eaters consume A LOT of animal foods, while vegans consume NONE, I think that's a pretty clear indicator that dioxins are responsible. I don't think it's bull****.

    Originally Posted by Rune View Post
    "David Driscoll (Australia) conducted a brief review of the literature available through a website that provides information for people active in strength training and bodybuilding. This literature pushes the view that low meat/low saturated fat/high vegetable protein (e.g., soy) diets are associated with a marked reduction in testosterone (and, by implication, with reduced strength). Driscoll was not sure of the scientific quality of the information he found, and no-one on the list offered an assessment.
    A more authoritative source of information is the paper by Campbell et al. (1999), who conducted a 12-week study to compare the effects of a vegetarian diet with an omnivorous diet on changes in body composition and skeletal muscle size in older men (51-69 y) in response to resistance training. There were substantial benefits for omnivores, who lost 6% fat mass, gained 4% fat-free mass, and increased Type II fiber area by 9% relative to the vegetarians. A trend towards higher total protein intake (self-reported) in the omnivores might explain the effects, but higher concentration of the anabolic hormone testosterone is more likely. Campbell et al. did not measure testosterone, but Raben et al. (1992) found higher testosterone in young men consuming a high-protein, meat-containing diet compared with those consuming a high-protein, vegetarian diet. If testosterone is involved, a difference in total protein intake per se would not account entirely for Campbell et al.'s findings, because Volek et al. (1997) showed an inverse relationship between protein intake and testosterone concentration."


    Pretty much I think the same as you, complete crock of ****. Without the extra saturated fats from animal products I don't see how it's possible for vegans to have higher T levels.
    No offense, but I don't think your post proves the OP's information wrong. How could you prove that vegans don't have higher testosterone levels when the studies you provided don't involve vegans at all, only vegetarians and meat-eaters. Vegans aren't exposed to testosterone-lowering dioxins AT ALL. However, the vegetarians could still be exposed to these testosterone-lowering dioxins from other animal products that don't come from meat (ex.milk, eggs). But they don't get quite as much testosterone-saturated fats as meat-eaters, so they have it the worst. Yeah, you're right in assuming that saturated fats play a role in testosterone production, but could it be that dioxins play an even bigger (but negative) role on testosterone?

    (enter suspense music) DUN, DUN, DUN...



    And by the way, I'm quite the meat-eater myself, so I don't like it either, but it seems true... vegans have a higher testosterone than us. At least we're not vegetarian :-)
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  4. #4
    Registered User shenanniguns's Avatar
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    Beef does raise testosterone levels especially with a little fat in it. Honestly though who cares if vegans have a higher level if it is true?
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  5. #5
    Not banned afterall MarkVI's Avatar
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    what if the body finds that it's not receiving outside sources of Testosterone and overproduces (or just produces more) Testosterone?>
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  7. #7
    El caballero de ocio puro supafly's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by shenanniguns View Post
    Beef does raise testosterone levels especially with a little fat in it. Honestly though who cares if vegans have a higher level if it is true?
    Well, what if vegans have NORMAL testosterone levels, and ours are in fact lower! Men's testosterone levels have been steadily decreasing for decades because of dioxins. Low testosterone leads to (among other things) low sex drive. I don't know about you, but I care about anything that'll make my penis go limp.
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  8. #8
    Registered User baarat's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by jehst View Post
    What do you guys think of this study? I personally think is bull****.

    "The study measured testosterone levels in 696
    Oxford University men. Of the study participants,
    233 were vegan (ate no animal products) and 237
    were vegetarian (ate milk and dairy products).
    The remaining 237 subjects were men who ate meat
    on most days of the week...vegans had higher
    testosterone levels than vegetarians and meat
    eaters."

    British Journal of Cancer, 83(1), July 2000
    So, if we consumed vegans would that increase our T levels? j/k
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  9. #9
    El caballero de ocio puro supafly's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by MarkVI View Post
    what if the body finds that it's not receiving outside sources of Testosterone and overproduces (or just produces more) Testosterone?>
    I don't know about that. First of all, I don't think our bodies get testosterone directly from the food we eat. Our body makes it from the saturated fat we consume. Look at vegetarians. They have lower testosterone than us meat-eaters, but that could be because they consume a lot less saturated fat, but still suffer from the negative effects of the dioxins in the animal products they DO consume. I think it's mostly a matter of avoiding dioxins (vegans). Apparently if you don't avoid them, your test levels are screwed (meat-eaters). If you don't avoid them and you don't get enough saturated fat in your diet... you're test levels are REALLY screwed (vegeterians).
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  10. #10
    No cardio No cry RU4A69's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by jehst View Post
    What do you guys think of this study? I personally think is bull****.

    "The study measured testosterone levels in 696
    Oxford University men. Of the study participants,
    233 were vegan (ate no animal products) and 237
    were vegetarian (ate milk and dairy products).
    The remaining 237 subjects were men who ate meat
    on most days of the week...vegans had higher
    testosterone levels than vegetarians and meat
    eaters."

    British Journal of Cancer, 83(1), July 2000


    What raises the test? The complete absence of vitamin B12 and zinc?

    Does carrying very little muscle mass somehow raise test?

    I can't figure this one out.
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  11. #11
    @___@ grapemaster's Avatar
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    hmmm drjoe and some otherse are pretty jacked and vegan...maybe have higher test flowing around.
    @__@
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  12. #12
    El caballero de ocio puro supafly's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by RU4A69 View Post
    What raises the test? The complete absence of vitamin B12 and zinc?

    Does carrying very little muscle mass somehow raise test?

    I can't figure this one out.
    Well like I said before (guess you didn't read my post), its very likely that vegans don't have raised testosterone; rather, ours has been lowered. Ours testosterone would probably be higher if we lived in a perfect world where the fat in our meats wasn't contaminated by testosterone lowering substances.
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  13. #13
    Yep, vegetarian. MrSinister's Avatar
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  14. #14
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    This is interesting:


    Effect of protein source and resistance training on body composition and sex hormones.

    The current randomized and blinded intervention study in healthy men demonstrated that protein, irrespective of source (soya protein isolate, soya concentrate, soya-whey mix, whey blend), coupled with resistance training results in a significant enhancement of lean body mass. There was no significant decrease in serum androgenic hormones following supplementation with any protein intervention. The biological significance of the sex hormone changes within the current study resulting from lower estradiol, and increased testosterone/estradiol ratio in response to soy and whey supplementation is unknown at this time. The isoflavone content may affect the magnitude of hormonal change as may the duration of dietary exposure to supplemental isoflavones.

    In conclusion, it appears that both soy and whey supplementation in free living resistance training men results in lean body mass accretion without negatively affecting serum androgen levels.

    http://www.jissn.com/content/4/1/4
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    Also, have a look at the bloke in the bottom left picture on this site. He is said to be the British Natural Heavyweight bodybuilding champion.

    http://www.spotthevegan.co.uk/

    And, as Grapemaster said, Joe DeMarco is brawny.
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  16. #16
    Yep, vegetarian. MrSinister's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by MartinVegartin View Post
    Also, have a look at the bloke in the bottom left picture on this site. He is said to be the British Natural Heavyweight bodybuilding champion.

    http://www.spotthevegan.co.uk/

    And, as Grapemaster said, Joe DeMarco is brawny.
    they're only natural when they compete
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    Originally Posted by jehst View Post
    "...vegans had higher
    testosterone levels than vegetarians and meat
    eaters."

    British Journal of Cancer, 83(1), July 2000
    On what planet?
    They say abs are made in the kitchen, but I don't know if that's true. I'm always in the kitchen and I ain't seen no abs yet.
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    Originally Posted by baarat View Post
    So, if we consumed vegans would that increase our T levels? j/k
    Nah, just a big bowl of Grape Nuts.
    They say abs are made in the kitchen, but I don't know if that's true. I'm always in the kitchen and I ain't seen no abs yet.
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    Originally Posted by jehst View Post
    What do you guys think of this study? I personally think is bull****.

    "The study measured testosterone levels in 696
    Oxford University men. Of the study participants,
    233 were vegan (ate no animal products) and 237
    were vegetarian (ate milk and dairy products).
    The remaining 237 subjects were men who ate meat
    on most days of the week...vegans had higher
    testosterone levels than vegetarians and meat
    eaters."

    British Journal of Cancer, 83(1), July 2000
    What are the specific circumstances...

    Average age?
    Weight (being overweight reduces test levels)?
    How long were the vegans for? (If they were vegans for half a year its b.s.)
    Lifestyle? (There are many factors that increase serum cholesterol)
    How high is high testosterone?
    What do their diets look like (lean meats with next to no sat. fat anyone)?

    I hate summaries of health articles because there are so many factors that can be taken into consideration, and the experiment can be skewed one way or another because of these outside factors.

    Just my 2 cents... this article is on the by and large b.s. without this extra info.
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    El caballero de ocio puro supafly's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by GermanBarbarian View Post
    What are the specific circumstances...

    Average age?
    Weight (being overweight reduces test levels)?
    How long were the vegans for? (If they were vegans for half a year its b.s.)
    Lifestyle? (There are many factors that increase serum cholesterol)
    How high is high testosterone?
    What do their diets look like (lean meats with next to no sat. fat anyone)?

    I hate summaries of health articles because there are so many factors that can be taken into consideration, and the experiment can be skewed one way or another because of these outside factors.

    Just my 2 cents... this article is on the by and large b.s. without this extra info.
    Point well taken, but if you google "dioxins" and "testosterone", you'll find more studies that kind of suggest what the OP's article is claiming. I'll see if I could find some of the ones I've read.

    Edit: Found one

    http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...1116081851.htm

    and this next one elaborates more on the same study

    http://www.ourstolenfuture.org/NewSc...visonetal.html
    Last edited by puro supafly; 11-28-2007 at 09:06 PM.
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    Originally Posted by MrSinister View Post
    Why the long face... oh
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    you mean more like higher estrogen
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    Originally Posted by puro supafly View Post
    Point well taken, but if you google "dioxins" and "testosterone", you'll find more studies that kind of suggest what the OP's article is claiming. I'll see if I could find some of the ones I've read.

    Edit: Found one

    http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...1116081851.htm

    and this next one elaborates more on the same study

    http://www.ourstolenfuture.org/NewSc...visonetal.html
    I agree somewhat with the whole dioxins issue, but we can both agree that something in the diet chang in conditions that caused this. Speaking of which have you read the articles about some frogs are bordering extinction because they change sex because of pesticides and outside factors (dioxins+etc...).

    I still mantain my view although dioxins may play a role of this problem.
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    Originally Posted by GermanBarbarian View Post
    I agree somewhat with the whole dioxins issue, but we can both agree that something in the diet chang in conditions that caused this
    True, the participants' diet choices are what caused the change, but dioxins MUST play a huge role in that. It just doesn't make sense otherwise. How could VEGANS of all people, have higher testosterone than anyone else? I'm maintaining my position, but to each his own I guess. I haven't found that much research on it though. There aren't too many long term testosterone studies out there. Everything is "this may lower it", "this may raise it". We probably won't find out much until it's too late. Sucks doesn't it lol. And like you said, the info always comes from some overly-summarized article.


    Yeah, I've heard about the frogs before. Scary stuff man.
    Last edited by puro supafly; 11-29-2007 at 10:56 AM.
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    id be pissed all the time if i was wasent gettin any too
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    Originally Posted by jehst View Post
    What do you guys think of this study? I personally think is bull****.

    "The study measured testosterone levels in 696
    Oxford University men. Of the study participants,
    233 were vegan (ate no animal products) and 237
    were vegetarian (ate milk and dairy products).
    The remaining 237 subjects were men who ate meat
    on most days of the week...vegans had higher
    testosterone levels than vegetarians and meat
    eaters."

    British Journal of Cancer, 83(1), July 2000
    I can attest to a noticed increase in aggression after a couple weeks of a vegan diet. I know it's not hella scientific, but in my understanding aggression is often associated with testosterone.
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    Originally Posted by luckydragonherb View Post
    I can attest to a noticed increase in aggression after a couple weeks of a vegan diet. I know it's not hella scientific, but in my understanding aggression is often associated with testosterone.
    the average vegan lifter will not outlift the average non-vegan lifter.

    someone took that study out of context because that is not what the conclusion stated.
    Men aged 70 years or older had 12% lower testosterone and 40% lower free-testosterone (FT) and androstanediol glucuronide (A-diol-g) concentrations than men who were 20-29 years of age. Conversely, sex hormone-binding globulin (SHBG) and luteinizing hormone (LH) concentrations were 90% and 49% higher in the oldest age group compared with the lowest, respectively. Men who had a body mass index (BMI) of 30+ kg/m2 had 30% lower testosterone, 45% lower SHBG, 22% lower LH and 5% lower FT concentrations compared with men with a BMI of <20 kg/m2. Conversely, A-diol-g concentration was 15% higher in the highest BMI category compared with the lowest. A high waist circumference was further associated with a 12% lower testosterone and SHBG concentration, after adjusting for BMI. Compared with never-smokers, smoking 10+ cigarettes/day was associated with 15% higher testosterone, 22% higher SHBG and 17% higher LH concentrations; FT and A-diol-g were not associated with smoking. Compared with no exercise, vigorous exercise of 3+ hours/week was associated with 11% higher testosterone and 16% higher SHBG concentrations, whilst LH, FT, and A-diol-g were not associated with vigorous exercise. Dietary factors were not strongly associated with hormones, although saturated fat intake was negatively associated with SHBG (r = -0.10; p = 0.01) and alcohol intake was positively associated with A-diol-g (r = 0.11; p = 0.004). No dietary factors were associated with testosterone, FT, or LH.
    CONCLUSIONS:
    Age is the strongest determinant of serum bioavailable androgens. BMI and some lifestyle and dietary factors influence SHBG and testosterone concentrations, but have no strong association with FT, suggesting that homeostasis is effective. A-diol-g shows broadly similar associations to FT, with the exception of the effect of BMI and alcohol..
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12074505


    whoever wrote that study is a ****ing retard
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    highly doubt it, unless they were juicing
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    Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarghhhhhhhhhhh 5 year old thread.




    Originally Posted by luckydragonherb View Post
    I can attest to a noticed increase in aggression after a couple weeks of a vegan diet. I know it's not hella scientific, but in my understanding aggression is often associated with testosterone.

    I'd be more aggressive too if I couldn't eat meat like a rational person.
    Ain't choppin' no pies, just risin' like cream.
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    Originally Posted by necon76 View Post
    Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarghhhhhhhhhhh 5 year old thread.







    I'd be more aggressive too if I couldn't eat meat like a rational person.
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