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  1. #1
    Banned hammerpress's Avatar
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    how exactly does running make you lean?

    i mean is it JUST because you're burning more calories than your eating, or is there something else inside the body that triggers fat loss like a mechanism that turns on? i'm kind of confused/...
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  2. #2
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    It gets your metabolism going much faster than normal which in turn equals a much greater expenditure of calories for the duration and a little while after the fact.
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  3. #3
    HERE WE GO STEELERS!!!!!! kethnaab's Avatar
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    actually, that is a relative misconception. Unless you are running FAST, it really won't do much for your metabolism once your heart rate slows to normal

    running triggers bodyweight loss because of the natural adaptive mechanisms involved with the execise.

    If you run, your body needs to improve your cardiovascular abilities, blood-oxygen transfer, etc, but it also needs to adapt by making you lighter, because it's EASIER to run when you are light than when you are heavy.

    Now, follow me here...exercise, in order to induce some type of conditioning affect, needs to disrupt the homeostatic mechanisms of the body. Your body responds in the most efficient manner possible so that the same exercise, in the future, will NOT disrupt said homeostasis. Running is less likely to disrupt homeostasis when you are lighter, all other things being equal, so your body will try to get rid of bodyweight in the most efficient manner possible, so that the next time you do the same exercise, it will be less disruptive.

    running definitely burns bodyfat via fat mobilization, but it is also a notorious burner of muscle. There is a reason marathoners look like marathoners, and sprinters look like sprinters, and its not just genetics
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  4. #4
    Layer Cake ThickAsABrick's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by kethnaab View Post
    actually, that is a relative misconception. Unless you are running FAST, it really won't do much for your metabolism once your heart rate slows to normal

    running triggers bodyweight loss because of the natural adaptive mechanisms involved with the execise.

    If you run, your body needs to improve your cardiovascular abilities, blood-oxygen transfer, etc, but it also needs to adapt by making you lighter, because it's EASIER to run when you are light than when you are heavy.

    Now, follow me here...exercise, in order to induce some type of conditioning affect, needs to disrupt the homeostatic mechanisms of the body. Your body responds in the most efficient manner possible so that the same exercise, in the future, will NOT disrupt said homeostasis. Running is less likely to disrupt homeostasis when you are lighter, all other things being equal, so your body will try to get rid of bodyweight in the most efficient manner possible, so that the next time you do the same exercise, it will be less disruptive.

    running definitely burns bodyfat via fat mobilization, but it is also a notorious burner of muscle. There is a reason marathoners look like marathoners, and sprinters look like sprinters, and its not just genetics
    Interesting stuff Keth.
    If you were running to lose bf, what distance/speed/routine/etc have you found is the most effective?
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  5. #5
    ♦ ɴɣϲ ϲrew ♦ Phenom01's Avatar
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    Actually if you limit the amount of time and keep your diet on check you can preserve all your muscle. Pro bodybuilders suggested to do slow cardio since you burn fat while you doing it.
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  6. #6
    Registered User AnaerobicAndrew's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by kethnaab View Post
    actually, that is a relative misconception. Unless you are running FAST, it really won't do much for your metabolism once your heart rate slows to normal

    running triggers bodyweight loss because of the natural adaptive mechanisms involved with the execise.

    If you run, your body needs to improve your cardiovascular abilities, blood-oxygen transfer, etc, but it also needs to adapt by making you lighter, because it's EASIER to run when you are light than when you are heavy.

    Now, follow me here...exercise, in order to induce some type of conditioning affect, needs to disrupt the homeostatic mechanisms of the body. Your body responds in the most efficient manner possible so that the same exercise, in the future, will NOT disrupt said homeostasis. Running is less likely to disrupt homeostasis when you are lighter, all other things being equal, so your body will try to get rid of bodyweight in the most efficient manner possible, so that the next time you do the same exercise, it will be less disruptive.

    running definitely burns bodyfat via fat mobilization, but it is also a notorious burner of muscle. There is a reason marathoners look like marathoners, and sprinters look like sprinters, and its not just genetics
    I'd like to see the science behind your claims. I'm not sure I buy into that, but very interesting stuff nonetheless. Can you go a bit deeper on this for my sake?

    And actually, marathon runners and sprinters do look like they do more so because of genetics than anything else. Muscle fiber/body frame types dictate their general "look" more than their training. Those marathoners were skinny sans any training and those sprinters were bulkier before they ever even thought about throwing on some spikes.
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  7. #7
    Expert W8isGR8's Avatar
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    Wink

    Originally Posted by Phenom01 View Post
    Actually if you limit the amount of time and keep your diet on check you can preserve all your muscle. Pro bodybuilders suggested to do slow cardio since you burn fat while you doing it.
    Pro bodybuilders use clen/DNP/IGF-1/HGH/AAS too...........
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  8. #8
    Expert W8isGR8's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by crazygerman View Post
    I'd like to see the science behind your claims. I'm not sure I buy into that, but very interesting stuff nonetheless. Can you go a bit deeper on this for my sake?

    And actually, marathon runners and sprinters do look like they do more so because of genetics than anything else. Muscle fiber/body frame types dictate their general "look" more than their training. Those marathoners were skinny sans any training and those sprinters were bulkier before they ever even thought about throwing on some spikes.
    meh

    Your training dictates fiber type. While it's true the very best were naturally born that way, it's not true for the whole. There is no such thing as a jacked endurance athelete......period. And while marathon vs. sprinters have similar bodyfat, the difference in muscle mass is staggering.

    The first and most obvious reason is fiber type training. Sprinters supplement with weight training, and sprinting itself requires fast twitch muscle fibers.

    What keth said is correct(as usual). The body always takes the easy way out, which means dropping "dead weight". With endurance atheletes, this means fat, as well as "useless" muscle like the type II fibers. The sprinters drop weight too, but because of the reliance on type II fibers, the large muscle is spared, so bodyfat is dropped.

    On top of that, endurance is catabolic in nature, where as high intensity is anabolic. Another nail in the coffin for low intensity.
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  9. #9
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    Originally Posted by W8isGR8 View Post
    meh

    Your training dictates fiber type. While it's true the very best were naturally born that way, it's not true for the whole. There is no such thing as a jacked endurance athelete......period. And while marathon vs. sprinters have similar bodyfat, the difference in muscle mass is staggering.

    The first and most obvious reason is fiber type training. Sprinters supplement with weight training, and sprinting itself requires fast twitch muscle fibers.

    What keth said is correct(as usual). The body always takes the easy way out, which means dropping "dead weight". With endurance atheletes, this means fat, as well as "useless" muscle like the type II fibers. The sprinters drop weight too, but because of the reliance on type II fibers, the large muscle is spared, so bodyfat is dropped.

    On top of that, endurance is catabolic in nature, where as high intensity is anabolic. Another nail in the coffin for low intensity.
    Wouldn't applying this same logic (your body adapting by dropping weight) to low impact cardio (elliptical, bike, etc), mean that there wouldn't be a need (or at least as much of one) to shed bw?
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  10. #10
    Expert W8isGR8's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by ThickAsABrick View Post
    Wouldn't applying this same logic (your body adapting by dropping weight) to low impact cardio (elliptical, bike, etc), mean that there wouldn't be a need (or at least as much of one) to shed bw?
    You're still moving your body. It takes less energy to move a smaller body than a larger one.
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  11. #11
    Registered User Briggsy's Avatar
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    man thats a decent question lol.

    i would think that the body will adapt to be best suited to the main strain placed on it. if you lifted weight mainly and ran a little your body would adapt itself to being strengh based with some endurance. IF you ran all the time and lifted for a short time once every so often you would recive some musclular mass but in the main the body would be geared for enduranced based exercise.

    as for muscle mass on elipticals, if you made them the staple of all your exercise the i would assume your body would adapt to thia by removing any mass that was not assisting in the taskat hand.

    eliptical training places less strain on the cardiovascular system than running, so by the reasoning that the body adapts to the strain its placed under you should lose mass slower but also improve your cardiovascular fitness and endurance at a slower rate.
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    ♦ ɴɣϲ ϲrew ♦ Phenom01's Avatar
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    W8isGr8 how do you get those details on your back? Is it genetics?
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  13. #13
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    Talking

    Originally Posted by Phenom01 View Post
    W8isGr8 how do you get those details on your back? Is it genetics?
    Photoshop + the lighting.
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  14. #14
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    Thumbs up

    Originally Posted by ThickAsABrick View Post
    Photoshop + the lighting.
    +site injection
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  15. #15
    Expert W8isGR8's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Phenom01 View Post
    W8isGr8 how do you get those details on your back? Is it genetics?
    lol, that's funny


    But seriously, rack pulls and rows with my elbows flared seemed to do the most for me.

    before rack pulls
    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/photo/...umbs/back5.jpg

    after rack pulls
    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/photo/...00/rearnew.jpg

    Last edited by W8isGR8; 11-29-2006 at 11:12 AM.
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  16. #16
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    personally i think the muscle mass loss from running is really exaggerated-at least, for the purpose of weekly cardio sessions.

    yeah, endurance athletes are skinny, but they run marathons. most of us are talking about running for 45minutes-1 hour, so no more than like 5-6 miles tops, and that's only a couple times a week. these skinny marathon runners are doing more running in one day than your average recreational lifter will be doing in a week.

    from experience, as someone who retains fat and muscle mass well, running 3 times a week for 45 minutes has not impacted my gains negatively at all, and running seems to be the only form of cardio that gives any appreciable results.
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    Originally Posted by Rachel_n_SD View Post
    personally i think the muscle mass loss from running is really exaggerated-at least, for the purpose of weekly cardio sessions.

    yeah, endurance athletes are skinny, but they run marathons. most of us are talking about running for 45minutes-1 hour, so no more than like 5-6 miles tops, and that's only a couple times a week. these skinny marathon runners are doing more running in one day than your average recreational lifter will be doing in a week.

    from experience, as someone who retains fat and muscle mass well, running 3 times a week for 45 minutes has not impacted my gains negatively at all, and running seems to be the only form of cardio that gives any appreciable results.

    It really comes down to your metabolism, and your diet of course if you already get rid of lots of calories from doing nothing then running is not a good idea to gain or retain muscle mass on your current diet, but if thats not the case, it will probably benefit you in most areas for heart health and some fat lose.

    And your right in the respect of the time we use instead, marathon runners will run for hours on end straight at a low intensity, while the gym goers will use maybe 45 mins to an hour with medium to low intensity.

    Then sprinters are just all out, well.....sprinters! They run as fast as they can for short durations which for most won't really take away muscle but maintain it and could even add some small amount in some areas.

    Since they are being slightly ripped and stretched by the resistance of the high speeds of flailing your limbs around, i think that sprinting is a great overall body workout which shouldn't diminish gains really at all for the average person. But the fat lose aspect isn't as good compared to medium intensity id say because of the fact that you will more than likely do less of it, but im sure its good cardio wise as in heart health.
    Last edited by KopyKat; 11-29-2006 at 11:39 AM.
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    Originally Posted by W8isGR8 View Post
    On top of that, endurance is catabolic in nature, where as high intensity is anabolic. Another nail in the coffin for low intensity.
    This sums up my post pretty good, i should of just quoted this lol
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    Originally Posted by KopyKat View Post
    And your right in the respect of the time we use instead, marathon runners will run for hours on end straight at a low intensity, while the gym goers will use maybe 45 mins to an hour with medium to low intensity.

    .
    this is mostly what i'm saying, is just that what most of us consider "running" is really a 45 minute, medium-high intensity jogging session, i don't consider that to be "endurance" cardio, and it is hard as f*ck so it definitely isn't low intensity either.
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    Originally Posted by KopyKat View Post
    It really comes down to your metabolism, and your diet of course if you already get rid of lots of calories from doing nothing then running is not a good idea to gain or retain muscle mass on your current diet, but if thats not the case, it will probably benefit you in most areas for heart health and some fat lose.

    And your right in the respect of the time we use instead, marathon runners will run for hours on end straight at a low intensity, while the gym goers will use maybe 45 mins to an hour with medium to low intensity.

    Then sprinters are just all out, well.....sprinters! They run as fast as they can for short durations which for most won't really take away muscle but maintain it and could even add some small amount in some areas.

    Since they are being slightly ripped and stretched by the resistance of the high speeds of flailing your limbs around, i think that sprinting is a great overall body workout which shouldn't diminish gains really at all for the average person. But the fat lose aspect isn't as good compared to medium intensity id say because of the fact that you will more than likely do less of it, but im sure its good cardio wise as in heart health.
    You gain muscle easy though so your body resists it better than an ecto type. As soon as I put on my running shoes I start losing weight.
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    Originally Posted by spirit3530 View Post
    You gain muscle easy though so your body resists it better than an ecto type. As soon as I put on my running shoes I start losing weight.
    understandable.

    keep in mind my experience with running is coming from a meso-endo bodytype, so i find it very easy to retain muscle, and hard to lose fat.

    i wouldn't advise running for ectos.
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    Originally Posted by spirit3530 View Post
    You gain muscle easy though so your body resists it better than an ecto type. As soon as I put on my running shoes I start losing weight.
    Your right, i kinda have a medium metabolism which means i don't lose muscle almost at all. I haven't worked out seriously in almost a year now and none of my lifts went down or did i see any muscle lose, just fat gain from eating a pure junk diet for a long period of time but even that took some time to do, i literally forced my metabolism to slow down because of it LOL.

    Im finally just now this week starting to cut out the junk food and eat alot more sensibly. My cardio is pretty crappy compared to last year when i was able to jog for a good 5 kms or so. I can forget about that for right now lol.

    And to add to your little example, as soon as i put my running shoes on, im already tired :P Not literally but you get my drift, but when it comes to gaining muscle or maintaining it, thats pretty easy for me, especially now it seems. I literally saw some slight gains in my lagging areas within not even 2 months of lifting recently and only lifting once a week for that duration with medium effort. Now i gotta get outta the lazy zone and into the lifting zone, and if you would of asked me about this a year ago, i woulda said it is impossible for me to get this lazy, but it happened after an 8 month injury .

    Oh well soon ill be going serious again.
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    Originally Posted by ThickAsABrick View Post
    Wouldn't applying this same logic (your body adapting by dropping weight) to low impact cardio (elliptical, bike, etc), mean that there wouldn't be a need (or at least as much of one) to shed bw?
    if cardio is done at a low enough intensity, it doesn't require much in the way of adaptation. If homeostasis in the body is not disrupted, because the session was easy enough or short enough, then there will be NO adaptation/stress response because the body has NO REASON to adapt and nothing to adapt to. You basically just burn the calories you burn. For chubbies who have a tendency toward insulin resistance, this is INCREDIBLY useful, however, because it helps regulate insulin response to CHO intake.

    In other words, chubby dudes who do light cardio frequently get better at processing the CHO they take in, even if their metabolism, per se, doesn't speed up.

    Originally Posted by Rachel_n_SD View Post
    personally i think the muscle mass loss from running is really exaggerated-at least, for the purpose of weekly cardio sessions.
    Well, keep something in mind. Let's compare a 135-lb female running a pair of 9-minute miles (which would garner an 86/100 in the PT test for my age) to a 225-lb male running a pair of 7:18 miles (to get that same 86). Something nearly 2x as heavy running 25% faster will generate a much more intense stress response.

    Originally Posted by Rachel
    as someone who retains fat and muscle mass well, running 3 times a week for 45 minutes has not impacted my gains negatively at all, and running seems to be the only form of cardio that gives any appreciable results.
    indeed, I'm pretty sure we discussed this as a function of bodytype and previous training experience. I cannot run without dropping muscle, but I outweigh you by nearly 100 lbs.

    I can do very high intensity stepmill training for long periods without losing muscle in the least. It's a hormonal adaptation that many of us have. High intensity exercise does a lot of good things for the way the body processes food, and it has a pretty profound affect on how your body needs to react.

    In the case of the natural endo-meso where tissue retention and accumulation is part of the natural bodytype, you can get away with doing much higher intensity cardio, more frequently, with less lean mass loss.

    Originally Posted by Rachel_n_SD View Post
    it is hard as f*ck so it definitely isn't low intensity either.
    perceived exertion != intensity. A 50-rep set of calf raises is also hard as fuck, but it's not high intensity.

    Originally Posted by spirit3530 View Post
    You gain muscle easy though so your body resists it (muscle loss) better than an ecto type. As soon as I put on my running shoes I start losing weight.
    exactly
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    In the Army I ran the 4 mile in under 30 minutes, 8 mile in under an hour, I'm new to weight lifting but know a thing about running so maybe I can give back for the info you guys have given me.

    For fat burning you have to keep your heart rate in a certain range depending on your age, for me at 28 it's between 133 and 155 bpm, forget pace, incline, and distance, it's the heart rate and time that counts.

    For cariovascular gains it's 155 to 170, this makes you run faster for longer, not as good for weight loss because the heightened rate causes your body to say "Oh ****, we'd better start storing some of this fat!!!" You'll still burn it but not at the same rate. And marathon runners stay thin because they don't lift weights, they train for marathons only to concentrate on their field and to keep weight down. You can gain weight and muscle while doing decent cario, just keep you heart rate where you want it, weight lose(cutting) in the lowwer, cariovascular health in the upper and adjust your intake... hydrate hydrate hydrate.

    I know this is gonna sound crazy but alot of marathon runners don't run many if any marathons to train for marathons, running that far that fast is actually bad for your heart's health. It's good to have your rate vary during a session from the min to max min max of the range your doing, two 15 minute sessions are better than one 30 minute, better results.

    I cycle for 15-20 minutes to help get my rate where I want it(keep the cadence between 90-100 rpm's) and warm my joints for the higher impact treadmill that I then get on for 15-20 minutes(hydration break in between)plus it helps prevent shin splints. My legs aren't tired afterwards so this is when I do my leg weight training. This I do only 1 sometimes 2 times a week now that I've started weight lifting to get my upper body to catch up with the lowwer.

    Hope this helps guys and gals.
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    Originally Posted by Dragger View Post
    In the Army I ran the 4 mile in under 30 minutes, 8 mile in under an hour, I'm new to weight lifting but know a thing about running so maybe I can give back for the info you guys have given me.

    For fat burning you have to keep your heart rate in a certain range depending on your age, for me at 28 it's between 133 and 155 bpm, forget pace, incline, and distance, it's the heart rate and time that counts.

    For cariovascular gains it's 155 to 170, this makes you run faster for longer, not as good for weight loss because the heightened rate causes your body to say "Oh ****, we'd better start storing some of this fat!!!" You'll still burn it but not at the same rate. And marathon runners stay thin because they don't lift weights, they train for marathons only to concentrate on their field and to keep weight down. You can gain weight and muscle while doing decent cario, just keep you heart rate where you want it, weight lose(cutting) in the lowwer, cariovascular health in the upper and adjust your intake... hydrate hydrate hydrate.

    I know this is gonna sound crazy but alot of marathon runners don't run many if any marathons to train for marathons, running that far that fast is actually bad for your heart's health. It's good to have your rate vary during a session from the min to max min max of the range your doing, two 15 minute sessions are better than one 30 minute, better results.

    I cycle for 15-20 minutes to help get my rate where I want it(keep the cadence between 90-100 rpm's) and warm my joints for the higher impact treadmill that I then get on for 15-20 minutes(hydration break in between)plus it helps prevent shin splints. My legs aren't tired afterwards so this is when I do my leg weight training. This I do only 1 sometimes 2 times a week now that I've started weight lifting to get my upper body to catch up with the lowwer.

    Hope this helps guys and gals.
    Sorry I have to disagree. It depends on bodytype. In here I don't think we are talking about maintaining a "fit" billy blanks physique more like a bodybuilder/powerbuilding physique. Please re read what Kethnaab wrote again.
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    Originally Posted by spirit3530 View Post
    Sorry I have to disagree. It depends on bodytype. In here I don't think we are talking about maintaining a "fit" billy blanks physique more like a bodybuilder/powerbuilding physique. Please re read what Kethnaab wrote again.
    Either way, your heart rate still determines if your doing more for burning fat or working the cardiovascular system. Everything else was just general facts about running.
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    Originally Posted by Dragger View Post
    Either way, your heart rate still determines if your doing more for burning fat or working the cardiovascular system. Everything else was just general facts about running.
    fair enough.
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    Originally Posted by Dragger View Post
    Either way, your heart rate still determines if your doing more for burning fat or working the cardiovascular system.
    lol
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    HEHEHE. Hey a post to compare to when he gives advice later on.
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    Originally Posted by spirit3530 View Post
    HEHEHE. Hey a post to compare to when he gives advice later on.
    ???
    "Ahoy, cap'n. Glad to see you weren't bested by the white whale or whatever the fuk you were doing out in the water."- theshoupguy
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