Do martial arts make you a better fighter?

**imweasel** · 10-24-2006, 08:20 PM

This may seem like a naive question, but today the question popped in my head.

Sure they make you more disciplined and give you a techinque, but can they build on what's is or isn't there?

A person is born with an inherent fighting ability that grows and matures based on their experiences, is it wrong to believe that a terrible fighter can take up Muay Thai, Wrestling, and BJJ and suddenly become the greatest fighter ever? Sure the techniques there, but it's how you use it right?

I'm posing this question because, well I've honestly been thinking about it and I'd like to get some other views.

It's my belief that superior technique can truimph over a good fighter on occassion, but if you put the best natural fighter in the world against the guy with the best fighting technique but with a "wimpy" mentality, who wins?

**Chett** · 10-24-2006, 08:21 PM

what the hell? what the hell is a natural fighter?

if you put some random guy who people think is a good natural fighter vs a good muay thai fighter or a good jiu-jitsu guy the one who is actually TRAINED will win.

key word TRAINED

**MainFrameSolja** · 10-24-2006, 08:25 PM

^ Not everytime

**Chett** · 10-24-2006, 08:29 PM

Originally Posted by MainFrameSolja

^ Not everytime

what?

what the hell are you talking about now?

when a fighter is trained to fight, they will beat some random moron who isnt trained

**mark2288** · 10-24-2006, 08:33 PM

besides from perhaps a lucky punch I'd have to agree with Chett. The trained fighter is well TRAINED to fight. plain and simple.

**MainFrameSolja** · 10-24-2006, 08:34 PM

Originally Posted by Chett

what?

what the hell are you talking about now?

when a fighter is trained to fight, they will beat some random moron who isnt trained

No..

Trained fighters will have a higher chance of winning, but nothing is guaranteed on who would win. And there is no way to come to a conclusion, as in a fight anything can happen so correct data cannot be taken.

**Kane Fan** · 10-24-2006, 08:38 PM

if you spar
yes you can improve someones ability as a fighter
if you take boxing and all you ever do is bag work and never spar
you'll still be crap in a fight when someone hits you

**Chett** · 10-24-2006, 08:44 PM

Originally Posted by MainFrameSolja

No..

Trained fighters will have a higher chance of winning, but nothing is guaranteed on who would win. And there is no way to come to a conclusion, as in a fight anything can happen so correct data cannot be taken.

so are you trying to tell me some dumbass on the street who thinks he can fight could beat even an average MMA fighter in a fight?

its not gonna happen, stop acting like there are " too many variables blah blah blah insert pseudo-intellectual bull**** here"

TRAINING will win you fights especially against UNTRAINED individuals.

**MainFrameSolja** · 10-24-2006, 08:50 PM

Originally Posted by Chett

so are you trying to tell me some dumbass on the street who thinks he can fight could beat even an average MMA fighter in a fight?

its not gonna happen, stop acting like there are " too many variables blah blah blah insert pseudo-intellectual bull**** here"

TRAINING will win you fights especially against UNTRAINED individuals.

1. Stop putting words in my mouth
2. That "psuedo-intellectual bull****" makes perfect sense and is true.

**Chett** · 10-24-2006, 08:52 PM

Originally Posted by MainFrameSolja

1. Stop putting words in my mouth
2. That "psuedo-intellectual bull****" makes perfect sense and is true.

no lol your wrong

the pseudo-intellectual bull**** is just douchebaggery to the fullest

**imweasel** · 10-24-2006, 08:57 PM

Let me just clarify what I meant.

A "natural" fighter is a guy who'll train his body/whatever but practice one or two techniques and be really good at them.

Someone "trained" practices multiple techniques and therefore diverts his focus between them while the "natural" fighter focuses on one or two techniques and gets good at them(in theory).

**Kane Fan** · 10-24-2006, 09:01 PM

that is COMPLETLY different from trained and untrained
so different that you should ignore this thread and start a different one with better wording honestly

**Chett** · 10-24-2006, 09:02 PM

Originally Posted by imweasel

Let me just clarify what I meant.

A "natural" fighter is a guy who'll train his body/whatever but practice one or two techniques and be really good at them.

Someone "trained" practices multiple techniques and therefore diverts his focus between them while the "natural" fighter focuses on one or two techniques and gets good at them(in theory).

if your just focusing on two things your not gonna get very good. like someone like kevin randleman, he has great explosiveness and power and is a great wrestler, but he got subbed within 40 seconds of fighting mauricio rua. or mark coleman, he fought the most well rounded fighter of them all, (fedor) and all mark coleman has is his wrestling and ground and pound, and he wasnt able to do anything because fedor is well rounded and had a plethora of techniques to use on him.

then semmy schilt, a great striker, but when he fought fedor he was immediately taken down and ground and pounded throughout the whole fight.

**sevenmonths** · 10-24-2006, 09:08 PM

Martial arts give you tools, but fighting (i.e. sparring) is what makes you a better fighter.

**imweasel** · 10-24-2006, 09:12 PM

I don't believe I should start a new thread.

You have fighters that train on their own and develop their own style based on what works for them, but they have no formal training in anything and fight for enjoyment.

Then you martial arts who compete in tournaments and such, but does training in martial arts make you a better fighter?

Seriously, everybody is born with an ability to fight, and when you put somebody who's refined his ability to fight a little bit by hitting a heavy bag and wrestling with buddies against someone who's trained in judo or something for a few years but has no real "fighting ability"(i.e. the knowledge of what to do in any situation during the fight, what would be considered by some a natural talent at fighting) who would be the better fighter?

**mjfan12** · 10-24-2006, 09:19 PM

no such thing as a mother ****ing natural fighter.

fighting is about knowledge, skills, and techniques.

**Otis_Redding** · 10-24-2006, 09:39 PM

Originally Posted by mjfan12

no such thing as a mother ****ing natural fighter.

fighting is about knowledge, skills, and techniques.

Meh, I dunno about that. I had a friend in high school, who everyone used to call a born fighter. He never had training in his life, but had the natural ability to stay calm during fights. He was born with power in his punches, and even without any grapling training, everytime he tangled during a fight and the two fell to the ground, he always seem to get the guy under him as he fell. He just had a natural sense of his own body position. He was also the first one to give me "stars" when we fought and he caught me with a hook. Now if that isn't a natural fighter, I don't know what is.

**Kane Fan** · 10-24-2006, 10:03 PM

Originally Posted by Chett

if your just focusing on two things your not gonna get very good. like someone like kevin randleman, he has great explosiveness and power and is a great wrestler, but he got subbed within 40 seconds of fighting mauricio hua. or mark coleman, he fought the most well rounded fighter of them all, (fedor) and all mark coleman has is his wrestling and ground and pound, and he wasnt able to do anything because fedor is well rounded and had a plethora of techniques to use on him.

then semmy schilt, a great striker, but when he fought fedor he was immediately taken down and ground and pounded throughout the whole fight.

dude you gave two examples I can give two examples of the other way
Randy Coture and Chuck Liddell
both defeated better rounded fighters by controlling the fight
not to mention Matt Hughes

I mean I agree be as well rounded as you can but you can't say that if your not vastly skilled in all areas you'll get defeated by default
part of the problem is the orginal posters question STILL isn't clear
what's one or two things
is that like one or two techniques
like he can do a one legged takedown and throw elbows on the ground?
or one or two 'things' like he's good at wrestling/GNP
all aspects of both
that's a HUGE difference in fighters

**Chett** · 10-25-2006, 03:51 AM

Originally Posted by Kane Fan

dude you gave two examples I can give two examples of the other way
Randy Coture and Chuck Liddell
both defeated better rounded fighters by controlling the fight
not to mention Matt Hughes

I mean I agree be as well rounded as you can but you can't say that if your not vastly skilled in all areas you'll get defeated by default
part of the problem is the orginal posters question STILL isn't clear
what's one or two things
is that like one or two techniques
like he can do a one legged takedown and throw elbows on the ground?
or one or two 'things' like he's good at wrestling/GNP
all aspects of both
that's a HUGE difference in fighters

ehh what the hell? chuck liddell and randy couture are both well rounded fighters. so is matt hughes. they actually have some SUBMISSION DEFENSE and chuck liddell has takedown defense

hammerhouse people are mainly just wrestling and thats why they lose.

**bjjwraslter7** · 10-25-2006, 05:52 AM

This is probably the dumbest thread I've seen in a long time...

You guys think that because someone wins some fights against other people that have no idea how to fight that makes them a badass and means they can fight. When two people with no training whatsoever fight it's not whos the better fighter, it's whos less ****y. Just because a guy ends up on top when the fights go to the ground doesn't mean he has the slightest idea of how to wrestle, it just means he doesn't suck as much as the other kid.

Also thread starter quit changing your question if you want it to be answered. First you say someone with no training against a trained fighter, then you say "someone that trains grappling with friends and hits a heavy bag against someone that has done judo for 2 years and doesn't fight", make up your mind.

The thing you have to realize is that even if someone is a decent street fighter for having no training, they don't even know the very basics of boxing, wrestling ect even if they have tried to train themselves. If you don't even know the basics you are pretty screwed because you make mistakes and leave openings you don't even know are there. Untrained people don't know what they are suppose to do, and maybe more importantly they don't know what they AREN'T suppose to do, which can get you in big trouble.

**Otis_Redding** · 10-25-2006, 06:34 AM

Originally Posted by bjjwraslter7

This is probably the dumbest thread I've seen in a long time...

You guys think that because someone wins some fights against other people that have no idea how to fight that makes them a badass and means they can fight. When two people with no training whatsoever fight it's not whos the better fighter, it's whos less ****y. Just because a guy ends up on top when the fights go to the ground doesn't mean he has the slightest idea of how to wrestle, it just means he doesn't suck as much as the other kid.

Also thread starter quit changing your question if you want it to be answered. First you say someone with no training against a trained fighter, then you say "someone that trains grappling with friends and hits a heavy bag against someone that has done judo for 2 years and doesn't fight", make up your mind.

The thing you have to realize is that even if someone is a decent street fighter for having no training, they don't even know the very basics of boxing, wrestling ect even if they have tried to train themselves. If you don't even know the basics you are pretty screwed because you make mistakes and leave openings you don't even know are there. Untrained people don't know what they are suppose to do, and maybe more importantly they don't know what they AREN'T suppose to do, which can get you in big trouble.

Natural ability always wins out in my book. I've seen way too many so called "trained" fighters get their asses handed to them by what you call "untrained" people. There are just guys that can throw their weight around, plain and simple. A decent street fighter knows the basics of winning and he knows what works for him/her. The basics = theory, not tested for themselves. What the hell is that going to do in a real fight? Of course training helps, I'm not denying that, but you also can't deny the fact that there are plenty of people out there that can handle themselves without any sort of training what so ever.

**bjjwraslter7** · 10-25-2006, 06:39 AM

Originally Posted by Otis_Redding

The basics = theory, not tested for themselves. What the hell is that going to do in a real fight? .

You can leave now...

**bjjwraslter7** · 10-25-2006, 06:46 AM

Maybe you guys are talking about like kung fu and karate mcdojo fighters, which is different than being trained in effective arts.

**Otis_Redding** · 10-25-2006, 06:46 AM

Originally Posted by bjjwraslter7

You can leave now...

Good argument...really informative.

**bjjwraslter7** · 10-25-2006, 06:54 AM

Originally Posted by Otis_Redding

Good argument...really informative.

After such an ignorant comment I see no point in arguing because I don't think you will listen.

How are the basics in something like wrestling that has been used in competitive sports dating back to ancient rome "theory that hasn't been tested?" How would it do no good in a fight when it's used in world wide amateur and professional competition fighting?

When I was in 7th grade I was strong, agressive, played football and other sports ect and thought I was a good fighter. I got in a fight with my friends little brother who was smaller, younger, and weaker than I was but he had wrestled a couple years. I was trying my hardest to kick his ass and he didn't even have to throw a punch he just dominated me and completely controled me until I was so tired I couldn't do anything. He basicaly laid a beating on me without even hiting me, while I was trying to take his head off. I joined the wrestling team the following season.

Then more recently I got into bjj, I thought because I was a good wrestler I would own them. Again I didn't know the basics of jiu jitsu and made stupid beginner mistakes and got submitted repeatedly because I didn't know the basic technique.

**Otis_Redding** · 10-25-2006, 06:58 AM

Originally Posted by bjjwraslter7

After such an ignorant comment I see no point in arguing because I don't think you will listen.

How are the basics in something like wrestling that has been used in competitive sports dating back to ancient rome "theory that hasn't been tested?" How would it do no good in a fight when it's used in world wide amateur and professional competition fighting?

Theories that haven't been tested by the respective individual. Its just like learning in school. You learn the theory first, then apply it to real situations. Just because it was tested in the old days,...those tests are going to help the guy that just had some instructions based on those tests and some book learning, in a real fight situation? The natural fighter wins, he's had way more practice.

**bjjwraslter7** · 10-25-2006, 07:03 AM

Originally Posted by Otis_Redding

Theories that haven't been tested by the respective individual. Its just like learning in school. You learn the theory first, then apply it to real situations. Just because it was tested in the old days,...those tests are going to help the guy that just had some instructions based on those tests and some book learning, in a real fight situation? The natural fighter wins, he's had way more practice.

lol so having hundreds of competition wrestling matchs isn't applying the theory? You think wrestling practice is done in a class room and we just go through the motions? No, you go full speed all the time against equaly trained resisting opponents that are also going full speed. It becomes second nature, you get to where your body will react without your mind even telling it to. It's called muscle memory. One time my friend came up from behind while I was just standing there and bear hugged me, I hit a standing switch and was behind him before I even realized I did it.

I understand what you mean, and it is true if you just go through the motions and aren't going all out with resisting opponents then no your technique won't work in a fight. That's why karate and tkd mcdojos are garbage, you never actualy fight anyone. That's also why mma arts are so effective. Boxing, muay thai, bjj, wrestling ect. are all things you can practice and compete full speed. You're body gets so use to it that's it becomes second nature and you don't have to think.

That's also why there aren't many guys that do mma that are pussys. Yeah you can have the best technique in the world but if your just a big pussy that's afraid to take a hit then you won't win many fights, but the fact is you can't train in those arts and be a pussy. You can do tkd or kung fu and be a big pussy so yes a good street fighter can beat some trained people in some situations, but very rarely against an mma guy. To tell you the truth if were talking about karate and stuff like that I don't even consider that person a trained fighter. For me to consider someone a trained fighter they would, like you said, have to not only study the theory but apply it in real situations with resisting opponents, otherwise it is useless and no it won't work in a fight.

**Otis_Redding** · 10-25-2006, 07:22 AM

Originally Posted by bjjwraslter7

lol so having hundreds of competition wrestling matchs isn't applying the theory? You think wrestling practice is done in a class room and we just go through the motions? No, you go full speed all the time against equaly trained resisting opponents that are also going full speed. It becomes second nature, you get to where your body will react without your mind even telling it to. It's called muscle memory. One time my friend came up from behind while I was just standing there and bear hugged me, I hit a standing switch and was behind him before I even realized I did it.

I understand what you mean, and it is true if you just go through the motions and aren't going all out with resisting opponents then no your technique won't work in a fight. That's why karate and tkd mcdojos are garbage, you never actualy fight anyone. That's also why mma arts are so effective. Boxing, muay thai, bjj, wrestling ect. are all things you can practice and compete full speed. You're body gets so use to it that's it becomes second nature and you don't have to think.

That's also why there aren't many guys that do mma that are pussys. Yeah you can have the best technique in the world but if your just a big pussy that's afraid to take a hit then you won't win many fights, but the fact is you can't train in those arts and be a pussy. You can do tkd or kung fu and be a big pussy so yes a good street fighter can beat some trained people in some situations, but very rarely against an mma guy.

I'm sorry, but the pussy percentage is equal in all practices. Alot of kids just take the classes because they feel weak, they feel as though they need to prove something to themselves, or they watched a few MMA fights and they think its cool. This applys to all the combat sports. You CAN take those classes and still be a bitch, for lack of a better word. Over the years, I've come across a few so called MMA guys. Not that hard to beat, and all I ever trained in was boxing and tkd. They try to use their grappling techs they learned in class and try to charge at my legs to take me down. What is the easiest way to end that? Drop a knee on their shoulders with your body weight when they try to dive under you. Who taught me this? Nobody and it works very well. And when we get on the ground and try to use "technique", I usually twist them up pretty easy. No wrestling or bjj training either. I just have a sense of where and how my body is positioned. I also instinctively know how to adjust to get the best leverage. Surprisingly, boxing taught me more about leverage and balance then anything else I've tried.

There is no one set way for everyone. Your points are valid, but it does not apply to all. There are the ones that know their body, and then the rest, which are unbalanced, clumsy oafs that can't really be helped, no matter how much training they get. If you're not born with it, you'll never get it.

**bjjwraslter7** · 10-25-2006, 07:24 AM

Basicaly if you are just a big pussy nothing will make you a good fighter, and if you train ineffective arts and don't apply the techniques in live sparring or competition with resisting opponents it won't do you any good.

If you are a naturaly tough person and train in effective styles and practice full speed with resisting opponents and compete, you will be dominant over most untrained individuals.

Agreed?

**bjjwraslter7** · 10-25-2006, 07:29 AM

Originally Posted by Otis_Redding

I'm sorry, but the pussy percentage is equal in all practices. Alot of kids just take the classes because they feel weak, they feel as though they need to prove something to themselves, or they watched a few MMA fights and they think its cool. This applys to all the combat sports. You CAN take those classes and still be a bitch, for lack of a better word. Over the years, I've come across a few so called MMA guys. Not that hard to beat, and all I ever trained in was boxing and tkd. They try to use their grappling techs they learned in class and try to charge at my legs to take me down. What is the easiest way to end that? Drop a knee on their shoulders with your body weight when they try to dive under you. Who taught me this? Nobody and it works very well. And when we get on the ground and try to use "technique", I usually twist them up pretty easy. No wrestling or bjj training either. I just have a sense of where and how my body is positioned. I also instinctively know how to adjust to get the best leverage. Surprisingly, boxing taught me more about leverage and balance then anything else I've tried.

I've trained at an mma place a little, and it was no joke. Some of those guys you are talking about showed up...and they didn't make it through a practice. I guess it depends on the place.

As for the grapplers you faced, they sucked ass trust me. Just from your description of them charging your legs I can tell they are poor wrestlers. Someone with a good shot would not be described that way. Also the defense you described is not effective shot defense, they just didn't know how to shoot. You need to go against a good grappler before you make your opinion. I wrestled sense I was 13 and I got submitted left and right against blue belts in bjj.

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