1-ad/4-ad

[TBoneHuffman]

Without starting a whole debate on whether or not prohormones are a good thing or a bad thing, I have a couple of simple questions.

1. I've seen the use of 1-AD and 4-AD cycles recommended in other threads in this forum to make good gains. My question is should I do a cycle of both of these at the same time?

2. I've also seen recommendations on using a product called 6oxo after a cycle of the above prohormones is finished. I'm unfamiliar with this product. What is it and what does it do?

As always, help is much obliged.

[pogue]

this should get you started
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/catproh.htm

[TheAgnos1]

You should really do a lot more research before you move foward with a PH cycle. If you don't even know what 6-OXO is, that means you definately should study some more bro.
http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/ergo/6oxo.html

-AGNOS

[hardtribe]

Bro:

Read this short segment from Big Cat, No proven long term medical studies ---- could have potetntial health issues by using this crap.

The androgenicity is still very much an issue. It can convert to DHT via a different pathway (I should say convert back) but it's not known to what extent or what effects it has. So far no one has reported any serious side effects in this nature, but neither has there been any rigorous large-scale testing. The jury is still out on what this means to people who are at risk for things like prostate enlargement and hair loss. Since it is extremely androgenic in other ways as well, this is one aspect that will need further digging to get to the bottom of. I fear this may be the weakness of 1AD.

[TheGreekGod]

Originally posted by hardtribe
Bro:

Read this short segment from Big Cat, No proven long term medical studies ---- could have potetntial health issues by using this crap.

The androgenicity is still very much an issue. It can convert to DHT via a different pathway (I should say convert back) but it's not known to what extent or what effects it has. So far no one has reported any serious side effects in this nature, but neither has there been any rigorous large-scale testing. The jury is still out on what this means to people who are at risk for things like prostate enlargement and hair loss. Since it is extremely androgenic in other ways as well, this is one aspect that will need further digging to get to the bottom of. I fear this may be the weakness of 1AD.

Funny how you take bits and pieces of articles to try to make fit your point of view? Why don't you read the last paragraph of this link? Since you take quotes from Big Cat you must think highly of his opinions, Right? www.bodybuilding.com/fun/catstudy2.htm

[hardtribe]

Drake:

After 3 weeks they gaine a little over a pound of muscle. How much of that muscle gain will be around after you stop taking 1-AD and what about the hair loss, shruken left ball, and some zits.

Yuck - that is awful

How much of that muscle gain is due to workouts vs the 1-AD
That's the big question

[BIGPOPPAPUMP]

Originally posted by hardtribe
Drake:

After 3 weeks they gaine a little over a pound of muscle. How much of that muscle gain will be around after you stop taking 1-AD and what about the hair loss, shruken left ball, and some zits.

Yuck - that is awful

How much of that muscle gain is due to workouts vs the 1-AD
That's the big question

he will gain and keep mostly everything if he eat correctly and trains heavy 1-ad does not covert into estogen.

[hardtribe]

To All

You are correct but like all legal steroids, they work on a similiar principle to real steroids.

An increase in levels of test in your body, increases protein synthesis to your muscles. Your muscles grow larger because your body is efficently converting protein to muscle with the help of increasced test levels.

All the4se product you read about are concerned with raising your bosies test levels.

Now here is the problem

When you stop taking these phs, your test levels drop back to normal and your body loses what little gains you might have made.

Two facts:

1. No supplement company has done medical research to determine proper dosage levels, based on age and workout intensity.

2. No supplement comapny has done blind testing with multiple groups of people, hence results you're getting cannot be attributes to the ph alone.

[BIGPOPPAPUMP]

blah blah blah you talk crap out of your *******
i have finnished a steroid cycle not to long ago and after i stopped i lost 5 pounds out of my 27 gained.you keep most of your weight if you do it right.

[hardtribe]

Really Big whatever your name is
You take illegal drugs (seem proud of that), and you only lost 5 pounds out of 27.
I find that hard to beleive - how much more will you lose - what damage are you doing to your body.

I think you have no right to talk about ph's - given your use of substances that can cause long term medical problems

[hardtribe]

One more thing big ASS whatever - what about responding to my post concerning long term muscle gains using ph's instead of name calling - maybe your brain got juiced.

[BIGPOPPAPUMP]

Originally posted by hardtribe
Really Big whatever your name is
You take illegal drugs (seem proud of that), and you only lost 5 pounds out of 27.
I find that hard to beleive - how much more will you lose - what damage are you doing to your body.

I think you have no right to talk about ph's - given your use of substances that can cause long term medical problems

i used all of the ph before i went to steroids. i beleive roids are safe if you follow correct doses ect you find that hard to beleive check out my post on my cycle in the roid section then.

[BIGPOPPAPUMP]

i dont have time to argue to you.....
people ph like 1-ad,nordiol,4diol work!!!!

[hardtribe]

don't have the time or the knowledge

[BIGPOPPAPUMP]

Originally posted by hardtribe
don't have the time or the knowledge

um you dont bro ,you no nothing about supps.

[TheGreekGod]

Originally posted by hardtribe
Drake:

After 3 weeks they gaine a little over a pound of muscle. How much of that muscle gain will be around after you stop taking 1-AD and what about the hair loss, shruken left ball, and some zits.

Yuck - that is awful

How much of that muscle gain is due to workouts vs the 1-AD
That's the big question

I don't know where you read that there was only 1 pound of muscle gained. If your referring to test subject C&D, they were not taking prohormones they were the control group. Why don't you go back to school and learn to read and understand what you have read. Your so quick to cut and paste you don't even know what's in your post.

[pogue]

Originally posted by hardtribe
To All

You are correct but like all legal steroids, they work on a similiar principle to real steroids.

An increase in levels of test in your body, increases protein synthesis to your muscles. Your muscles grow larger because your body is efficently converting protein to muscle with the help of increasced test levels.

This is specific to the hormone you are speaking about. Some convert to an active hormone via an enzyme, and some are already hormones. Increasing certain hormone levels clearly increases muscle mass and lowers adipose tissues. There are hundreds of studies of steroids that deal with this, and plenty of user feedback to back this up.

Originally posted by hardtribe All the4se product you read about are concerned with raising your bosies test levels.

Now here is the problem

When you stop taking these phs, your test levels drop back to normal and your body loses what little gains you might have made.

This is the case if you are uneducated in how to follow proper post cycle procedure. If this happens, you shouldn't be taking these types of products. First off, your body will stop producing its own testosterone in as little as 4 weeks. After you stop synthetic supplementation, your estrogen levels will rise to keep your endocrine system in balance. This is why you take anti-estrogen products, as well as other supplements to try and rebound your testosterone. There are other methods to this that need to be understood, like increasing calories, taking things to lower cortisol level, etc. The point is, you will lose some gains, but hopefully, if you follow procedure, you will keep a majority.

Originally posted by hardtribe Two facts:

1. No supplement company has done medical research to determine proper dosage levels, based on age and workout intensity.

2. No supplement comapny has done blind testing with multiple groups of people, hence results you're getting cannot be attributes to the ph alone.

This is correct. There have been no studies showing proper dosage and to prove that they actually increase muscle mass, etc. (This is dealing with PHs, specificlly). However, there have been studies proving that they convert to the target hormone and that they increase blood serum levels of that hormone. These studies are very expensive to fund, and smaller supplement companies cannot afford to do what larger pharmacuticals can. There is also the fear that proving that these substances have anabolic activity will come into question their legallity, which is going on right now in Congress.

hardtribe is right, there are side effects, and there are potential problems with these substances. However, to say that they don't work is a false statement. You just have to take into account whether or not you are predisposed for problems and whether or not you want to take the risks. If not, than don't use the products. If you want to use these to help you with your goals and you're a responsible individual who realizes what you're getting into, then by all means go for it.

[TBoneHuffman]

OK guys, this thread has started to pretty much turn into what I didn't want, which was a discussion about whether or not prohormones were good or bad. I think that issue had been adequately debated all over this forum. I have already decided to try prohormones to see what kind of gains I can make and I am looking for advice on taking them. This doesn't mean that I don't respect the opinions of the people who feel that they are harmful or the people that hold those opinions. On the contrary, Hardtribe I value your input and I appreciate what you are trying to do. These supplements can and do have some side effects if taking irresponsibly and your attempts to educate someone ignorant in their use in order to keep them from going out and just gobbling handfuls of them should be applauded. However, as an adult I have made the conscious decision to try them to see if they work for me. With that in mind I'm thinking of trying the following to see if I can make some good gains:

600 mg of 1-ad and 600 mg of 4-ad daily for 6 weeks, followed by 6 weeks of 6-oxo during the time off from the 1-ad and 4-ad.

My protein intake is pretty high at around 230 grams a day (my bodyweight hovers between 185 and 190). I train 5 days a week hitting each body part once a week. I train fairly heavy going from 12 reps down to 8 as I pyramid up in weight. I'll probably change my training in a month or so by bumping up the weight and going from 10 reps down to 6 which is about as low as I go on any exercise.

So my question now is, if I following the above supplement cycles and couple that with the training schedule above, will that be adequate to make good progress? Anyone with ideas on how to tweak this please respond. Pogue, your replies that I've read have always seemed intelligent and well thought out so I'd be especially interested in your input.

Thanks much guys I appreciate all the help!!

[chrisrico]

Originally posted by TBoneHuffman
With that in mind I'm thinking of trying the following to see if I can make some good gains:

600 mg of 1-ad and 600 mg of 4-ad daily for 6 weeks, followed by 6 weeks of 6-oxo during the time off from the 1-ad and 4-ad.

So my question now is, if I following the above supplement cycles and couple that with the training schedule above, will that be adequate to make good progress?

Dude, you're going to make GOOD progress if you stay on track during the PH cycle. The main thing to remember above all is to get lots of sleep. Your body will be working overtime to repair itself...try to get 8-10 hours a night at least. Good luck!


BIGPOPPA: give'em hell dude. PH's kick butt and the experienced people all know it!

[pogue]

Originally posted by TBoneHuffman

600 mg of 1-ad and 600 mg of 4-ad daily for 6 weeks, followed by 6 weeks of 6-oxo during the time off from the 1-ad and 4-ad.

My protein intake is pretty high at around 230 grams a day (my bodyweight hovers between 185 and 190). I train 5 days a week hitting each body part once a week. I train fairly heavy going from 12 reps down to 8 as I pyramid up in weight. I'll probably change my training in a month or so by bumping up the weight and going from 10 reps down to 6 which is about as low as I go on any exercise.

So my question now is, if I following the above supplement cycles and couple that with the training schedule above, will that be adequate to make good progress? Anyone with ideas on how to tweak this please respond. Pogue, your replies that I've read have always seemed intelligent and well thought out so I'd be especially interested in your input.

Thanks much guys I appreciate all the help!!

Your dosing of 1ad sounds fine. However, 4ad is absorbed poorly via the digestive track. You may want to use a transdermal 4ad product such as 4aderm by Avant or t4 by BDC. If you're going this route, you could also use a transdermal all together with 1-test/4ad combined in them and remove the 1ad completely. However, if you definitely want to use 4ad orally, Ergopharm has several 4ad products that might be benefial, as does Molecular Nutrition. Those are the only two oral products I would consider using.

You would probably want to use these for no more than 4-6 weeks, and use 6oxo the entire time you are off (which would be another 4-6 weeks). You also want to take an ECA, flax, ZMA, and if you want, tribulus during your off time to boost your natural test levels.

As far as protein, training, and etc. I don't know your stats so I couldn't say for sure, but the general rule of thumb is to consume 1.5-2g of protein per bodyweight, around 4-5k calories per day if you're bulking, and workouts I recommend would be 3-4 times a week, with low volume and high intensity, but everyone is different and go with what works for you. With proper diet, training, and post cycle routine you could probably manage 10-15lb during a 4 week cycle.

[BIGPOPPAPUMP]

Originally posted by chrisrico
Dude, you're going to make GOOD progress if you stay on track during the PH cycle. The main thing to remember above all is to get lots of sleep. Your body will be working overtime to repair itself...try to get 8-10 hours a night at least. Good luck!


BIGPOPPA: give'em hell dude. PH's kick butt and the experienced people all know it!

your right bro

[djv]

Originally posted by TBoneHuffman
[B]OK guys, this thread has started to pretty much turn into what I didn't want, which was a discussion about whether or not prohormones were good or bad. I think that issue had been adequately debated all over this forum. I have already decided to try prohormones to see what kind of gains I can make and I am looking for advice on taking them.

Now I think it's quite obvious what Hardtribes intent is when opening these threads. He has underminded every thread here and never sticks to the topic at hand. He gives no advice but to try and steer members clear of what he considers(without any research I might add) "dangerous supplements".

Once again Hardtribe does not advise anything more then a cut and paste sermon that we've had to read again and again and again.

All this gospel coming from someone with absolutely and self-admittedly no prior experience with pro hormones and supplements in general.

His threads/responses have become more combative and have digressed to name calling when he replies.

IMO, this crap will continue until he is either banned or gives up his fruitless effort for the sinners here to rebuke their supplements.

[hardtribe]

To All involved:

My goal was not to be argumentative or use foul language - I responded that way when provoked by other board members.

I will apologize for that - sorry.

The purpose of any board is to emulate a group discussing any number of topics, sorta like a bunch of guys talking about there favorite sports teams.

Now, you mean to tell me that in that group there will be no heated conversations, or people having a different point of view.

Some responses want to have me banned - I find that very interesting, why not have a conversation.

Why not discuss, in the context of ph's, that diet and workouts might have a bearing on results, that ph's migh contribute very little to muscle growth.

Why not elect someone on this board, have him post diet, workouts and dosages, and track results over 10 weeks.
We can,like adults, do our own study - prove me right or wrong!

I have messaged Patrick Arnold, the creator of 1-AD, and he indicated there are no formal studies on his products - just word of mouth.

The danger here, and what is apparent to me, is that most board memebers are not really sure of the gains these products provide.
It really is conjecture at this point - very dangerous.

There has been no serious discussion of health risks, long and short term - there should be!

That's what we are talking about here. I have a different point of view - I think it's important that these issues should be discussed

I have no interest in going anywhere and look forward to more conversations in the future.

[stri8ted]

Originally posted by hardtribe
To All involved:

My goal was not to be argumentative or use foul language - I responded that way when provoked by other board members.

I will apologize for that - sorry.

The purpose of any board is to emulate a group discussing any number of topics, sorta like a bunch of guys talking about there favorite sports teams.

Now, you mean to tell me that in that group there will be no heated conversations, or people having a different point of view.

Some responses want to have me banned - I find that very interesting, why not have a conversation.

Why not discuss, in the context of ph's, that diet and workouts might have a bearing on results, that ph's migh contribute very little to muscle growth.

Why not elect someone on this board, have him post diet, workouts and dosages, and track results over 10 weeks.
We can,like adults, do our own study - prove me right or wrong!

I have messaged Patrick Arnold, the creator of 1-AD, and he indicated there are no formal studies on his products - just word of mouth.

The danger here, and what is apparent to me, is that most board memebers are not really sure of the gains these products provide.
It really is conjecture at this point - very dangerous.

There has been no serious discussion of health risks, long and short term - there should be!

That's what we are talking about here. I have a different point of view - I think it's important that these issues should be discussed

I have no interest in going anywhere and look forward to more conversations in the future.

That is great that you question things before you jump right in, as you should. I think everyone's problem is that instead of answering the question in the thread, you bash them or a product without explanation ie. "ph's suck" If you want to debate the issue start a thread with that topic and put it in the appropriate forum.

-Stri8ted

[hardtribe]

You might be right - but I think comments when someone is actually using the products could provide benefit to the user of ph's.

Thank you for the comment

[djv]

As far as being banned I could probably care less and that's not my call but spare us all and cut out the ranting on your arguement that nothing works and there's no research.

We all no know your position on these products.

We all know about the lack of research. No matter what the reasoning.

We all (or 99.9%) know there could be consequences.

You've created a annoying type hatred towards yourself by not having a different opinion mind you but by hijacking numerous threads and repeating yourself coupled with a lack of scientifically backed studies to stand with those statements.

[wreckin machine]

HARDRIVE...or what ever you call yourself....be gone with you...we dont want your business here.

[hardtribe]

Point taken - you don't want me here....

I'll be calm here ---
Nice way to have an ADULT conversation.
Way to discuss topics - yoo know a conversation discussing the issues.
Give and take

[djv]

Originally posted by hardtribe
Point taken - you don't want me here....

I'll be calm here ---
Nice way to have an ADULT conversation.
Way to discuss topics - yoo know a conversation discussing the issues.
Give and take

That's the problem, you don't know the issues. You've managed to turn Hardtribe into the issue and the topic.

The issues you discuss do not pertain to the thread topic at hand 99.9% of the time.

The creatine topic was your biggest contribution you made without running roughshod over someones supplements they were taking.

No one cares if you stay or go if you'll just lose the sermon and bashing and contribute more then what you've come in here with.

[hardtribe]

Issues,
You have not addressed the following:
1. Medical issues
2. Weight gain issues
3. Supplement comapanies ripping us, the consumer off.

Discuss the above issues. This is the perfect place to have an open frank disscussion.

So, why don't you bring something to the table - rather then complaining.

Show me something
Other then complaints about me.