I have been on a low dose baby aspirin for several years with the encouragement of my bro-in-law Cardiologist. A week ago I added in fish oil and have been bruising badly. Even on the underside of my arms where I did heavy Scott curls yesterday....right where the curl bench hit my arms. Sucker is HUGE. I just read several articles on the web that suggest not combining the two due to excessive bruising. Anyone else experience this??
Bruised, battered but never beaten....
Baldie
|
-
11-18-2006, 05:34 AM #1
Fish oil and low dose asprin...a no no combination??
-
11-18-2006, 05:54 AM #2
Hey Baldie-
I'm on Plavix, FULL aspirin, and fish oil. I'm constantly developing large bruises - last weekend, I carried a TV upstairs to a bedroom and I've had these black and blues on the inside of my forearms where the cabinet was pressing!
The bruising is from the combo of aspirin and fish oil - both tend to reduce clotting, increase bleeding time and mak the blood "slippery". This is heart protective and reduces risk for heart attack and can also minimize damage if you do have one.
BUT - you should be taking them for a reason. What's your risk factor other than age? Protocol these days in cardiology is low dose aspririn for those in our age group. Heart disease in the family? Your cardiac history show any problems? Any stents for instance? Risky blood chemistry?
For me, I've had an MI, 3 stents, and one incident last summer with what they guessed was a plaque break in one of my coronary arteries. The meds I was taking saved me that time from any damage.
The cosmetics do suck - who wants to walk around with black and blues all the time? But it comes down to risk vs reward. For me it makese sense. For you - you really need to discuss with your doc.
Th science should be respected but should be used in the context of the individual.
I hope this helps somewhat. If there's anything else I can offer you, please let me know and I'll try to provide you more background.Knocked down seven times, stand up eight.
-
11-18-2006, 06:04 AM #3
-
11-18-2006, 06:36 AM #4
-
-
11-18-2006, 07:10 AM #5
-
11-18-2006, 07:18 AM #6
-
11-18-2006, 08:19 AM #7
-
11-18-2006, 09:44 AM #8
-
-
11-18-2006, 10:36 AM #9
-
11-18-2006, 11:15 AM #10
-
11-18-2006, 09:26 PM #11
No-no? Or sometimes yes, sometimes no.
What an interesting thread, snake. I've been thinking about it all day. Don't quite know how to phrase this, so I'll give the 'Reader's Digest' version.
From what I've read, aspirin and fish oil both cause many different biochemical effects in the body ranging from the blood clotting factors you mentioned to lipid levels. As far as blood thinning, taking a low dose of aspirin is not significantly different than taking a full dose, and the effect lasts about 3 days. Fish oils are more unclear, since the 'strength' is often not standardized, the issue of becoming spoiled/rancid is present, and the amount absorbed and used by the body may differ from person to person more than aspirin.
I take both and I haven't had much of a bruising problem. But I don't take both everyday. Since the aspirin's effects last 3 days, I take a low dose once every 3 days, and on that day I don't take fish oil. Also, I take less than 2 gms of fish oil daily, and that oil is a combination of Omega 6 and 3 from Borage Oil and GLA, and Marine lipids and DHA.
Having said all that, when I get cut I bleed like a stuck pig. But bruising is not much of an issue at all. Bottom line: I wonder if the dosage you & Someday & maybe others take needs to be adjusted slightly?
-
11-19-2006, 03:35 AM #12Originally Posted by joed
Another thing to consider is that the older we get the more our underlying connective tissue breaks down. With that support getting "thinner" and with the addition of a thinning drug like aspirin, we bruise more easily. It's also why bruising, along with the medications that are taken, is a big problem with the elderly.
But that's why I also meniioned earlier about discussing with a doctor. Taking any medication over an extended period of time, even if it's an OTC product like aspirin, is not something to be done without supervision.
The dose should also be dependent on the "condition" and on your own particular needs. What works for one, may be undermedicating OR overmedicating for another. Which also means that even on a "baby dose" of aspirin - 81 mg - some will show bruising and some won't.
What really needs to be paid attention to is bruising that occurs without any known reason at all.
These kinds of issues also give me pause when it comes to supplements. I try not to start dumping things into my system just based on opinions that "it gave me massive pumps" or "tremendous gains in just weeks". It's an old lesson that I mentiond before - ANYTHING you take for a medicinal effect will come with side effects.
Just my .02Knocked down seven times, stand up eight.
-
-
11-19-2006, 04:29 AM #13
-
11-20-2006, 08:56 PM #14
- Join Date: Jun 2006
- Location: Westminster, California, United States
- Posts: 2,773
- Rep Power: 16453
My .02 is bruising like this doesn't have much to do with the blood itself or clotting factors. Rather, thinning the blood exposes deficits in the structural integrity of capillary tissue. Ruptured capillary beds only -and not any physical property of the blood itself - are what allow the blood to leak out into the surrounding tissue giving rise to the soft tissue bruising you describe. The fish oil and aspirin simply allow more blood to leak out before the repair process has taken effect. But the root of the problem is the integrity of those capillaries.
When you have a liquid under pressure in a closed system like our circulatory system, the thinner the viscosity of that fluid, the easier and quicker that fluid can breach the seals and weak spots of the system containing that liquid....which structurally speaking is always going to be at the capillary level, if not there's a medical emergency afoot (bruising vs. hemmorhaging)
So before ditching the aspiring/fish oill I'd suggest increasing your ascorbate (2-5 grams a day of vitamin C in any form) and bioflavanoid (500mg-1.5 g a day) intake and possibly adding in some dirt cheap vitamin K.
-
11-20-2006, 09:14 PM #15
-
11-21-2006, 05:45 AM #16Originally Posted by FlyingV
When you use a blood thinning medication like aspirin, you still sustain the damage but because the clotting is compromised by the anti-coagulant properties of the aspirin, bleeding continues longer than normal, more blood pools which leads to larger - and uglier - bruising.
Excessive bleeding from aspirin is a clinical fact and the bruising has as much to do with this side effect as the supporting connective tissue underneath.
I do agree that excessive bruising, exclusive of the use of blood thinning medications, is something to be concerned about. The elderly are very prone to bruising since they do suffer from the breakdown of underlying tissue - you can even bruise them by grabbing their arm too hard leaving purplish welts where fingers have dug in.
Originally Posted by FlyingV
Yet above you just *prescribed* Vitamin K which neutralizes the effects of the aspirin, increases clotting, and raises the risk level. Dangerous medicine unless you know exactly what you're playing with...Knocked down seven times, stand up eight.
-
-
11-21-2006, 08:16 AM #17
-
11-21-2006, 08:41 AM #18Originally Posted by FlyingV
Originally Posted by FlyingV
The aspirin acts as an anticoagulant, ie prevents or slows down blood clotting.
Vitamin K is essential for syntheszing the protein that aids in blood clotting.
Hear of Coumadin? That's a pretty heavy duty blood thinner - and usually when a patient is taking it, they're told to avoid dark, leafy, greens. Why? Because they're high in Vitamin K and would counteract the effects of the coumadin. One works against the other.
So I ask again - if you have a patient that is taking a medication specifically to reduce the possibility of clot formation, why would you prescribe a supplement (ie medication) that would enhance clotting?
Or am I missing your point....?Knocked down seven times, stand up eight.
-
07-12-2007, 01:27 PM #19
Need advice
I am 36 & going in for a heart cath for an apparent blockage or blockages. The cardiologist seems to think it is genetic & steroid related however I'm not completely sold on the steroid part. My question is will stents limit me in any way as far as weight training & cardio? Will I be able to do the same things that I use to? Any info will be appreciated. Thanks!
-
07-12-2007, 01:46 PM #20
- Join Date: Mar 2007
- Location: Minnesota, United States
- Age: 48
- Posts: 623
- Rep Power: 1264
Well have the angio first. At your age blockage isnt as likely as vasospasm causing angina unless your diet is horrible and have a bad genetic predisposition.
If you do get plastied and stents just follow their recommendations of taking it easy for a while and ease back into cardio. Your interventionalist will have all the info for you. Heavy weights will be out for a while for sure.
Good luck.
-
-
07-12-2007, 02:04 PM #21
-
07-12-2007, 02:42 PM #22
Not so sure, but maybe. I take 2 baby aspirin along with 1000mg fish oil and 1000mg flax seed oil. I don't think that I bruise anymore than if I didn't.
Last week I cut the end of my finger with my extremely sharp pocket knife and blead like crazy because I think it hit a vein. It healed completely in 5 days.
I dunno, everybody is different. But, with Plavix or similar drugs in addition, then yes, I can see it being a problem.Helping one person may not change the world, but it could change the world for one person.
-
07-12-2007, 02:46 PM #23
-
07-12-2007, 05:20 PM #24
RCO, thank you for breathing life into this old thread. I have some new info to add to my previous post in November. Like you, 6 wks ago I was being wheeled into the heart cath lab where they found a 90% blockage in a circumflex artery; a drug coated stent was inserted into the blockage. When I went home I started by walking (the same day) to the end of the block and back, & felt tired enough to lay down. I added a bit more each day & now I'm up to 30 mins 3X/day. As for lifting, I was told that I could return to the gym after a couple of wks but I should focus on LIGHT WEIGHTS and more reps, which I've done. At this point I'm almost totally back to where I had been.
In order for them to take you into the cath lab, you must've had angina or other symptoms. If there is a significant blockage, more then ~ 50%, it's likely they'll want to stent it or drill through it with the 'roto rooter'. Either way, I'd suggest from my experiences that you make sure your common sense overrules your enthusiasm when you get out of the hospital.
Snake, if you're around, want you to know that since my stent the bruising has increased tremendously. DK if it's from the plavix or the full dose aspirin, which has been decreased to 180 mg OD. The cardiac nurse practitioner thought it was more from the plavix. I'm only taking 1 gm of fish oil twice wkly now. Whatever it's from, the bruises come easily & they're big.Last edited by joed; 07-12-2007 at 08:37 PM.
-
-
07-12-2007, 06:24 PM #25
-
07-12-2007, 06:28 PM #26
The Plavix is probably the big offender but the combo of Plavix-aspirin-fish oil has a synergistic effect. I was surprised the doc gave you an ok jsut a few weeks out to go back to the gym with weights. I was told 6 months, then a stress test, and then into cardiac rehab, then into the gym. But then again, I had an MI and then was stented.
Since you've had a drug eluting (medicated) stent inserted, you'll probably be on Plavix indefinitely. There's an issue with how well these type of stents - as opposed to bare metal - are endothelizing in the arteries. My doc feels that in about 1-2 years, the science might say it's ok to come off the Plavix. But the fish oil and aspirin will always be part of the regimen.
As far as limitations with stents, this is more dependent on your general state of healh and medical history. I'm nearly 5 years out from my first stent, two years out from two other stents (also right circumflex). Doc says I'm probably in better shape now that when I first had the MI. His only request is I don't start looking to make personal bests in the gym - and to keep my heart rate no higher than about 145 bpm max.
Other than that, he said that I *must* be in the gym 3-5 times per week and probably more important than the meds!Knocked down seven times, stand up eight.
-
07-12-2007, 09:00 PM #27
Well you're younger than me so that probably explains it. As far as the plavix, it's one year, not "indefinitely". Endothelialization should be fine, as I'm cutting out all the unnecessary fats in my diet. Seems to me that if you had 2 more stents put in only 3 yrs after the first one, you're not doing everything right.
-
07-12-2007, 09:28 PM #28
Aspirin and Macular Degeneration -
I rarely take aspirin, but I thought I'd share what I read awhile back.
Aspirin it seems can be a serious contributor to Macular Degeneration of the eyes. It seems there is some problem with bleeding in the eye caused by the blood being thinned. So... I guess it means choosing between dying of a heartattack or being blind. There should be a workaround for this if you do have to take a blood thinner type drug like aspirin.
I've had some bruising similar to others in the thread when I combined the two, but I didn't realize that was the cause of the bruising. I'll sure be watching from here on.
Informative thread worth reading thats for sure.HST is my choice of training
http://www.hypertrophy-specific.com/index.html
-
-
07-13-2007, 04:27 AM #29
I don't know that age is the determining factor at this point - although I don't see your age listed. It normally takes from 6 months to a year for the stent to be fully integrated into the blood vessel. Until then, you're at risk. That's what I was told by my doc - opinions can differ.
Currently, there is conflicting information about the clotting risk of drug eluting stents. At minimum, it's been recommended that if this type of stent is used, Plavix should be prescribed for *at least* one year. The problem is that they're finding heightened clotting risk beyond the one year window compared to the bare metal stents. So there are cardiologists who are recommending that Plavix be continued until there's some more definitive clinical data. As I stated earlier, my cardiologist felt that within the next 1-2 years, we'll have that data and most likely we'll be able to stop the Plavix.
But he also feels until the debate is resolved, he wants to keep my risk of clotting that stent as low as possible.
As far as not doing everything right - the speculation is that what happened to me 3 years after my first stent was a plaque rupture - a break in the hardened plaque inside the artery that then clotted over and narrowed the artery. No one knows why this happens. It has nothing to with doing things right or wrong.
I also can't change genetics - not with diet, not with medication, not with supplements. My father died of heart disease in his early 50's, my sister has had heart problems beginning in her 50's that now necessitates her wearing a defibrillator. I'm in that familial age group now and trust me, I'm highly vigilant.
Therapy should be individualized to the patient. But where the science is conflicting, I'd rather err on the side of caution.Knocked down seven times, stand up eight.
-
07-13-2007, 07:19 AM #30
Bookmarks