Lateral Raises - The Triceps Kickback of Shoulder Exercises?

[oldmanmarley]

I think you'd all agree with me that the triceps kickback is one of the least respected exercises out there. Besides the fact that it involves the posterior deltoids quite a lot, I don't like it because it doesn't allow me to use a full range of motion and the most difficult part is at the top of the movement.
I've never really liked lateral raises for these same reasons, but continued to do them because, to be honest, I couldn't think of anything else to target the medial deltoids - sure, they get some stability work doing overhead presses, but that's not enough for me, and I like how they feel during upright rows, but I want one more exercise to isolate them.
So in an effort to overcome the limitations of poor range of motion and undesirable leverage that accompany the basic dumbell lateral raise, I'm considering substituting lying dumbell lateral raises (in which you lie sideways on an incline bench and raise the dumbbell from the front of your body to vertical) or cable lateral raises (which I've done in the past and didn't really like).
I'd like to know if anyone has the same sentements about lateral raises and if you think that lying lateral raises would target the medial deltoids better. Surely there is an optimal angle at which to lie in order to work the muscle best. Any discussion of this is welcome and appreciated.

[Mike750]

The lying lateral raise would compliment the standing version. Not necessarily better, just hits the delt a bit differently as far as strenght curve. Best to use both.

I personally like the lateral raise with dumbells and cables. I've also experimented with "L" raises which allow me the most weight.

To me, the ROM on laterals is fine. You're going from the sides to parallel to the floor (moving through 90 degs.). There are exercises with far less ROM that are both effective and some ineffective.

[Mike750]

BTW, I have not seen any topic on here in which EVERYBODY agrees with.

[Killa Cris]

I like both normal lateral raises and laying lateral raises.
If you want a pressing exercise for the lateral delts, try lying side presses.

[dparm99]

I'm a big fan of L lateral raises.

[oldmanmarley]

The lying lateral raise would compliment the standing version. Not necessarily better, just hits the delt a bit differently as far as strenght curve. Best to use both.

I personally like the lateral raise with dumbells and cables. I've also experimented with "L" raises which allow me the most weight.

To me, the ROM on laterals is fine. You're going from the sides to parallel to the floor (moving through 90 degs.). There are exercises with far less ROM that are both effective and some ineffective.

what are your thoughts on raising the dumbell above parallel to the floor (during lateral raises)?

I'm not a huge fan of L-raises because it seems like the benefit of the increased weight is negated by the fact that your elbows are bent.
Thanks for the insight.

[Mike750]

what are your thoughts on raising the dumbell above parallel to the floor (during lateral raises)?

I'm not a huge fan of L-raises because it seems like the benefit of the increased weight is negated by the fact that your elbows are bent.
Thanks for the insight.

Hmmm. Never really thought about it. I just let the arm go as high as the weight allows. Even sitting here with no weight, my arm only goes a few degrees higher, no big deal. I'd go as high as you can, but I'm not sure of how it would affect the joint or if the weight transfers to something else once past parallel. *shrugs*

[:::JMANN:::]

Hmmm. Never really thought about it. I just let the arm go as high as the weight allows. Even sitting here with no weight, my arm only goes a few degrees higher, no big deal. I'd go as high as you can, but I'm not sure of how it would affect the joint or if the weight transfers to something else once past parallel. *shrugs*

I think once you go past lateral it involves more of the traps at that point. Going above parallel isn't a bad way to get them involved too. With the lateral raises you can try different hand positions as well. Palms down, forward and up. These slight variations will hit the shoulders a little different each time. I do it when I do laterals, work pretty well IMO.

[JOHN GARGANI]

I'm not a huge fan of L-raises because it seems like the benefit of the increased weight is negated by the fact that your elbows are bent.

and just how is that negated???

bent arms is the CORRECT way to do the exercise, not straight armed....

in fact, if you are doing straight armed lateral raises, then, that explains your rant against them.

Lateral delts are not "just" a stabilizer in overhead pressing: military pressing, and benching at steeper angles will do more to build your overall delts than any type of lateral raise work.....

the best and biggest shoulders in the business were built mainly by pressing....

but Lateral raises are a very effective movement, along with bent over raises, providing your form is correct and in these movements, totally straight arms are not only ineffective but have more chance of injury than bent arms......


lying lateral raises, and cable lateral raises are wonderful accessory movements to keep blood in those lateral delts within the framework of a good shoulder workout, but if you are looking to add size to your lateral delts, besides pressing, then DB lateral raises are your best bet.

[oldmanmarley]

I think once you go past lateral it involves more of the traps at that point. Going above parallel isn't a bad way to get them involved too. With the lateral raises you can try different hand positions as well. Palms down, forward and up. These slight variations will hit the shoulders a little different each time. I do it when I do laterals, work pretty well IMO.

I've noticed this involvement of the traps too, but I can't imagine that it takes too much away from the delts.
In response to your comment about grip, I think it's more of an issue of which way the elbow is pointing - I've noticed that if the elbow points down, more of the anterior delts are used; if the elbow points back/slightly up, more of the medial deltoids are used.

[:::JMANN:::]

I've noticed this involvement of the traps too, but I can't imagine that it takes too much away from the delts.
In response to your comment about grip, I think it's more of an issue of which way the elbow is pointing - I've noticed that if the elbow points down, more of the anterior delts are used; if the elbow points back/slightly up, more of the medial deltoids are used.

Yeah how much it takes away really doesn't matter, cause you already used the delts to get it up to that point, so they are still involed, just couldn't say exactly how much past parallel would shift the stress. As far grip, it does turn the elbows obviously, and the idea is too hit it at all the angles. Palms facing out, elbows down does use more of the anterior IMO2. Just another way to hit the muscles.

[Mike750]

Regarding the "L" laterals vs. mostly straight armed version.

I've mostly done the straight (read:broken elbow bend) arm version since it placed the db directly in line with the delts for side delt work.

I always wondered when doing "L" raises, what is used to counter the torque of having the elbow at 90 degs.? That is to say, with the db in front of the elbow, what muscles are used to keep the db in position throughout the ROM, besides the side delt part of the lifting?

[Mesjac Pomsty]

I could never go past 15 for those lateral raises than I opened my mind and realized I won't get big/strong shoulders from lifting 10-15 lb dumbbells.

[Mike750]

I could never go past 15 for those lateral raises than I opened my mind and realized I won't get big/strong shoulders from lifting 10-15 lb dumbbells.

True enough, but remember, side laterals are a light exercise. Heavy is realative. With something small like the side delt, a little goes a long way. These are the slowest exercises for weight prgression. Just vary the rep ranges to try and boost intensity from time to time. Mostly work in the upper ranges, but go low (less than 5) every once in awhile.

[oldmanmarley]

and just how is that negated???

bent arms is the CORRECT way to do the exercise, not straight armed....

in fact, if you are doing straight armed lateral raises, then, that explains your rant against them.

Lateral delts are not "just" a stabilizer in overhead pressing: military pressing, and benching at steeper angles will do more to build your overall delts than any type of lateral raise work.....

the best and biggest shoulders in the business were built mainly by pressing....

but Lateral raises are a very effective movement, along with bent over raises, providing your form is correct and in these movements, totally straight arms are not only ineffective but have more chance of injury than bent arms......


lying lateral raises, and cable lateral raises are wonderful accessory movements to keep blood in those lateral delts within the framework of a good shoulder workout, but if you are looking to add size to your lateral delts, besides pressing, then DB lateral raises are your best bet.

Thanks for the input.

I do lateral raises with a very slight bend, but not the 90 degree angle at the elbow joint of the L-raise.
In response to your first question, it's leverage. If an object is closer to the fulcrum, it requires less force to move it. How else could you use more weight? I might even argue that slightly bent has an advantage over L-raises on the grounds that if a person were to reach failure, he/she could bend the elbows and get another rep or two.
I'd like to hear your thoughts on why an exercise with a greater range of motion (lying lateral raise) is inferior to one whose range of motion is shorter(traditional lateral raise). I don't have much knowledge about the anatomy of the shoulder - a fact that I'm sure you already suspected.

[Mike750]

Thanks for the input.

I do lateral raises with a very slight bend, but not the 90 degree angle at the elbow joint of the L-raise.
In response to your first question, it's leverage. If an object is closer to the fulcrum, it requires less force to move it. How else could you use more weight? I might even argue that slightly bent has an advantage over L-raises on the grounds that if a person were to reach failure, he/she could bend the elbows and get another rep or two.
I'd like to hear your thoughts on why an exercise with a greater range of motion is inferior to one whose range of motion is shorter. I don't have much knowledge about the anatomy of the shoulder - a fact that I'm sure you already suspected.

Is this going back to the above parallel thing?

[oldmanmarley]

Is this going back to the above parallel thing?

With respect to the lying lateral raise.
Basically I'm trying to figure out if there's an optimal angle to do the exercise at. Doing it lying on a side would have the most difficult part of the movement (i.e. the point at which the arm is parallel to the ground) at a more stretched position than the vertical version of the exercise. I want to know not only if this is better, but why/why not?

Thats an interesting question you had regarding compensation for the torque of the L-raise.

[Mike750]

With respect to the lying lateral raise.
Basically I'm trying to figure out if there's an optimal angle to do the exercise at. Doing it lying on a side would have the most difficult part of the movement (i.e. the point at which the arm is parallel to the ground) at a more stretched position than the vertical version of the exercise. I want to know not only if this is better, but why/why not?

Thats an interesting question you had regarding compensation for the torque of the L-raise.

Yeah, I wasn't sure if anyone would know what I was talking about. It got hard to explain as I started typing it.

I'd say, the 45 deg angle is optimal for the lying lateral. The only thing I'd say it's better for is building strength in a different part of the delt, much like cable laterals since the most tension is at the bottom with the db. As you get to perpendicular with these, the tension is lost much like the top of a db fly that's why it would be best to switch between the two if you use db's.

[John Prophet]

IMO some of this gets into needless hair splitting

of allllll the guys who ever had great side delts....they all only used a handful of exercises

95% of them used ONLY exercises from this list:

military press, press behind neck, db press, rainbow press (underrated), push press, upright rows (suck, IMO, lol), 'Arnold presses' (overrated IMO)

then basically from there..whats left for the side delt???? various laterals

there are at least dozens of different lateral raises...db, cable, machine....lying, standing, leaning, falling, upside down, inside out

why spend so much time worrying about which is the "best"? why break out the protractor to figure out the best angle??? face it, you are going to use various exercises and angles thruough your "career"....so just pick a few and get going

even if there were a "best" exercise, it will stop working in 6 weeks anyway, lol....at that point it is no longer "the best"



basically, you are going to do one pressing exercise or another in your workouts.....after that, if u want great side delts, you must become an expert at side laterals

[oldmanmarley]

Yeah, I wasn't sure if anyone would know what I was talking about. It got hard to explain as I started typing it.

I hope somebody can answer it. Maybe the muscles of the rotator cuff.
When I simulate it as I sit here pondering the answer, it feels like the posterior delt is contracting. (I'm holding my shoulder with one hand while pushing up on my desk with the back of the other hand.)

The only thing I'd say it's better for is building strength in a different part of the delt, much like cable laterals since the most tension is at the bottom with the db. As you get to perpendicular with these, the tension is lost much like the top of a db fly that's why it would be best to switch between the two if you use db's.

As you said earlier, it's difficult to get the arm more than a few degrees higher than the shoulders. (this is the case for me as well, unless I supinate my arm, pointing my elbow towards the ground - which shifts the stress to my anterior delts) I think this would take the idea of loss of tension at vertical out of the picture, unless the incline is very low.

Have you ever read anything (perhaps by Arnold about cheat curls) saying that an exercise is most effective when the most difficult part of the movement (i.e. parallel to the ground) is close to the stretched position? If this theory has any validity, then I think it would also apply to lateral raises.
What do you think?

[John Prophet]

Have you ever read anything (perhaps by Arnold about cheat curls) saying that an exercise is most effective when the most difficult part of the movement (i.e. parallel to the ground) is close to the stretched position? If this theory has any validity, then I think it would also apply to lateral raises.
What do you think?

you are thinking about "X-reps"......trust me...this was the farthest thing from Arnolds mind when he curled.....it is just some fancy thing someone thought of 30 years later

in Arnolds day they just thought of fast paced workouts with tons of volume using a wide variety of exercises


think about it....this stuff AINT that complicated....look at all the low iq knuckleheads carrying around tons of mass!! if it was rocket science only geeks would be big

[oldmanmarley]

IMO some of this gets into needless hair splitting

of allllll the guys who ever had great side delts....they all only used a handful of exercises

95% of them used ONLY exercises from this list:

military press, press behind neck, db press, rainbow press (underrated), push press, upright rows (suck, IMO, lol), 'Arnold presses' (overrated IMO)

then basically from there..whats left for the side delt???? various laterals

there are at least dozens of different lateral raises...db, cable, machine....lying, standing, leaning, falling, upside down, inside out

why spend so much time worrying about which is the "best"? why break out the protractor to figure out the best angle??? face it, you are going to use various exercises and angles thruough your "career"....so just pick a few and get going

even if there were a "best" exercise, it will stop working in 6 weeks anyway, lol....at that point it is no longer "the best"



basically, you are going to do one pressing exercise or another in your workouts.....after that, if u want great side delts, you must become an expert at side laterals

I see your point, and it sounds like good advice, but I'm interested in using whatever advantage I can. I started this thread because I thought I saw a mechanical inferiority in the exercise, and wanted to discuss it.

Are rainbow presses like dumbell flyes done overhead while seated? I think that's a great exercise.

[oldmanmarley]

think about it....this stuff AINT that complicated....look at all the low iq knuckleheads carrying around tons of mass!! if it was rocket science only geeks would be big

Very true, but isn't this what the exercise forum is for?

[John Prophet]

Are rainbow presses like dumbell flyes done overhead while seated? I think that's a great exercise.

I think you are thinking of 'Scott presses'...which could be really cool but I have never tried them....Larry Scott had narrow clavicles so he had to work xtra hard to get good side delts....and he finally did, he had some cannonballs


rainbow press is just basically a combo front/rear press....but u never lock out

you start in front of the neck...press it up just barely over the head and go back over the head and come down on the back side, lol...then press back up just over the head and come down on the front side

since you never lockout you keep good tension on the delts...QUITE a burn on that exercise

they are also called "Bradford presses"

[JOHN GARGANI]

I'd like to hear your thoughts on why an exercise with a greater range of motion (lying lateral raise) is inferior to one whose range of motion is shorter(traditional lateral raise).

because, what you will find out as you learn more about lifting, both from reading and from experience, is that in Bodybuilding, getting a full range of motion is NOT always the best way to make progress, meaning, add size.

remember, there is a big difference between lifting for atheletics and lifting for bodybuilding: bodybuilding is all about achieving a certain look and a certain response from the body, an exagerrated response to cause it to grow more muscle than it would normally want to grow.......

to do that requires tricking or fooling the body, and part and parcel of that in many movements is LIMITING the movement to that portion of which more fully stimulates the belly of the muscle, more specifically, the intended muscle.

[JOHN GARGANI]

BTW: referring to Larry Scott, he has a very focused way of doing lateral raises, and it involves bending forward slightly, and with both bent arms and a certain turning of the wrist, as the arms go up in the movement.....


you can find more information about it on his website, but what is really the best is to actually watch him do it on his DVD......

[John Prophet]

side laterals dont compare to triceps kickbacks at all

why not??

because there are 9 million better tricep exercises out there......but there arent 9 million better side delt exercises

[JOHN GARGANI]

because there are 9 million better tricep exercises out there......but there arent 9 million better side delt exercises

great point!

[Mike750]

Have you ever read anything (perhaps by Arnold about cheat curls) saying that an exercise is most effective when the most difficult part of the movement (i.e. parallel to the ground) is close to the stretched position? If this theory has any validity, then I think it would also apply to lateral raises.
What do you think?

I've been a fan of exercises that use the stretched position at the bottom, but I never likened that to side delts. I can stretch my side delts way further than any effective exercise will take it.

I stick with db flys and SLDL's and such for the weighted stretch movements.

[John Prophet]

Milos Sarcev made some good arguments for cable side laterals on one of those webcast vids.....pointing out that they keep tension on all the way at the bottom etc

even though I generally make fun of cables, if one has used dumbells for years, then obviously goign to cables would be a fresh stimulus