compound exercises: y so superior?

[B.b. in stress!]

yet another overthinking question of mine...

just needed an explanation on y they were superior to isolatoin movements. I know that they involve more muscle involvemet, but just dont understand how they increase mass and strength.

help needed! thx

[NoNameNecessary]

I do not believe in training muscle groups, or body parts. The body is made as a whole unit that is supposed to function together. Why would you want to work individual muscle groups rather than the whole body? What isolation movements result in is more time spent in the gym, and you are sure to train certain body parts harder/more than others, leaving other body parts left somewhere behind, in the dust. However, when focusing on the compound movements, your whole body will gain strength and mass, as a whole, as it was intended to be.

[moochems]

One reason: they hit everything. When you squat, you aren't just using your quads, like in knee extensions. You will use almost your whole body.

Another reason: Usually compounds are your heaviest lifts, so if you take the above reason into consideration with this one, you can see that not only do you hit everything wiht compounds, but you hit everything harder.

That and the whole practical strenght thing...

[A-rod]

Ditto to the above posts !

[Dominik]

yet another overthinking question of mine...

just needed an explanation on y they were superior to isolatoin movements. I know that they involve more muscle involvemet, but just dont understand how they increase mass and strength.

Try to think of it in two ways:

1. You're multitasking. Instead of doing front raises, triceps extensions, and flyes, you can grab a bar and press it above your chest. Same muscles involved: more work done in less time.

2. You're eliciting a greater training effect. Doing a few sets of biceps curls is not going to send the same message to the body as grinding out some heavy deadlifts. This is what ultimately triggers more growth since the body grows as a whole. You want maximum growth: blast the entire body.

[Dominik]

Btw, I'm not anti-isolation however you've got to put certain things in perspective. A lot of people prefer to do isolation work because it's easier. You can't compare doing DB laterals to standing military press, or curls to weighted chins, or leg curls and extensions to squats... the list goes on. I think that's the #1 reason why isos are so popular at the expense of compounds.

Another reason is some people can't see the forest for the trees. They see a bunch of "weak points" without realizing their entire body is a weak point. Rather than attempt to bring the whole body up with squats, deads, rows, presses, chins, dips, etc., they jump on the isolation merry-go-round and hope for the best. Anyway, it's not hard to build a pair of arms that stand out if the rest of your body is poorly developed.

[B.b. in stress!]

although im still confused, i kinda understand it a little more.

so the reason y they build more strength and size is because:
-more energy expenditure due to more muscles work

still need more explanation. thx for all the replies though

[MoGeaYuglay]

Btw, I'm not anti-isolation however you've got to put certain things in perspective. A lot of people prefer to do isolation work because it's easier. You can't compare doing DB laterals to standing military press, or curls to weighted chins, or leg curls and extensions to squats... the list goes on. I think that's the #1 reason why isos are so popular at the expense of compounds.

Another reason is some people can't see the forest for the trees. They see a bunch of "weak points" without realizing their entire body is a weak point. Rather than attempt to bring the whole body up with squats, deads, rows, presses, chins, dips, etc., they jump on the isolation merry-go-round and hope for the best. Anyway, it's not hard to build a pair of arms that stand out if the rest of your body is poorly developed.

I tell anyone that wants me to help train them that they need only 7 exercises to start with until they develop a solid base:
Deadlift
Squat
Incline Bench Press (BB or DB)
Weighted Chins
Weighted Dips
Military Press (BB or DB)
BB Rows (At the wise behest of other forum members, besides, these rock, i'm sad I forgot them in the masterlist)

These are the vital exercises, the staples of any routine, they are the meat and potatos. Isolation movements are but the gravy.

[slippy]

To add to Dom's list . . .

3) Ultimately, what makes you grow is load progression. The more load progression steps available to you, the more useful that exercise can be for you. Compound movements offer more granular and flexible progression, and therefore will make you grow faster as a whole.

5) By corrolary, isolation movements are only useful once a strength foundation has been created by compound movements, and can only continue to be useful if resistance is progressive. Load progression is best sustained through compound movements.

6) Due to stretch-related ROM, compound movements are generally superior anyway to stimulating localized muscles than isolation movements. For example, because leg extensions limit ROM against stretch, squats are actually better at stimulating quad growth, even though overall neural drive/EMG scores and recruitment patterns are lower.

7) This is not well-known, but not only does stabilization (which is by default higher with compound movements) increase overall MU recruitment, but it increases the effective peak tension in the primary mover by way of increasing rate coding. What this mean, in English, is that if you hold the ROM absolutely constant, the 10RM squat will generate more microtrauma than the 10RM leg press, and both will generate more microtrauma than the 10RM leg extension.

8) Although modern bodybuilding aesthetics WAY overemphasizes chest and biceps size, for the most part, that look still claims lineage to the strongmen tradition going back 100 years. A bit top heavy now, but the essence is still the same. And this look is best achieved, not by isolation movements ad nausem or concentration of the bench, but by rowing, chinning, pulling, and deadlifting yourself into oblivion.

9) Nothing is sexier to a woman than a guy who does ATG squats.

[JOHN GARGANI]

B.b. : you certainly ARE in distress!!!

you have over 1200 posts on this forum, and you don't understand how compound movements can build strength and mass??????

better yet, you are confused???????

I'm sorry, but it seems to me that you are spending too much time trying to understand and not be confused, where if you were spending that time DOING THESE MOVEMENTS, you might not be as "confused" as to what they can do to your body!!!!!!!

[Dominik]

To add to Dom's list . . .

I could have come up with maybe a couple more if asked, but not 6. Nice work

You make a good point about load progression and that's why I think it's silly when people obsess over weight being used on curls, pushdowns, flyes, laterals, etc. So long as the numbers on the big lifts are going up you'll make progress. Isolation exercises make a great icing on a cake but they're not foundation material. So after you've blasted your back and bis with rows and weighted chins, there's no harm grabbing a barbell and doing some curls to finish them off.

Unfortunately that approach is often avoided because the heavy compounds negatively affect the amount of weight that can be used on the isos, which ties in with the earlier point that the weight on the isos should not be a priority so long as it's within an effective range. So if those people would stop caring about how much they curl for example, they could use them more effectively and still make compounds a priority. However, so long as they do care about how much they can curl or pushdown, they'll continue having dedicated arm days and squeeze out important compounds to make way for those isolation exercises.

[W8isGR8]

I tell anyone that wants me to help train them that they need only 6 exercises to start with until they develop a solid base:
Deadlift
Squat
Incline Bench Press (BB or DB)
Weighted Chins
Weighted Dips
Military Press (BB or DB)

Sticky this ****!!!!

[B.b. in stress!]

B.b. : you certainly ARE in distress!!!

you have over 1200 posts on this forum, and you don't understand how compound movements can build strength and mass??????

better yet, you are confused???????

I'm sorry, but it seems to me that you are spending too much time trying to understand and not be confused, where if you were spending that time DOING THESE MOVEMENTS, you might not be as "confused" as to what they can do to your body!!!!!!!

dude, who says i didn't do compound exercises?

i only do iso exercises like for 2 sets each workout

i was just taught that they were superior and based upon the results ive been getting, i can infer that that was true. however, i never scientifically understood WHY they were superior.

[DiamondDelts]

dude, who says i didn't do compound exercises?

i only do iso exercises like for 2 sets each workout

i was just taught that they were superior and based upon the results ive been getting, i can infer that that was true. however, i never scientifically understood WHY they were superior.

Do you refuse to get into a car until you know how it works down to the last piston. Do you need to know why a mercedes is better than a hyundai before you drive one?

[DiamondDelts]

B.b. : you certainly ARE in distress!!!

you have over 1200 posts on this forum, and you don't understand how compound movements can build strength and mass??????

better yet, you are confused???????

I'm sorry, but it seems to me that you are spending too much time trying to understand and not be confused, where if you were spending that time DOING THESE MOVEMENTS, you might not be as "confused" as to what they can do to your body!!!!!!!

Exactly. I could not have said it better myself. 1,200 posts on a bodybuilding site. This guy should be a veteran already. Yet, he seems to still be confused on the mere basics.

[Tyrbolift]

better yet, you are confused???????

I'm sorry, but it seems to me that you are spending too much time trying to understand and not be confused, where if you were spending that time DOING THESE MOVEMENTS, you might not be as "confused" as to what they can do to your body!!!!!!!

^^^^ *applause*

[DiamondDelts]

^^^^ *applause*

LBD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!LBD! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

With John as our new spokesman, we WILL be heard! Our message shall spread across the oceans to every corner of this earth. People need to stop theorizing about exercises on the computer and get out there and do 'em. Get er' done!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Dominik]

No need to dump **** on the guy though. He's still only 17 and has plenty of time to learn what works and what doesn't and fine-tune his training. I'll be honest, for maybe 6 months starting out I had no clue why I was doing certain exercises, I just did them. Why was I doing DB shoulder press, then military press on the smith, and then front raises? I can't tell you.

I know what I'm doing now, but back then it was a case of trying to hit everything from every possible angle, 3 sets of 8-10 on everything, and hope for the best. Compounds, isolations, they were all mixed together without a lot of thought involved. Now some people here would probably tell me I overanalyze it and I should just "shut up and lift." What a difference a couple of years can make. He's got plenty of time to work it all out.

[iron619]

I tell anyone that wants me to help train them that they need only 6 exercises to start with until they develop a solid base:
Deadlift
Squat
Incline Bench Press (BB or DB)
Weighted Chins
Weighted Dips
Military Press (BB or DB)

Good, good, good. But also include a horizontal pulling exercise (any bent-over or seated row, DB/BB row...).

[Dominik]

Good, good, good. But also include a horizontal pulling exercise (any bent-over or seated row, DB/BB row...).

Agreed. Gotta have some rows in there.

[DiamondDelts]

No need to dump **** on the guy though. He's still only 17 and has plenty of time to learn what works and what doesn't and fine-tune his training. I'll be honest, for maybe 6 months starting out I had no clue why I was doing certain exercises, I just did them. Why was I doing DB shoulder press, then military press on the smith, and then front raises? I can't tell you.

I know what I'm doing now, but back then it was a case of trying to hit everything from every possible angle, 3 sets of 8-10 on everything, and hope for the best. Compounds, isolations, they were all mixed together without a lot of thought involved. Now some people here would probably tell me I overanalyze it and I should just "shut up and lift." What a difference a couple of years can make. He's got plenty of time to work it all out.

True. But............................................... ....................................teens now have much MORE info readily available to them than what I had growing up. We had to go to the library using a dusty old card catalog to search for info. Then it took hours and hours of searching through chapters of various bodybuilding books to find bits and pieces of pertinent information that we could actually use.

All the kids have to do nowadays is go to Barnes and Noble or come online here. All the answers are readily spelled out for them.

[Dominik]

True. But............................................... ....................................teens now have much MORE info readily available to them than what I had growing up. We had to go throught library using a dusty old card catalog to search for info. Then it took hours and hours of searching through chapters of various bodybuilding books to find bits and pieces of pertinent information.

All the kids have to do nowadays is go to barnes and Noble or come online here. All the answers are readily spelled out for them.

I agree, and the internet has definitely made it a lot easier to learn stuff--for free. I went to the source and bought a bunch of books which turned out to be a good investment but even for free guys can learn a lot. But then maybe that's another issue: information overload. So they come here to try and make sense of it all and we tell them to go away and experiment.

There's obviously a lot of noob hate at the moment but I think back to what I was like when I started and I'm glad I didn't come online to ask questions because I would have been flamed to hell. You were probably the same. Some people are just too impatient to experiment or read books so they ask a lot of questions. No big deal though, we can just tell them to use the search or skip their posts. I remember W8 asked quite a few questions early on and there was the odd thread where he was flamed, but look at how much the guy knows. So the "noobs" being flamed today might be the guys we're all learning from in the future.

[DiamondDelts]

I agree, and the internet has definitely made it a lot easier to learn stuff--for free. I went to the source and bought a bunch of books which turned out to be a good investment but even for free guys can learn a lot. But then maybe that's another issue: information overload. So they come here to try and make sense of it all and we tell them to go away and experiment.

There's obviously a lot of noob hate at the moment but I think back to what I was like when I started and I'm glad I didn't come online to ask questions because I would have been flamed to hell. You were probably the same. Some people are just too impatient to experiment or read books so they ask a lot of questions. No big deal though, we can just tell them to use the search or skip their posts. I remember W8 asked quite a few questions early on and there was the odd thread where he was flamed, but look at how much the guy knows. So the "noobs" being flamed today might be the guys we're all learning from in the future.

Point well made. I remember back in the days I thought behind the back upright rows was primarily working the lats. Ha,ha,! And you are right about DUB-8. His mental progress is light years from where it was when I first met him online here. And he's a lot less honorary as well.

[Lion Heart]

I've found in my lifetime that those with the best physiques are those who do a mixture of compounds, isolation, free weights, machines, and direct work of the muscle groups i.e. still working tri's even though they've worked chest.

I've seen many guys on here during all my years that have very impressive lifts......but would be lucky to even get a second look at a competition.

It's more than just having a 500 squat or 400 bench, it's about having a complete physique, and very few can get there by relying only on compounds.

[DiamondDelts]

I've found in my lifetime that those with the best physiques are those who do a mixture of compounds, isolation, free weights, machines, and direct work of the muscle groups i.e. still working tri's even though they've worked chest.

I've seen many guys on here during all my years that have very impressive lifts......but would be lucky to even get a second look at a competition.

It's more than just having a 500 squat or 400 bench, it's about having a complete physique, and very few can get there by relying only on compounds.

Another soul stirring post that is right on the money. Repped.

[spirit3530]

I've found in my lifetime that those with the best physiques are those who do a mixture of compounds, isolation, free weights, machines, and direct work of the muscle groups i.e. still working tri's even though they've worked chest.

I've seen many guys on here during all my years that have very impressive lifts......but would be lucky to even get a second look at a competition.

It's more than just having a 500 squat or 400 bench, it's about having a complete physique, and very few can get there by relying only on compounds.

That is my mantra....RACK HIM.

[DiamondDelts]

That is my mantra....RACK HIM.

I hear ya. It's all about TEAMWORK when it comes to bodybuilding. The biggest guys I know always use a mixture of compounds, machines, cables, and smith machine exercises. They also use both high and low volumes along with varying grip widths etc. That is the true essence of bodybuilding.

Using all of these tools as a team to build chisel out a physique out of a base which simpler methods such as low volume compound only workouts might have built. I just don't understand why so many people cannot understand that. They get so caught up in the "all one way or nothing" or "vs" mentality that they cannot seem to understand this. It's about teamwork of using all these tools together to create a COMPLETE physique. Not by using only one element and blindly sticking to it.

[Fallen_Horse]

Anybody have a link to a site that will show exactly which muscles compound exercises work?

For example, squats work not just your quads, but what else do they work, exactly?

[Dominik]

I've found in my lifetime that those with the best physiques are those who do a mixture of compounds, isolation, free weights, machines, and direct work of the muscle groups i.e. still working tri's even though they've worked chest.

I've seen many guys on here during all my years that have very impressive lifts......but would be lucky to even get a second look at a competition.

It's more than just having a 500 squat or 400 bench, it's about having a complete physique, and very few can get there by relying only on compounds.

Good points. But then it all comes down to priorities. If you're even thinking about competing chances are you've already got a decent physique so devoting time to building the perfect set of pecs with a truckload of chest exercises can be justified.

I'll speak for myself and say it's something I've never argued here. If you're a competing BBer or pro, isolation work is non-negotiable. But how many guys are at that level? There are a lot more who haven't laid a decent foundation down yet. The guys who have 10+ years under their belts, the DDs, the Atrainers, the Defiants, they can all do whatever they like. Noobs don't have that freedom.

[lucious]

Well, heres my 2c.


Compounds make up the framework of any weight lifting routine. Be it powerlifting, bodybuilding, athletic training, endurance....compounds should be your priority, only thing you should alter would be rep ranges for your desired goal. Compounds build mass and strength first and foremost, a heavy set of squats is going to take down 75% of the muscles in your body, the reaction is going to be huge. Incredible release of growth hormone, increased CNS capability, improved core strength, coordination, endurance, muscular power increases....so many wonderful things that come with the compounds that iso's wont do. The body was meant to function as a whole and when you work it with compounds this is when it will elicit the greatest response. I include isolations in my routine because I feel they can be handy to really hit a muscle on top of what the compounds do, but compounds first always.