** Androgenic's review of 17-HD **

[Androgenic]

I will explain how this product bothers me on an unparalleled scale. It is what is wrong with the industry. Shawn Ray uses it…hmm. This product is deceptive, trying to sound like a prohormone or even a potent steroid. The company has stated they did not decide on the name or try and be deceptive it was what the “scientist” (seriously) named it...so that's what they went with...HAHAHA! Even if they have a "scientist" of some sort, which they probably don't, that guy is not in control of their financial fate in the naming/marketing/advertising of the product.

17-HD (17-Halo-Methyl-Dianadrone): To review the choice of name here, by marketing NOT SCIENCE…let’s review.

1.)17 – As is c17a, the 17th carbon at the alpha position is where anabolic steroids have their potency and toxicity and often is where a methyl group is as attached.
2.)Halo – Besides being a great X-Box game, it is another group of steroids such as the popular halotestin, also halodrol is quite popular in the prohormone world.
3.)Methyl – See #1. Also – see buzz word of the year (#2 is ethyl ester)
4.)Dianadrone – Diana(bol) aka methandrostenolone, comes pretty close to hitting the whole 17-HD name is one fall swoop.
5.)17-HD, or 17-Halo-Methyl-Dianadrone, sounds like a chemical compound doesn’t it? Sounds like one heck of a methylated potent oral steroid. Right?

Guess what? It’s not. Matter of fact it’s just a bunch of herbs. I’d say this is pretty deceptive so far, but lets get into the useless or even counterproductive part.


Here is the ingredients according to the write-up:

17- Halo-Methyl-Dianadrone: 400mg
Ge Gan (pueraria lobota)
Smilax Officinalis
N.O. Oliliacae

Betaecdysterone 100mg
Wild yam extract 100mg
Glabra 100mg
Phosphatidyl choline 50mg
Citric acid 50mg

__________________________________________________ ________________
We'll start with wild yam and go from there.
Wild Yam is great at regulating estrogen...there's a potent benefit! And I will quote:

"Wild yam has been used for menstrual cramps or pain, menopausal symptoms, rheumatic conditions, and gallbladder complaints. Wild yam is sometimes suggested as an alternative to hormone replacement therapy. While components of wild yam are chemically manufactured into the hormones progesterone or estrogen, the body is unable to use wild yam in the same way."
http://www.drugs.com/MTM/wild_yam.html

__________________________________________________ ________________________________
Ge Gen is aka kudzu and I quote:

"Chemicals extracted from kudzu include isoflavones known as daidzein, daidzin, genistein, and puerarin. Isoflavones are plant chemicals that have estrogenic and antioxidant effects."
http://www.drugdigest.org/DD/DVH/Her...Ge+Gen,00.html

__________________________________________________ ________________________________

How 'bout Smilax? Let's go for the trifecta shall we? Smilax officinalis is also known as sarsparilla.
I'll quote again...

"In the United States, sarsaparilla is sold primarily as an oral remedy for skin conditions such as psoriasis. It is believed that chemicals in sarsaparilla may attach to endotoxins (the remnants of bacterial cells) that are common in individuals with psoriasis and certain other conditions. By eliminating or reducing the amounts of endotoxins in the body, sarsaparilla may help to relieve the condition.

Orally, sarsaparilla also has weak diuretic and laxative effects, which may make it useful in promoting the loss of excess water from the body and also in treating mild constipation. It may also promote sweating, which may help to reduce fever. Additionally, sarsaparilla contains chemicals that may act as a mild expectorant – a substance that may loosen bronchial mucus and promote coughing. However, none of these effects has been verified through clinical studies and they may vary greatly depending on the amounts and type of sarsaparilla that is used. "
http://www.drugdigest.org/DD/DVH/Her...inalis,00.html
__________________________________________________ ________________________________
Hmm...well we've established it raises estrogen, has laxative effects...is there anything else this miracle supplement can do for me you ask?

Well I am glad you asked...Glabra is cute renaming (as every ingredient is and the product itself) of Glycyrrhiza glabra, aka Licorice. Licorice you say? Yes, THE ultimate bodybuilding supplement. And I will quote:

"Licorice is also a mild laxative. Large doses of glycyrrhizinic acid and glycyrrhetinic acid in liquorice extract can lead to hypokalemia and serious increases in blood pressure, a syndrome known as apparent mineralocorticoid excess. These side effects stem from the inhibition of the enzyme 11β-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase (type 2) and subsequent increase in activity of cortisol on the kidney. 11β-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase normally inactivates cortisol in the kidney; thus, licorice's inactivation of this enzyme makes the concentration of cortisol appear to increase. Cortisol acts at the same receptor as the hormone aldosterone in the kidney; thus, the effects mimic aldosterone excess, although aldosterone remains low or normal during licorice overdose. Cortisol does not actually increase either; however, its activity in the kidney effectively increases due to the disabling of this enzyme. To decrease the chances of these serious side effects, deglycyrrhizinated licorice (DGL) preparations are available.

Licorice affects the body's endocrine system. It can lower the amount of serum testosterone, but whether it affects the amount of free testosterone is unclear. A PubMed search for licorice AND testosterone will provide additional information."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Licorice

Well, cool, Licorice decrease testosterone, increases blood pressure and may increase catabolic hormones. Oh yeah, and again its a laxative.
__________________________________________________ ________________________________

So lets tally up the results: we got elevated estrogen, decreased testosterone, increased cortisol, increased blood pressure, and 2 laxatives.

Lastly, there is one ingredient listed that, in fact, does not exist…so I can’t tell you what it is other than it is an herb. N.O. (sounds like Nitric Oxide – Buzz Word!) Olilicae. Sorry. Given the collective data one WHAT IS IN THERE, I wouldn’t hope for much.

Well the only thing of benefit I see here is the 50mg of Vitamin C (citric acid), which doesn't even meet the lowly RDA. Sweet formulation. Really.

Good luck to anyone who uses this. The supplement industry loves you.

[Kohen_Gadol]

Originally Posted by Androgenic

I will explain how this product bothers me on an unparalleled scale. It is what is wrong with the industry. Shawn Ray uses it…hmm. This product is deceptive, trying to sound like a prohormone or even a potent steroid. The company has stated they did not decide on the name or try and be deceptive it was what the “scientist” (seriously) named it...so that's what they went with...HAHAHA! Even if they have a "scientist" of some sort, which they probably don't, that guy is not in control of their financial fate in the naming/marketing/advertising of the product.

17-HD (17-Halo-Methyl-Dianadrone): To review the choice of name here, by marketing NOT SCIENCE…let’s review.

1.)17 – As is c17a, the 17th carbon at the alpha position is where anabolic steroids have their potency and toxicity and often is where a methyl group is as attached.
2.)Halo – Besides being a great X-Box game, it is another group of steroids such as the popular halotestin, also halodrol is quite popular in the prohormone world.
3.)Methyl – See #1. Also – see buzz word of the year (#2 is ethyl ester)
4.)Dianadrone – Diana(bol) aka methandrostenolone, comes pretty close to hitting the whole 17-HD name is one fall swoop.
5.)17-HD, or 17-Halo-Methyl-Dianadrone, sounds like a chemical compound doesn’t it? Sounds like one heck of a methylated potent oral steroid. Right?

Guess what? It’s not. Matter of fact it’s just a bunch of herbs. I’d say this is pretty deceptive so far, but lets get into the useless or even counterproductive part.


Here is the ingredients according to the write-up:

17- Halo-Methyl-Dianadrone: 400mg
Ge Gan (pueraria lobota)
Smilax Officinalis
N.O. Oliliacae

Betaecdysterone 100mg
Wild yam extract 100mg
Glabra 100mg
Phosphatidyl choline 50mg
Citric acid 50mg

__________________________________________________ ________________
We'll start with wild yam and go from there.
Wild Yam is great at regulating estrogen...there's a potent benefit! And I will quote:

"Wild yam has been used for menstrual cramps or pain, menopausal symptoms, rheumatic conditions, and gallbladder complaints. Wild yam is sometimes suggested as an alternative to hormone replacement therapy. While components of wild yam are chemically manufactured into the hormones progesterone or estrogen, the body is unable to use wild yam in the same way."
http://www.drugs.com/MTM/wild_yam.html

__________________________________________________ ________________________________
Ge Gen is aka kudzu and I quote:

"Chemicals extracted from kudzu include isoflavones known as daidzein, daidzin, genistein, and puerarin. Isoflavones are plant chemicals that have estrogenic and antioxidant effects."
http://www.drugdigest.org/DD/DVH/Her...Ge+Gen,00.html

__________________________________________________ ________________________________

How 'bout Smilax? Let's go for the trifecta shall we? Smilax officinalis is also known as sarsparilla.
I'll quote again...

"In the United States, sarsaparilla is sold primarily as an oral remedy for skin conditions such as psoriasis. It is believed that chemicals in sarsaparilla may attach to endotoxins (the remnants of bacterial cells) that are common in individuals with psoriasis and certain other conditions. By eliminating or reducing the amounts of endotoxins in the body, sarsaparilla may help to relieve the condition.

Orally, sarsaparilla also has weak diuretic and laxative effects, which may make it useful in promoting the loss of excess water from the body and also in treating mild constipation. It may also promote sweating, which may help to reduce fever. Additionally, sarsaparilla contains chemicals that may act as a mild expectorant – a substance that may loosen bronchial mucus and promote coughing. However, none of these effects has been verified through clinical studies and they may vary greatly depending on the amounts and type of sarsaparilla that is used. "
http://www.drugdigest.org/DD/DVH/Her...inalis,00.html
__________________________________________________ ________________________________
Hmm...well we've established it raises estrogen, has laxative effects...is there anything else this miracle supplement can do for me you ask?

Well I am glad you asked...Glabra is cute renaming (as every ingredient is and the product itself) of Glycyrrhiza glabra, aka Licorice. Licorice you say? Yes, THE ultimate bodybuilding supplement. And I will quote:

"Licorice is also a mild laxative. Large doses of glycyrrhizinic acid and glycyrrhetinic acid in liquorice extract can lead to hypokalemia and serious increases in blood pressure, a syndrome known as apparent mineralocorticoid excess. These side effects stem from the inhibition of the enzyme 11β-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase (type 2) and subsequent increase in activity of cortisol on the kidney. 11β-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase normally inactivates cortisol in the kidney; thus, licorice's inactivation of this enzyme makes the concentration of cortisol appear to increase. Cortisol acts at the same receptor as the hormone aldosterone in the kidney; thus, the effects mimic aldosterone excess, although aldosterone remains low or normal during licorice overdose. Cortisol does not actually increase either; however, its activity in the kidney effectively increases due to the disabling of this enzyme. To decrease the chances of these serious side effects, deglycyrrhizinated licorice (DGL) preparations are available.

Licorice affects the body's endocrine system. It can lower the amount of serum testosterone, but whether it affects the amount of free testosterone is unclear. A PubMed search for licorice AND testosterone will provide additional information."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Licorice

Well, cool, Licorice decrease testosterone, increases blood pressure and may increase catabolic hormones. Oh yeah, and again its a laxative.
__________________________________________________ ________________________________

So lets tally up the results: we got elevated estrogen, decreased testosterone, increased cortisol, increased blood pressure, and 2 laxatives.

Lastly, there is one ingredient listed that, in fact, does not exist…so I can’t tell you what it is other than it is an herb. N.O. (sounds like Nitric Oxide – Buzz Word!) Olilicae. Sorry. Given the collective data one WHAT IS IN THERE, I wouldn’t hope for much.

Well the only thing of benefit I see here is the 50mg of Vitamin C (citric acid), which doesn't even meet the lowly RDA. Sweet formulation. Really.

Good luck to anyone who uses this. The supplement industry loves you.

Why after reading this do I feel like "The Emperor" as he is about to turn Jedi Knight Anakin Skywalker into Darth Vader?

EXCELLENT READ and right on the money as usual, Shaun.

BK

[BillyB]

*clap, clap, clap*

[Androgenic]

Cute BK. Are you asking me to join the dark side?

Oh and it just came to what the olilacae ingredient is, I believe. At least this is my best guess. The latin genus name for lilacs. Of which, olive tree is oleacae...liliacae oleacae. Again, SWEEEEET.

[SupaNatural]

Excellent read, Shawn.

[UberBerzerker]

awesome info. well done.


is this going to be an ongoing campaign to weed out some of the bull**** products of this industry?

[nni]

screw you angrogenic, i will continue to supplement with sweet potatoes and twizzlers, ill be huge, youll see!!!!!!

negged!!!!

[warriors]

*writes down to never get on andro's bad side*


Nice read

[Androgenic]

Originally Posted by nni

screw you angrogenic, i will continue to supplement with sweet potatoes and twizzlers, ill be huge, youll see!!!!!!

negged!!!!

Angrogenic...I like that. Don't make me angry, you don't want to see me when I am angry.

[getbustered]

Wow, and it's only $71.99 here for 60 caps (I had to look after I read this). Sign me up for two!

Excellent post.

[Kohen_Gadol]

Originally Posted by Androgenic

Cute BK. Are you asking me to join the dark side?

Oh and it just came to what the olilacae ingredient is, I believe. At least this is my best guess. The latin genus name for lilacs. Of which, olive tree is oleacae...liliacae oleacae. Again, SWEEEEET.

There are many paths opened to you by using the dark and light side of the force. But as a Jedi...you will never know this

You must have balance. Together we can find a way to save the industry.

Have you ever heard the tragic story of Darth Patrick the Wise?

BK

[nni]

Originally Posted by Androgenic

Angrogenic...I like that. Don't make me angry, you don't want to see me when I am angry.

it was actually a typo, but i take full credit!!!!

[Androgenic]

Originally Posted by UberBerzerker

awesome info. well done.


is this going to be an ongoing campaign to weed out some of the bull**** products of this industry?

Maybe. I've thought about going straight through bb.com's top 50...for better or for worse, since they're the most popular. Not sure. DWM230000 did an incredible thread on proprietary blends that really took a great deal of time and effort. It is a great read. http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=649355

We've discussed combining forces and doing a supplement review book, but that'd take a lot of time.

[dwm230000]

Originally Posted by Kohen_Gadol

EXCELLENT READ and right on the money as usual

Agreed. Great post, Shawn.

[Androgenic]

Originally Posted by Kohen_Gadol

There are many paths opened to you by using the dark and light side of the force. But as a Jedi...you will never know this

You must have balance. Together we can find a way to save the industry.

Have you ever heard the tragic story of Darth Patrick the Wise?

BK

BK, if you only knew how big of a star wars fan I am. I have a "Dark Side" Star Wars PC by Alienware. Yes, I am geek. A 250 pound, 6'3" geek that likes to lift, but a geek all the same. http://www.alienware.com/starwars_pages/awswaurora.aspx

The last line is oh so witty!

[nni]

i think i read about his story in sports illustrated.

[Lanbane]

That is a quality post I will admit. But have any of you tried 17-HD? I'm not a Vyotech fan, but that stuff is the BOMB!
Find it for around $32-35/bottle and give it a try. Well worth every cent.

[UberBerzerker]

Originally Posted by Lanbane

That is a quality post I will admit. But have any of you tried 17-HD? I'm not a Vyotech fan, but that stuff is the BOMB!
Find it for around $32-35/bottle and give it a try. Well worth every cent.

I tried several packets of it that I was sent for free by the vyotech rep - I didn't notice anything from it.

[Kohen_Gadol]

Originally Posted by Androgenic

BK, if you only knew how big of a star wars fan I am. I have a "Dark Side" Star Wars PC by Alienware. Yes, I am geek. A 250 pound, 6'3" geek that likes to lift, but a geek all the same. http://www.alienware.com/starwars_pages/awswaurora.aspx

The last line is oh so witty!

Must...resist...temptaton to hijack thread!!!

I like Star Wars because the sword play is pretty much a rip off of the kata from Kendo and the solo forms from Iaido.

Basically, you have kendoka/kenshi as stunt people or instructors for all the Star Wars movies with the VAST majority of "light sabre" (bamboo shinai rip offs that glow) as one-on-one combat taken right out of Nihon Kendo Kata. Darth Vader's costume? Tell me that is not a total rip off of Kendo Bogu?

Almost all the Star Wars "attacks" are plain men, kote, do, or tsuki with a little Chinese Wushu (jian and dao sword attacks) thrown in for good measure.

The fights are classic uchidachi vs shidachi right from Kendo.

The Jedi Temple with the kids practicing with light sabers is right out of
Bokuto Ni Yoru Kendo Kihon-waza Keiko-ho exercises.

I am not the "Japanophile" you are but Kendo/jutsu and Iado are sports I really dig.

Now if my shinken could only glow purple like Mace Windu's light sabre...

BK

[UberBerzerker]

Originally Posted by Kohen_Gadol

Must...resist...temptaton to hijack thread!!!

I see that failed

[nni]

dude, star wars was based off of a japanese samurai flick.

[kappaz]

Great review

[uhockey]

So, um, are you saying I shouldn't buy 17-HD? The bros say it's good. I was going to stack it with liquid creatine serum and the strap.

[Androgenic]

Originally Posted by nni

dude, star wars was based off of a japanese samurai flick.

Great movie...Hidden Fortress. I am a japanophile, so yeah, I know it. Wait, now I am hijacking my own thread. http://www.amazon.com/Hidden-Fortres.../dp/B00005B1ZL

OK, OK, no more Star Wars.

As far as the question asked by LanBane above, no I have not tried it. It would be hard to imagine given my review above that I would feel compelled to give my money away to such a formulation. Even if it was the "bomb" as you stated, the level of deception and shadiness of the product would never allow me to purchase such a thing.

[Androgenic]

Originally Posted by uhockey

So, um, are you saying I shouldn't buy 17-HD? The bros say it's good. I was going to stack it with liquid creatine serum and the strap.

Actually, I thought about reviewing those two, along with endothil, liver-tabs and animal-pak. Or that SDI Labs/ Legal Steroids thing that fills up the back of the muscle mags...talk about deceptive and disreputable.

[UberBerzerker]

Originally Posted by Lanbane

but that stuff is the BOMB!
................. Well worth every cent.

how so...please elaborate

[Mr. Aries]

*throws androgenic and bk a star wars toy*



go at it boys!!!

[J-Rod]

Originally Posted by Androgenic

Good luck to anyone who uses this. The supplement industry loves you.

Word.

BTW, lol on the CBSO. That was good.

[USPlabs]

Originally Posted by Androgenic

Actually, I thought about reviewing those two, along with endothil, liver-tabs and animal-pak. Or that SDI Labs/ Legal Steroids thing that fills up the back of the muscle mags...talk about deceptive and disreputable.

Interesting take.

Whats your take on supplement companies marketing and selling steroids like Haladrol, Superdrol, and the rest?

Whats more brazen; Masking the name of a herbal supplement that has vast toxicity data or manufacturing a new steroid with 0 data and marketed off assumptions?

[Lanbane]

Originally Posted by UberBerzerker

how so...please elaborate

Everyone I have heard of using it says the same thing: It's effects are more of a stimulant, with a high level of focus and clarity, and a short term boost to strength and endurance.

To each his own.... not every supplement works for everybody.