What do you think drop sets are good for?

[gymratluke]

Strength gains OR Size gains

[Tyrbolift]

Strength gains OR Size gains

Several things, but between your choices, I'd pick size gains. Strength gains only as it relates to endurance.

When did you become a black and whiter, Luke?

[W8isGR8]

Neither

Burning calories

[John Prophet]

id have to go with size....of course they are very intense so you probably have to keep overall volume low etc

[Dominik]

Strength gains OR Size gains

I can't see the strength building benefits (personally I'd rather end the set, rest, and lift some more heavy weight) but the way I see it they're kind of like forced reps only you can keep going without a spotter by dropping the weight.

The only thing I'd suggest is to always keep the tension of the weight in mind. Lifting light weights when you're fatigued does not suddenly = magic muscle builder. So going from 85% down to 65% might be okay. Going from 70% to 50% IMO is useless since 50% is warmup weight. You might be in pain when you're lifting it after lifting 70% for 12-15 reps to failure, but the tension it provides is still only 50% of your max. Always keep that in mind.

If I had to nominate one failure technique for being the most effective for strength and size training I'd go with rest pausing since it allows you to lift a moderate-to heavy weight for more reps than you could otherwise.

[Rocky_Maivia]

Drop Sets =
Glycogen depletion
CNS fatigue

[gymratluke]

I'm not black and white Ty....just wondering about other peoples opinions. IMO they dont do ANYTHING for strength! My partner was tryin to tell me that if I want to up my Bench Press start doing drop sets every time and i said HELL NO! I tried to explain to him....he dont get it. I just want to show him this thread....

Neither

Burning calories

I can't see the strength building benefits (personally I'd rather end the set, rest, and lift some more heavy weight) but the way I see it they're kind of like forced reps only you can keep going without a spotter by dropping the weight.

The only thing I'd suggest is to always keep the tension of the weight in mind. Lifting light weights when you're fatigued does not suddenly = magic muscle builder. So going from 85% down to 65% might be okay. Going from 70% to 50% IMO is useless since 50% is warmup weight. You might be in pain when you're lifting it after lifting 70% for 12-15 reps to failure, but the tension it provides is still only 50% of your max. Always keep that in mind.

If I had to nominate one failure technique for being the most effective for strength and size training I'd go with rest pausing since it allows you to lift a moderate-to heavy weight for more reps than you could otherwise.

Good advice like always! i dont quite get the TENSION part, but I do understand what you were gettin at about goin too light being pointless...

[spirit3530]

Good for the pumps

[gymratluke]

Good for the pumps

AMEN to that!

[unclejeff]

according to the theory of this site....(which i don't disagree with), if you progressively increase the weight. you should see size and strength gains.

ie: drop set= 90-70, next week 95-75....

get it...just hypothetical.

[Dr. Painburner]

If I had to nominate one failure technique for being the most effective for strength and size training I'd go with rest pausing since it allows you to lift a moderate-to heavy weight for more reps than you could otherwise.

yep.

[gymratluke]

yep.

I agree with that too! I read about DC today...i really like that routine for the most part.

[mightymouse37]

Neither

Burning calories

you forgot pump

Edit: damn, spirit beat me to it...

[Dominik]

Good advice like always! i dont quite get the TENSION part, but I do understand what you were gettin at about goin too light being pointless...

Luke, what I meant was more weight = more tension. When you lift a light weight in a fatigued state it obviously feels incredibly heavy but the tension has not changed. It's still a light weight.

I mean do some heavy bench and then drop on the floor and do a few pushups. They'll kill you, but we all know bw pushups aren't going to anything to build muscle. So always think in terms of the tension that those muscles are subjected to. It's that moderate to heavy weight that is going to get the job done building size and strength so don't waste time with dropsets that involve light weight. Keep it over 65%.

[gymratluke]

Luke, what I meant was more weight = more tension. When you lift a light weight in a fatigued state it obviously feels incredibly heavy but the tension has not changed. It's still a light weight.

I mean do some heavy bench and then drop on the floor and do a few pushups. They'll kill you, but we all know bw pushups aren't going to anything to build muscle. So always think in terms of the tension that those muscles are subjected to. It's that moderate to heavy weight that is going to get the job done building size and strength so don't waste time with dropsets that involve light weight. Keep it over 65%.

Alright, thats what i thought you meant. Makes total sense, thanks!

[EMISGOD]

I used these almost exclusively for the last few years and beyond and am still seeing gains in both size and strength. This is easily the best way to train, for me, because of the intensity factor. Drop supersetting is the most intense form of training I know of, but even using Drop sets without the supersets will ramp up the intensity level quite a lot. I find this triggers growth and definitely helps with strength gains, although that is more a side issue for me. The only drawback to using Drops as heavily and as much as I do is that, as JP said, unless reps are kept fairly low, it is sadistically easy to overtrain...

[gymratluke]

yeah I am talkin about the drop supersetting. I did them with front squats the other night, I am sore as F*ck!!! I did them 48 hours ago and i think the soreness is still getting worse... DOMSOWNED!!!

[SwagMorris]

Luke, what I meant was more weight = more tension. When you lift a light weight in a fatigued state it obviously feels incredibly heavy but the tension has not changed. It's still a light weight.

I mean do some heavy bench and then drop on the floor and do a few pushups. They'll kill you, but we all know bw pushups aren't going to anything to build muscle. So always think in terms of the tension that those muscles are subjected to. It's that moderate to heavy weight that is going to get the job done building size and strength so don't waste time with dropsets that involve light weight. Keep it over 65%.

Dom, how do you feel about rest pause sets? Do you think they are worth while for strength and hypertrophy gains? I used to do them when I was pressed for time at the gym.

[gymratluke]

Dom, how do you feel about rest pause sets? Do you think they are worth while for strength and hypertrophy gains? I used to do them when I was pressed for time at the gym.

If I had to nominate one failure technique for being the most effective for strength and size training I'd go with rest pausing since it allows you to lift a moderate-to heavy weight for more reps than you could otherwise.

^^^

[SwagMorris]

^^^

Lol, that's what happens when I don't read everything

[Tyrbolift]

yeah I am talkin about the drop supersetting. I did them with front squats the other night, I am sore as F*ck!!! I did them 48 hours ago and i think the soreness is still getting worse... DOMSOWNED!!!

It's something your body is not used to. Your experience speaks more to periodization than drop sets alone. I think they are a legitimate method/technique for gaining size, and love doing them. But not alone or exclusively.

[toobsox]

I think they're a legitimate technique when used occasionally to build size. Its not about % of your 1RM, you can only lift your 1RM when you are fully rested. Lets say you do bench press at close to your max for 5 sets at a heavy enough weight to leave you are tired. Continuing to bench press after these sets, even with less weight (smaller % of max) is still going to recruit more fibres and induce more microtrauma, leading to more growth. I dont think its as cut and dry as "if you're not lifting 'x' % you will not grow". It depends on your current state. Similiar to Arnolds technique of "running the rack" on dumbbell presses and such. Obviously you wont grow lifting 55% of your max BEFORE exhaustion, but lifting this AFTER exhaustion will help growth in my opinion.


But this type of failure/exhaustion training will leave you very drained so use it sparringly. I think its an effective technique when used properly. Similiar to short rest times (less weight but more muscle exhaustion, forcing additional fibres to fire which may have gone unused previously).

[Dominik]

I think they're a legitimate technique when used occasionally to build size. Its not about % of your 1RM, you can only lift your 1RM when you are fully rested. Lets say you do bench press at close to your max for 5 sets at a heavy enough weight to leave you are tired. Continuing to bench press after these sets, even with less weight (smaller % of max) is still going to recruit more fibres and induce more microtrauma, leading to more growth. I dont think its as cut and dry as "if you're not lifting 'x' % you will not grow". It depends on your current state. Similiar to Arnolds technique of "running the rack" on dumbbell presses and such. Obviously you wont grow lifting 55% of your max BEFORE exhaustion, but lifting this AFTER exhaustion will help growth in my opinion.

I don't want to start a big debate here because Luke asked a simple question and I tried to give a simple answer, but you might want to read up on recruitment. Tell me which muscle fibers you're specifically trying to target? Heavy weights will specifically recruit the fast twitch fibers that lead to maximum size gains. In fact, lifting a heavy enough weight, around 80-85% of 1RM will automatically recruit all those fibers.

There's a reason why bodybuilders do most of their training in the 6-12 rep range. It works. The tension those weights (typically 70-85% of 1RM) provide coupled with the overall volume (sets x reps) they allow in each workout week in, week out, gets results.

Now if you're going to subscribe to the theory that flailing away with light weights is effective simply because you're fatigued, then I challenge you to try a little experiment. Drop all presses from your training for 6 months. Instead do a few sets of body weight pushups to failure. Aim for 50. Then 100. Then 200. See if you can make it to 500 with a little luck. Lots of endurance work with light weight there. Now tell me how your chest looks in 6 months.

Take my word for it, the guy lifting more and more weight for 6-12 reps with good form who doesn't waste his time with dropsets is going to see better results. Why? The tension keeps increasing and assuming the volume is reasonably constant, the muscles will be forced to adapt to the greater loads.

[Tyrbolift]

I don't want to start a big debate here because Luke asked a simple question and I tried to give a simple answer, but you might want to read up on recruitment. Tell me which muscle fibers you're specifically trying to target? Heavy weights will specifically recruit the fast twitch fibers that lead to maximum size gains. In fact, lifting a heavy enough weight, around 80-85% of 1RM will automatically recruit all those fibers.

There's a reason why bodybuilders do most of their training in the 6-12 rep range. It works. The tension those weights (typically 70-85% of 1RM) provide coupled with the overall volume (sets x reps) they allow in each workout week in, week out, gets results.

Now if you're going to subscribe to the theory that flailing away with light weights is effective simply because you're fatigued, then I challenge you to try a little experiment. Drop all presses from your training for 6 months. Instead do a few sets of body weight pushups to failure. Aim for 50. Then 100. Then 200. See if you can make it to 500 with a little luck. Lots of endurance work with light weight there. Now tell me how your chest looks in 6 months.

Take my word for it, the guy lifting more and more weight for 6-12 reps with good form who doesn't waste his time with dropsets is going to see better results. Why? The tension keeps increasing and assuming the volume is reasonably constant, the muscles will be forced to adapt to the greater loads.

Playing the strawman again, Dom. "Flailing away?"

For some people...to each his own.

Why take your word for it?

What about methods of periodization?

I think dropsets are an excellent tactic to add to a grueling workout long after you have thrown in the towel because you can't do any more 6-12 reps at ever increasing weight.

btw: Dropsets don't have to go above 12 reps.

[Dominik]

Playing the strawman again, Dom. "Flailing away?"

For some people...to each his own.

Why take your word for it?

What about methods of periodization?

I think dropsets are an excellent tactic to add to a grueling workout long after you have thrown in the towel because you can't do any more 6-12 reps at ever increasing weight.

btw: Dropsets don't have to go above 12 reps.

Selective reading again, Tyrbo?

There is no strawman. He said "Obviously you wont grow lifting 55% of your max BEFORE exhaustion, but lifting this AFTER exhaustion will help growth in my opinion."

55% is LIGHT weight. Warmup weight. Useless for building muscle. And for strength, its only relevance would be in a dynamic effort context and that's performed when you're fresh, not fatiged to the point where "bar speed" would be at a crawl.

Finally, I did not say drop sets were useless. I said if the weight is too light, lifting it in a fatigued state will not magically start building muscle. I clearly explained why tension is important and you won't get that from dropsets if the weight used isn't heavy enough. So if you're going to use dropsetting, I said keep the weight over 65% of your max.

[Dominik]

However training with low intensity and low volume does have value. Such training is used for recuperation of the body after heavy loading.[/B]

Lower intensity in the context of periodization is fine... up to a point. Using Zatsiorsky's book as an example where he examines the training intensity of elite Russian weightlifters, resistance under 60% was considered "warmup" weight. And those guys aren't even concerned with hypertrophy. If you're interested in building muscle, anything under 65% of your 1RM truly is a waste of time for rep work.

This is where I'm at odds with the habitual dropsetters. If you do a set @ 85% for say 6-8 reps to failure, and then keep going with a set @ 70%, the tension of the weights involved will be in an effective range. Weight that can build muscle. The notion that light warmup weight magically morphs into muscle building weight just because you're fatigued is fantasy land stuff.

Anyway, it's not my place to tell some people what to do. You can put the information out there and let them decide. I'll just keep lifting heavy weights and focusing on weight progression and they can keep coming up with innovative ways to stay small.

[ThickAsABrick]

http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=1289080

The Beast Rants, You Learn
by Christian Thibaudeau
Progression: This goes back to the principle of effort. The real secret to building muscle and strength is to progress. You must challenge your body on a consistent basis and find ways to progressively ask more of it. If you do the same thing over and over again, you'll end up looking the same as you do now in a month, a year, or ten years. Progress is the name of the game, not program design, not tempo or other small details. Find a way to progress and you'll gain size and strength.

Now, there's more than one way to progress. Basically what we're looking for are ways to make our bodies work harder. This is progress and this is what will lead to growth. Here are a few ways to make your body work harder:

6. Use intensive training methods: The occasional inclusion of methods such as drop sets, rest/pause sets, tempo contrast, iso-dynamic contrast, supersets, and compound sets is another way of making your body work harder. It also shouldn't be abused as it represents a tremendous stress on the muscle and nervous system.

[unclejeff]

i think sometimes we forget that our muscles don't know how much weight they are lifting. i think toobsox makes a good point. it is almost like you are tricking your muscles to lift at 85%or so. (i think )

why is it that whenever a discussion of a different training method comees up "drop sets,".... it always seem that i have to read comparisons of curling a soup can, or doing 1000 pushups...and other jibberish. drop sets are a very "effective" tool to use in your training regimen-my opinion.

i usually use them to speed through an arm workout when i have to, or when i just want to change something up. that is just me though.

[de_barathrum]

http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=1289080

The Beast Rants, You Learn
by Christian Thibaudeau
Progression: This goes back to the principle of effort. The real secret to building muscle and strength is to progress. You must challenge your body on a consistent basis and find ways to progressively ask more of it. If you do the same thing over and over again, you'll end up looking the same as you do now in a month, a year, or ten years. Progress is the name of the game, not program design, not tempo or other small details. Find a way to progress and you'll gain size and strength.

Now, there's more than one way to progress. Basically what we're looking for are ways to make our bodies work harder. This is progress and this is what will lead to growth. Here are a few ways to make your body work harder:

6. Use intensive training methods: The occasional inclusion of methods such as drop sets, rest/pause sets, tempo contrast, iso-dynamic contrast, supersets, and compound sets is another way of making your body work harder. It also shouldn't be abused as it represents a tremendous stress on the muscle and nervous system.

i love reading christian thibaudeau's articles. good stuff.

[toobsox]

I don't want to start a big debate here because Luke asked a simple question and I tried to give a simple answer, but you might want to read up on recruitment. Tell me which muscle fibers you're specifically trying to target? Heavy weights will specifically recruit the fast twitch fibers that lead to maximum size gains. In fact, lifting a heavy enough weight, around 80-85% of 1RM will automatically recruit all those fibers.

There's a reason why bodybuilders do most of their training in the 6-12 rep range. It works. The tension those weights (typically 70-85% of 1RM) provide coupled with the overall volume (sets x reps) they allow in each workout week in, week out, gets results.

Now if you're going to subscribe to the theory that flailing away with light weights is effective simply because you're fatigued, then I challenge you to try a little experiment. Drop all presses from your training for 6 months. Instead do a few sets of body weight pushups to failure. Aim for 50. Then 100. Then 200. See if you can make it to 500 with a little luck. Lots of endurance work with light weight there. Now tell me how your chest looks in 6 months.

Take my word for it, the guy lifting more and more weight for 6-12 reps with good form who doesn't waste his time with dropsets is going to see better results. Why? The tension keeps increasing and assuming the volume is reasonably constant, the muscles will be forced to adapt to the greater loads.

I wasnt talking about high reps and stuff, like your pushup example, I'm not trying to say that 500 reps will make my chest grow. Its easier to explain my thought process by showing a sample workout. Pretend your worksets on bench are 200 pounds for 5 sets of 8. A workout might look like this


120x8
150x8
180x8
200x5x8 = most people would stop here, but sometimes they can do more work
170x8
150x8
130x8
110x8

Obviously lifting 150 before your 200 sets isnt doing much (its warmup weight), but from a fatigued state its effective in my opinion. I'm not claiming to be an expert or anything and maybe I'm wrong here, but alot of bodybuilders are on my side as well, who are fans of drop sets, 2 way pyramids, running the rack, etc..

Now that workout would be really tiring for most people thats why I said be careful with it.