Should I do Rippetoe or Madcow5X5?

**SJACKAL** · 10-10-2006, 06:44 AM

Hi

I was intending to start the Madcow5X5 until I learned about Rippetoe's starting strenght. I am not sure which one is more suitable for me.

I am 28 years, 5ft7in 165lbs. I will be doing the routine over 12 days instead of the usual 1 week due to my working shifts, I cannot follow it like a Mon Wed Fri style, but it would rather be something like rest, rest, train, train.

As for training experience, I had been training for the past 6 to 7 months, where training were based around squats, bench and deads, plus the isolations works and cable machines (BB style). The rep scheme was always pretty mess up and random coz I would try anything I read on bodybuilding magazines. Usually, it was often high volume type of training, for instance 5 to 6 sets of squats, followed by 2 sets front squats, 2 sets leg curls, 2 sets leg extension, kinda thing.

Now I want to start on a real program, but I am unsure of either Ripptoe or 5X5. Which routine will suit me more? Thanx!

**nitrored** · 10-10-2006, 06:50 AM

Originally Posted by SJACKAL

I cannot follow it like a Mon Wed Fri style, but it would rather be something like rest, rest, train, train.

You probably won't last long on either, when you fix your schedule, try Rippetoe's...

**SJACKAL** · 10-10-2006, 06:55 AM

Originally Posted by nitrored

You probably won't last long on either, when you fix your schedule, try Rippetoe's...

Well, I can't do much about my working shifts. Its not something I can change.

My intention is to do the main lifts on one day and assistance lifts on the other, then I get two rest days before I train again. So instead of 1 week, I use 12 days.

**nitrored** · 10-10-2006, 06:57 AM

You cant go to the gym before or after work?
I have seen people here with god awful schedules that make these programs work right...

**SJACKAL** · 10-10-2006, 07:04 AM

Originally Posted by nitrored

You cant go to the gym before or after work?
I have seen people here with god awful schedules that make these programs work right...

Its a 15 hours shift job, often stressful. So...

My work schedule is like a 4 days rotating cycle.

Day 1 - 7am to 10pm
Day 2 - 7pm to 10am on day 3 I try to squeeze in one short workout in the morning, so that I can sleep in the afternoon, and start work at night.
Day 3 - Sleep after finishing my night shift, I can train PM, but I feel different, its hard to describe the draining effects of 15 hours night shift. So workout will be short too.
Day 4 - Non working day, best day to train.

**Helis** · 10-10-2006, 07:14 AM

You want to pick the program that offers the fastest, most linear progress. That will be determined by your current performance on the core lifts relative to your potential. If your lifts are still weak, you can easily sustain PRs in every session for a while. 5x5's more incremental approach will be a better choice if you're a bit further along in your development.

Someone could probably give you a specific recommendation if you told us what weight you are using on each of the relevant lifts but ultimately you have to decide.

**nitrored** · 10-10-2006, 07:17 AM

Yeah long shifts are a pain... I used to do 14hr shifts for a few monthes, no more because they would make me take another lunch break...

Your work week rotates faster then gym week, so you will eventually have each workout day on each work day. Your schedule is a pain because of the morning then night thing but you do have windows to fit the program into...

On Day 1 you really only have early morning 5am-ish, thats not too bad... you just had 2 days off.
On Day 2, you have the whole day before work, Id try to keep it the morning so it is like your day 1 schedule.
On Day 3 you can go right after work, yes it's pain but you can do it.
On Day 4, you have all day, again I would keep it in the morning.

Your work week rotates faster then gym week, so you will eventually have each workout day on each work day.

**SJACKAL** · 10-10-2006, 07:30 AM

Originally Posted by Helis

You want to pick the program that offers the fastest, most linear progress. That will be determined by your current performance on the core lifts relative to your potential. If your lifts are still weak, you can easily sustain PRs in every session for a while. 5x5's more incremental approach will be a better choice if you're a bit further along in your development.

Someone could probably give you a specific recommendation if you told us what weight you are using on each of the relevant lifts but ultimately you have to decide.

My lifts are weak:

Squat - 165 X 5 reps
Bench - 135 X 3 reps
Deadlift - 230 X 3 reps (low variant with 35lb plates)

I am weakest in the bench, and there had been no increase in poundage or reps for many weeks.

I think I can still progress easily for my squats and especially deadlift, deadlifting had always been easy for me.

**SJACKAL** · 10-10-2006, 07:34 AM

Originally Posted by nitrored

Yeah long shifts are a pain... I used to do 14hr shifts for a few monthes, no more because they would make me take another lunch break...

Your work week rotates faster then gym week, so you will eventually have each workout day on each work day. Your schedule is a pain because of the morning then night thing but you do have windows to fit the program into...

On Day 1 you really only have early morning 5am-ish, thats not too bad... you just had 2 days off.
On Day 2, you have the whole day before work, Id try to keep it the morning so it is like your day 1 schedule.
On Day 3 you can go right after work, yes it's pain but you can do it.
On Day 4, you have all day, again I would keep it in the morning.

Your work week rotates faster then gym week, so you will eventually have each workout day on each work day.

The gyms around here opens at 7am earliest.

So its pretty fixed for me to train the main lifts on Day 4, and the assistances on day 2 morning. I am actually planning to add more assistance work on day 2 since I would have a longer recovery time.

**r_graz** · 10-10-2006, 07:45 AM

Originally Posted by SJACKAL

Squat - 165 X 5 reps
Bench - 135 X 3 reps
Deadlift - 230 X 3 reps (low variant with 35lb plates)

Your deadlift is not too bad, considering the relatively low bench and squat. No doubt you'd progress on either program, but with your lifts being relatively low you'd probably move faster on Starting Strength. Still, your schedule is going to make it tough (as you already know).

**Helis** · 10-10-2006, 07:55 AM

I agree with r_graz, Starting Strength looks like your best starting point. Schedule is tough, just find a way to make it work.

**SJACKAL** · 10-10-2006, 08:07 AM

Great, thanx people!

I will try out starting strenght first. I guess I should continue until gains don't come as fast then I will switch to 5X5, right?

**r_graz** · 10-10-2006, 08:13 AM

Originally Posted by SJACKAL

Great, thanx people!

I will try out starting strenght first. I guess I should continue until gains don't come as fast then I will switch to 5X5, right?

Switch to 5x5, HST, Westside, pretty much any solid program that furthers your goals at the time. You should get enough strength increase from SS to make any program you move to later that much more effective. Best to not to switch off SS until you've really tapped it out, though. Lots of people have gotten incredible gains from it for a very long time.

**SJACKAL** · 10-10-2006, 08:17 AM

Thank you all, reps for all of you

**SJACKAL** · 10-11-2006, 10:28 AM

If you follow this thread, you would know that my problem is mainly with my work shift patterns, which forfeits a Mon-Wed-Fri routine, and my long night shifts, which affects my recovery from a workout.

I know it is reminded many times that one shouldn't mess with the program or change the exercises. But I need to amend it to suit my needs. I am not going to change the exercises, set/rep scheme or add/reduce exercises, but I am just going to break up a Workout into two parts and complete it over two sessions on my night shift days.

For instance Workout A is broken into A1 - Squats and crunches, A2 - Bench Press, Deadlift and Dips.

Likewise with Workout B, B1 - Squats and crunches, B2 - Military Press and Pendlay Rows. Sets and Reps unchanged. It will fit into my schedule like this:

Day 01 - Work (day shift 15hrs)
Day 02 - Train Workout A1, sleep the afternoon and start work (night shift 15hrs)
Day 03 - Sleep after getting back from work and recuperate
Day 04 - Train workout A

Day 05 - Work (day shift 15hrs)
Day 06 - Train Workout A2, sleep the afternoon and start work (night shift 15hrs)
Day 07 - Sleep after getting back from work and recuperate
Day 08 - Train workout B

Day 09 - Work (day shift 15hrs)
Day 10 - Train Workout B1, sleep the afternoon and start work (night shift 15hrs)
Day 11 - Sleep after getting back from work and recuperate
Day 12 - Train workout A

Day 13 - Work (day shift 15hrs)
Day 14 - Train Workout B2, sleep the afternoon and start work (night shift 15hrs)
Day 15 - Sleep after getting back from work and recuperate
Day 16 - Train workout B

This way, I get 12 full workout (A&B) in 32 days, which is very close to the original Mon-Wed-Fri routine which yields 12 full workouts in 28 days. I am squatting thrice every 8 days as compared to the original routine which includes squats 3 times per 7 days. The partial workouts would then not be as taxing since I gotta work long nights which plays havoc on my recovery. I am sure I am not the only guy with such constraints.

Any advice will be greatly appreciated. Thanx in advance.

**Helis** · 10-11-2006, 11:18 AM

That's a tough one. Since your gym doesn't open until 7AM, any schedule I can figure for you means you're either going to have to stay awake for absurd stretches of time, or divide your sleeping time into two sessions of a few hours each.

There isn't any way you could hack doing the entire session in one go and just knocking it out in a hour or 70 minutes? If you absolutely have to split the sessions up, then give it a try and see what happens. It won't be optimal, but you do what you gotta. In the end the differences are fairly small over the course of a few weeks.

I don't know if this is possible given your living arrangements, but I would think your best bet would be to buy a power rack, olympic barbell set, and just go to town in a spare bedroom. It would solve most, if not all, of your problems.

**mjw8204** · 10-11-2006, 11:36 AM

My suggestion would be to simply set up a scheme that works better with your schedule. Rippetoe would be great, but if you're having to change the layout of the program to accommodate your schedule, you really aren't doing Rip's program anymore. I recommend picking a couple of compound lifts per workout, and then dispersing them over two or three or even four different sessions. Then, time permitting, add one assistance lift to each workout.

**r_graz** · 10-11-2006, 01:44 PM

Originally Posted by mjw8204

My suggestion would be to simply set up a scheme that works better with your schedule. Rippetoe would be great, but if you're having to change the layout of the program to accommodate your schedule, you really aren't doing Rip's program anymore. I recommend picking a couple of compound lifts per workout, and then dispersing them over two or three or even four different sessions. Then, time permitting, add one assistance lift to each workout.

^^^^^^^^^^^
Agreed.

For whatever reason (and I trust him on this), Rip is pretty set on every workout starting with squats. So if you absolutely have to break things up because of your schedule, well that's life, but you're not doing Starting Strength anymore and your results are unpredictable. Your results *may* be fine, but we have to assume the workouts in the program were set up that way for a reason.

You could try your approach for a while and see how it works for you. If you're not getting satisfactory results, you could switch to a different program until you schedule permits. Obviously the job (and the need to earn a living) come first.

**SJACKAL** · 10-11-2006, 09:04 PM

I think I gonna try it and see how it works out in 3 months. Bottom line is that training is still better than not training. Thanx for all responses.

**JoeyTS** · 10-12-2006, 12:48 AM

I recently quit working so I could get my priorities in order.

No job is worth so much time and sacrafice unless its your passion (and therefore it is what you would be doing even if you were not getting paid), or if you can confidently know that you can be finacially independant and retire very soon if you stick it out a couple of years at the job.

Remember, you don't live to work, you work to live and enjoy your time. I do not know your preferences, but if I had a job that prevented a solid program, diet, and rest, I would do something new.

5x5 and/or Rippetoe require 3 non-consecutive training days each week. If you can not fit that in, the programs are not for you. You could enjoy success simply rotating through a split. Something simple such as Chest/tri day, Back/bi day, and Legs/shoulders day could work great. Just do them in order and don't worry about what day of the week things land; just do the next workout in the rotation on your next free day or when you can get in the gym. That may be two days training in a row, or it could be non-consecutive days, either way with that traditional split it should not matter. Some may even train 3 days in a row with one or two days off before repeating. As you can see, its a basic split that is very versatile.

Best of luck to you

**nitrored** · 10-12-2006, 03:22 AM

Originally Posted by SJACKAL

If you follow this thread, you would know that my problem is mainly with my work shift patterns, which forfeits a Mon-Wed-Fri routine, and my long night shifts, which affects my recovery from a workout.

I know it is reminded many times that one shouldn't mess with the program or change the exercises. But I need to amend it to suit my needs. I am not going to change the exercises, set/rep scheme or add/reduce exercises, but I am just going to break up a Workout into two parts and complete it over two sessions on my night shift days.

For instance Workout A is broken into A1 - Squats and crunches, A2 - Bench Press, Deadlift and Dips.

Likewise with Workout B, B1 - Squats and crunches, B2 - Military Press and Pendlay Rows. Sets and Reps unchanged. It will fit into my schedule like this:

Day 01 - Work (day shift 15hrs)
Day 02 - Train Workout A1, sleep the afternoon and start work (night shift 15hrs)
Day 03 - Sleep after getting back from work and recuperate
Day 04 - Train workout A

Day 05 - Work (day shift 15hrs)
Day 06 - Train Workout A2, sleep the afternoon and start work (night shift 15hrs)
Day 07 - Sleep after getting back from work and recuperate
Day 08 - Train workout B

Day 09 - Work (day shift 15hrs)
Day 10 - Train Workout B1, sleep the afternoon and start work (night shift 15hrs)
Day 11 - Sleep after getting back from work and recuperate
Day 12 - Train workout A

Day 13 - Work (day shift 15hrs)
Day 14 - Train Workout B2, sleep the afternoon and start work (night shift 15hrs)
Day 15 - Sleep after getting back from work and recuperate
Day 16 - Train workout B

This way, I get 12 full workout (A&B) in 32 days, which is very close to the original Mon-Wed-Fri routine which yields 12 full workouts in 28 days. I am squatting thrice every 8 days as compared to the original routine which includes squats 3 times per 7 days. The partial workouts would then not be as taxing since I gotta work long nights which plays havoc on my recovery. I am sure I am not the only guy with such constraints.

Any advice will be greatly appreciated. Thanx in advance.

I dont think this workout plan is great, but I do not think it is bad either. Your schedule is brutal and is going to prevent you from getting the best results. I think what you have there is worth trying, if you get some results, great... if you dont come back and bump this thread with what is going on and Im sure you can get some more help tweaking it.

**SJACKAL** · 10-13-2006, 08:25 AM

Thanx nitrored, for the honest yet encouraging words. I am going to start soon. Taking time to heal joint strains and learning Pendlay Row form. Need to check my row 5RM and SMP 5RM too.

**SJACKAL** · 10-13-2006, 08:27 AM

Oh Joey I can't quit my job, I don't like it a lot but it is important to me. Training is recreational although nonetheless I take training very seriously.

**HATETANK** · 10-13-2006, 08:35 AM

Originally Posted by JoeyTS

I recently quit working so I could get my priorities in order.

No job is worth so much time and sacrafice unless its your passion (and therefore it is what you would be doing even if you were not getting paid), or if you can confidently know that you can be finacially independant and retire very soon if you stick it out a couple of years at the job.

Or you have a house payment...
Kids to feed...
Electricity to pay...
Food to eat...

Everyone has to work, sometimes our jobs aren't convenient but we do them because we must.

SJackal, like said above: Your workout schedule isnt ideal but the plan you developed should work fine for you. The most difficult part is keeping yourself fed during 15 hour shifts. Stay motivated and focus.

**SJACKAL** · 10-13-2006, 08:40 AM

Thanx Hatetank, keeping myself fed usually isn't a problem (most of the time), I prepare and pack meals and bring along. For days where its not convenient, thanx to the world protein bars exists.

**JoeyTS** · 10-13-2006, 12:59 PM

Originally Posted by SJACKAL

Oh Joey I can't quit my job, I don't like it a lot but it is important to me. Training is recreational although nonetheless I take training very seriously.

If its important to you than that makes sense. I used to work 16 hours a day because the work itself ment alot to me at the time and I wanted the project to get done. During that time I had a hard time training. People have done well with tough schedules. I have friends in Iraq who still find a way to make progress even in thier current conditions. I think dedication is the best program so find what fits and crank it out. You just need to make sure you get decent rest and recovery. Best of luck and I hope you let us know if you make some good gains

Originally Posted by HATETANK

Or you have a house payment...
Kids to feed...
Electricity to pay...
Food to eat...

Everyone has to work, sometimes our jobs aren't convenient but we do them because we must....

There is nothing "everyone" has to do or not do. There are millions of people in Chicago alone, and I doubt all of them have similar ways of living. For example, I quit working, cut back on wasted spending, and our family is doing just fine (and we are only typical midddle class Americans) so it depends on your situation. Many people spend enough on junk such as interest payments (such as loans or credit, something one should aviod or it cancles investment profits) beer, smoking, movies, cable tv, cells phones, eating out (the same $10 at burger king can buy you 5 lbs of chicken when its on sale) ect... to make up for an entire income. Cut the waste and someone in the house can stay home. We even have found that we save more now because there is no more wasted spending on things like quick lunches at work. I pack my wife a cooler with 3 solid home cooked meals everyday because I have the free time. She also lifts very seriously and me staying home has been great for both of us. Its great you will be able to have all home cooked food (which also saves tons of cash).

But what I ment to the OP was to just look for another place to earn an income. In most areas there are other jobs avaliable. That schedule makes it very hard to live. It looks almost like everything takes a back seat and work is the priority. Life will go by real fast that way and yes you may have helped someone else get rich (the owner[s]) but is it worth your time? Some may say yes, some may say no. I was just trying to suggest that other jobs may be more suited to fit into HIS schedule; instead of trying to fit things into some job's schedule.

**HATETANK** · 10-13-2006, 03:40 PM

Originally Posted by JoeyTS

There is nothing "everyone" has to do or not do. There are millions of people in Chicago alone, and I doubt all of them have similar ways of living. For example, I quit working, cut back on wasted spending, and our family is doing just fine (and we are only typical midddle class Americans) so it depends on your situation. Many people spend enough on junk such as interest payments (such as loans or credit, something one should aviod or it cancles investment profits) beer, smoking, movies, cable tv, cells phones, eating out (the same $10 at burger king can buy you 5 lbs of chicken when its on sale) ect... to make up for an entire income. Cut the waste and someone in the house can stay home. We even have found that we save more now because there is no more wasted spending on things like quick lunches at work. I pack my wife a cooler with 3 solid home cooked meals everyday because I have the free time. She also lifts very seriously and me staying home has been great for both of us. Its great you will be able to have all home cooked food (which also saves tons of cash).

But what I ment to the OP was to just look for another place to earn an income. In most areas there are other jobs avaliable. That schedule makes it very hard to live. It looks almost like everything takes a back seat and work is the priority. Life will go by real fast that way and yes you may have helped someone else get rich (the owner[s]) but is it worth your time? Some may say yes, some may say no. I was just trying to suggest that other jobs may be more suited to fit into HIS schedule; instead of trying to fit things into some job's schedule.

I feel you. I replied that because he is trying to make something work to the schedule he has now. Maybe he is looking for another job, telling him to quit isnt going to help him now.

I agree with you, I just also see he is looking to start making changes now rather than later (when I find a better job).

**JoeyTS** · 10-13-2006, 04:49 PM

I think the key is going to be finding a way to get some good quality sleep and good meals. More than a program that is. As long as you have consistancy and dedication in your workouts, any routine can work with a good diet and plenty of rest. Just my opinion. It will be a challange to balance it all, but it makes things interesting and I hope to see goals being reached so we can all see that even people with tough schedules can find a way to workout.

**SJACKAL** · 10-14-2006, 04:01 AM

Great views, thanx.

**Nightwolfer** · 10-14-2006, 04:41 AM

Originally Posted by SJACKAL

Well, I can't do much about my working shifts. Its not something I can change.

My intention is to do the main lifts on one day and assistance lifts on the other, then I get two rest days before I train again. So instead of 1 week, I use 12 days.

you can always find 1 hours free time.

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