Are Carbs necessary when Bulking?

[arnold23]

a HIGH level of carbs are not necessary, sure you could gain 14 lbs in 3 weeks, put i'd put money on it that only 1.5-2 pounds of that may be muscle, but if your not being active then why would you want to bulk? your not going to be lifting so your body won't be using the extra calories regardless of the source to build larger muscles, all you'll be doing is allowing the extra calories to go unused and stored as bodyfat. Personally, im on a maintenance diet before my bulk to get my metabolism and at a set level so that when i do increase my cals by 300( which will be a 2.5 pound gain over a month) it will sense an increase and start to use the cals to grow, my diet is currently 150 g carb and it won't be going past 200 g when i begin to add in cals in 2 weeks. a HIGH level of carbs is not necessary.

[eatingisfun]

Does a bear **** in the forest?

[Ledge]

"Of course you can bulk on a low carb diet. More calories then you burn and you will bulk. But you can't be scared of eating fat, that will be your source of energy, replacing carbs."

obviously a keto dieter. :P lotta saturated fats, meats, cheese, cream? minimal carbs (no oats? LOL) and little or no nutritious fruit. not my idea of a healthy diet, but each to their own.

[IraHays]

obviously a keto dieter. :P lotta saturated fats, meats, cheese, cream? minimal carbs (no oats? LOL) and little or no nutritious fruit. not my idea of a healthy diet, but each to their own.

You obviously have no clue.

[psychojoe]

Fruit contains crucial nutrients, likewise oats.

haha, orly?


Anyway, this is a topic i've tried to broach on more coherent and calm forums than this, like M&M. Few are willing to discuss it. Here is one thread that may be useful:

http://www.ironaddicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9383
http://www.mindandmuscle.net/forum/i...howtopic=24879

Personally im skeptical of how useful low-carb/high-fat "bulking" is. I am constantly torn between it, and a more conventional approach. I have yet to find anything that works for me.

[Ledge]

You obviously have no clue.

Obviously :P

[ChristianBBer]

You need carbs, absolutly while bulking.

Lets take it slow. Three sources of energy, Carbs, Fats, Portein.

Whats your goal in bulking ? Gain muscle mass.

When you lift what is your primary source of energy ? Carbs.
If you have no Carbs, whats next ? Fat. But your body cannot convert fat into energy quickly enough to be used as energy when lifting. So whats after that protein ? Bad news, becuase protein is the building block of muscle.

Now to gain muscle mass, you need to first of all work them out in the gym. For that you need energy, whats energy again carbs ?? (Unless you can workout without carbs, I personally can't) Now if you don't have carbs, a slppery slope begins.

No Carbs = no energy
Working out without energy = failure to build mass, you may build mass but will be very very slow and you'll more then likely loos motivation.
Working out without Carbs = leads to your body dipping into other energy sources, protein. ( Unless you can use fat, and for that your Heart rate needs to be low, 135ish, I dont know about you, but that might be hard to do when doing major compound exercises)
Taking protein away form other muscle = complete opposite of bulking

Just eat carbs. They fill out your muscles and make you look big during the winter. Worry about definition/carb cycling when cutting. Hope this helps

[Snahrl]

Do you know why the carb thing is a myth?

With a 'keto' diet, your sugar glucose levels remain stable throughout the day. Meaning, that when you're eating keto food with any bit of protein, there will be an insulin release and the glucose will be pushed into the muscles.

Don't fool yourself into thinking you have tons more energy just because you have the usual high carb diet.

Quite to the contrary, if your body is adept at using fat, you will have more energy.

[Snahrl]

obviously a keto dieter. :P lotta saturated fats, meats, cheese, cream? minimal carbs (no oats? LOL) and little or no nutritious fruit. not my idea of a healthy diet, but each to their own.

Except for the fact that the only real dietary sources of vitamin B12, Vitamin A, and vitamin D come from animal fat?

Not to mention, your diet would be getting plenty of trace minerals from the meat?

You act as if 'carbs' are somehow superior, nutrition wise, to meat/fat for humans.

[J1987]

i may be wrong but isnt the added carbs what makes a bulk a bulk? without the carbs its a cut!? like, say you require 1g pro per lean mass poundage, witch if you got some fat on yah like me is a good few pounds under what you weigh. so say my lean mass is 180, and i eat 180... more protein aint gonna do ****? the rest of my cals should come from carbs, and if i want to bulk i add carbs, and if i want to cut you cut carbs correct? i wouldent think of someone bulking on stricktly protein... no fun! lol... protein all day can get borining if you ask me, hell i just started eating pop tarts hehe

[psychojoe]

i may be wrong but isnt the added carbs what makes a bulk a bulk? without the carbs its a cut!? like, say you require 1g pro per lean mass poundage, witch if you got some fat on yah like me is a good few pounds under what you weigh. so say my lean mass is 180, and i eat 180... more protein aint gonna do ****? the rest of my cals should come from carbs, and if i want to bulk i add carbs, and if i want to cut you cut carbs correct? i wouldent think of someone bulking on stricktly protein... no fun! lol... protein all day can get borining if you ask me, hell i just started eating pop tarts hehe

read the ****ing thread, we are talking about using a high-fat diet instead of a high-carb diet, not low-carb AND low-fat

[psychojoe]

You need carbs, absolutly while bulking.

Lets take it slow. Three sources of energy, Carbs, Fats, Portein.

Whats your goal in bulking ? Gain muscle mass.

When you lift what is your primary source of energy ? Carbs.
If you have no Carbs, whats next ? Fat. But your body cannot convert fat into energy quickly enough to be used as energy when lifting. So whats after that protein ? Bad news, becuase protein is the building block of muscle.

Now to gain muscle mass, you need to first of all work them out in the gym. For that you need energy, whats energy again carbs ?? (Unless you can workout without carbs, I personally can't) Now if you don't have carbs, a slppery slope begins.

No Carbs = no energy
Working out without energy = failure to build mass, you may build mass but will be very very slow and you'll more then likely loos motivation.
Working out without Carbs = leads to your body dipping into other energy sources, protein. ( Unless you can use fat, and for that your Heart rate needs to be low, 135ish, I dont know about you, but that might be hard to do when doing major compound exercises)
Taking protein away form other muscle = complete opposite of bulking

Just eat carbs. They fill out your muscles and make you look big during the winter. Worry about definition/carb cycling when cutting. Hope this helps

We are not talking about eating no carbs at all. Indeed, post-workout at least would involved carbs, and frequently other periodic times of high-carb eating. In this way, one's glycogen is never depleted. Also, gluconeogenesis will see to it that glucose always is infact available, so you never find yourself totally without glycogen.

I have little doubt that *some* carbs in the diet are beneficial, certainly p/w. I think, though, that most people eat unneccessarily high amounts of carbs, which acheives nothing except slowing lipolysis with constantly elevated insulin. The common carb-based diets you see on bb.com are horrendous, eating so much bread, rice, oats, in nearly every meal. I suspect that most of you would do very well to just eat carbs at breakfast, and post-workout. The rest of the time, make it high-fat and protein.

What is especially bull**** is how carbs are regarded to give instant "energy", like eating them pre-workout. Infact carbs pre-workout have quite the opposite effect hormonally and neurally, generally sedating. I agree that carbs in the diet will give your subjectively more energy, but not in the short-term way BB.com envisages. Eating carbs post-workout every other day and eating high cals from p/f + veg the rest of the time will be plenty to keep your glycogen stores high.

[gogz]

whats ripptoes????

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=712752

[jaim91]

. Infact carbs pre-workout have quite the opposite effect hormonally and neurally, generally sedating.

I've heard this theory before, but do you have any proof, just for the non-believers out there?

[hobscrk777]

Here's a question for psychojoe, or anyone who feels like they have a good understanding of this whole topic: If you only get carbs in breakfast and pwo, that means you'd be getting at least 100g carbs in each of these meals, probably more (in order to meet your carb goals of the day), on top of whatever protein source you're getting in. Do you really think planting a carb bomb twice a day is beneficial?

[jaim91]

If you only get carbs in breakfast and pwo, that means you'd be getting at least 100g carbs in each of these meals,

Why? What do you mean?

Are you implying we DO or DON'T need carbs.

I think psychojoe was saying the only time we really need them is pwo. the other times, its just kind of a myth/misconception

[grapemaster]

I find myself mentally more alert, better memory etc on a higher carb varied diet than keto, I of course cut up well on keto but being spot on in my job and studies is more important to me than the muscle when it comes down to it. I constantly half to analyze stuff all day and a 40% comp carb diet plays very well to this. Blood sugar levels need to be slightly up for optimum mental performance. Also not sure how you guys workouts are but mine are quite intense and mostly compound, that same intensity is just not possible w/o adequate carbs. Same with stuff like playing basketball, baseball, football. I have done atkins/ckd/tkd and the performance is just not the same.

http://www.fi.edu/brain/carbs.htm
http://scienceweek.com/2004/sc041112-4.htm

My gf is also doing doctorate work in the field of neuroscience and any study I've seen that shes gone across all recommend a steady stream of complex carbs for optimal brain performance.

"Thus, to protect the blood levels of glucose, and to protect the glucose supply to the brain, muscle has somehow to be prevented from exhausting the blood glucose. And the method whereby this is done is threefold: first, muscle is given a good store of glucose as glycogen; second, muscle is prevented from using much glucose directly from the blood during muscular work; and third, muscle is switched over to the massive fat energy store as soon as the glycogen runs low.

The only problems with this strategy are that the rate of energy extraction from fat is much lower than that from glucose/glycogen, and that more oxygen is required to gain the same amount of energy from fat as from glucose/glycogen (and hence more blood may need to be supplied, which may in turn require a higher heart rate). Fat may be regarded as a lower-octane fuel, giving a lower rate of performance.
"
I have no doubt you can gain on keto or lower carb diets as long as your calories are sufficient, I'm sure people make really good gains, however that does *not* mean it is optimal.

[hobscrk777]

I'm saying that if we only need them breakfast and PWO, you'd have to consume a LOT of carbs in those two meals in order to get 40-50% calories in your diet from carbs.
If maybe what he's saying is that you don't need a lot of carbs at all (say under 100g) then that means you'd have to eat a LOT of protein and fat in order to hit your daily calorie needs.

Basically what I'm postulating is this: If we do in fact need carbs and eat them in 3-5 meals a day, it's pretty easy to get 200-300g of carbs supposedly needed to bulk. If we don't need carbs and only get them breakfast and PWO and maybe get 100-150g, that leaves a lot of calories left to get that must be filled with protein and fat. Just how high is it safe to take your protein and fat?

[psychojoe]

Here's a question for psychojoe, or anyone who feels like they have a good understanding of this whole topic: If you only get carbs in breakfast and pwo, that means you'd be getting at least 100g carbs in each of these meals, probably more (in order to meet your carb goals of the day), on top of whatever protein source you're getting in. Do you really think planting a carb bomb twice a day is beneficial?

Firstly, why assume we need 200g of carbs that day? If we do; no, I don't believe it would be harmful to have 2 x 100g carb meals. I would infact prefer to have them all p/w.

Im fairly sure that eating 2 x 100g gives bigger insulin spikes (higher peaks) than 4 x 50g. How the duration of those spikes is different to the 4 x 50g, I don't know. It may be that in the end the area-under-the-curve is identical and final outcome in terms of lipolysis inhibition is the same. Greater inhibition for longer, less oftong, with 2 x 100g. And less inhibition, for less time, but more ofton, with 4 x 50g. I'll look up some m&m threads about this.

If I had to make an educated guess now as to which approach would be "safest" for long-term health, and eat one way long-term, id have all my carbs in one meal per day.
Carb timing and their inclusion at all is the main focus of my interest in diet at the moment and I hope to find out a lot more about it. I'll be the first to admit that I haven't a clue about how it all ties in together in the end. In the mean time, everyone should do what has worked before, and continues to work.

[Andrew.Cook]

I've heard this theory before, but do you have any proof, just for the non-believers out there?

Not for nothing, but I'm looking at your pictures and having read through some of your other posts, and I'm not thinking that YOU are the person that I would go to for bulking advice.

...just saying.

Oh, and this has nothing to do with keto dieting (which I would never do). Keto yourself silly.

[psychojoe]

Not for nothing, but I'm looking at your pictures and having read through some of your other posts, and I'm not thinking that YOU are the person that I would go to for bulking advice.

...just saying.

was that meant to be directed at me? Id assume so, except that I dont have pictures up that I know of...

[hobscrk777]

So psychojoe - what kind of carb intake would you recommend for those who are trying to build lean mass (probably most of us here)? I have been interested in trying a timed carb diet lately. What kind of macro breakdown would an ideal diet look like then if we dont really need all those carbs?

[psychojoe]

So psychojoe - what kind of carb intake would you recommend for those who are trying to build lean mass (probably most of us here)? I have been interested in trying a timed carb diet lately. What kind of macro breakdown would an ideal diet look like then if we dont really need all those carbs?

Surely most of us are always on a timed carb diet. We dont eat carbs at every meal irrespective of their time and placement. Most people eat carbs at breakfast, pre- and post-workout, and avoid them at night. Thats timing one's carbs, no doubt.

I can't give specific recommendations - I lack the personal experience and confidence in my research to do so. I suggest that you try carbs at breakfast and post-workout only, though. Maybe oats at breakfast, and post workout. With tons of milk post-workout too. Milk is the best ****. The rest of the time, high protein of course, and experiment with the amount of fat.

I have no solid reason to advise a truely low-carb bulk, but I would be very interested if you decided to try it for a couple of weeks. Nothing to lose, surely? The anabolic diet has some seriously good reviews. If youre not familiar it essentially involves no carbs but a small amount p/w, for 5 days. Calories high. Then 1 or 2 days of a carb-up. Google for more specific info.

I question whether or not a high-fat bulk is sensible or not. I suspect that partitioning of fat is much to far on the AT side, and muscle recovery is inhibitied. Some people, however, report being able to eat WAY more calories on a high-fat diet and be lean, while high-carb bulking ensures rapid fat gain.

Its such a huge topic. TBH i cant bring anything conclusive or useful to this, except perhaps to make people aware of the controversy and differences of opinion that exist about this issue. It's such a muddle, I wonder if we will ever have a universally-accepted understanding of nutrition.

[empresscat]

Not for nothing, but I'm looking at your pictures and having read through some of your other posts, and I'm not thinking that YOU are the person that I would go to for bulking advice.

...just saying.

Oh, and this has nothing to do with keto dieting (which I would never do). Keto yourself silly.

There's a REASON she has difficulty bulking:
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpo...30&postcount=4

Though I'm looking at as many photos of people who advocate a ketogenic diet as I can, and just not seeing those who are big AND lean... though I've seen pics of people who are one or the other... so I'm remaining skeptical. (And I definitely welcome pointers to any photos I've missed.)

Not to mention, one of the favorite arguements in favor or keto is that it's how our ancestors ate (the caveman diet) is just plain wrong. Pre-agriculture societies got the bulk of their diet from roots, berries, and *small, lean* wild animals. The ratio varied depending on location. The influxes of larger amounts of protein from big game (who were also much leaner than today's commercially raised animals) came infrequently. In general, it seems that around half their calories came from carbohydrates (though these were mostly fruits and vegetables, with a few wild grains.) In most cases, the women did the daily foraging, and the men went off on hunting parties.

Their life expectancy was greater than that of earlier agricultural societies (though still nowhere close to modern life expectancies) - though diet is not the only factor. The major factor there is centralization and crowding, leading to easy spread of disease, plus increased competition for resources.

I've also read that "the Eskimo eat blubber and they don't have health problems."
Um, OK. The Inuit ("eskimo") have a high infant mortality rate, and a low life expectancy (lower than the Thai and Chinese) - according to Canadian figures - a paltry 62.6 years for men and 71.1 for women (compared to 77 and 82.2 for the general population)

Not a great arguement in favor of eating high amounts of fat - though there are many other factors, such as poverty and tobacco use, at play. They do howeve,r have a lower life expectancy than any other indegenous north americans, despite similar living conditions.

Now, there IS clear evidence linking processed foods - whether they are carbs, proteins or fats - with increased cancer and heart disease and diabetes.

I am not for or against a ketogenic diet. I may even experiment with it for a few months myself. My impression is that it works better for some people, but is not as efficient as a more balanced diet.

[Tuxd]

(1) Fat for energy or carbs for energy.

Thats the only difference. It just requires timing. Problem is carb dieters can not understand how fat dieters time their meals. Keto folks need almost 6+ hours to digest meal so it's important to keep a constant stream in but this also means keto folks don't have to worry about fluctuating diet based on activity level.

Dietary Fat != Body Fat
Dietary Carbs != Body Fat

Both get broken down in your body and the excess is converted to fat. There is no difference between the two after it is digested.

(2) Don't overestimate how much glucose your brain actually uses, it's not alot. Regardless which diet you're on you're gonna get enough if you diet properly.

(3) Mass is based on level of flexation and muscle tear NOT how many pounds you can throw down.

What folks need to understand about ketogenics is it is NOT about low carbs. Ketosis is when your body chooses to digest fats over carbs. Thats it. Keto people do not eat low carbs because carbs somehow cause fat. They eat low carbs to maintain a certain kind of chemical metabolism in their body.

Your results will be very different. Generally speaking carb bulkers will gain mass quicker but spend more time cutting. Generally speaking fat bulkers will gain mass less quickly but spend less time cutting. Generally. Which cycle is tougher for you? Different for everyone.

Many women bb's choose CKD because it keeps them close to their competition bf all year round and their competitions vary among three different categories, not all about bulk, most is about aesthetics. Male bb's usually bulk is much more important. But how many posters here are going after Ronnie's title as opposed to how many posters here are going after Brad Pitt's girlfriend? How many of you guys are natural ectomorphs, endomorphs? Just do your research and look at the bodytypes and say that's the kind of bulk I want to add. What's your weakness, whats your goal? Both have their place.

[jaim91]

Not for nothing, but I'm looking at your pictures and having read through some of your other posts, and I'm not thinking that YOU are the person that I would go to for bulking advice.

...just saying.

Oh, and this has nothing to do with keto dieting (which I would never do). Keto yourself silly.

Just because I can't doesn't mean I don't know how. I'm a second year kinesiology major. Please don't put me down until you've done your research about me - don't judge a book by its cover

thanks for backing me empress

[eatingisfun]

I don't think the OP was talking about keto anyways so I'm not sure why anyone brought it up. He wanted to know does he need much carbs to bulk when he has a sedentary job but still works out. This seems to me he's going on the traditional bb diet and not ketogenic diet. So my answer to him is that you need less carbs than if you were working construction or something but you still need enough to get your calories up to whatever you need for bulking.

[1quick1]

mmmmmmm carbs [as I slam back a shake with 1/2 cup of steel cut oats]

[tweaked17]

ladies, I don't think andrew was trying to put anyone down or insult anyone. the fact of the matter is, unless you've tried bulking both ways and are well-informed about nutrition (you are the latter, but that's only half of the equation), you're not one to be lecturing on the topic (for lack of a better description)...

there are people who read about it all day on here, in magazines/publications, in textbooks, what have you - and still don't know jack. empirical evidence and personal/anecdotal experience is king.

[Snahrl]

I've also read that "the Eskimo eat blubber and they don't have health problems."
Um, OK. The Inuit ("eskimo") have a high infant mortality rate, and a low life expectancy (lower than the Thai and Chinese) - according to Canadian figures - a paltry 62.6 years for men and 71.1 for women (compared to 77 and 82.2 for the general population)

Modern day Inuit's are westernized and eat nothing like their ancestors.

Not to mention, infant mortality is more a function of healthcare than anything else.