Which is more demanding on the CNS...

[Mad Dog162]

Deadlifts or Power cleans? (Multiple sets of both between 65% to 90% of their respective 1RMs)

Your thoughts...

[jando]

i'd go with cleans

[Blk98Bird]

deads, more demanding that squats even I believe.

[John Prophet]

hard to say...id say both

deads may be "more weight"....but are they "more force"

which do you have to really mentally focus on?

[John Prophet]

deads, more demanding that squats even I believe.

yes, on the low back....but he asked about the CNS

anyway, im not sure....both are hard

I guess most of us are way better at deads so we figure we do them WAY heavier etc....if a guy was cleaning over 300 or so then that would be pretty scorching to the cns as well

[Blk98Bird]

yes, on the low back....but he asked about the CNS

anyway, im not sure....both are hard

I guess most of us are way better at deads so we figure we do them WAY heavier etc....if a guy was cleaning over 300 or so then that would be pretty scorching to the cns as well

I was talking about the CNS as well. The intensity placed upon the entire body rivals that of the squat even. You are using lower body to drive away from the ground, you are using your entire back and arms to pull the weight towards you, you are using your traps as you come up towards lockout.

There is a reason the westside program doesn't involve a whole lot of deadlifting...and it isn't lower back strain.

[braindx]

Interesting topic, actually.

I think I'd have to go with cleans as the ones with the most weight will be those with an explosive "deadlift" as well as a full front squat. The stimulation of the entire posterior chain not once but TWICE is a force to be reckoned with especially for only one repetition.

I think that explosiveness has a higher effect on the CNS than a more pure strength movement like a DL. I would say this mainly because we know that in many of the effective russian periodization cycles the hypertrophy phases are done first, with the strength phases second and the power/explosive phases last (which are the lower 1-3 repetitions). Heavy weight is obviously going to stimulate the CNS a hell of a lot for DLs, BUT explosive power at high percentages of 1 RM especially with exercises like cleans requires full body CNS activation nearly at all once which is mostly like going to be much more than a DL.

[Killa Cris]

I'd guess power cleans because it's an explosive movement.

[Blk98Bird]

Although I see your points, I have to differ for a few reasons.

Explosive strength is more about efficiency of maximal strength. I.e. explosive strength is peak force exerted at about 50% of maximal strength. Maximal strength is about pushing past physiological boundaries, not just efficiency of power.

Additionally, an explosive movement like the clean makes use of a lot of momentum. You're using explosive power to yank the bar up then sinking into a front squat and (often) using the whip to spring back up out of position. A maximal lift like the deadlift is raw, balls out strain against heavy weights for the entirety of the lift.

Case in point, a lot of olympic athletes are trained using the same movements for days at a time without needing a whole lot of manipulation (intensity, volume, etc.). Powerlifters must back off quite frequently in order to recouperate from working with maximal weights.

[John Prophet]

There is a reason the westside program doesn't involve a whole lot of deadlifting...and it isn't lower back strain.

hehe...im not touching that one this go 'round

[John Prophet]

Case in point, a lot of olympic athletes are trained using the same movements for days at a time without needing a whole lot of manipulation (intensity, volume, etc.). Powerlifters must back off quite frequently in order to recouperate from working with maximal weights.

I have to bite on this one though

and Ill just say it bluntly....olympic lifters are generally in WAY better shape than powerlifters.....they train way more frequently with way more total load.....its not even close


btw Euro/East Block powerlifters often train squat 3-4x per week and dead 2x per week


America is basically the only low volume country, lol.....we have supersize food portions...but midget sized weekly workout loads

[braindx]

Most olympic caliber oly lifters are training periodized routines like most powerlifters... so I don't really think there is a distinction there. Although the total volume of elite athletes is waaay more than most powerlifters since they usually train 5-6+ days a week and often 3-4+ times a day even with the low reps.

The thing about power/explosiveness is that it uses a high degree of CNS activation.... while also maximal strength is basically the same as using near maximal CNS usage. Of course, we aren't talking about 95-100% of 1RM here but moreso in the 70-90% range which is a bit easier on the DLs moreso than the power cleans I think. Umm, yeah I think they are very similar actually.

I think I have to take John's position on this and kind of say both here.


P.S. Hah, well John kind of beat me to the oly athletes.

[Blk98Bird]

I have to bite on this one though

and Ill just say it bluntly....olympic lifters are generally in WAY better shape than powerlifters.....they train way more frequently with way more total load.....its not even close


btw Euro/East Block powerlifters often train squat 3-4x per week and dead 2x per week


America is basically the only low volume country, lol.....we have supersize food portions...but midget sized weekly workout loads

This is very true, but then we get into the nuances of volume and intensity. I'm foggy in this area but doesn't volume with submaximal loads (80% or less 1rm) have less of an impact upon the CNS than weekly hammering at 1rm? I have seen programs like the sheiko routine however and they look pretty grueling.

I agree that most european athletes seem to have a higher work capacity, but you must also concede that the trend is beginning to develop over here in the States. Look at the rising popularity of GPP and "extra workouts" amongst the elite level trainers.

[Blk98Bird]

Most olympic caliber oly lifters are training periodized routines like most powerlifters... so I don't really think there is a distinction there. Although the total volume of elite athletes is waaay more than most powerlifters since they usually train 5-6+ days a week and often 3-4+ times a day even with the low reps.

The thing about power/explosiveness is that it uses a high degree of CNS activation.... while also maximal strength is basically the same as using near maximal CNS usage. Of course, we aren't talking about 95-100% of 1RM here but moreso in the 70-90% range which is a bit easier on the DLs moreso than the power cleans I think. Umm, yeah I think they are very similar actually.

I think I have to take John's position on this and kind of say both here.


P.S. Hah, well John kind of beat me to the oly athletes.

Some great points, i'm enjoying this conversation .

To pick at one of them though, there are a lot of powerlifters at the elite level that also train 5-6 days a week or several times a day. This includes a lot of work with sled dragging, extra workouts to bring up weaknesses, etc.

I tend to think that any athlete at the elite level must have a rather large work capacity in order to continue making progress. It takes more work the stronger you get and it takes more work capacity to be able to rebound.

[John Prophet]

from what I have heard....the top two olympic feats as far as what takes the most horsepower

throwing a 16lb shot put 70 feet takes 9 horsepower (insanity!!)

next in line is snatching 400 lbs which takes a little over 5hp I think

the old world record snatch was 475ish lbs by Krastev back in the wild and wooly "easy to beat drug test" days......they redid all the records and the new record is about 468 by Rezazadeh

so 400 is 92.6% of 475

the best dead ever is 971 by Andy Bolton (I think, unless Benny passed him again)......so if we multiply 971 by .926 we get 899.5


so it would be interesting to see how much horsepower a 900lb dead takes

[JCVP]

Deadlifts. I do deadlifts, I'm sore 4 days after. I do Cleans; I feel rejuvenated.

[Blk98Bird]

from what I have heard....the top two olympic feats as far as what takes the most horsepower

throwing a 16lb shot put 70 feet takes 9 horsepower (insanity!!)

next in line is snatching 400 lbs which takes a little over 5hp I think

the old world record snatch was 475ish lbs by Krastev back in the wild and wooly "easy to beat drug test" days......they redid all the records and the new record is about 468 by Rezazadeh

so 400 is 92.6% of 475

the best dead ever is 971 by Andy Bolton (I think, unless Benny passed him again)......so if we multiply 971 by .926 we get 899.5


so it would be interesting to see how much horsepower a 900lb dead takes

That's some real interesting info, I don't believe i've seen that before .

[John Prophet]

I agree that most european athletes seem to have a higher work capacity, but you must also concede that the trend is beginning to develop over here in the States. Look at the rising popularity of GPP and "extra workouts" amongst the elite level trainers.

maybe...but we got a LONGGGGGG way to go baby, lol

for instance westside goes by Prilipens table....on ONE exercise.....but the table was meant to be used "per exercise"....and the oly guys would do like 4-8 exercises, lol.....5-6 days per week usually multiple times per day


you look at some of our athletes....they waddle out on stage, do one lift and look like they are going to die....im sorry, they aint got no whole lot of work capacity happening, lol


and it does get into the old "yeah, but we work 40 hours" thing....which is true...but we arent talking cultural differences here..we are talking work capacity


Paul Anderson used to do heavy squat doubles....ALL DAY LONG, all the while drinking many quarts of milk, lol.....we work up to one top set and we want a medal

[braindx]

Holy crap shot putting is more crazy than I thought.

How did you get the HP measurements John? And if they are calculating it based on work over time then you could do the same for a relatively for an "average" 900 lb DL or something. Yeah, an average 900 lb DL, haha.

[John Prophet]

That's some real interesting info, I don't believe i've seen that before .

(I made it all up....but it sounded good)

[GoJu]

as far as SET/REP RANGES go olympic lifters and powerlifters train almost the same way, except a powerlifter movements are static while an olympic lifter train with explosive moves. the explosion and the extra range of motion (all the way overhead) that olympic lifters do places a greater strain on the body as a whole than a deadlift to the waist, not saying that heavy ass weight on the deadlift bar does nothing but the nature of the clean is just far more demanding.

my first time I did a clean and jerk of 185 I felt like I was having a seizure.

[braindx]

(I made it all up....but it sounded good)

Boo.

[John Prophet]

Holy crap shot putting is more crazy than I thought.

How did you get the HP measurements John? And if they are calculating it based on work over time then you could do the same for a relatively for an "average" 900 lb DL or something. Yeah, an average 900 lb DL, haha.

like I said, I only "heard" that....on a seminar video from John Smith....throwing coach and husband of Connie Smith, one of Americas best ever women throwers

if you REALLY want to learn some stuff about lifting and overall training...study what elite throwers do

Im telling you....the average powerlifter/bb'er in America does NOT train all that hard overall, lol...(including me).....they train intensely....but not often etc.......over here we have no concept of building overall workload over time......we are locked into one level of volume and we never go above that

[braindx]

Yeah, I know. I've read a bunch of the russian periodization routines and the concepts behind them. The volume of those programs is staggering.

[John Prophet]

Boo.

only joking bro, lol......I heard it on a lecture from John Smith..I think it is somewhere on macthrowvideo.com


I can never find the links....but stuff like the training of Ulf Timmerman and Werner Guntor is some great stuff....all about periodization schemes and such

for a little taste, check the Dave Caster articles here http://www.fortifiediron.com/invisio...p?showforum=35

[dirtpool]

definitely deads, only after deads are my eyes glazed over...then all I want to do is eat non stop for the next 24 hours...

[John Prophet]

or you could do like I did last week.....do power cleans for a PR...THEN do some sets of deads

[braindx]

or you could do like I did last week.....do power cleans for a PR...THEN do some sets of deads

Did you squat or snatch after that?

[John Prophet]

lol....no, but....after doing squats one could very well do something explosive such as jumps onto a box or over a bench...or at least drop down to 50% and do some explosive squats or squat jumps

[John Prophet]

if one is bored....they could go here http://www.macthrowvideo.com/ntca_2005_sc.htm right click and download the Jud Logan and the John Smith downloads....good stuff.....have to listen to them multiple times to catch it all