A warning to all those who use creatine and protein

[mr.genetics]

I have just returned from the natriopathic doctors office and have news to share. I have been having liver and kidney problems for the last 3 weeks. As I have found out this morning, it is due to over saturation in the body of creatine and protein. My kidneys are producing too high of kreatine levels(protein made by kidneys) due to too much protein too long. My liver is suffering because of too much creatine for too long but is improving now that i have dicontinued use. The point to this thread is to warn and inform everyone what can happen if the proper procedures are not taken. As I well know, a lot of you are aware of what I'm about to say, but for those of you who don't have this knowledge I shall share it with you.

When you take creatine and at least your bodyweight in protein a day you should have the following supplements to help support your body(mainly liver and kidneys):
+fish oil
+milk thistle
+pepermint tea
+and an optional tsp of lemon juice in a cup of water first thing in the morning.
+cranberry juice and grapefruit juice
These are the few things I've learned that will not only help with you wellness while on supplements, but also for overall good health.
Thankyou for your time and hopefully some of you find this information useful.

Stay strong and healthy my brothers and sisters of iron,
Mr.Genetics

[mr.genetics]

Bump..sorry I want to make sure people read this.

[terracotta]

umm.. how much creatine (and what kind) and how much protein were you taking?

[arose70]

I'm pretty sure you don't have to bump the thread every 10 minutes...

and for 18 yrs old, you sure did a lot of damage to yourself. Are you sure you didn't have any pre-existing conditions? Taking any other meds that put extreme stress on the liver/kidney's (ie, wellbutrin) or drinking a lot of alcohol? How much water do you drink per day?

[emunah]

Funny how over ten years of reseach shows that creatine is perfectly safe.

[Ruth]

A very disturbing post. It is already well known that very high protein diets can cause damage, but I'm concerned about the Creatine.

Yes, please tell us how much you were taking.

[arose70]

It is already well known that very high protein diets can cause damage

What do you consider "very high protein"? And what studies say that it causes damage?

Just wondering your take...

[terracotta]

Well, if he wasn't taking fish oils, and was eating a lot of red meat, his omega 6's would have been high.. that wouldn't be so good. Also, cranberry juice is awesome for the kidneys.. so great..

Anyways, the post doesn't give all of the information. I am not going to start arguing over anything without the facts

[arose70]

Anyways, the post doesn't give all of the information. I am not going to start arguing over anything without the facts

Definitely...although he has my curiosity with the post that's for sure! More so to see what he was actually using.

And milk thistle is great for the liver as well--most commonly used in PCT cycles .

[emunah]

A very disturbing post. It is already well known that very high protein diets can cause damage, but I'm concerned about the Creatine.

Yes, please tell us how much you were taking.

There has never been a study showing that in healthy adults.

[arose70]

There has never been a study showing that in healthy adults.

Thanks, I didn't think so---I knew you were the study goddess .

[FOOTBALL FAN]

you must of been taking far too much creatine to do that much damage to yourself, creatine has been proved to be safe if used correctly. You should be drinking 1-2 gallons of water a day to help your kidneys if used in the correct amounts it is safe if you are taking far more than your body can process then it can lead to problems. And the same goes for protein, over a prolonged period of time too much protein can have a damaging effect but if you are taking in 1-1.5g per lb of body weight you should be fine

[Ruth]

There has never been a study showing that in healthy adults.

Well, I probably should have kept out of nutrition threads, since people appear to believe what they want to believe about the stuff they are taking.

The health risks of high protein diets have been discussed in earlier threads I contributed to and are not risks I would personally be willing to take. In general I mistrust any diet that has vastly unnatural amounts of a single nutrient.

[arose70]

Well, I probably should have kept out of nutrition threads, since people appear to believe what they want to believe about the stuff they are taking.

The health risks of high protein diets have been discussed in earlier threads I contributed to and are not risks I would personally be willing to take. In general I mistrust any diet that has vastly unnatural amounts of a single nutrient.

Can you post some studies that say this?

Is your diet 33c/33p/33f? ( Iknow it's off 1 gram of something...I just didn't want to put all the .33333333333333333 ).

[mr.genetics]

Alright sorry about my tardiness in response to all of this. I was out for most of the day getting some recovery products and at the gym. Alright lets get started...
1) I weighed (lost 10 lbs since i got sick gained 6 back though )193lbs and was eating about 300 grams of protein a day.
2) I always cycled my creatine but now that there are these new kinds that apparently you don't have to cycle, I haven't cycled in at least 6 - 8 months (apparently not a good idea). I was taking the recommended dose on the bottle of EFX Krea-alkyline but the bottle is slightly confuseing because it says two different recommended doses(I don't know why) so I took 15ml a day.
3)No I didn't have any pre-existing conditions, I was very healthy up until about a month ago when I became ill.(and arose how the hell did you know i was 18?)
4)Im not on my death bed or anything from this stuff guys. I think some of you took my original post the wrong way and thought I was very very ill.
5)To those of you who said that creatine isn't harmful, you are dead wrong. If done properly it isn't harmful. Apparently I goofed up unbenounced to myself when I actually belived the no cycling garbage.
6)This one goes to terracotta. No I was not taking fish oils or flax seed or anything to that measure and belive me I regret it badly now. I used my own judgement on that and couldn't justify spending any money on it(stupid i know). I was eating a lot of red meat and chicken too.
7)I have been given a hold off on the creatine for 1 full year and cannot ingest whey protein for at least 3 months or until blood work shows im back to normal kidney function. I plan to use this time as a experiment to see how much lean body mass I can put on. I should be able to put all my weight back on by the end of next week as I am (not being cocky if its taken that way, just stating for purposes here)genetically gifted in the size department.(not uncommon for me to put on a lean 20 - 25lbs a year). Im interested to see how much lean weight I can gain from not using creatine and will continue the protein after I am cleared to do so. If you have any more questions fire them my way and I'll answer them for you gladly.

Thanks a lot for listining/reading,
Mr.Genetics

[emunah]

Long-term creatine supplementation does not significantly affect clinical markers of health in athletes.Kreider RB, Melton C, Rasmussen CJ, Greenwood M, Lancaster S, Cantler EC, Milnor P, Almada AL.
Exercise and Sport Nutrition Laboratory, Department of Human Movement Sciences and Education, The University of Memphis, Memphis, TN, USA. Richard_Kreider@baylor.edu

Creatine has been reported to be an effective ergogenic aid for athletes. However, concerns have been raised regarding the long-term safety of creatine supplementation. This study examined the effects of long-term creatine supplementation on a 69-item panel of serum, whole blood, and urinary markers of clinical health status in athletes. Over a 21-month period, 98 Division IA college football players were administered in an open label manner creatine or non-creatine containing supplements following training sessions. Subjects who ingested creatine were administered 15.75 g/day of creatine monohydrate for 5 days and an average of 5 g/day thereafter in 5-10 g/day doses. Fasting blood and 24-h urine samples were collected at 0, 1, 1.5, 4, 6, 10, 12, 17, and 21 months of training. A comprehensive quantitative clinical chemistry panel was determined on serum and whole blood samples (metabolic markers, muscle and liver enzymes, electrolytes, lipid profiles, hematological markers, and lymphocytes). In addition, urine samples were quantitatively and qualitative analyzed to assess clinical status and renal function. At the end of the study, subjects were categorized into groups that did not take creatine (n = 44) and subjects who took creatine for 0-6 months (mean 4.4 +/- 1.8 months, n = 12), 7-12 months (mean 9.3 +/- 2.0 months, n = 25), and 12-21 months (mean 19.3 +/- 2.4 months, n = 17). Baseline and the subjects' final blood and urine samples were analyzed by MANOVA and 2 x 2 repeated measures ANOVA univariate tests. MANOVA revealed no significant differences (p = 0.51) among groups in the 54-item panel of quantitative blood and urine markers assessed. Univariate analysis revealed no clinically significant interactions among groups in markers of clinical status. In addition, no apparent differences were observed among groups in the 15-item panel of qualitative urine markers. Results indicate that long-term creatine supplementation (up to 21-months) does not appear to adversely effect markers of health status in athletes undergoing intense training in comparison to athletes who do not take creatine.

Sports Med. 2000 Sep;30(3):155-70. Links
Adverse effects of creatine supplementation: fact or fiction?Poortmans JR, Francaux M.
Physiological Chemistry, Higher Institute of Physical Education and Readaptation, Free University of Brussels, Bruxelles, Belgium. jrpoortm@ulb.ac.be

The consumption of oral creatine monohydrate has become increasingly common among professional and amateur athletes. Despite numerous publications on the ergogenic effects of this naturally occurring substance, there is little information on the possible adverse effects of this supplement. The objectives of this review are to identify the scientific facts and contrast them with reports in the news media, which have repeatedly emphasised the health risks of creatine supplementation and do not hesitate to draw broad conclusions from individual case reports. Exogenous creatine supplements are often consumed by athletes in amounts of up to 20 g/day for a few days, followed by 1 to 10 g/day for weeks, months and even years. Usually, consumers do not report any adverse effects, but body mass increases. There are few reports that creatine supplementation has protective effects in heart, muscle and neurological diseases. Gastrointestinal disturbances and muscle cramps have been reported occasionally in healthy individuals, but the effects are anecdotal. Liver and kidney dysfunction have also been suggested on the basis of small changes in markers of organ function and of occasional case reports, but well controlled studies on the adverse effects of exogenous creatine supplementation are almost nonexistent. We have investigated liver changes during medium term (4 weeks) creatine supplementation in young athletes. None showed any evidence of dysfunction on the basis of serum enzymes and urea production. Short term (5 days), medium term (9 weeks) and long term (up to 5 years) oral creatine supplementation has been studied in small cohorts of athletes whose kidney function was monitored by clearance methods and urine protein excretion rate. We did not find any adverse effects on renal function.

Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2001 Feb;33(2):183-8. Links
Creatine supplementation and health variables: a retrospective study.Schilling BK, Stone MH, Utter A, Kearney JT, Johnson M, Coglianese R, Smith L, O'Bryant HS, Fry AC, Starks M, Keith R, Stone ME.
Exercise Science, Appalachian State University, Boone, NC, USA.

PURPOSE: Long-term safety of creatine supplementation has been questioned. This retrospective study was performed to examine markers related to health, the incidence of reported side effects and the perceived training benefits in athletes supplementing with creatine monohydrate. METHODS: Twenty-six athletes (18 M and 8 F, 24.7 +/- 9.2 y; 82.4 +/- 20.0 kg; 176.5 +/- 8.8 cm) from various sports were used as subjects. Blood was collected between 7:00 and 8:30 a.m. after a 12-h fast. Standard clinical examination was performed for CBC and 27 blood chemistries. Testosterone, cortisol, and growth hormone were analyzed using an ELISA. Subjects answered a questionnaire on dietary habits, creatine supplementation, medical history, training history, and perceived effects of supplementation. Body mass was measured using a medical scale, body composition was estimated using skinfolds, and resting heart rate and blood pressure were recorded. Subjects were grouped by supplementation length or no use: Gp1 (control) = no use (N = 7; 3 F, 4 M); Gp2 = 0.8-1.0 yr (N = 9; 2 F, 7 M); and Gp3 = 1(+) (N = 10; 3 F, 7 M). RESULTS: Creatine supplementation ranged from 0.8--4 yr. Mean loading dose for Gp2 and Gp3 was 13.7 +/- 10.0 and the maintenance dose was 9.7 +/- 5.7 g.d(-)1. Group differences were analyzed using one-way ANOVA. CONCLUSIONS: Expected gender differences were observed. Of the comparisons made among supplementation groups, only two differences for creatinine and total protein (P < 0.05) were noted. All group means fell within normal clinical ranges. There were no differences in the reported incidence of muscle injury, cramps, or other side effects. These data suggest that long-term creatine supplementation does not result in adverse health effects.

Int J Sport Nutr Exerc Metab. 2002 Dec;12(4):453-60. Links
Effects of long-term creatine supplementation on liver and kidney functions in American college football players.Mayhew DL, Mayhew JL, Ware JS.
Exercise Science Program, Truman State University, Kirksville, MO 63501, USA.

The purpose of this study was to determine the effect of long-term Cr supplementation on blood parameters reflecting liver and kidney function. Twenty-three members of an NCAA Division II American football team (ages = 19-24 years) with at least 2 years of strength training experience were divided into a Cr monohydrate group (CrM, n = 10) in which they voluntarily and spontaneously ingested creatine, and a control group (n = 13) in which they took no supplements. Individuals in the CrM group averaged regular daily consumption of 5 to 20 g (mean SD = 13.9 5.8 g) for 0.25 to 5.6 years (2.9 1.8 years). Venous blood analysis for serum albumin, alkaline phosphatase, alanine aminotransferase, aspartate aminotransferase, bilirubin, urea, and creatinine produced no significant differences between groups. Creatinine clearance was estimated from serum creatinine and was not significantly different between groups. Within the CrM group, correlations between all blood parameters and either daily dosage or duration of supplementation were nonsignificant. Therefore, it appears that oral supplementation with CrM has no long-term detrimental effects on kidney or liver functions in highly trained college athletes in the absence of other nutritional supplements.

[terracotta]

Emunah, you are great

To the OP - I looked up Kre-alkyline and umm.. it seemed fishy or odd or something, and I didn't trust it, so I went with V12. I don't know which ingredient causes their warning, but it says to take a 1 month break every 2 months.

[sherdi]

Here are some great comments made by Emma-Leigh about creatine...I don't know why people get the wrong idea about it *sigh* Anyway, here it is:

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpo...&postcount=916

[arose70]

and arose how the hell did you know i was 18?)

search function is a great thing---I just wanted to make sure you weren't a 88 year old man with cirrhosis who then took whey and creatine.

Im interested to see how much lean weight I can gain from not using creatine and will continue the protein after I am cleared to do so.

Well, creatine and whey are just supplements, you should do just fine without them!

[emunah]

Creatine just helps with recovery. You can gain lean weight very easily without it. Eat over maintenance, pick up a heavy weight, put it down, repeat.

Progressive overload.

[mr.genetics]

Emunah, you are great

To the OP - I looked up Kre-alkyline and umm.. it seemed fishy or odd or something, and I didn't trust it, so I went with V12. I don't know which ingredient causes their warning, but it says to take a 1 month break every 2 months.

Thank you for the information you have provided here about the one month break on Kre-alkyline. I didn't know this and obviously didn't take that time off. Now to clear something up; I think people took this thread like I was bashing these supplements. That was not my intention at all and I appologize if you took it that way. I love and owe a lot of my training and gains to whey powder for sure. As far as the creatine goes, I was using a new and apparently controvercial type of creatine that I didn't cycle properly. This thread was only made to make people aware of the risk and effect that could happen if you took the same path unknowingly like I have. I am 100% sure without any question that my body has reached a level of saturation and can not handle anymore. There was no pre-existing condition and have the lab results. I was also not taking the proper support that I should have been taking all along regardless if I was taking creatine or not and that also contributes. If any of you have any more comments or questions at all please don't hesitate to ask or state them. I'm all ears and love to hear your feedback.
Keep strong and healthy,
Mr.Genetics

[mr.genetics]

Creatine just helps with recovery. You can gain lean weight very easily without it. Eat over maintenance, pick up a heavy weight, put it down, repeat.

Progressive overload.

Was there ever any other way?....

[mr.genetics]

Here are some great comments made by Emma-Leigh about creatine...I don't know why people get the wrong idea about it *sigh* Anyway, here it is:

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpo...&postcount=916

I don't have the wrong idea about it....I got sick. Case closed.(I love creatine I'm not here to tarnish its name)

[FitGirlTrainer]

Thank you for the information you have provided here about the one month break on Kre-alkyline. I didn't know this and obviously didn't take that time off. Now to clear something up; I think people took this thread like I was bashing these supplements. That was not my intention at all and I appologize if you took it that way. I love and owe a lot of my training and gains to whey powder for sure. As far as the creatine goes, I was using a new and apparently controvercial type of creatine that I didn't cycle properly. This thread was only made to make people aware of the risk and effect that could happen if you took the same path unknowingly like I have. I am 100% sure without any question that my body has reached a level of saturation and can not handle anymore. There was no pre-existing condition and have the lab results. I was also not taking the proper support that I should have been taking all along regardless if I was taking creatine or not and that also contributes. If any of you have any more comments or questions at all please don't hesitate to ask or state them. I'm all ears and love to hear your feedback.
Keep strong and healthy,
Mr.Genetics

Thanks for the post, Mr. G. I know I always want to hear people's experiences and appreciate when they say what they liked and why and what may have caused problems and why.

Get better!
FGT

[ossizen]

If you're not taking in enough fluids, you may cause havoc with your body, but anyone with a brain would drink lots of water when bumping up their protein intake and/or taking creatine.

Just my two cents worth.

[mr.genetics]

If you're not taking in enough fluids, you may cause havoc with your body, but anyone with a brain would drink lots of water when bumping up their protein intake and/or taking creatine.

Just my two cents worth.

I drank enough water to fill a bathtub

[mr.genetics]

Thanks for the post, Mr. G. I know I always want to hear people's experiences and appreciate when they say what they liked and why and what may have caused problems and why.

Get better!
FGT

Thanks for the support, and glad I could help.

[MsFit]

You need to drink a LOT of water on high protein diets and when taking creatine.

[mr.genetics]

Yeah i know that, but I probably didn't drink enough. Thanks for all your input evryone.
Stay healthy and strong,
Mr.Genetics

[egoatdoor]

If you're not taking in enough fluids, you may cause havoc with your body, but anyone with a brain would drink lots of water when bumping up their protein intake and/or taking creatine.

Just my two cents worth.

My thoughts exactly.

This thread to me is very alarmist.