WSB... where's the DLs?

[Jay D]

I've been checking out Westside and like what I hear. When do you do deads? All I see is squat and bench work.

[Lee_5]

with WSB squat and deadlift are trained as one. its plsit into upper body and lower body. so when you train lower boyd you;re training the squat and the deadlift. but you wont max out on both of them. just pick one to max out on on ME day.

[John Prophet]

I am not sure of their latest approach to it....but in general they dont train deadlift per se....as a matter of fact they dont really specificially train any of the "big 3" with heavy weights (like I say, maybe it has changed some since I checked it out)

instead what they do is train movements that are similar to the actual competition exercises....they pick one exercise and work up to a max with it....then they go into supplemantary and accesory work

they basically train 4 days a week like this (not in this order)

Max effort day for 'squats'
Max effort day for bench
dynamic (speed) day for squats
dynamic day for bench

there isnt really a "deadlift" day because the exercises used on the squat day uses all of the same muscles

for instance here is a list of the exercises they might use on squat day....remember, they only use one main exercise per workout (then they go to supplementary work etc)

various good mornings
various box squats
partial deads
various band squats
dead variations such as reverse band deads


so, they dont actualy train the squat OR dead with heavy weights....they train heavy with exercises that use the same muscles...pretty much same thing with bench.....instead of actual max effort work with benches they do:

various board presses
floor press
close grip incline press
etc


now, they also have the dynamic day in which they do box squats and on the other day benches....for like 8 sets of 3 explosively with weights in the 50-65% range

on occasion they do some speed deads after speed squats.....for years they didnt do deads at all but then they found theyd show up to a meet and not know where to stand in front of the bar etc, lol....so they started throwing in some speed deads


so you dont see deads being trained...in reality you dont see squats being trained either....you mainly see box squats...some Westsiders wont do actual squats except at the meet


that is westside in a nutshell.....using exercises similar to the main exercises and maxing every week, switching exercises every week and also using a speed day to build explosiveness

so unless they have changed something recently they dont directly train heavy deadlift




of course, I am explaining all of this....doesnt mean I think it is perfect....I like a lot of it but not all of it and a lot of people think it is foolish to totally drop deads and/or drop heavy training on the actual competition exercises

in the Russian literature that Louie used to develop Westside, it says explicitly that the accessory exercises can NOT actually REPLACE the competition exercises (Louie ignored that part, lol)......BUT I think the catch there is that the Olympic lifts have a MUCH higher technique and skill level that needs to be maintained....by comparison, though there is some skill level and technique with powerlifting it is nowhere near what is needed for a heavy snatch for instance.....I think that is why Westside is able to basically replace the powerlifts with other exercises in training and still be able to show up at a meet and have good form on the "big 3" powerlifts

[sbrown_c4l]

I read an article last night where dave tate said he never did any real deadlifting for an entire training cycle, and it went up 40lbs, but on comp day he forgot how to place his feet

[Jneves]

I have to agree with what has been said, most people who use the west side templete don't do much for deadlift because they don't find it necassary. However this is the great thing about this system, its very flexable so if you need more deadlift work do more deadlift work. I know of at least a few guys who have actually spent time with Simmons who do some type of pull almost every lower body session

[VikingMan]

It's worth noting that TRUE Westside Barbell is really only used by the strongest men in the country. We're talking guys who at the weakest are benching 500+, pulling 700+, and squatting 800+. Many of them much more than that. A few are squatting a grand. At those poundages, it get's somewhat CNS prohibitive to actually train the deadlift and the full free squat at 90% or greater weights with any kind of regularity. So, they train the muscles involved with movements that have an actual carryover to their competition movements. So, if they add 50LBS to their band box squats, for example, they are relatively assured that they have added 50LBS to the full competition squat.

HOWEVER!!!!!!!!!

If you aren't already as strong as those guys, or nearly so, it's probably best to focus on the basics. Westside, in it's most basic form, is a form of periodization. Which very simply is NOT neccessary to make kick ass progress when you are weak. So, stick to the basic movements, and start actually using conjugate periodization when your progress stops on those basic movements. Though box squatting is always a good idea, as it teaches you how to squat correctly, sitting back and all that.

My westside program right now is actually only kinda a westside program. I am still using full squats and deads for lower body max effort work, and getting great strength gains. When I squatted 4 plates past parallel the other day, it felt like nothing. I'll start using more of a rotation for the max effort lifts when my progress slows. No sense fixing it if it aint broke.

I am however using more true conjugate periodization for my bench. Because at my strength level on that, I can't just keep banging away at flat bench and still make progress. So I switch bi-weekly between incline, decline, and flat, and I'm about to throw in floor presses.

Another thought that basically came from a discussion between myself and SGTRobo, who happens to be very knowlegable in westside, is the fact that I am not using DE work. I use 3 ME lifts every 8-9 days. Here's what it looks like.

ME Lower Conventional Deads
RE Upper
ME Lower ATG Squats
ME Upper Bench (Decline, Flat, Incline)

I've been able to hang with this with great results. I have at least 1 day off between each session, sometimes two.

The reason I can hang with this is because I'm still weak, in terms of where I want to go. I do have to deload every 4 weeks or so, but that's hardly surprising.

So, just some thoughts about westside. If you're not already as strong as the guys in Ohio, no sense completely following their protocols when you'd actually get better progress for your strength levels by tweaking them a bit.

[and911]

i do my deads when i do my legs and back

[VikingMan]

Originally Posted by sbrown_c4l

I read an article last night where dave tate said he never did any real deadlifting for an entire training cycle, and it went up 40lbs, but on comp day he forgot how to place his feet

I think I read that article the other day as well. Dave's problem was two fold. First, he doesn't ever really pull in training, only in competition. Thus, there's a level of specificity that he looses, IMO, as a result. Second, the deadlift doesn't feel natural to him. He and Simmons rather think there are those who were born to pull. The movement feels natural to them. I consider myself one of the lucky ones. Pulling has always felt like a completely natural movement. Then there are those who weren't, pulling feels mechanically difficult and challenging to them. They would also probably benefit from more actual pulling, especially as the comp nears, for a greater level of specificity in the lift.

Just some thoughts.

[mjw8204]

Originally Posted by and911

i do my deads when i do my legs and back

How very relevant. Thank you.

[VikingMan]

Originally Posted by mjw8204

How very relevant. Thank you.

I had that thought. LOL

[Lencho]

Originally Posted by mjw8204

How very irrelevant. Thank you.

Note edit.

[user25891]

Something to remember as well, WSB isnt training "muscle groups" they are training LIFTS. As a competitive PL gym only, there aren't any BBers to be found.

Originally Posted by John Prophet

so, they dont actualy train the squat OR dead with heavy weights....they train heavy with exercises that use the same muscles...pretty much same thing with bench.....instead of actual max effort work with benches they do:

This is an incorrect statement. There is lots of heavy squatting that goes on there. Its not a free squat with a straight bar, but lots of squatting is done. Also, DL variations are done heavy as well, wether it be low pin rack pulls, pulls against bands from the floor, etc. Also, many of the 3 lift guys who train there will do a circa-maximal phase with outrageous band tension and moderate bar weight up to meet time, usually taking 1-3 weeks prior to the meet to allow for supercompensation pre-meet time.

Jason

[John Prophet]

Originally Posted by Jason Pegg

This is an incorrect statement. There is lots of heavy squatting that goes on there. Its not a free squat with a straight bar, but lots of squatting is done. Also, DL variations are done heavy as well, wether it be low pin rack pulls, pulls against bands from the floor, etc. Also, many of the 3 lift guys who train there will do a circa-maximal phase with outrageous band tension and moderate bar weight up to meet time, usually taking 1-3 weeks prior to the meet to allow for supercompensation pre-meet time.

Jason

I guess we could split hairs all day to see how thin the hair would get....I am working from the viewpoint that a rack pull is not a dead, a box squat is not a squat...I have yet to see anyone have a box under them at a meet......yes, of course they do "soem form" of squats...generally box squats....but a box squat is not "the squat".....so I stand by what I said and I am not sure how it can really be disputed.....one of the main "westside" protocols is that they DONT train the competition lifts in training

I guess if it was important enough to me I could find 10 quotes by Louie stating that explicitly

[Lee_5]

Originally Posted by and911

i do my deads when i do my legs and back

ah wicked. ill let Dave Tate know. hopefully he;ll right an article on it.

[Retardo-pex]

I was using westside in highschool and like VM said you might need to tweak it to suit your own strength levels/goals. I used the DE days simply because I was a track and field thrower so the more explosive training the better. Did the DE days help raise my maxes in the big 3? I haven't had a conclusive study on myself proving they didn't and my lifts were going up, but it could have been just from the heavy work, I was really fast though as well :P

I actually never did much deadlift variations while on this sytem because it was enough of a hassel to fit my olympic lifts in my workouts. My deadlift did go up slightly, the only thing I would recomend is doing some kind of heavy grip work if you are doing no type of deadlift. Once I started doing some rack pulls and heavy barbell shrugs my dead really went up just due to the fact I could actually hold the weight in my hands.

Westside is a pretty fun workout though, you basically get to do a different workout each session, and the heavy goodmornings are gold for perfecting your squat.

[FortifiedIron]

I hope to get to sit down with Louie soon and spend some time with him. I have alot of questions to ask him inregards to his deadlifting methods. From what I've seen of them as of late they have noticed the flaw. The idea that they can increase their deadlift by squatting worked up to a certain point. If you look at some of the training journals you will see that they dont put as much volume into the squat as they used to and started doing more deadlifts and deadlift assistance movements.

Kc

[RipStone]

Originally Posted by FortifiedIron

I hope to get to sit down with Louie soon and spend some time with him. I have alot of questions to ask him inregards to his deadlifting methods. From what I've seen of them as of late they have noticed the flaw. The idea that they can increase their deadlift by squatting worked up to a certain point. If you look at some of the training journals you will see that they dont put as much volume into the squat as they used to and started doing more deadlifts and deadlift assistance movements.

Kc

You going to publish this interview if and when it happens? That would be a great read I bet!

[FortifiedIron]

Originally Posted by RipStone

You going to publish this interview if and when it happens? That would be a great read I bet!

I should get to visit him alot and get some keen insight in WS that you dont get to read about. I doubt I will publish everything but Id love to shoot some media interviews with him or some audio interviews with him.

Kc

[user25891]

Originally Posted by John Prophet

I guess we could split hairs all day to see how thin the hair would get....I am working from the viewpoint that a rack pull is not a dead, a box squat is not a squat...I have yet to see anyone have a box under them at a meet......yes, of course they do "soem form" of squats...generally box squats....but a box squat is not "the squat".....so I stand by what I said and I am not sure how it can really be disputed.....one of the main "westside" protocols is that they DONT train the competition lifts in training

I guess if it was important enough to me I could find 10 quotes by Louie stating that explicitly

Well, did you even read what I wrote, or did yu not make it past the first line of the post I quoted? I specifically said most don't free squat. Im just surprised to see a guy who knows lots of the program be so close minded and not see a below the knee pin pull as a DL variation, or a box squat isn't a squat variation.

[VikingMan]

Originally Posted by FortifiedIron

I hope to get to sit down with Louie soon and spend some time with him. I have alot of questions to ask him inregards to his deadlifting methods. From what I've seen of them as of late they have noticed the flaw. The idea that they can increase their deadlift by squatting worked up to a certain point. If you look at some of the training journals you will see that they dont put as much volume into the squat as they used to and started doing more deadlifts and deadlift assistance movements.

Kc

We've been talking about this quite a lot lately. The biggest question is why guys like Benni can pull 950 (or whatever the hell he pulls), and the westside boys are "only" pulling in the 700's. It seems you could make a direct correlation between their lack of deadlifting in training, and their lower pulling numbers in competition. I'd pay money to be a fly on the wall when you talked to Simmons. Damn that would be cool.

[John Prophet]

hehe

I am just saying this..plain and simple...they dont train the competition lifts

case closed


do they train variations?...of course.....but even at that....from what I have read they do Good Mornings from 50-70% of the time on Squat ME day.....so even the rack pulls and box squats arent done every week


anyway...im not here to argue....Im in Virginia, they are on Ohio...I dont lose too much sleep about what goes on up there, lol

[FortifiedIron]

Originally Posted by John Prophet

hehe

I am just saying this..plain and simple...they dont train the competition lifts

case closed


do they train variations?...of course.....but even at that....from what I have read they do Good Mornings from 50-70% of the time on Squat ME day.....so even the rack pulls and box squats arent done every week


anyway...im not here to argue....Im in Virginia, they are on Ohio...I dont lose too much sleep about what goes on up there, lol

I live in Virginia right now and Id be more than willing to pick you up when Marty and I make a trip to visit WSB... wont cost you a dime either... I will pay for it.

Kc

[FortifiedIron]

Originally Posted by VikingMan

We've been talking about this quite a lot lately. The biggest question is why guys like Benni can pull 950 (or whatever the hell he pulls), and the westside boys are "only" pulling in the 700's. It seems you could make a direct correlation between their lack of deadlifting in training, and their lower pulling numbers in competition. I'd pay money to be a fly on the wall when you talked to Simmons. Damn that would be cool.

Benni is your exact example of a none American lol.. He is not caught up in the bench hype. Benni just wants to deadlift a grand and thats all, he even states that.

The thing is you have to maniuplate your volume and total work load. Just like every other sport you do what you have to do to win and be the best. The sport of powerlifting is determined by 3 lifts and a total. If you can bench press 800lbs and squat 1000lbs in a meet you have a pretty damn good chance of winning... even if you only pull 700 pounds. A 700 pound deadlift is impressive.. but a 800 or 900 pound deadlift isnt needed to win. The question is why waste your extra time and energy training for that 800lb deadlift when you can use it and add 50 pounds to your squat?

Kc

[VikingMan]

Originally Posted by FortifiedIron

I live in Virginia right now and Id be more than willing to pick you up when Marty and I make a trip to visit WSB... wont cost you a dime either... I will pay for it.

Kc

Don't bother. John thinks WSB has it all wrong. That they only took what they wanted out of the Russian manuals they read, and that they training is lacking because of it. I'm still trying to figure it all out exactly...

*sorry john, *

[VikingMan]

Originally Posted by FortifiedIron

The thing is you have to maniuplate your volume and total work load. Just like every other sport you do what you have to do to win and be the best. The sport of powerlifting is determined by 3 lifts and a total. If you can bench press 800lbs and squat 1000lbs in a meet you have a pretty damn good chance of winning... even if you only pull 700 pounds. A 700 pound deadlift is impressive.. but a 800 or 900 pound deadlift isnt needed to win. The question is why waste your extra time and energy training for that 800lb deadlift when you can use it and add 50 pounds to your squat?

Yeah, it would be more interesting to me if they had similar pulling numbers as squat. But, I'm not the one totalling 2500 yet, so what do I know?

[mjw8204]

Originally Posted by VikingMan

Don't bother. John thinks WSB has it all wrong. That they only took what they wanted out of the Russian manuals they read, and that they training is lacking because of it. I'm still trying to figure it all out exactly...

*sorry john, *

Well, we'd know more if John would elaborate for us; but he won't. Stubborn ox.

[John Prophet]

lol

look...everyone worships Louie and Westside like they are gods.....I dont.....I give Louie all the credit in the world for bringing a more organized thought process to America....for "opening up" the iron curtain ideas for us all

but Im not into hero worship

as u can see..even in this thread I simply said that they dont train the competition exerices...this is basically just a cold fact..its not a "cut" or any kind of put down....it is a fact the same as "a square has four 90 degree angles"...simply a statement of fact.....yet even at that you can see that people get all upset

its so stupid....and I dont know why I bother responding to anything that has to do with westside, lol....people act like its a religion, lol

I think it is hilarious myself.....people hold whatever Louie says as if he is a god.....if one says "maybe there is a better way or some tweaks to improve westside", that person is looked upon as a heretic.....which to me is super-ironic considering Louie changes his own mind and methods on a regular basis

so you people who are into hero worship, knock yourself out....travel to Mecca, visit the pyramids, climb Mt Olympus, stand in the shadow of the gods, lol

what you all fail to realize is that Louie GOT WHERE HE IS now from QUESTIONING WHAT CAME BEFORE HIM and looking for a better way


so forgive me if I do the same


and I didnt even DO that in this thread ...I simply took my time to try to answer someones question.....but there was still the tension creeping in, lol.......its hilarious but it gets old.....Westside is about halfway to becoming a cult such as HIT

JP

[VikingMan]

Originally Posted by John Prophet

so forgive me if I do the same

Hey John, what does Louie himself squat, like 900LBS or something? And he's like 50 years old! Don't you think that lends a little bit of "weight", so to speak, to his ideas and methodologies?

It's not a cult. It's a following of people who are addicted to results. And WSB delivers. Does it change? Do different people running it end up modifying it? Sure. But the basics are still there, the stuff Louie implemented out of the Russian material, Max Effort, Dynamic Effort work, and rotating of Max Effort lifts, etc. I myself have made some changes to the basics of the program, and I've gone from deadlifting 405 X 5 3-4 months ago, to pulling 525 yesterday. But I'm still using the basics. It's not a cult man. And those who would question the changes you would make to WSB simply want to see a reason why. AND, some results to back up your thoughts. I mean, if WSB started following your ideas instead of Louie's, are they all going to add 100LBS to their squats?

The guys who follow HIT do make it almost a religion. There's NO other way to train. Period. If you're not doing HIT, then you're overtraining. They ignore the VAST majority of research and practicle results in the world from every other training paradigm. WSB does not do that. And I resent the implication that WSB guys are like the HIT Jedi. I would recommend any of half a dozen programs or more to someone looking for a way to train. HIT guys don't.

It's just that if you're going to say WSB has it wrong, or there is a better way to train, best to have results to back it up.

[Lee_5]

so when do they do deads?

[FortifiedIron]

Originally Posted by John Prophet

lol

look...everyone worships Louie and Westside like they are gods.....I dont.....I give Louie all the credit in the world for bringing a more organized thought process to America....for "opening up" the iron curtain ideas for us all

but Im not into hero worship

as u can see..even in this thread I simply said that they dont train the competition exerices...this is basically just a cold fact..its not a "cut" or any kind of put down....it is a fact the same as "a square has four 90 degree angles"...simply a statement of fact.....yet even at that you can see that people get all upset

its so stupid....and I dont know why I bother responding to anything that has to do with westside, lol....people act like its a religion, lol

I think it is hilarious myself.....people hold whatever Louie says as if he is a god.....if one says "maybe there is a better way or some tweaks to improve westside", that person is looked upon as a heretic.....which to me is super-ironic considering Louie changes his own mind and methods on a regular basis

so you people who are into hero worship, knock yourself out....travel to Mecca, visit the pyramids, climb Mt Olympus, stand in the shadow of the gods, lol

what you all fail to realize is that Louie GOT WHERE HE IS now from QUESTIONING WHAT CAME BEFORE HIM and looking for a better way


so forgive me if I do the same


and I didnt even DO that in this thread ...I simply took my time to try to answer someones question.....but there was still the tension creeping in, lol.......its hilarious but it gets old.....Westside is about halfway to becoming a cult such as HIT

JP

I hope I dont get included in this cult. I dissagree with a fair bit of what Louie has to say, but I dont ever count out anything till i hear from the source itself. I've never trained WS and I dont plan on it... and I will never tout them as being the 'best'. Its a very good method yes and it does work very well, but not everybody can benefit from it.

I've done stated the exact reason why they dont spend as much energy deadlifting as they do squatting or benching. Its a sports specific reason and an athlete will do what an athlete has to do to win.. simple as that.

Kc