Taking your supplements during your 1 week rest

[Energizer1000]

I am currently on Creatine and NO2. I Understand that if it is a regular rest day such as the 3 day off, on a 4 day split, you will continue to supplement and in my case continue taking the NO2 and the Creatine.

However, I plan to take a one week rest after several months of working out following my weekly workout split. My question now is, do I continue supplementing with Creatine and NO2 for the one week that I will rest?

[Stenn]

I've heard it said often that it's a good idea to go off your supplements every now and then so that your body doesn't get too accustomed to them. This is particularly the case with creatine. So, how about not taking ANY supplements during your week off?

[Too Small]

Yes, it is a good idea to take time off your supps...especially Creatine. If you take a week or two off from training, stop your supplements.

[Energizer1000]

am scared I might shrink or something!

[Stenn]

am scared I might shrink or something!

Creatine hydrates your muscles making them larger. Going off the creatine will cause you to deflate a bit, but I can't imagine a week off making that big a difference. When you get back on the creatine, you'll rehydrate and be back where you started.

[Fritobandito]

Your muscle mass won't shrink, but if you stop taking Creatine you will lose a couple pounds of water. When I stop I typically lose 5-6 pounds of stored water.

-Fritobandito

[Energizer1000]

Ok thanks guys! What about the NO2, do i still drink it during my week off? I wont be pumping anyway, so MAYBE that stuff is not needed??? ...Now I am worried that I will look smaller LOL

[dbx]

Ok thanks guys! What about the NO2, do i still drink it during my week off? I wont be pumping anyway, so MAYBE that stuff is not needed??? ...Now I am worried that I will look smaller LOL

I disagree with some advice you've been given so far. It's really not known if it's even necessary to cycle off creatine, but some companies recommend cycling off every 3-4 months and I think it's a good idea. However, don't stop taking it just because you're taking a one week break. In fact, if you've been taking it steady for say, 8wks, just keep taking it during your break.

Now NO products are a different story. You absolutely don't need to take it during your break. There are different off cycles you can go by. I choose one month on, 1 week off. But you can do: 1 month on, 1 month off...... 2 months on, 1 month off............1mth on, 2wks off. It really depends on a few things. Becoming insensitive to caffeine is a big concern not only for you, but for the company who's product you're buying. They want you to feel the "rush". If you don't cycle off, you'll find this effect greatly diminish.....and either take more..........or go find another product. You may not think your NO product has caffeine, but the large majority out there have caffeine, sometimes better know by "methylxanthine". Yes, cycle off NO. Prolonged use can also cause hypertension and other health problems.

[Energizer1000]

I disagree with some advice you've been given so far. It's really not known if it's even necessary to cycle off creatine, but some companies recommend cycling off every 3-4 months and I think it's a good idea. However, don't stop taking it just because you're taking a one week break. In fact, if you've been taking it steady for say, 8wks, just keep taking it during your break.

Now NO products are a different story. You absolutely don't need to take it during your break. There are different off cycles you can go by. I choose one month on, 1 week off. But you can do: 1 month on, 1 month off...... 2 months on, 1 month off............1mth on, 2wks off. It really depends on a few things. Becoming insensitive to caffeine is a big concern not only for you, but for the company who's product you're buying. They want you to feel the "rush". If you don't cycle off, you'll find this effect greatly diminish.....and either take more..........or go find another product. You may not think your NO product has caffeine, but the large majority out there have caffeine, sometimes better know by "methylxanthine". Yes, cycle off NO. Prolonged use can also cause hypertension and other health problems.

DBX, Great Advice. I checked on the creatine I was using (its KRE-alkalyn), and based on the research that I have seen, Kre-alkalyn DOES NOT have to be cycled.

On the issue of NO2, you are correct, i did not know it had caffeine, in fact I have been using it for a couple of months now. Is one week dosing off sufficient for this'?

Anyway, going back to my first post, I was wondering if it will be useless to take all of these because I wont be working out anyway. I thought that, hey, since I wont get the pump, why the hell would I need Creatine and NO2.

[dbx]

Anyway, going back to my first post, I was wondering if it will be useless to take all of these because I wont be working out anyway. I thought that, hey, since I wont get the pump, why the hell would I need Creatine and NO2.

Ahem.....I'm pretty sure that's what I replied to . But let me try to be more clear: You normally want to keep your creatine levels "topped off" even if you're taking a break. But this is advice is pertinent to creatine mono, as it has a "loading" phase, and you don't want to have to re-load just because you took a week off. And to further confuse you, studies show that creatine levels in your body will retain a great deal of it if not expended through hard work. Bottom line: For creatine mono...keep taking it on 1wk break.

I'm not sure, but I don't believe CEE has a loading phase. In this case, if CEE's delivery is so efficient, it may not be necessary to "load". Therefore, I wouldn't think it as necessary to continue to take it during a 1wk break, as you could probably pop an extra dose or two to efficiently "top off" your system levels. Bottom line with CEE: I don't think it'll matter if you do or don't take it. But I wish someone else who uses it would jump in here.

NO products: Do NOT take during your break.

And after 2 months usage as you said, take at least 2 weeks off imho.

[Energizer1000]

Ahem.....I'm pretty sure that's what I replied to . But let me try to be more clear: You normally want to keep your creatine levels "topped off" even if you're taking a break. But this is advice is pertinent to creatine mono, as it has a "loading" phase, and you don't want to have to re-load just because you took a week off. And to further confuse you, studies show that creatine levels in your body will retain a great deal of it if not expended through hard work. Bottom line: For creatine mono...keep taking it on 1wk break.

I'm not sure, but I don't believe CEE has a loading phase. In this case, if CEE's delivery is so efficient, it may not be necessary to "load". Therefore, I wouldn't think it as necessary to continue to take it during a 1wk break, as you could probably pop an extra dose or two to efficiently "top off" your system levels. Bottom line with CEE: I don't think it'll matter if you do or don't take it. But I wish someone else who uses it would jump in here.

NO products: Do NOT take during your break.

And after 2 months usage as you said, take at least 2 weeks off imho.

Thanks DBX, Sorry I was not able to reply as I was out of town for a week. Yes, you gave an answer in your earlier post I just wanted to go back to the issue that if you are on a prolonged break from your workout, do you stop the all the supplements also. I think I got your message.

However, you stated that NO2 has caffeine? Is that bad? I still drink 3 to 4 cups of coffee everyday. Now I am worried coz you used caffeine as a bad drug LOL!

[dbx]

However, you stated that NO2 has caffeine? Is that bad? I still drink 3 to 4 cups of coffee everyday.

I said MOST popular NO products contain a form of caffeine. And no, that is not bad.

Now I am worried coz you used caffeine as a bad drug LOL!

Where did I say caffeine was a bad drug? Caffeine stimulates your CNS. For most people, this gives them that "wake-up" jolt they're looking for when drinking coffee. It can heighten your sense of alertness, and help you focus. However, the AVERAGE cup of coffee contains maybe 115mg of caffeine. When consuming 3 scoops of NO-Xplode you'd be taking in upwards of 300-400mg of caffeine. And when taking this on a daily basis (perhaps in addition to drinking coffee), a person can become desensitized to caffeine, and the "alertness" effect becomes lessened. It's no different really than an alcoholic no longer getting a buzz on 6 beers so he drinks 12 to get the buzz that 6 used to give him. Anyway, this can be avoided or at least, minimized by cycling off NO products. But again, like everything else.........each of us is different, and respond differently to many supplements.

[FittyFour]

Ahem.....I'm pretty sure that's what I replied to . But let me try to be more clear: You normally want to keep your creatine levels "topped off" even if you're taking a break. But this is advice is pertinent to creatine mono, as it has a "loading" phase, and you don't want to have to re-load just because you took a week off. And to further confuse you, studies show that creatine levels in your body will retain a great deal of it if not expended through hard work. Bottom line: For creatine mono...keep taking it on 1wk break.

I'm not sure, but I don't believe CEE has a loading phase. In this case, if CEE's delivery is so efficient, it may not be necessary to "load". Therefore, I wouldn't think it as necessary to continue to take it during a 1wk break, as you could probably pop an extra dose or two to efficiently "top off" your system levels. Bottom line with CEE: I don't think it'll matter if you do or don't take it. But I wish someone else who uses it would jump in here.

NO products: Do NOT take during your break.

And after 2 months usage as you said, take at least 2 weeks off imho.

I've only recently begun to look into the science of supplementation - and about 2 weeks ago, I started using creatine ethyl ester (CEE) so I can't yet comment on effectiveness. But it takes quite a bit of work to separate the myth from the science from the marketing on this (monohydrate or ethyl ester) supplement. What I also did find interesting is that although some of the researchers used a loading phase, some did not.

CEE does not have a "loading phase" although the manufacturer does recommend a cycle of about 6-12 weeks (Cell Mass specifically). While doing some PubMed searches on creatine, the evidence was positive for gaining strength and muscle mass, most evident in resistance training yet not in endurance sports. Most of the articles used creatine monohydrate (CM) - not much I could find on CEE although the nature of it's delivery is touted to be more efficient that CM with none of the bloating.

One study, "Creatine supplementation augments the increase in satellite cell and myonuclei number in human skeletal muscle induced by strength training", http://tinyurl.com/qw8wp, there was evidence that creatine does stimulate a larger increase of muscle fiber over a protein supplement only group.

But note that no loading phase was used.

I could not find any studies where a loading phase was compared to a non-loading phase group. In any case, if I read the above study correctly, there was a positive response without the loading phase.

As far as "topping off" goes, I wonder about needing to concern oneself with that while on vacation, ie not training. Or even if one should be concerned.

If you use the analogy of a gas tank, you certainly want enough for your "trip" (training, post=training protein synthesis, etc). But if not training?

And exactly how big is that gas tank? How much can you supplement or do you need to supplement for performance? As dbx has correctly said, each person is unique so I don't know if there are really any hard and fast rules. My own opinion is that your body will respond most positively when it "needs" the supplementation but it will have little or no effect if you don't.

There is one other interesting study and that compares a supplement combination of creatine/carbohydrate vs. protein/carbohydrate, "Creatine-dextrose and protein-dextrose induce similar strength gains during training", http://tinyurl.com/zyouz.

The conclusion of that study (and there was no loading phase) is that either one of the two combinations above were just as effective as the other, notably when it came to strength. BUT there was a larger increase of total body mass in the creatine/dextrose group.

Note also that it's easy to take many of these studies out of context. And the reading I've done has been of the abstracts - and frankly, I think I would go positively numb if I had to read the entire paper. And also as one person has stated to me, you have to look at where the money is coming from for this research and also to look carefully at the study environment (ie level of training, time of day, fasted or unfasted, etc.).

So what's the bottom line? I don't know. But I will tell you that I'm going on vacation next week and with great trepidation, I'm not taking along my training supplements.

I think that's why they call it "vacation"...

Thank you all for your patience if you've gotten this far in my post...

[dbx]

I've only recently begun to look into the science of supplementation - and about 2 weeks ago, I started using creatine ethyl ester (CEE) so I can't yet comment on effectiveness. But it takes quite a bit of work to separate the myth from the science from the marketing on this (monohydrate or ethyl ester) supplement. What I also did find interesting is that although some of the researchers used a loading phase, some did not.

Loading is recommended basically, because it helps "saturate" your muscles faster. The best analogy I can think of right now is: Take a dry house plant. You can either add a tsp of water once a day for a 3 wks, in which time the plant will be fully saturated. Or....you can add 4tsps of water each day for say, 5 days and the plant will be fully saturated. Actually, there are studies that show that loading will give you a "quicker start", but that this "edge" is negligible.

CEE does not have a "loading phase" although the manufacturer does recommend a cycle of about 6-12 weeks (Cell Mass specifically). While doing some PubMed searches on creatine, the evidence was positive for gaining strength and muscle mass, most evident in resistance training yet not in endurance sports. Most of the articles used creatine monohydrate (CM) - not much I could find on CEE although the nature of it's delivery is touted to be more efficient that CM with none of the bloating.

As CEE is relatively new, there are very few studies available on it. Creatine mono has been around/used for nearly 100yrs, and has hundreds of studies to support its validity as an aid for athletes in general.

As far as "topping off" goes, I wonder about needing to concern oneself with that while on vacation, ie not training. Or even if one should be concerned.

I agree in principle, as this is directly related to the loading theory.

As dbx has correctly said, each person is unique so I don't know if there are really any hard and fast rules. My own opinion is that your body will respond most positively when it "needs" the supplementation but it will have little or no effect if you don't.

If you haven't noticed any effect of CEE after 2 wks of taking it, chances are that you may not be a responder. For people that respond, creatine is not a "mystery" supp that you can't pinpoint where it's helping you. For me, it was like turning on a switch. On approx the 4th day of "loading", as I was working out I suddenly noticed I could just "keep going" when I was doing Db curls. The same weight I had been using and struggling with, suddenly became "easier". I found that not only could I do sveral more reps than any other previous session, but that I could actually do more sets too. I was simply amazed. This was no fluke or placebo effect, as I continued to repeat this performance from that day forward.

What really bugs me is when I hear people say things like "Creatine doesn't work" or "It's a waste of money". The same thing holds true for nay-sayers of NO products. It's always the folks who don't respond who say these things. I feel bad for them, as they obviously cannot relate and simply dismiss a supp just because it doesn't work for them. However, it's simply ignorance that compels them to "put down" a supp for everyone as a whole, based on their personal experience.

So if you respond to creatine and your muscles recover faster between reps/sets....and often allows you to lift a bit heavier as well (think pushing yourself here), this is likely to equal muscle gain at a slightly, yet significantly, more efficient rate (# of sessions needed to accomplish goal). I wish I could think of a better way to explain that, but that'll have to do for now

[FittyFour]

If you haven't noticed any effect of CEE after 2 wks of taking it, chances are that you may not be a responder. For people that respond, creatine is not a "mystery" supp that you can't pinpoint where it's helping you. For me, it was like turning on a switch.

You may be right if common wisdom is that creatine makes an immediate difference. I can't say for certain that there was any difference in my workout or strength levels. But see my comment below....

So if you respond to creatine and your muscles recover faster between reps/sets....and often allows you to lift a bit heavier as well (think pushing yourself here), this is likely to equal muscle gain at a slightly, yet significantly, more efficient rate (# of sessions needed to accomplish goal). I wish I could think of a better way to explain that, but that'll have to do for now

As I dug a little deeper into pre- and post-workout protein shakes, and also read a bit about nutrition timing which seems to be a hot topic these days, I settled on a 2:1 ratio of carbohydrate to protein. Last week, about 1/2 hour prior to my workout, I drank a mix of protein and dextrose (approximately 24 grams protein to 50 grams of carbohydrate). During my training session, I felt stronger, had more endurance, and lifted slightly more weight than I did in the previous workout. And this was after a very exhausting week at work.

Immeditately following the workout, I drank the same combination but added a scoop of CEE. I had an incredible pump which seemed to last into the next day with a similar feeling of strenghth (there were days when I literally felt "deflated" the day after a workout).

Yesterday I repeated the process with the same results.

So creatine may not be my exact answer but a protein:carb combination could be the ticket. And that seems to agree with the research in the article I cited in my previous post.

I think we agree that there is no "one size fits all" when it comes to supplementation or even lifting routines. We all are unique and respond differently. You just have to take the time, do the research, and invest a bit to find the answers.

And above all make sure you're doing it safely!

[dbx]

You may be right if common wisdom is that creatine makes an immediate difference. I can't say for certain that there was any difference in my workout or strength levels.

Be careful! I didn't say "immediate" difference, but I can understand how my "like turning on a swith" comment could be taken as that. It did take 4 days for me. It is common for it to take up to 2-3wks for MONO....but I wouldn't think so for CEE.

As I dug a little deeper into pre- and post-workout protein shakes, and also read a bit about nutrition timing which seems to be a hot topic these days, I settled on a 2:1 ratio of carbohydrate to protein. Last week, about 1/2 hour prior to my workout, I drank a mix of protein and dextrose (approximately 24 grams protein to 50 grams of carbohydrate). During my training session, I felt stronger, had more endurance, and lifted slightly more weight than I did in the previous workout. And this was after a very exhausting week at work.

I'm thinking you MAY have misunderstood here ^. The ratio thing is fine, but I think you'd be better served by using complex carbs. The combination of dextrose and protein you used caused a significant insulin response pre-workout, which is not optimal. You may have felt great this time, but it is common to "crash" after the dex wears off when taken in this manner.

Immeditately following the workout, I drank the same combination but added a scoop of CEE. I had an incredible pump which seemed to last into the next day with a similar feeling of strenghth (there were days when I literally felt "deflated" the day after a workout).
Yesterday I repeated the process with the same results.

I would think CEE would be better if used PRE-w/o, while mono is/can be taken pre/post, but I'm not certain about CEE. BTW, I ALWAYS feel deflated the next day lol. I feel best two days after hitting a muscle group.

I think we agree that there is no "one size fits all" when it comes to supplementation or even lifting routines. We all are unique and respond differently. You just have to take the time, do the research, and invest a bit to find the answers.

Amen

[FittyFour]

I'm thinking you MAY have misunderstood here ^. The ratio thing is fine, but I think you'd be better served by using complex carbs. The combination of dextrose and protein you used caused a significant insulin response pre-workout, which is not optimal. You may have felt great this time, but it is common to "crash" after the dex wears off when taken in this manner.

Nope, didn't misunderstand. Aside from the fact that my last "meal" prior to my workout does contain some complex carbs, the evidence I've been reading points toward using a protein and *simple* carb formula.

In the above study I cited, a postworkout mix was given of protein and glucose with positive results. But there is also evidence that a preworkout drink of protein and simple carbs (ie glucose, maltodextrin, sucrose) helps maintain muscle glycogen stores, suppresses cortisol, and reduces muscle inflammation and exercise related damage. The protein/simple carb mix also enhances protein synthesis.

So the insulin response is exactly what I was looking for. There is even some clinical evidence that a similar combination should be sipped while exercising.

But let's not get crazy...

I would think CEE would be better if used PRE-w/o, while mono is/can be taken pre/post, but I'm not certain about CEE.

For the CEE, I was basically following the manufacturer's recommendation - a scoop immediately following the workout....although I'm not sure about adding it to a protein/carb mix. I'll have to contact them on that.

I have another scoop the next morning, soon as I get up, on an empty stomach. The recommendation for that is listed as 6-8 hours following the previous dose. Since I work out at night, that 2nd dose is maybe a little later than it should be...closer to 10 hours afterward.

I'm going to give this setup about a month to see how it works for me. I haven't yet had the "crash" you discuss but possibly because of the added protein both before and after the workout, and then dinner following within the hour.

I appreciate the discussion though - I'm just sometimes wary that we focus too much on the trees and not enough on the forest.

Time is the needed ingredient for now...