Glutamine! Question revisited!

[kamikazikid]

Hey people. For months, after reading a few threads, and having little noticeable success wth supplementing (4 grams) of glutamine in the past, I totally gave up on glutamine. I was especially certain that oral glutamine was a bunch of crap after hearing such awesome forum members as Layne say "glutamine is a bunch of crap."

But now, I read this article on the main page of BB.com
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/beast37.htm
And its making me revisit supplementing oral glutamine. By the looks of the article, glutamine works great, its just that half of what you take in is lost due to digestion in the gut. So perhaps glutamine would have been more effective if I had been supplementing with 8 grams instead of 4. After all, I still have most of a container of HP l-glutamine sitting in my room, so why not give it a shot!?

Ok yes that last paragraph was a bit of a mind-ramble about how I'm going to try glutamine again, but the actual point of this post was to reopen the question of whether or not glutamine works or not! So, what do you all think? Anybody with glutamine experience or with scientific knowledge on the topic, put it up please.

[HalleluYAH]

You may find this informative...

Molecular mechanisms of glutamine action:
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/c...TRY=1&SRETRY=0

[Bane]

You would be surprised at how much Glutamine is lost due to FPE...
HAl's article only refers to Glutamine's mecahnisms of actions, whether made by the body(primary source by far) or taken other ways.
Glutamine is mainly a very expensive liver glycogen source

[deadaim]

The only glutamine i take works well. Maybe it has something to do with the 5g of BCAAs per serving hahaa.

[HalleluYAH]

Originally Posted by Bane

Glutamine is mainly a very expensive liver glycogen source

Agreed. IMO, if money were not an option, glutamine would be ideal in the during WO window because digestion is not needed. Unfortunately money IS an OPTION, and thus, I stick with 15g of dextrose pre and during WO for this effect.

[Elliptical Envy]

I don't think Glutamine is worthless, but it may benefit someone that is in a calorie deficit more than someone that is bulking. I have been supplementing with G-Tek (5g of Glutamine Peptides per serving) and I haven't noticed much in regards to recovery, but I won't discount the benefits of Glutamine that I won't be able to feel.

[etech]

I wouldn't overdo it though.

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/c...11290/ABSTRACT
Abstract
Ammonia enters the brain by diffusion from the blood or cerebrospinal fluid, or is formed in situ from the metabolism of endogenous nitrogen-containing substances. Despite its central importance in nitrogen homeostasis, excess ammonia is toxic to the central nervous system and its concentration in the brain must be kept low. This is accomplished by the high activity of glutamine synthetase, which is localized in astrocytes and which permits efficient detoxification of incoming or endogenously generated ammonia. The location also permits the operation of an intercellular glutamine cycle. In this cycle, glutamate released from nerve terminals is taken up by astrocytes where it is converted to glutamine. Glutamine is released to the extracellular fluid to be taken up into the nerve cells, where it is converted back to glutamate by the action of glutaminase. Most extrahepatic organs lack a complete urea cycle, and for many organs, including the brain, glutamine represents a temporary storage form of waste nitrogen. As such, glutamine was long thought to be harmless to the brain. However, recent evidence suggests that excess glutamine is neurotoxic. Hyperammonemic syndromes (e.g., liver disease, inborn errors of the urea cycle, Reye's disease) consistently cause astrocyte pathology. Evidence has been presented that hyperammonemia results in increased formation of glutamine directly in astrocytes, thereby generating an osmotic stress to these cells. This osmotic stress results in impaired astrocyte function, which in turn leads to neuronal dysfunction. In this review a brief overview is presented of the role of glutamine in normal brain metabolism and in the pathogenesis of hyperammonemic syndromes. MRDD Research Reviews 2001;7:280-286. © 2001 Wiley-Liss, Inc.
"

[str8flexed]

Garlick PJ, the godfather of amino acid research, recently did a study where he INJECTED glutamine and still found no effect on protein synthesis or breakdown. WHY DO YOU PEOPLE KEEP LOOKING FOR EXCUSES TO WASTE YOUR MONEY?

[Big Boi 1906]

Originally Posted by str8flexed

Garlick PJ, the godfather of amino acid research, recently did a study where he INJECTED glutamine and still found no effect on protein synthesis or breakdown. WHY DO YOU PEOPLE KEEP LOOKING FOR EXCUSES TO WASTE YOUR MONEY?

What are some alternative sources that reduces acidity. I've heard that baking soda is a reasonable alternative to glutamine for this purpose.

[PeteyW]

Originally Posted by Big Boi 1906

What are some alternative sources that reduces acidity. I've heard that baking soda is a reasonable alternative to glutamine for this purpose.

GEEEZ! I think you guys worry a little to much about these things. If you are going as far as mixing baking soda into food just to reduce acidity.... there is a problem. Just don't let your self get to that point!

[Elliptical Envy]

Originally Posted by Big Boi 1906

What are some alternative sources that reduces acidity. I've heard that baking soda is a reasonable alternative to glutamine for this purpose.

If you are referring to acidity in foods you eat then adding fats to your meals will make the meal less acidic.

[Elliptical Envy]

Originally Posted by str8flexed

Garlick PJ, the godfather of amino acid research, recently did a study where he INJECTED glutamine and still found no effect on protein synthesis or breakdown. WHY DO YOU PEOPLE KEEP LOOKING FOR EXCUSES TO WASTE YOUR MONEY?

Layne, I would love if you were able to let me view that study. I could use something like that when I review G-Tek and prove why it isn't worth the money.

[str8flexed]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...=pubmed_docsum

[Elliptical Envy]

Thanks Layne.

[Bunji Carlin]

Originally Posted by str8flexed

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...=pubmed_docsum

Thanks for that link str8flexed...Like geico you've just saved me a sh*t load of cash! Now whats the deal on BCAA's??

[Elliptical Envy]

Originally Posted by Bunji Carlin

Thanks for that link str8flexed...Like geico you've just saved me a sh*t load of cash! Now whats the deal on BCAA's??

The BCAA talk was on the beginning pages of this thread.

[LiFtHaTiRoN]

Glutamine not onbly increases growth hormones, but helps with fatigue during workouts. When you lift weights without supplementing with glutamine your body depletes its glutamine stores, which are necesarry to have a strong immune system. because of the tremendous stress lifting weighs places on your body, bodybuilders are prone to sickness. If all you do is supplement with glutimine in order to not get sick then its worth it in my opinion. We all know that when you get sick it means lost workout days, so for no other reason take your glutamine. 10g per day

[str8flexed]

Originally Posted by LiFtHaTiRoN

Glutamine not onbly increases growth hormones, but helps with fatigue during workouts. When you lift weights without supplementing with glutamine your body depletes its glutamine stores, which are necesarry to have a strong immune system. because of the tremendous stress lifting weighs places on your body, bodybuilders are prone to sickness. If all you do is supplement with glutimine in order to not get sick then its worth it in my opinion. We all know that when you get sick it means lost workout days, so for no other reason take your glutamine. 10g per day

lifting weights has 0 impact on your intramuscular glutamine stores.

[Elliptical Envy]

Gotta love that bro-tology.

[GeneGnomeX]

How about glutamine for increased carb/fat oxidation when taken before meals.

[str8flexed]

I already covered that subject in depth on the thread in dereks forum that was titles "glutamine worthless?"

[TheUnlikelyToad]

What are your thoughts on PRAL Layne?

[str8flexed]

sorry i'm not up on my abreviations. what is PRAL?

[TheUnlikelyToad]

Originally Posted by str8flexed

sorry i'm not up on my abreviations. what is PRAL?

PRAL is potential renal acid load. John Berardi explains this very well here:

"Why Acid Is Bad

Every cell of the body functions optimally within a certain pH range (pH is a measure of the acidity or alkalinity of the body). In different cells, this optimal range is different, however, the net pH of the body has to remain tightly regulated. One common problem with most industrialized societies is that our diets produce what's called a "low grade chronic metabolic acidosis." In other words, the PRAL of our diets is high and this means that we're chronically in a state of high acidity. While there are a number of disease states that induce severe metabolic acidosis, we're talking a sub-clinical rise in acidity here. Therefore, your doc probably won't notice the problem. But that doesn't mean that you're in the clear. Your cells will recognize the problem.

So what's wrong with this low-grade chronic metabolic acidosis? Well, since the body must, at all costs, operate at a stable pH, any dietary acid load has to be neutralized by one of a number of homeostatic base-producing mechanisms. So, although the pH of the body is maintained and your doctor visits turn out fine, many cells of the body will suffer. Here are some of the most severe consequences of your body's attempt to maintain a constant pH in the face of an acidic environment:

Hypercalciuria (high concentrations of calcium in the urine). Since calcium is a strong base and bone contains the body's largest calcium store, metabolic acidosis causes a release in calcium from bone. As a result, osteoclastic (bone degrading) activity increases and osteoblastic (bone building) activity decreases. The net result of these changes is that bone is lost in order to neutralize the acidic environment of the body. The calcium that was stored in the bone is then lost in the urine along with the acid it was mobilized to neutralize. This creates a negative calcium balance (more calcium is lost from the body than is consumed) and bones get weak. (2,3,4,6)

Negative nitrogen balance (high concentrations of nitrogen in urine). Glutamine is responsible for binding hydrogen ions to form ammonium. Since hydrogen ions are acidic, glutamine acts much like calcium to neutralize the body's acidosis. Since skeletal muscle contains the body's largest glutamine store, metabolic acidosis causes muscle breakdown to liberate glutamine from the muscle. The amino acids from this muscle breakdown are then excreted, causing a net loss of muscle protein. (2,7)

In addition to bone and muscle loss, other consequences of acidosis include:

Decreased IGF1 activity (4)
GH resistance (4)
Mild hypothyroidism (4)
Hypercortisolemia (4,5)

Interestingly, low-grade metabolic acidosis seems to worsen with age. Many have speculated that this is due to an age-related decline in kidney function (and acid excretion). Of course, osteoporosis and muscle wasting are unfortunate consequences of aging. While it's too early to tell, perhaps some of the bone and muscle loss evident as individuals get older is a result of diet-induced acidosis. This means that employing a few simple acid-base strategies may help slow osteoporosis and sarcopoenia.

2) Frassetto et al, J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 82: 254-259, 1997.
3) New, Proc Nutr Soc. 61(2): 151-164, 2002.
4) Wiederkehr et al, Swiss Med Wkly. 10:127-132, 2001.
6) Buclin et al, Osteoporos Int. 12: 493-499, 2001.
7) Welbourne, et al. JPEN. 18(3): 243-7, 1994."

[Bane]

Originally Posted by str8flexed

Garlick PJ, the godfather of amino acid research, recently did a study where he INJECTED glutamine and still found no effect on protein synthesis or breakdown. WHY DO YOU PEOPLE KEEP LOOKING FOR EXCUSES TO WASTE YOUR MONEY?

Because there is no cure for stupidity

[Bane]

Originally Posted by TheUnlikelyToad

PRAL is potential renal acid load. John Berardi explains this very well here:

"Why Acid Is Bad

Every cell of the body functions optimally within a certain pH range (pH is a measure of the acidity or alkalinity of the body). In different cells, this optimal range is different, however, the net pH of the body has to remain tightly regulated. One common problem with most industrialized societies is that our diets produce what's called a "low grade chronic metabolic acidosis." In other words, the PRAL of our diets is high and this means that we're chronically in a state of high acidity. While there are a number of disease states that induce severe metabolic acidosis, we're talking a sub-clinical rise in acidity here. Therefore, your doc probably won't notice the problem. But that doesn't mean that you're in the clear. Your cells will recognize the problem.

So what's wrong with this low-grade chronic metabolic acidosis? Well, since the body must, at all costs, operate at a stable pH, any dietary acid load has to be neutralized by one of a number of homeostatic base-producing mechanisms. So, although the pH of the body is maintained and your doctor visits turn out fine, many cells of the body will suffer. Here are some of the most severe consequences of your body's attempt to maintain a constant pH in the face of an acidic environment:

Hypercalciuria (high concentrations of calcium in the urine). Since calcium is a strong base and bone contains the body's largest calcium store, metabolic acidosis causes a release in calcium from bone. As a result, osteoclastic (bone degrading) activity increases and osteoblastic (bone building) activity decreases. The net result of these changes is that bone is lost in order to neutralize the acidic environment of the body. The calcium that was stored in the bone is then lost in the urine along with the acid it was mobilized to neutralize. This creates a negative calcium balance (more calcium is lost from the body than is consumed) and bones get weak. (2,3,4,6)

Negative nitrogen balance (high concentrations of nitrogen in urine). Glutamine is responsible for binding hydrogen ions to form ammonium. Since hydrogen ions are acidic, glutamine acts much like calcium to neutralize the body's acidosis. Since skeletal muscle contains the body's largest glutamine store, metabolic acidosis causes muscle breakdown to liberate glutamine from the muscle. The amino acids from this muscle breakdown are then excreted, causing a net loss of muscle protein. (2,7)

In addition to bone and muscle loss, other consequences of acidosis include:

Decreased IGF1 activity (4)
GH resistance (4)
Mild hypothyroidism (4)
Hypercortisolemia (4,5)

Interestingly, low-grade metabolic acidosis seems to worsen with age. Many have speculated that this is due to an age-related decline in kidney function (and acid excretion). Of course, osteoporosis and muscle wasting are unfortunate consequences of aging. While it's too early to tell, perhaps some of the bone and muscle loss evident as individuals get older is a result of diet-induced acidosis. This means that employing a few simple acid-base strategies may help slow osteoporosis and sarcopoenia.

2) Frassetto et al, J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 82: 254-259, 1997.
3) New, Proc Nutr Soc. 61(2): 151-164, 2002.
4) Wiederkehr et al, Swiss Med Wkly. 10:127-132, 2001.
6) Buclin et al, Osteoporos Int. 12: 493-499, 2001.
7) Welbourne, et al. JPEN. 18(3): 243-7, 1994."

As I've already said drinking soda is 10X more efficeint and cost effective, plus it helps with gastric acid management

[JayH]

Originally Posted by str8flexed

lifting weights has 0 impact on your intramuscular glutamine stores.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...t_uids=7845291

Depends on what kind of training you do. If your lifting is similar to a HIT style, you're probably okay.

[str8flexed]

that is plasma glutamine

not intramuscular. And all the evidence i've seen shows plasma glutamine increases during exercise. Unfortunately I can't look at the full text of this article to see what methods they used so I have no rebuttal at this point other than saying that doesn't jive with every other study i've seen.

[300poundfly]

If glutamine is worthless as you stated, then why don't the manufacturers of whey protein remove the glutamic acid which makes up about 15% of their total protein?

And if glutamine and creatine compete for the same insulin receptors, then won't the glutamine I get from my (ON) whey protein (Vanilla Ice Cream GS) compete with the (Ultimate Nutrition Creapure) creatine monohydrate if I consume them at the same time pre and post-workout? So, am I not neutralizing the potential benefits of creatine supplementation by taking whey protein concurrently? Wouldn't it be better to take creatine pre-workout and whey protein post-workout, or vice versa?

And should I throw my (Ultimate Nutrition) L-Glutamine in the garbage or finish it?

Any advice would be appreciated.

[str8flexed]

because glutamic acid is not glutamine, and removing it would cost more than leaving it in...


glutamine does not compete with creatine... they use totally different receptors... whoever told you they competed for the same one was completely mistaken

i'd try to sell the glutamine to someone who doesn't know better lol


in all seriousness, it won't hurt you, but it's not going to help either.