Glutamine Product by BK & Gaspari

[Kohen_Gadol]

OK...most people realize that intravenous glutamine kicks butt and takes names but that oral L-Glutamine is ineffective unless you mega-dose like 30g at a sitting or more because of the human GI tract.

So what if there was a cool way to ingest like 5g of a Glutamine type product that would POTENTIALLY (a study, not a board log, would be needed to confirm this idea independently) give you many of the same effects of IV glutamine?

Would you buy it? How much would you pay for it?

BK

[lbarber4]

If it's effective, then I would be interested in buying it. Just as long as it's cost effective, and actually works.

[Coulaid]

$30-$40... I can't dip into my custom threads fund

[deserusan]

I would buy it and love the fact that someone else can look at the studies regarding glutamine in a broader sense. I feel it has gotten a lot bad press here on the forum because most of the people against it don't understand it's impact in the medical world with regards to maintaining a positive nitrogen balance and tissue repair. If I was designing a glutamine supplement this is what I would make:

Magnesium Glycyl Glutamine- 7 g
l-luecine- 7g
l-valine- 3.5 g
l-isoluecine- 3.5g
Vinpocetine- 1 g
Beta Alanine- 2 g
Citrulline Malate- 3 g
Ketoisocaproic Acid Calcium
BPOV (Bis Picolinato Oxo Vanadium)

It would be geared towards endurance and would stack with any creatine product well.

[Stonecoldtruth]

many of the same effects of IV glutamine

That'd be worth $40 a month

[Stonecoldtruth]

I would buy it and love the fact that someone else can look at the studies regarding glutamine in a broader sense. I feel it has gotten a lot bad press here on the forum because most of the people against it don't understand it's impact in the medical world with regards to maintaining a positive nitrogen balance and tissue repair. .

I am going to completely concur here with you here Des, the Sacks and Roth studies alone show so many benefits from the nitrogen balance, tissue repair, immune system, protein metabolism, and so many other benefits that could directly carryover for fitness and general health supplementation.

SCT

[CanadaBBOY]

Other:

I would, however I can't put a specific price on how much i'd be willing to pay because I honestly don't know exactly how the effects would be. I doubt anyone on the boards have tried IV glutamine, so no one can say how effective glutamine really is, and how much it's effects are worth. The studies show that it is very useful with medical applications but we'd have to see how close this oral option came to the IV option.

If it worked like you say, and the effects were very good for recovery/muscle sparing I think it would be worth it. In this regard though it would have to be competative to the popular BCAA and EAA option which is also supposed to help in those area's (as well as increasing muscle growth).

[warbird00]

I would buy it and love the fact that someone else can look at the studies regarding glutamine in a broader sense. I feel it has gotten a lot bad press here on the forum because most of the people against it don't understand it's impact in the medical world with regards to maintaining a positive nitrogen balance and tissue repair. If I was designing a glutamine supplement this is what I would make:

Magnesium Glycyl Glutamine- 7 g
l-luecine- 7g
l-valine- 3.5 g
l-isoluecine- 3.5g
Vinpocetine- 1 g
Beta Alanine- 2 g
Citrulline Malate- 3 g
Ketoisocaproic Acid Calcium
BPOV (Bis Picolinato Oxo Vanadium)

It would be geared towards endurance and would stack with any creatine product well.

would that be called a glutamine product when its around only 1/4 glutamine tho??

[deserusan]

would that be called a glutamine product when its around only 1/4 glutamine tho??

It would be geared for promoting recovery, muscular endurance, and maintaining a positive nitrogen balance during a workout. The short answer is yes but I feel to effectively market a new glutamine product it should be piggy-backed onto other products that are very useful. Plain glutamine is boring.

[storm shadow]

It would be geared for promoting recovery, muscular endurance, and maintaining a positive nitrogen balance during a workout. The short answer is yes but I feel to effectively market a new glutamine product it should be piggy-backed onto other products that are very useful.Plain glutamine is boring.

ha, agreed

[bodybuilder45]

definately has my interest. im the only vote right now at under $50/month but i absolutely love glutamine. i megadose it during workouts with my megadosed BCAA's. not entirely sure that the glutamine is doing anything but something in there definitely feels like its working and i dont plan on changing it unless its in a more available form.

hey BK, what do you think of the patented Magnesium Glycyl Glutamine? will your product be anything like it?

[deserusan]

hey BK, what do you think of the patented Magnesium Glycyl Glutamine?

I'm pretty certain BK would want this form of glutamine. Here is why:

"By means of one or more of the above mechanisms, magnesium is essential to the building of maximum muscle mass and endurance. Strenuous physical activity and associated mental and physical stress can cause a decline in tissue magnesium levels as a result of hypermetabolic compensation and the increased elaboration of catecholamines, glucagon, and mineral corticoids. Magnesium administered in the form of inorganic salts to replenish reduced levels in the body, can cause serious side effects such as intestinal irritability, loose stools, or diarrhea. Because of this, many body builders or other athletes are magnesium deficient and sufficient levels of magnesium are not included in many prior art anabolic formulas. It is therefore essential that any magnesium administered is in a safe but effective bioavailable form. One such form which has been shown to be superior to all others is as an amino acid chelate.

There are certain amino acids that affect the positive balance of nitrogen in the building or synthesis of skeletal or muscular proteins. These function in the presence or absence of insulin but have a greater response in the presence of insulin. Glutamine, glycine and arginine are all anabolic and also all have well-defined metabolic behaviors that are distinct from their participation in protein synthesis and breakdown. According to Rennie et al., J Nutr. 124: 1503S-1508S (1994) it has been found that there is a strong relationship between the rate of muscle protein synthesis and intramuscular glutamine concentration. Rennie et al. state that there is little doubt that the phenomenon of an anabolic effect of glutamine in human and animal muscle exists, however, the nature of the mechanism is not evident. Glutamine or L-glutamine, not only has a positive effect on the nitrogen balance in protein, i.e. is anabolic, but also stimulates the accumulation of muscle glycogen in rats. It is suggested that any processes that interfere with the ability of muscle to accumulate glutamine will result in muscle wasting and therefore, the effects of disease and injury causing muscle wasting may include interference with the muscle glutamine transporter.

Young et al, J. Parenteral and Enteral Nutrition, 17: 422-427 (1993) states that glutamine has been shown to be clinically safe when administered as a supplemental nutrient and improves nitrogen balance. It is also known that glutamine is a precursor of the neurotransmitter .tau.-aminobutyric acid and can cross the blood-brain barrier. Glutamate, which is a product of glutamine metabolism, and vice versa, is the most abundant single amino acid within the central nervous system and also functions as a neurotransmitter. Because of this property, Young et al., have found that glutamine also possesses antidepressive properties.

According to Gore, et al., Arch. Surg. 129:1318-1323 (1994) catabolic hormones, such as cortisol, increases the efflux of glutamine resulting from an accelerated release of glutamine from the free intracellular glutamine pool that is then replenished from either increased endogenous protein breakdown or from de novo glutamine synthesis. This is further indication that increased cortisol has an adverse or catabolic affect on the nitrogen balance of muscle tissues and also of the need for a source of bioavailable glutamine.

To permit optimal muscle growth and maintenance, it is essential that a proper balance be maintained between endogenous anabolic steroids and cortisol such that these hormones are present in amounts sufficient to enable the various body processes to function normally while, at the same time, minimizing the adverse side effects caused by these same hormones. It is also necessary that adequate amounts of chromium and magnesium, in a bioavailable form, are present to regulate enzyme functions, cortisol levels, and optimize synthesis of proteins, glucose, and fat distribution."


This is from the US Patent 588553 which Magnesium Glycyl Glutamine is covered under.

[Joel]

My "other" vote is Im already gettting plenty in my protein powder IMO, not going to spend more money on more Glutamine

[thirsty4chicken]

Other: Numerous studies have shown that glutamine supplementation has no significant effect on promoting muscle growth/preventing catabolism.

Deserusan: there's no way of making the glutamine go directly into the muscle. Amino acid transport is highly regulated; I doubt there will be a significant increase in intramuscular glutamine concentration following oral supplementation.

[Bane]

No, because Glutamine is junk.
I.V. glutamine rules? Only if you are a burn victim, and yet again todays therapies consider the safety/efficiency innefective

[user88812]

I think the best glutamine product is

German American Technologies L-Glutamine Peptides.

What's In It?
Supplement Facts:

Serving Size: 1 Teaspoon (5g)
Servings Per Container: 200

Amount Per Serving:

Calories: 20
Calories from Fat: 3
Total Fat: 0.3g
Total Carbohydrates: 1g
Sugars: 0g
Glutamine Peptide: 5g
Protein: 4g

[ragnar1199]

If it was effective, I think I'd be willing to pay for it as much as I pay for the spiffy creatine blend products.

[Amino89]

Do Leucine Peptides exist? That would be cool to do Glutamine/Leucine Peptide if they did.

[BiggJohn]

Other:

I would, however I can't put a specific price on how much i'd be willing to pay because I honestly don't know exactly how the effects would be. I doubt anyone on the boards have tried IV glutamine, so no one can say how effective glutamine really is, and how much it's effects are worth. The studies show that it is very useful with medical applications but we'd have to see how close this oral option came to the IV option.

If it worked like you say, and the effects were very good for recovery/muscle sparing I think it would be worth it. In this regard though it would have to be competative to the popular BCAA and EAA option which is also supposed to help in those area's (as well as increasing muscle growth).

Bingo. My thoughts exactly.

[TheUnlikelyToad]

So BK, are we talking about Alanyl-L-Glutamine?

That would surely make Deseuran and his Magnesium Glycyl Glutamine say Mommy.

[DRP7]

No, because Glutamine is junk.
I.V. glutamine rules? Only if you are a burn victim, and yet again todays therapies consider the safety/efficiency innefective

hey, Bane, you are back? finished army? or just on vacation? anyways, nice to see you again! your input is highly anticipated and appreciated.

very best regards

david

[Kohen_Gadol]

I'm pretty certain BK would want this form of glutamine. Here is why:

"By means of one or more of the above mechanisms, magnesium is essential to the building of maximum muscle mass and endurance. Strenuous physical activity and associated mental and physical stress can cause a decline in tissue magnesium levels as a result of hypermetabolic compensation and the increased elaboration of catecholamines, glucagon, and mineral corticoids. Magnesium administered in the form of inorganic salts to replenish reduced levels in the body, can cause serious side effects such as intestinal irritability, loose stools, or diarrhea. Because of this, many body builders or other athletes are magnesium deficient and sufficient levels of magnesium are not included in many prior art anabolic formulas. It is therefore essential that any magnesium administered is in a safe but effective bioavailable form. One such form which has been shown to be superior to all others is as an amino acid chelate.

There are certain amino acids that affect the positive balance of nitrogen in the building or synthesis of skeletal or muscular proteins. These function in the presence or absence of insulin but have a greater response in the presence of insulin. Glutamine, glycine and arginine are all anabolic and also all have well-defined metabolic behaviors that are distinct from their participation in protein synthesis and breakdown. According to Rennie et al., J Nutr. 124: 1503S-1508S (1994) it has been found that there is a strong relationship between the rate of muscle protein synthesis and intramuscular glutamine concentration. Rennie et al. state that there is little doubt that the phenomenon of an anabolic effect of glutamine in human and animal muscle exists, however, the nature of the mechanism is not evident. Glutamine or L-glutamine, not only has a positive effect on the nitrogen balance in protein, i.e. is anabolic, but also stimulates the accumulation of muscle glycogen in rats. It is suggested that any processes that interfere with the ability of muscle to accumulate glutamine will result in muscle wasting and therefore, the effects of disease and injury causing muscle wasting may include interference with the muscle glutamine transporter.

Young et al, J. Parenteral and Enteral Nutrition, 17: 422-427 (1993) states that glutamine has been shown to be clinically safe when administered as a supplemental nutrient and improves nitrogen balance. It is also known that glutamine is a precursor of the neurotransmitter .tau.-aminobutyric acid and can cross the blood-brain barrier. Glutamate, which is a product of glutamine metabolism, and vice versa, is the most abundant single amino acid within the central nervous system and also functions as a neurotransmitter. Because of this property, Young et al., have found that glutamine also possesses antidepressive properties.

According to Gore, et al., Arch. Surg. 129:1318-1323 (1994) catabolic hormones, such as cortisol, increases the efflux of glutamine resulting from an accelerated release of glutamine from the free intracellular glutamine pool that is then replenished from either increased endogenous protein breakdown or from de novo glutamine synthesis. This is further indication that increased cortisol has an adverse or catabolic affect on the nitrogen balance of muscle tissues and also of the need for a source of bioavailable glutamine.

To permit optimal muscle growth and maintenance, it is essential that a proper balance be maintained between endogenous anabolic steroids and cortisol such that these hormones are present in amounts sufficient to enable the various body processes to function normally while, at the same time, minimizing the adverse side effects caused by these same hormones. It is also necessary that adequate amounts of chromium and magnesium, in a bioavailable form, are present to regulate enzyme functions, cortisol levels, and optimize synthesis of proteins, glucose, and fat distribution."


This is from the US Patent 588553 which Magnesium Glycyl Glutamine is covered under.

No. Albion has the patent to this product (and it is a good product and Albion is a tip top company) but I have a "slicker" idea than an amino acid chelate. I've been playing with a variety of "salts" WRT the new Arginine product Gaspari will be launching soon called Plasmajet(tm) and I have noticed that some of the salts seem to "work longer" than others do. They directly have a pretty serious impact on bioavailability and half life proving to me that not all of them just get "cleaved off" in the stomach leaving a free form amino and an acid.

I would like to do a peptide but the issue is cost. There is no way this would be a $30-$40 product and look at the voting?!? I mean, to make it work would cost like $50+ or so. This tells me to skip that idea until the price of the technology comes down.

I think the overall effects, as others have mentioned, of IV glutamine, if AND ONLY IF, they could be partially or fully replicated in an oral form, would make a worthy supplement.

I've got an idea for it. After the Olympia I will run it by Rich and see when it can be beta'ed and if it works, maybe worked in. This would be something for the Arnold Classic timeline wise.

Thanks and keep on voting!

BK

[Kohen_Gadol]

So BK, are we talking about Alanyl-L-Glutamine?

That would surely make Deseuran and his Magnesium Glycyl Glutamine say Mommy.

I'm not going this route so I will throw people a teaster -

N-Acetyl-L-Glutamine might be worth a look

BK

[Kohen_Gadol]

It would be geared for promoting recovery, muscular endurance, and maintaining a positive nitrogen balance during a workout. The short answer is yes but I feel to effectively market a new glutamine product it should be piggy-backed onto other products that are very useful. Plain glutamine is boring.

Repped.

BK

[Anssi Manninen]

Do Leucine Peptides exist? That would be cool to do Glutamine/Leucine Peptide if they did.

One can make any peptides but the production cost is pretty damn high..

[Kohen_Gadol]

Other: Numerous studies have shown that glutamine supplementation has no significant effect on promoting muscle growth/preventing catabolism.

Deserusan: there's no way of making the glutamine go directly into the muscle. Amino acid transport is highly regulated; I doubt there will be a significant increase in intramuscular glutamine concentration following oral supplementation.

Yes there is If you can get it by the intestinal mucosa and liver (which you can with this chelate) you can find a sneaky way to "force cram it" into muscles like any other amino acid - to a point. A small dose of this stuff caused a 600% rise in plasma glutamine concentrations for about an hour or a little more. I am looking to get a 1000% raise in plasma glutamine and sustain this for 3-4 hours at least. This would be a KILLER before bedtime powder/drink, especially if I can get 1000% for 2-3 hours and then a gradual taper off back down to baseline over 7-8 hours. You do a lot of repair/regrowth when you're asleep. This could be perfect for this time frame.

See this study:

http://www.infinity2.info/research/pdf/1910.pdf#search='albion%20and%20glutamine%20chelat e'


BK

[Kohen_Gadol]

One can make any peptides but the production cost is pretty damn high..

You ain't kidding! Plus, you want to make a dipeptide or perhaps a small tripeptide at the biggest.

I'm thinking it will be easier to make an ionic salt using glutamic acid and something else. Glutamate and glutamine interchange in the body anyhow.

No more! I will not give anymore away until Rich gives me the thumbs up on this one.

Hey...Plasmajet, Halodrol Liquigels...you guys will have plenty to play with.

BK

[Anssi Manninen]

http://www.infinity2.info/research/pdf/1910.pdf#search='albion%20and%20glutamine%20chelat e'

Is this stuff expensive? Btw, this study would have MUCH more impact if they would publish it in some peer-reviewed nutritional biochemistry journal. I think it could be published as "Brief Communications".

[TheUnlikelyToad]

I'm not going this route so I will throw people a teaster -

N-Acetyl-L-Glutamine might be worth a look

BK

Sure is cheaper from prices I've seen.

But when factoring in tha amount of work, I don't know... good luck.

[fitnfirm]

but I have a "slicker" idea than an amino acid chelate. I've been playing with a variety of "salts"
BK

Hmmmm interesting, wonder where you got that idea...............