post workout protein/carb mix, after a creatine carb mix, re: insulin

[crazydude]

So if I'm taking a post workout creatine shake like cell tech, phosphagen hp or creatine with juice
I'm boosting my insulin so that the supps can get in my muscles.



So I take my creatine mix first, then 30-45mins later I take my protein shake.

My question is, Isn't my insulin level still high from my creatine shake?

Is there a benefit to add the extra carbs in my protein shake?



I know alot of people mix a post workout protein shake with carbs,
but I don't think they are accounting for the carbs they consumed with their creatine.

[crazydude]

So how long do insulin levels stay up?

[Elliptical Envy]

Honestly, it depends on how many simple carbs you are consuming with your creatine. If you are taking Cell-Tech then that is 75g of dextrose just from your creatine alone, so I wouldn't add anymore to my post-workout shake. The number of simple carbs you should intake is really up to you, so there is no way to give a set in stone answer.

[livinonlava]

Hey crazy: I would recommend having your protein / carb shake WITH your creatine. That 30-45 minutes waiting after a hard training session can become quite catabolic. Your cortisol levels are raised from the stress of the workout, and your glycogen levels in the muscle are greatly reduced. Immediately following the workout is a very important time to flush your system with amino acids -- whey protein provides a quick rush of these. The carbs in your shake help with the insulin response that aids the nutrient uptake. Your creatine can ride this wave as well. In fact, you don't really need the high-sugar "transport systems" from some of the creatines you listed. If you throw in about 1/8 tsp of salt into your shake, the sodium appears to aid more in uptake for that specifically than an insulin surge. Hope this is helpful, though I realize I didn't exactly answer your original question.

[crazydude]

Hey crazy: I would recommend having your protein / carb shake WITH your creatine.

Would I still be getting the most out of both my creatine and my protein?
I've always read take them 30-45 mins. apart. why?

By the way I'm taking phosphagen HP.

sodium appears to aid more in uptake for that specifically than an insulin surge.

Very interesting, I'm gonna look into this.

[livinonlava]

Would I still be getting the most out of both my creatine and my protein?
I've always read take them 30-45 mins. apart. why?

By the way I'm taking phosphagen HP.



Very interesting, I'm gonna look into this.

As a starter:

__________________________________________________ ___________

Creatine Uptake in Isolated Soleus Muscle:
Kinetics and Dependence on Sodium, but not on Insulin

C.A. WILLOTT, M.E. YOUNG, B. LEIGHTON, G.J. KEMP, E.A. BOEHM,
G.K. RADDA and K. CLARKE

Department of Biochemistry, University of Oxford, South Parks Road, Oxford, UK

ABSTRACT

The increased use of creatine by athletes as a dietary supplement to improve their physical performance assumes that increased serum creatine levels will increase intracellular skeletal muscle creatine. Despite this common assumption, skeletal muscle creatine uptake awaits full characterization. Consequently, we have investigated. C-labelled creatine uptake in isolated, incubated rat soleus (type 1) muscle preparations at 37° C. We found that the apparent Km for creatine uptake was 73 μM and the Vmax was 77nmol h gww. Creatine uptake was 82% inhibited by 2mM β-guanidinopropionic acid, the structural analogue of creatine. In addition, a decrease in buffer Na concentration, from 145 to 25mM, reduced the rate of C-labelled creatine uptake by 77%, indicating that uptake is largely Na dependent in soleus muscle. Insulin had no effect on the rate of creatine uptake in vitro. The total creatine content was 34% lower, but the rate of creatine uptake in the presence of 100 μM extracellular creatine was 45% higher, in soleus than in extensor digitorum longus (type II) muscle. However, at 1 mM extracellular creatine, the maximal rate of uptake was not significantly different for the two muscle types, implying that soleus muscle has a lower Km for creatine uptake. We suggest that intracellular creatine levels may play a role in the regulation of skeletal muscle creatine uptake.

__________________________________________________ ___________

Now regarding getting the "most" out of your creatine and protein... In my opinion based on things I've read (and I'm looking for studies to back this up) neither creatine nor protein absorbtion should not be affected by the presence of the other. Again, the carb/protein mixture will be contributing to some insulin rise which will only aid further in the transport of the creatine. Anecdotally, I have been taking my creatine PWO with my whey + OATS for several years with excellent results (check my bodyspace if you're interested). Incidentally, I have recently used HP CEE, but my favorite creatine is EAS Betagen (I like the HMB + glutamine when I'm cutting).

[user88812]

Take this anabolic shake:

2 scoops of whey
.5Xyour weight of dext/malto (90g for me)
5g of creatine
10g of glutamine
Vitamins C and E

and your good to go. An hour after, eat a big complex carbs meal with minimum of fat.

I'm eating sweet potatoes with tuna and veggies

That's what I learned and it's working for me.

[livinonlava]

Additionally, check out this excellent read:

http://www.sportsnutritionsociety.or...1-60-66-06.pdf

A significant amount of literature has developed
in regards to the most effective means to
enhance creatine uptake. Adding creatine with a
carbohydrate source has been observed to
enhance uptake, primarily through the effect of
an insulin response 4,26. Additionally, some
research in cell culture has indicated that
combining creatine and sodium may additionally
enhance creatine uptake via the manipulation of
increasing the gradient in which the CreaT
functions

[Rev_Chris]

Im going with this for post workout as soon as my storm/malto comes in the mail.

2 Scoops Of ON Whey (48 grams protein) + 5G Taurine/4G BCAA/1G Glutamine (In a PreMix flavorless powder)
then as soon
1 Serving of Storm(creatine) + 30G Maltodextrin + 30G Dextrose

In total thats approx:
Cal:480 , P:48G , Carbs:63G, F:1G
Creatine:5G BCAA:4G Taurine:4G Glutamine:1G

According to all the reading I've done (mostly here on bb.com) this should impact the Insulin levels immediatly after the workout and enhance recovery. I also think that waiting 45 minutes would decrease this effectivness although some articles indicate that upto an hour after the workout your insulin levels are elevated. In that case the only reason I can think of to take it all together would be to increase the transport into the body and cells. I wonder however if taking it all together inhibits the uptake from the digestive system into the bloodstream. I hope someone who knows more could comment.

[rlyon]

Im going with this for post workout as soon as my storm/malto comes in the mail.

2 Scoops Of ON Whey (48 grams protein) + 5G Taurine/4G BCAA/1G Glutamine (In a PreMix flavorless powder)
then as soon
1 Serving of Storm(creatine) + 30G Maltodextrin + 30G Dextrose

In total thats approx:
Cal:480 , P:48G , Carbs:63G, F:1G
Creatine:5G BCAA:4G Taurine:4G Glutamine:1G
.

Forgive my ignorance, but creatine post workout and not before?

[saku]

An hour after, eat a big complex carbs meal with minimum of fat.

I'm eating sweet potatoes with tuna and veggies

That's what I learned and it's working for me.

is an hour after optimal before eating your big meal? is that what alot of people found works best? Iv been eating my big complex carb meal about 30 mins or less after my shake, is that wrong?

[RiCHARD7o2]

Is gatorade a good postworkout drink?

[rlyon]

Forgive my ignorance, but creatine post workout and not before?

I just read the big creatine thread and improved upon my ignorance. I have been taking my creatine before workouts, so now I'll change that.

[Rev_Chris]

Hey , I take creatine before and after my workouts before to raise the level and after to restor eit once its been used

[kamikazikid]

Hey bud, I've got a thought for you.
Drink your phosphagen (or whatever creatine you take) abouty 30 minutes till the end of your workout. That way, after you finish your workout, you can immediately get all the whey protein and other absorbtion-hindering nutrients into your body.

Thats pretty much how I work it. I sip on xceed during my workout and right when I finish my w/o, I drink 2 scoops of ON whey and a large glass of orange juice or other sugary drink. I probably should switch to a drink with dextrose instead of fructose now that I think of it.....

But yea, maybe try that scheme of things.

[HealthNut4Life]

This is a great "formula"! You can add a couple grams of Taurine too.

And yes, wait a full hour. Give it a chance to leave your digestive system and enter your bloodstream before eating or you risk storing that meal instead of using it for recovery.

Take this anabolic shake:

2 scoops of whey
.5Xyour weight of dext/malto (90g for me)
5g of creatine
10g of glutamine
Vitamins C and E

and your good to go. An hour after, eat a big complex carbs meal with minimum of fat.

I'm eating sweet potatoes with tuna and veggies

That's what I learned and it's working for me.