Palatinose, Dextrose, Maltodextrin or Sucrose; Best choice pre/during/postWO?

[HalleluYAH]

Okay, in light of recent research, I am trying to determine which source would be ideal for all three segments; pre, during and post WO.

Most studies done on the subject of preWO CHO+AA supplement have used sucrose; aka table sugar. Sucrose is comprised of the monosaccharides glucose and fructose and is a disaccharide.

Another disaccharide getting alot of attention these days is I****ltulose; aka Palatinose. It appears this is really nothing more than sucrose with additional fructose, hence the lower GI score of approx. 20 versus sucrose at approx. 60.

In addition to various other disaccharides, we have monosaccharides which are much more rapidly digested, such as dextrose (glucose). Lastly, we have the polysaccharide Maltodextrin which is digested as rapidly as dextrose.

So, if a low GI is the only concern, then why not just take fructose? Well, the answer appears to be goal specific. For a bodybuilder it seems there are several important factors to consider when determining which CHO source would be ideal for the pre/during/post WO scenario.

The chosen source should provide an efficient supply of metabolic energy, while minimizing accumulation of adipose (fat). This source of energy should not only fuel the workout, but should also prevent the catabolism of muscle proteins and/or dietary amino acids/whey taken pre/during and post WO. What's more, this source should also take into considering hypoglycemia which is also certainly not desired in the pre/during WO stage. Another factor is the size of the dose of this chosen source; namely 10g of XXX pre/during/post etc.

The choices are listed above in the poll. I am hoping this will turn into a friendly debate, and will help us all make a collective decision based on the ideas, educated opinions, personal experiences of bb.com community members combined with any/all available scientific data.

Let the topic begin. Best wishes and happy hypertrophy!

[Tarkana]

the whole car choice thing is really tricky, as everyone has there own preferences with little to support one being better than another, so it'll be interesting what reasing ppl will put behind choices. on one hand, the carbohydrates need to be absorbed quickly to repair ur muscles quickly, but then you also want a sustained cho flow. For that, i feel a mixture is the best answer anyone could come up with. I figure during-workout, dex would be best because then ur just keeping and energy supply in and constant. Pre depends on how long before lifting u take it, but if it's >30 minutes as most ppl do, i suppose something like palatinose or supercarb or really anythingthat can provide a sustained release. Post, i would suppose a mix of malto/dex immediately post, followed by a slower-digesting carb 5-10 min. later. As for amounts, it depends on both the person and the workout (esp. duration), but here would be my rough estimate on what would be good:
30-45 min. pre - 30g palatinose/rolled oats or something of the like
during - 15g dex
immediately post - 20g malto/dex
~10 min later - 20g rolled oats/steel cut oats/palatinose
some may consider that too little if ur a big guy trying to pack on more mass, or too much if ur trying to stay lean, so all those variables need to be considered.

btw, dunno if u've seen it, but t-nation has a new article from Berardi bout stuff along these lines, u might wanna check it out.

[HalleluYAH]

the whole car choice thing is really tricky, as everyone has there own preferences with little to support one being better than another, so it'll be interesting what reasing ppl will put behind choices. on one hand, the carbohydrates need to be absorbed quickly to repair ur muscles quickly, but then you also want a sustained cho flow. For that, i feel a mixture is the best answer anyone could come up with. I figure during-workout, dex would be best because then ur just keeping and energy supply in and constant. Pre depends on how long before lifting u take it, but if it's >30 minutes as most ppl do, i suppose something like palatinose or supercarb or really anythingthat can provide a sustained release. Post, i would suppose a mix of malto/dex immediately post, followed by a slower-digesting carb 5-10 min. later. As for amounts, it depends on both the person and the workout (esp. duration), but here would be my rough estimate on what would be good:
30-45 min. pre - 30g palatinose/rolled oats or something of the like
during - 15g dex
immediately post - 20g malto/dex
~10 min later - 20g rolled oats/steel cut oats/palatinose
some may consider that too little if ur a big guy trying to pack on more mass, or too much if ur trying to stay lean, so all those variables need to be considered.

btw, dunno if u've seen it, but t-nation has a new article from Berardi bout

Is Is this the Berardo article you are referring too? http://www.johnberardi.com/articles/...aneating_2.htm

Based on his writing, and some additional feedback I received from other educated personel, it appears Maltodextrin may be a great choice. Seems doses would have to be small in the pre/during WO scenario to preven hypoglycemia though. In short duration, anaerobic training like 45 min of highly intense weight training, this may prove sufficient.

Thoughts?

[rake922]

You have too many options.

But anyways I voted for dextrose... 60 grams post workout

[Tarkana]

that one is a bit older, bu still o good source of info.

http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=1173228

it talks about athletic training a bit more, including endurance exercise, but it recommends a pretty good dose of carbs for during. being that i have a very fast metabolism, i consider a large amount of carbs to be a good idea, esp. for immediately post. some ppl don't think so, but i think at that timing it will only do good to get a good supply.
As far as hypoglycemia goes, obviously having a large amount of high GI carbs right before you workout wouldn't be the best idea. But if u get in a large supply of low GI carbs a while before, it shouldn't has this negative effect, and a larger amount would still ensure that it gives you the energy u need. in fact, a pre-pre of oats would probably be another helpful asset. if u were to take 40g steelcut/rolled oats mix 70-90min pre then 30-40g palatinose (or that trehalose stuff u were talking about, sounds interesting) ~30 min pre, u should have a pretty good supply of cho ready, but your stomach should be sufficiently clear and ur blood sugar relatively stable. during the workout, u want a carb that will be digested quickly and easily, so thats why dex is good - its quick and light. this, u could take a bit more, but just not too much at once, since u don't want any digestion inteference. immediately post-workout i think u can just slam down a large amount of high gi carbs (any1 know anything bout waxy maize starch?) like dex/malto to refuel quickly and help get th insulin going and jumpstart the recovery. then, a little bit after that, another large supply of slow digesting carbs is good to keep the energy flow streaming in.
This is all what i think is best. what i actually do isn't quite so amazing, but i try to get as close as i can, and plan to pick up some palatinose or trehalose or something of the like with my next order. just as we said before, what is optimal is just something we try to get closer and closer to, though we can never actually reach it.

[HalleluYAH]

You have too many options.

But anyways I voted for dextrose... 60 grams post workout

the vote is for a single dose which can be taken pre, during & post WO. one can easily add additional CHO sources to the post WO nutrition, so the key emphasis should be placed on pre and during WO.

[HalleluYAH]

that one is a bit older, bu still o good source of info.

http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=1173228

thanks for the link, and good post. here is a quote from Berardi which I find most intriguing...

Next, I'd like to illustrate the differences between popular liquid carbohydrates including maltodextrin, dextrose, fructose, and sucrose.

Maltodextrin is a glucose polymer (a string of glucose units put together, similar to the protein peptide). It is therefore, by definition, a complex carbohydrate. However it's more complex nature does NOT slow digestion. Therefore, the GI and II remain high. Maltodextrin is the absolute best carbohydrate to consume during exercise for rapidly delivering blood glucose and for muscle glycogen recovery. It's also best for fluid uptake.

Dextrose (glucose) is a simple carbohydrate unit (similar to the amino acid). While it's good for exercise situations (malto is better), you're probably better off adding some dextrose to your maltodextrin formula. A little bit of dextrose may enhance the already excellent fluid uptake that occurs with maltodextrin during exercise.

[cobain67]

What about this?

60-90 mins pre:
30g carbs from Barley
1 scoop GF Pro
2tbsp PB
1c milk

During Workout:
30g Waxy Maize
15g XTend
10g WPI

30 minutes PW:
30g carbs from Barley
.5 scoop GF Pro
1c FF Cottage Cheese


This would be tailored to a 2x/day training protocol, with the later workout utilizing 15g WM instead of 30g.

Just a quick idea..

[Tarkana]

thanks for the link, and good post. here is a quote from Berardi which I find most intriguing...

huh, interesting. so i suppose the best high GI carbs supply would be a 2:1 mix of matlo/dex, like 20g malto, 10g dex? wow, i usually used more malto than dex anyway, guess thats the best way to go, just up the dosage. this'll be pretty intriguing indeed. Several ppl aughta try using high doses of high gi carbs surroundin workout and see the reaction. like 50g malto/dex pre, 30g during, 60g post.

[Nathan1]

Halleluyah

1) define "pre"

2) is this poll just a personal poll, like, 'VOTE for what works best for you and your goals?' type of thing?

[Nathan1]

like 50g malto/dex pre, 30g during, 60g post.

I have tried this with exception to the pre carbs...mine were from oats. 25-30g dextrose/malto during, 50-60g total mixed post w/o.

[sawastea]

Here is some more reading.

[NATHAN518]

i will vote for other source...but, i think it all depends a lot on the scenario...what are the hypothetical person's goals? there is no one optimal pre/during/post regimen. It varies greatly between different scenarios.
For me, when bulking, i would advocate a solid meal preworkout consisting of some kind of carb (i like brown rice here) and some kind of meat. totals should equal about 40g PRO/40g carbs. During workout nutrition is absolutely unnecessary if the preworkout meal has been properly timed (whole meal about 60-90 minutes preworkout or if you do a shake, about 30-60 minutes prior). Post workout, when BULKING, i like about 50g WPI and approx 50g dex/50g carbs from oats for a 2:1 carb to protein ratio.

This is what i have found to be optimal after A LOT of experimentation.

Again, we can't talk specifics about what is optimal without knowing what we are trying to do.

[Tarkana]

interesting read, pretty much confirmed the malto/dex mixture thing. nathan518, yeah the whole variables thing really takes away the possibility of finding one optimal set-up. for pre, i think just a solid meal pre isn't the best, but as a pre-pre its good. i think a pre shake is a good way to go since u can take it closer and it'll be digested with better timing and give u more of the right nutrients for the digestion speed (yeah, that didn't make a whole lot of sense, but i hope u can figure out what i mean). ur post is definately top notch. i'd do it too if i could afford all that wpi.

[Dimitar]

I'd personally go with 60g trehalose before and SizeOn (31g of CHO) + a banana after. If those sugars are really that slow to digest having them pre-(and, therefore, during) workout is probably better than just after. I don't really think having them before and after is crucial since my routine is very low volume.

[Tarkana]

I'd personally go with 60g trehalose before and SizeOn (31g of CHO) + a banana after. If those sugars are really that slow to digest having them pre-(and, therefore, during) workout is probably better than just after. I don't really think having them before and after is crucial since my routine is very low volume.

so do u actually use trehalose then? where do u get it and how expensive is it?

[Dimitar]

It should be here this week, it's available at TP.

[Tarkana]

sweetness. sounds good, i'll have to grab some then

[HalleluYAH]

Halleluyah

1) define "pre"

2) is this poll just a personal poll, like, 'VOTE for what works best for you and your goals?' type of thing?

hi Nathan.

1) "pre" meaning immediately preWO. say like, sipping on a cocktail en route to the gym.

2) Yes and no. there are several reasons why I am asking. the main reason is to deicde for myself, once and for all, which is optimal.

[HalleluYAH]

Here is some more reading.

awesome link sawastea! I love reading Venom's work.

[HalleluYAH]

Again, we can't talk specifics about what is optimal without knowing what we are trying to do.

45-50 min of highly intense, anaerobic resistance training. goals are to create microtears/microtrauma to saromeres and myofibril, ultimately leading to increased protein re-synthesis and then muscle hypertrophy. All the while minimizing/attenuating potential adipose (fat) accumulation.

[Phosphate bond]

I put down Palatinose even though I haven't tried it yet (just going by the GI numbers)

Really dextrose wouldn't be so bad during training because you have epinephrine suppressing insulin release by the pancreas, but at other times I'm not so sure how great it would be. Although Hal the doses you have listed are not that high so even with dextrose the glycemic load is still relatively low.

[njmuscle66]

It should be here this week, it's available at TP.

I have used starchy maize with great success. trehalose is a new one I am unfamiliar with. what are the benefits?

[NumberTwentyTwo]

Preworkout (45 mins) = Palatinose

During = High Fructose Corn syrup (Dextrose if you think HFCS is evil = Saw)
I honestly like HFCS during workout more that dextrose. I believ there are studies w cyclist that show support for this

Post Workout = Dextrose + Malto

[NATHAN518]

45-50 min of highly intense, anaerobic resistance training. goals are to create microtears/microtrauma to saromeres and myofibril, ultimately leading to increased protein re-synthesis and then muscle hypertrophy. All the while minimizing/attenuating potential adipose (fat) accumulation.

In this case if you are insistent upon a preworkout shake, palatinose or any lower GI carb would be preferred here. Even oats would be great because as mentioned previously, I favor whole food for preworkout.
Again, with proper timing, there should be no need for any nutrition during your workout. With a goal of MINIMIZING adipose accretion, the same source (palatinose/oats...low GI) is to be preferred in the postworkout period as well. This will provide a more steady release of insulin, still providing its nutrient shuttling benefits, but avoiding the "spike" and rapid increase seen with high GI/II/GL carbs in large doses.

[cobain67]

What about this?

60-90 mins pre:
30g carbs from Barley
1 scoop GF Pro
2tbsp PB
1c milk

During Workout:
30g Waxy Maize
15g XTend
10g WPI

30 minutes PW:
30g carbs from Barley
.5 scoop GF Pro
1c FF Cottage Cheese


This would be tailored to a 2x/day training protocol, with the later workout utilizing 15g WM instead of 30g.

Just a quick idea..

Any thoughts?

[HalleluYAH]

Although Hal the doses you have listed are not that high so even with dextrose the glycemic load is still relatively low.

Exactly! With that in mind, if the dose was intended for use immediately pre, during & immediately post WO, then I am leaning towards a 2:1 malto/dex ratio at a dose of 10-15g. How does that sound? Adipose accumulation should be a non-issue at that dose, when taken pre/during WO, correct?

[NATHAN518]

adipose accumulation will not be an issue, but that is a small dose...glycogen replenishment WILL be an issue IMO

[HalleluYAH]

adipose accumulation will not be an issue, but that is a small dose...glycogen replenishment WILL be an issue IMO

agreed, however pre/during WO is the question at hand. as stated; we can easily add additional CHO to our post WO regimen to glycogen replenishment.

walking the line between available glucose versus energy expenditure is the key in pre/during scenario. taking hypoglycemia out of the mix by using a smaller dose, it seems that providing small amounts of a simple sugar would help regulate availability. or, am I over simplifying this?

I still take 1 cup oats 90min preWO, the question is whether or not to add 10-15g of CHO to my pre/during WO EAA+Leucine or WPI+Leucine cocktails.???

If so, which one is optimal; hence the poll. Post WO is another beast, although I would likely sip this same cocktail on the way home from the gym as well. And then, once home, continue on with my regular post WO nutrition.

Thoughts?

[NATHAN518]

agreed, however pre/during WO is the question at hand. as stated; we can easily add additional CHO to our post WO regimen to glycogen replenishment.

walking the line between available glucose versus energy expenditure is the key in pre/during scenario. taking hypoglycemia out of the mix by using a smaller dose, it seems that providing small amounts of a simple sugar would help regulate availability. or, am I over simplifying this?

I still take 1 cup oats 90min preWO, the question is whether or not to add 10-15g of CHO to my pre/during WO EAA+Leucine or WPI+Leucine cocktails.???

If so, which one is optimal; hence the poll. Post WO is another beast, although I would likely sip this same cocktail on the way home from the gym as well. And then, once home, continue on with my regular post WO nutrition.

Thoughts?

not talking so much about postworkout glycogen replenishment, although it should not be overlooked. Glycogen is the limiting fuel DURING exercise, especially over the more "aesthetic" rep ranges (6-8). Carbohydrate availability is the key to sparing glycogen. Now, the fact that you are having oats pre-pre workout (which have a low GI and II score) would leave you mid-absorptive during workout negating the need for any further carbohydrate consumption. Remember, we are trying to spare glycogen here and this is best accomplished with lower GI carbs. Yes, amino acid availability comes into play as well, but not so much as carbs for preserving glycogen. IMO, if you are having a meal 60-90 minutes prior there is not much benefit to AA+CHO drinks in the pre/during phase. Especially given the length of time we are talking about for this workout (you said 45ish minutes). AA+CHO would be beneficial IF you are working out in extremely long bouts OR you are doing lengthy cardio immediately after training.
Obviously, many will disagree here...