ATG Squat Reps

[RippedGuitarist]

Well I tried to search, but the search button wasn't working, so I figured screw it, I'll post this newbie-esque question. Do you feel legs respond better to higher reps? I've always heard people say it, but never really thought about it till recently.

Since I started lifting heavier(which was a quite a while ago) I've had a much more difficult time upping the weights on squats, in fact the weight has decreased and is currently stagnant. A few weeks ago I started a twice a week split as some of you know, I'm doing squats and deads heavy on the same days twice a week. It hasn't helped my squats, but I'm hitting PR's on my Deads like never before and I do them after squats, and no I'm not holding back on squats either, I already know that's coming.

Just so you know, I've always been an edurance athlete, running long distances has always been easy for me. Any opinions guys?

[olympic]

I don't think going higher in reps will fix your plateau. Have you checked the mandatory food, sleep and overtraining factors?

[passerby]

When was the last time you had a rest week? Someone posted this article recently about how a rest week could help break a plateau: http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=546953

As for your reps question, I've found it easier to progress in weight by using lower reps (I use 5).

P.S. woot my 500th post!

[The Real Deal]

Originally Posted by RippedGuitarist

A few weeks ago I started a twice a week split as some of you know, I'm doing squats and deads heavy on the same days twice a week. It hasn't helped my squats, but I'm hitting PR's on my Deads like never before and I do them after squats, and no I'm not holding back on squats either, I already know that's coming.

woah u deadlift + squat heavy twice a week? i really wouldnt suggest this at all, considering how taxing deadlifts can be and then throw in heavy squats, sounds like a recipe for disaster. i'd definately suggest deading once a week and possibly doing a light squat (on deadlift day) and heavy squat day during the week.
recently i've had success on squats by increasing the weight while reducing the reps, in an attempt to get my body to adapt to heavier weight. whether legs respond to higher reps or not, im still waiting myself...but if the avg weight is going up, then something must be going right.

[45BIG]

I have had sticking points with squats in the past. If you are talking three to five rep sets then I know where you are coming from because there was a point where they were not getting it done. I move to sets of numbing 10. Towards the end of the four week program they are absolutely brutal like running a full blown 400 meter. I did three sets of 10 for four weeks twice a week and than rested for a week and returned to a program based on 5s. I was able to move beyond the sticking point.

[RippedGuitarist]

Originally Posted by olympic

I don't think going higher in reps will fix your plateau. Have you checked the mandatory food, sleep and overtraining factors?

Definitely, my diet is better than ever I think, I'm getting 7-8 hours of sleep and pretty much every lift is going up very consistantly, I hit PR's across the board today, except for squats. And the funny thing is my legs are growing extremely fast, I'm guessing due to Deadlifts increasing. I just had a week off about 4 weeks ago as well, and probably somewhere between 8-12 weeks before that.

The only thing that makes sense to me is the rep scheme so far, the squats started their decline and stagnation around the same time I switched to lower reps.

[olympic]

Originally Posted by RippedGuitarist

Definitely, my diet is better than ever I think, I'm getting 7-8 hours of sleep and pretty much every lift is going up very consistantly, I hit PR's across the board today, except for squats. And the funny thing is my legs are growing extremely fast, I'm guessing due to Deadlifts increasing. I just had a week off about 4 weeks ago as well, and probably somewhere between 8-12 weeks before that.

The only thing that makes sense to me is the rep scheme so far, the squats started their decline and stagnation around the same time I switched to lower reps.

If possible start getting 10 hours sleep a night. Go to sleep at 9pm and wake at 7am. Thats feasible for anyone willing to give up late night tv. Your body and gains will thank you for the extra sleep because most of your repairing happens while you are sleeping.

If your legs and PR's are going up and you don't feel overtrained then I wouldn't worry about it too much. Your squat will improve with time- just let it happen.

[RippedGuitarist]

Originally Posted by The Real Deal

woah u deadlift + squat heavy twice a week? i really wouldnt suggest this at all, considering how taxing deadlifts can be and then throw in heavy squats, sounds like a recipe for disaster. i'd definately suggest deading once a week and possibly doing a light squat (on deadlift day) and heavy squat day during the week.
recently i've had success on squats by increasing the weight while reducing the reps, in an attempt to get my body to adapt to heavier weight. whether legs respond to higher reps or not, im still waiting myself...but if the avg weight is going up, then something must be going right.

Well its fairly low volume carried out for about 3-4weeks, then I do a once a week to give myself a break. But this definitely isn't the cause since the decrease began well before I started this program, and in fact the decrease has slowed some since I started this, but obviously I want to be progressing not decreasing.

[olympic]

If you try the 10 hours sleep a night that I mentioned before but you still don't see anything happening with your squat this is what I usually do to break a plateau-

Only do this if you checked the food, sleep and overtraining factors.
Take 2 days rest. This will give you 3 nights of rest to repair. Then head to the gym for just a squat day. Warmup and then start doing heavy triples. Add 20 pounds to each triple until you feel you cant add any more. Hammer out a few more triples and then add 20 pounds again and go for a double. Don't worry about going for a 1RM- its not needed.
The next time you train squats your body will find it quite easy I am sure.

I guess this also answers your beginning question- imo decreasing the reps and increasing the weight will help break through a plateau far better than vice versa.

[RippedGuitarist]

Originally Posted by olympic

If possible start getting 10 hours sleep a night. Go to sleep at 9pm and wake at 7am. Thats feasible for anyone willing to give up late night tv. Your body and gains will thank you for the extra sleep because most of your repairing happens while you are sleeping.

I don't watch t.v. But that 7-8 is more of a minimum, I do get 9 and 10 hours from time to time, though my body doesn't seem to require it. On occasion I do get a nap in for about an hour or two as well, though I try not to do it very often, because its messes up my sleep schedule.

[yabbayabba]

Don't know if you could fit it in, but maybe just the squat part of Madcow's 5x5 with the rest of your routine. Or look into some micro weights. I have a pair of chains that weigh 1.2 pounds together. A pound a week adds up over time.

[KURNHO]

Off-topic.

When you guys go ATG squats, do your calves touch your butt? Basically I go as far down as possible, am I taking the term "ATG" too literal?

[LSU1]

Originally Posted by RippedGuitarist

Well I tried to search, but the search button wasn't working, so I figured screw it, I'll post this newbie-esque question. Do you feel legs respond better to higher reps? I've always heard people say it, but never really thought about it till recently.

Since I started lifting heavier(which was a quite a while ago) I've had a much more difficult time upping the weights on squats, in fact the weight has decreased and is currently stagnant. A few weeks ago I started a twice a week split as some of you know, I'm doing squats and deads heavy on the same days twice a week. It hasn't helped my squats, but I'm hitting PR's on my Deads like never before and I do them after squats, and no I'm not holding back on squats either, I already know that's coming.

Just so you know, I've always been an edurance athlete, running long distances has always been easy for me. Any opinions guys?

well first of all i wouldnt try to go heavy on squats on the same day that i go heavy on deads. I do a system where i go light one day and heavy another day during the week. I feel the mix is good for my legs, and they have responded very well. Since you are also on a twice a week split, why not do a light day and a heavy day?

[olympic]

Originally Posted by KURNHO

Off-topic.

When you guys go ATG squats, do your calves touch your butt? Basically I go as far down as possible, am I taking the term "ATG" too literal?

If you have the flexibility to go down to your calves then definatley do it

[RippedGuitarist]

Originally Posted by LSU1

well first of all i wouldnt try to go heavy on squats on the same day that i go heavy on deads. I do a system where i go light one day and heavy another day during the week. I feel the mix is good for my legs, and they have responded very well. Since you are also on a twice a week split, why not do a light day and a heavy day?

well I guess I don't really feel the need to, my overall volume is much less than successful squat and deadlift once a weeks i've done in the past. Plus the fact that I have 72 and 96 hours between workouts of lower back and legs and the fact that I'm not doing any lower back assistance work prevents it from getting overtrained. I figure I might as well go heavy to find out if its too much for me, of course a heavy/light is in the back of my mind of course in case I feel I'm overtraining at some point, but so far its going well with everything else, but it hasn't helped my already lagging squats.

I still feel that many people's workouts doing squats and front squats and deadlifts on back day, plus assistance work is much more difficult than doing 3 sets of squats and 3 sets of deads twice a week.

[de_barathrum]

i doubt its the lack of sleep or your diet. squats, especially heavy squats burn the **** out of my CNS. i can only imagine what doing them twice a week must do. some people seem to get away with it just fine, but there is no way i can squat heavy for long periods of time without light days/dynamic days and still make gains.

you may just respond better to higher reps too. nothing builds my legs up more than doing 20 reps in a set on squats, regardless of whether they are widowmakers or not.

[JOHN GARGANI]

regardless of whether they are widowmakers or not.

HAHHAH! never heard them referred to as that! great, DeBA!

first of all: to KURNHO: yes, they can be taken literally: my ATG squats have my butt no more than 3 inches from the ground.....

Ripped: I am too prejudiced here, as I have been promoting high rep squats all my life.....not only do they fully stimulate the muscles, get the heart rate pumping like no other, but, you are most likely to avoid injury, since the combination of ATG and high reps precludes using too high a weight......


but then, this of course has a lot to do with your objectives, regarding the size of your legs: meaning: what size do they start out with , and what size you would be happy with......

my legs were always naturally big, in fact, it took me years at first to balance out my upper body with my legs: if I had taken the heavy squat route, I might have been permanently stuck in imbalance city......

also: I had witnessed first hand, guys falling out under a heavy squat, and it is not a pretty thing: neither is the long layoff, or sometimes, permanent damage to their knees or spine, so, I made a decision early on , that I would like to do squats all of my life, instead of shoot the moon while I was young...

well.....It worked! so I still do them today.......

now: and a lot of the guys on there will disagree with me on this: I never wanted the really huge thigh look, meaning, where you can't even walk straight, as in the pros.......just my preference......

but it can't hurt to give high reps a shot: the best improvements I ever made on my legs was when I was doing a 3X25 routine with Squats....and, for the information of everyone on here that warned you about doing too many of them, I was doing that Three times a week for a good 6 months!!!

3 times a week, 3x25: when I finally let up a bit on that program, I was able to stuff a tennis ball on a regulation basketball hoop, and I am only 5 feet 7 and a half......those were good ol' days!

by the way, my philosoply extends also to extensions and leg curls, of which I also shoot for very high reps......

[2MuChBoDyFaT]

Originally Posted by RippedGuitarist

Since I started lifting heavier(which was a quite a while ago) I've had a much more difficult time upping the weights on squats
...

Originally Posted by RippedGuitarist

And the funny thing is my legs are growing extremely fast ...

Hey mate, I'm sure you probably don't want to hear this, but ....

If you're legs are growing fast, then what does it matter what numbers are written on the plates you are squatting ???

[RippedGuitarist]

Originally Posted by 2MuChBoDyFaT

Hey mate, I'm sure you probably don't want to hear this, but ....

If you're legs are growing fast, then what does it matter what numbers are written on the plates you are squatting ???

Yeah I do see your point, and I am primarily a bodybuilder at heart, but I do know that progressive overload is key to continued growth. While I'm growing now, I'm looking to the future. I know it can't last long if my squats are stagnant, and to tell you the truth I wouldn't care much if it was just a plateau, because I'm growing. But to see my numbers drop is quite discouraging for me, because even when I severly overtrained I didn't drop more than a rep or two from one week to another.

[RippedGuitarist]

Originally Posted by JOHN GARGANI

HAHHAH! never heard them referred to as that! great, DeBA!

first of all: to KURNHO: yes, they can be taken literally: my ATG squats have my butt no more than 3 inches from the ground.....

Ripped: I am too prejudiced here, as I have been promoting high rep squats all my life.....not only do they fully stimulate the muscles, get the heart rate pumping like no other, but, you are most likely to avoid injury, since the combination of ATG and high reps precludes using too high a weight......


but then, this of course has a lot to do with your objectives, regarding the size of your legs: meaning: what size do they start out with , and what size you would be happy with......

my legs were always naturally big, in fact, it took me years at first to balance out my upper body with my legs: if I had taken the heavy squat route, I might have been permanently stuck in imbalance city......

also: I had witnessed first hand, guys falling out under a heavy squat, and it is not a pretty thing: neither is the long layoff, or sometimes, permanent damage to their knees or spine, so, I made a decision early on , that I would like to do squats all of my life, instead of shoot the moon while I was young...

well.....It worked! so I still do them today.......

now: and a lot of the guys on there will disagree with me on this: I never wanted the really huge thigh look, meaning, where you can't even walk straight, as in the pros.......just my preference......

but it can't hurt to give high reps a shot: the best improvements I ever made on my legs was when I was doing a 3X25 routine with Squats....and, for the information of everyone on here that warned you about doing too many of them, I was doing that Three times a week for a good 6 months!!!

3 times a week, 3x25: when I finally let up a bit on that program, I was able to stuff a tennis ball on a regulation basketball hoop, and I am only 5 feet 7 and a half......those were good ol' days!

by the way, my philosoply extends also to extensions and leg curls, of which I also shoot for very high reps......

I was really looking forward to getting your opinion on this one John, I was waiting for your response. I know you tend to advocate experimenting with different rep ranges for different exercises and/or different bodyparts. I'm glad to hear you have had success with high reps, that gives me a bit more confidence in my experimentation. I wasn't necessarily thinking of going up to 20-25 reps, but that's definitely something I'll try out.

As far as my goals, I'm not looking for Branch Warren's legs, but I wouldn't mind having legs measuring in the upper 20's or maybe even 30". Which IS fairly large if you ask me. Right now I'd say they are mid 20's.

Yesterday I reviewed some old MD magazines an ran through some of Charles Glass' articles, and he seems to advocate higher reps for legs as well, especially quads. He has his clients working anywhere from 8-25 reps, which is pretty interesting to me.

I'm definitely going to have to experiment and see how it goes.

[blinKme431]

Originally Posted by The Real Deal

woah u deadlift + squat heavy twice a week?

It's not that bad at all...
Rippetoe has you squat heavy THREE times a week and deadlift heavy TWICE a week (well, twice every other week, once every other week). And I'm busting my ass and seeing sick gains.

[pianoguy62]

Hi, I realize it's been nearly a month since the last post in this thread, so hopefully you aren't having any issues anymore. But just in case, I thought you might be interested in the idea of "supramaximal holds" as a way of breaking through your plateau. See page 25 (post #735) of the "going to failure" sticky at the top of the "exercises" thread. It's described in an article by Chad Waterbury about the role of the nervous system in weight training.

The shorthand example he gives is:

Warmup 1: 5 x 70% of 1RM
rest 90"
Warmup 2: 3 x 75% of 1RM
rest 90"
Warmup 3: 3 x 85% of 1RM
rest 120"

Then:
1) statically hold 120% of 1RM just short of lockout for 10 sec.
rest 45-60"
2) do as many reps as possible with 90% of 1RM
rest 240" (i.e., 4 minutes)
3) repeat steps 1) and 2)

There's also a link there to an article about this in t-mag.

I haven't tried this yet myself (since I'm a little leery of the whole idea of low-rep squats), but if you're up for it, it sounds like it might be useful. As for calculating your 1RM (since I assume you don't want to test it directly!), I know there's a chart for that in Stuart McRobert's "Beyond Brawn," and presumably one available on this site somewhere.

Good luck!