The Official Middle East Conflict Thread

[TranceNRG]

Morality is not on our side

By Ze'ev Maoz

There's practically a holy consensus right now that the war in the North is a just war and that morality is on our side. The bitter truth must be said: this holy consensus is based on short-range selective memory, an introverted worldview, and double standards.

This war is not a just war. Israel is using excessive force without distinguishing between civilian population and enemy, whose sole purpose is extortion. That is not to say that morality and justice are on Hezbollah's side. Most certainly not. But the fact that Hezbollah "started it" when it kidnapped soldiers from across an international border does not even begin to tilt the scales of justice toward our side.

Let's start with a few facts. We invaded a sovereign state, and occupied its capital in 1982. In the process of this occupation, we dropped several tons of bombs from the air, ground and sea, while wounding and killing thousands of civilians. Approximately 14,000 civilians were killed between June and September of 1982, according to a conservative estimate. The majority of these civilians had nothing to do with the PLO, which provided the official pretext for the war.



In Operations Accountability and Grapes of Wrath, we caused the mass flight of about 500,000 refugees from southern Lebanon on each occasion. There are no exact data on the number of casualties in these operations, but one can recall that in Operation Grapes of Wrath, we bombed a shelter in the village of Kafr Kana which killed 103 civilians. The bombing may have been accidental, but that did not make the operation any more moral.

On July 28, 1989, we kidnapped Sheikh Obeid, and on May 12, 1994, we kidnapped Mustafa Dirani, who had captured Ron Arad. Israel held these two people and another 20-odd Lebanese detainees without trial, as "negotiating chips." That which is permissible to us is, of course, forbidden to Hezbollah.

Hezbollah crossed a border that is recognized by the international community. That is true. What we are forgetting is that ever since our withdrawal from Lebanon, the Israel Air Force has conducted photo-surveillance sorties on a daily basis in Lebanese airspace. While these flights caused no casualties, border violations are border violations. Here too, morality is not on our side.

So much for the history of morality. Now, let's consider current affairs. What exactly is the difference between launching Katyushas into civilian population centers in Israel and the Israel Air Force bombing population centers in south Beirut, Tyre, Sidon and Tripoli? The IDF has fired thousands of shells into south Lebanon villages, alleging that Hezbollah men are concealed among the civilian population. Approximately 25 Israeli civilians have been killed as a result of Katyusha missiles to date. The number of dead in Lebanon, the vast majority comprised of civilians who have nothing to do with Hezbollah, is more than 300.

Worse yet, bombing infrastructure targets such as power stations, bridges and other civil facilities turns the entire Lebanese civilian population into a victim and hostage, even if we are not physically harming civilians. The use of bombings to achieve a diplomatic goal - namely, coercing the Lebanese government into implementing UN Security Council Resolution 1559 - is an attempt at political blackmail, and no less than the kidnapping of IDF soldiers by Hezbollah is the aim of bringing about a prisoner exchange.

There is a propaganda aspect to this war, and it involves a competition as to who is more miserable. Each side tries to persuade the world that it is more miserable. As in every propaganda campaign, the use of information is selective, distorted and self-righteous. If we want to base our information (or shall we call it propaganda?) policy on the assumption that the international environment is going to buy the dubious merchandise that we are selling, be it out of ignorance or hypocrisy, then fine. But in terms of our own national soul searching, we owe ourselves to confront the bitter truth - maybe we will win this conflict on the military field, maybe we will make some diplomatic gains, but on the moral plane, we have no advantage, and we have no special status.

The writer is a professor of political science at Tel Aviv university.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/742257.html

[MantisShrimp]

Post ME war articles here please.
5 Starred.

Lay off the propaganda too

Remember the first thing to die in a war is the truth. We needn't drag its body behind a car and then kick it around an open field like a futbol.

[TranceNRG]

Post ME war articles here please.
5 Starred.

Lay off the propaganda too

Remember the first thing to die in a war is the truth. We needn't drag its body behind a car and then kick it around an open field like a futbol.

I believe each article will at least have a touch of bias to it, from either side.
It's important to read both, think independently and critically to reach one's own conclusion.

But...
If anyone wants to post an article or news in here, post the source too.

peace

[Weightaholic]

I believe each article will at least have a touch of bias to it, from either side.

To say they've had a "touch of bias" is like saying "the bible is a bit preachy".

[Norman]

Why Israel's Reaction is Right

By Matthias Küntzel

The natural reaction to the current violence in the Middle East is one of horror. It's time for a cease-fire, right? Not necessarily. Pacifism would only help the radicals.

When it comes to Israel, public opinion in Europe walks a fine line. Israel's overreaction and use of overwhelming force, say most, is to be condemned and criticized. But in the same breath, Hezbollah's provocation is likewise reviled and rejected as the militant group's unceasing attacks on Israeli civilians are cited. Both sides are judged using the same criteria and both sides come out stained with some blame for the current conflagration.



Click on a picture to launch the image gallery (16 Photos).
But this seemingly nuanced point of view is misleading. In reality, German and European public opinion does take sides -- and it tends to side with the apparent underdog and against Israel.

It has almost become a reflex on the Continent. In 2003, 59 percent of all Europeans pointed to Israel as the country presenting the greatest risk to world peace. On the third day of the current crisis, fully three quarters of all Germans polled were convinced that Israel was overreacting and using too much force in its response to Hezbollah. And since then, the images coming from the war zone have set the tenor: A cease-fire, most believe, should begin as soon as possible.

I disagree -- and have four reasons for doing so.

First, Israel is fighting a just war. Germany and the European Union should unequivocally back Israel.

Islamism has attacked Israel from both the south and the north and Israel has no choice but to react. But there is more to it than that. Israel's military operation is important for the entire Western world. Until 2005, Islamism was able to successfully mislead the West into thinking that the "occupation" of Gaza and southern Lebanon was the cause of the terror attacks carried out against Israel. Now we know better: Islamism isn't out to change Israeli policy in the region, Islamism is out to completely eradicate the country of Israel. The same strategy is being used on a larger scale: The Middle East conflict is not the cause of Tehran's conflict with Western secularism. It is merely a convenient alibi.

Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad himself has pointed to Islam's larger conflict with the Western world. When, in October of 2005, he called for the elimination of Israel, he added: "We are in the middle of a historical war that has been going on for hundreds of years." This war, Ahmadinejad's war, has nothing to do with the most recent flare up of the Middle East conflict. "The current war taking place in Palestine," Ahmadinejad has said, is nothing more than "the frontline between the Islamic world and the world of arrogance. We have to recognize the baseness of our enemy so that our holy hatred expands continuously and strikes like a wave."

This "holy hatred" comes with no conditions attached. It doesn't depend on whether one is Jewish or not -- the single measuring stick is whether one blindly obeys the Sharia and dedicates one's life to the Koran. And this "hate" wouldn't disappear were Israel to cease to exist -- the Islamist creed calls for the "World of Arrogance" to also submit to the Sharia, meaning this genocidal wave of hate should ultimately spread across the globe. In order to expedite this goal, the Iranian leadership indicated that thousands of suicide bombers would be sent out to targets across the world. The men and women of the Israeli military are currently fighting on the front lines against this apocalyptic program -- should we not at least consider offering our solidarity?

Second, Israel wants peace.

So far, Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert's government has succeeded in coupling its military operation with transparent political goals. Every step can be justified. On the one hand, Israel recognizes Lebanon as a sovereign state, thus making it responsible for the Hezbollah attack on July 12 in which the group abducted two Israeli soldiers.

On the other hand, Israel's war aims have been clearly stated. In a speech to the country's parliament, the Knesset, on July 17, Olmert said Israel is practicing "basic self defense." "We have the right to our freedom," he said. "When we have to, we know how to fight for and defend that freedom." The fighting serves to achieve the following aims: a. The implementation of United Nations resolution 1559, which calls for the disarmament of Hezbollah; b. The implementation of UN resolution 5241, which calls for south Lebanon to be solely under the control of the Lebanese army, and c. The unconditional return of the kidnapped Israeli soldiers.

[Norman]

These are the goals being pursued by the Israeli military operation. The infrastructure in Lebanon is being attacked, but only insofar as it is relevant to the arming and operations of Hezbollah. The Lebanese civilian population has been warned with leaflets and radio messages prior to attacks in residential areas.

Hezbollah, on the other hand, is marching to a different drummer. Their motto is: "You love life, we love death." There is nothing, gushes Hezbollah's patron Ahmadinejad, "more beautiful, holier or more eternal than the death of a martyr." Thus, Hezbollah is not only happy to kill as many Jews as possible, it is not bothered by the deaths of Shiite Muslims as well and has thus strategically based many of their rockets directly in the middle of Shiite residential districts.

While Hezbollah, with their inaccurate missiles, tries to kill as many Israeli civilians as possible, Israel -- even if not always successful -- tries to limit the number of Lebanese civilian casualties.

Third, there is no alternative to Israel's current military operation.

Will Hezbollah ever willingly give up their weapons? Not a chance!


The Jihad against Israel is the foundation of the militant group's very existence. For Hezbollah members, the destruction of Israel is not only non-negotiable, it is a religious duty. Hezbollah only understands the language of violence and Israel's military is the only force that is in a position to effectively confront Hezbollah. A United Nations force would never be able to achieve what Israel could. In 1983, two suicide attacks carried out by Hezbollah were enough to force the US and France from the region. A UN force, which wouldn't be nearly as strong, would have no chance. Only if Israel were able to weaken the terrorist group in the long term would the stationing of a UN force even become an option.

Never before have the conditions been better for Israel to complete the mission of weakening Hezbollah. The longer the Israeli military can focus on the job at hand, the better the chances are that Lebanon can be freed from the influence of Hezbollah and that the conditions for a lasting peace in the region can be created.

With this in mind, the demand for an immediate cease-fire is the equivalent of a plea for saving Hezbollah. The group's leader Sheik Hassan Nasrallah would be able to come out of his hiding place and tell his fighters that, while they may have suffered some casualties, they successfully defended Hezbollah's existence and dignity. He would also be able to rely on Iran to finance the rebuilding of the destroyed Shiite areas and make the claim that Hezbollah was the most important representative of Arab interests. In the case of an immediate cease-fire, a continuation and intensification of the war would be guaranteed.

Fourth, Israel's military operation has already resulted in positive effects.

One can already see some positive results from the Israeli operation -- the strength of which clearly took Hezbollah and its supporters by surprise. Whereas the process of "critical dialogue" -- supported especially by Germany -- with the Mullah dictatorship in Iran and with anti-Semitic terror groups tended to strengthen those groups, the Israeli offensive seems to have started a paradigm shift in the Middle East: For the first time in the history of the Middle East conflict, an overwhelming majority of the Arab League distanced itself from Hezbollah's "dangerous adventurism." Never before have Hezbollah and Iran -- and indirectly Hamas -- been disavowed so directly.

The reaction from the "Arab Street" has likewise thus far indicated that Israel has chosen the right time and the correct method. Whereas some 2 million people between Rabat and Bahrain took to the streets in the spring of 2002 to demonstrate solidarity with Hamas during the peak of the Second Intifada, things have been relatively quiet this time around -- and this despite the largest Israeli military operation in 24 years. "Rarely have I seen such an uprising, indeed an Intifada, against those little turbaned, bearded men across the Muslim landscape as the one that took place last week," wrote Youssef Ibrahim in the New York Post. "The leader of Hezbollah, Sheik Hassan Nasrallah, received a resounding 'no' to pulling 350 million Arabs into a war with Israel on his clerical coattails."

Lebanese Prime Minister Fouad Siniora has likewise seen fit to distance himself from Hezbollah and the terrorism the group represents -- clearly the result of the weakening of an organization that has until now been able to keep the Lebanese government in line.

Last but not least, Hezbollah's patron Iran has only produced a feeble response. Whereas Ahmadinejad on July 12 pronounced the eve of Israel's destruction, the country's counterattack left him speechless for a full 48 hours. When he found his tongue again, he said merely that an Israeli attack against Syria would result in a fierce Iranian response. He said nothing about the ongoing attack against his close allies in Lebanon. Promptly, the bellicose language coming out of Tehran and Damascus was exposed as empty rhetoric: Neither of these two countries has sought to actively defend Hezbollah. Israel's offensive has thus managed to deflate Ahmadinejad's regional image.

Of course the political successes that can be seen today do not eliminate the possibility of nasty surprises tomorrow. Islamists are desperately denouncing the Arabian League's "treachery" and trying to mobilize radicals in Jordan, Egypt and Saudi Arabia. Whether they will be successful remains an open question. The Iranian leadership has likewise sought to strengthen the resolve of Hezbollah: "Well done Nasrallah," said Gholam-Ali Haddad Adel, speaker of the Iranian parliament, on July 18. "Today we are seeing the liberation of Palestine. The war has just begun." It's difficult to predict Iran's reaction: Will they accept the defeat of their Islamist allies or will they escalate the conflict by sending suicide bombers to Lebanon and Europe?

Either way, Israel could do no better than it has to this point -- part of the reason that the US House of Representatives recently declared its unconditional solidarity with Israel by a vote of 410 to eight.


It is terrible to look on while southern Beirut is turned into piles of rubble and to know that civilians on both sides -- as well as Israeli soldiers -- are being injured and killed. Even worse, though, is the realization that Iran could very well emerge as the victor in this war and use the current conflict to justify future attacks.

The pacifist reaction that the Israeli defensive war has triggered in Germany and Europe is not well thought out and is disingenuous. It is also counter-productive. An immediate cease-fire would merely result in a worse conflict in the future. The consequences drawn from Adolf Hitler's World War II -- "Never again fascism! Never again war!" -- were intended to prevent an anti-Semitic war from ever again taking place. Today, that lesson has been forgotten. "Never again war against fascism" is all that remains.

Israel must not be forced to abandon its war against Hezbollah, rather it must win the conflict. Just as Hezbollah is fighting the war as Iran's proxy, Israel is fighting genocidal Islamism as the proxy for the rest of the Western world.The least Israel should be able to expect from the West is that it not be betrayed.

[aberry33]

About time. This forum was going down the tube with nothing but cut and paste biased articles as the start to every single thread.

[deeyala]

About time. This forum was going down the tube with nothing but cut and paste biased articles as the start to every single thread.

now we will collect them all here and leave room for other topics on the main forum

[deeyala]

with the evrlasting and ongoing conflict(s) in the middle east, this should be a sticky

[deeyala]

Civil rights group challenges Halutz


In letter to Defense Minister Amir Peretz, Association for Civil Rights in Israel condemns as illegal IDF chief’s comment that ‘for every Katyusha barrage on Haifa, 10 Dahiya buildings will be bombed’
Aviram Zino

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7...280788,00.html

The Association for Civil Rights in Israel appealed to Defense Minister Amir Peretz after IDF Chief of Staff Lt.-Gen. Dan Halutz apparently said that “for every Katyusha barrage on Haifa, 10 more buildings in the Dahiya neighborhood of south Beirut will be bombed.”

he association complained that Peretz must clarify to Halutz that it is completely unacceptable to motivate military activity on revenge.

“The grave and illegal targeting of Israeli citizens does not justify such illegal orders, which means the indiscriminate targeting of civilians and civilian interests,” the association said.


They further noted that the army chief’s most recent comments should not be considered apart from the context of statements he made
while serving as deputy chief of staff during the targeted assassination of Sheikh Salah Shahada which killed an additional 16 Palestinians, mostly civilians.
t the time, Halutz said, “If you want to know what I feel when I release a bomb – I feel a slight knock on the wing of the plane when the bomb is released. After a second it passes, and that’s all.” The comments even reached the High Court of Justice at the time.

Black flag of clear illegality'

In a letter to the defense minister, members of the association wrote, “Striking civilians and civilian infrastructure and using intentional means of intimidation and terrorizing civilian populations is forbidden by international humanitarian law, and could be war crimes.”
The group said: “There appears to be a black flag of clear illegality waving over the chief of staff’s remarks.”
The civil rights organization noted, “The gravity of the situation following these orders should not be belittled, which are apparently directing Israel’s army operations.”
They demanded Peretz direct Halutz, among of things, to minimize strikes on Lebanese civilians, civilian homes, property and essential infrastructure. Copies of the appeal were also sent to Attorney General Menahem Mazuz.

[TranceNRG]

Firepower versus brainpower

By Yoel Marcus

Two weeks after Israel set out to defeat Hezbollah, its military achievements are pretty limited. A country that stood up to seven Arab nations in the War of Independence, a war of the "few against the many," with an army that pulverized the invading forces of three Arab nations in the span of six days, is now facing an embarrassing role reversal: a war of the "many against the few" in which Israel is on the floorboards.

Who would have believed that a guerrilla organization with a few hundred regular fighters, something like a brigade and a half, could paralyze half a country, firing off hundreds of missiles every day? A total of 2,200 by Sunday morning, says the defense minister. Who would have believed that cities like Safed, Acre, Nahariya, Tiberias and especially Haifa, the capital of the North, would wake up every morning to the sound of sirens and deadly rocket fire that would turn tens of thousands of people into refugees and shut down life in a large part of the country? And that's even before Hezbollah has tried to use its long-range missiles on Tel Aviv.

Who would have believed that the Israel Defense Forces, the army that is prepared for large-scale wars, that Iran fears will attack its nuclear facilities, that can drop 23 tons of bombs in a single night, is incapable of stopping Hezbollah's missile fire? How is that as soon as the IDF announces Hezbollah's TV station has been bombed, Hassan Nasrallah pops up in blooming health to continue his taunts against us?


Israel went to war with the goal of wiping out Hezbollah, a hostile militia operating on its border, in response to provocation and the kidnapping of soldiers made possible by the sluggishness and routine that has become widespread in the IDF in recent months. It did so with international backing, with President Bush leading the pack, and the support of most Israeli citizens.

Bush and the public assumed that the army knew what it was doing, and that Israel, with its superiority in manpower, weaponry and technology, would be able to put an end to Hezbollah as a menace to Israel. Little by little, however, a worrying picture has begun to emerge: Instead of an army that is small but smart, we are catching glimpses of an army that is big, rich and dumb.

Take the bizarre appearances of IDF top brass on television: The commander of the Home Front, who stands there handing out high marks to the Israeli public, seemingly unaware that the moment people sense the army is not functioning, they will take to their heels - not only leaving their homes but fleeing the country, following tens of thousands of tourists who have already hightailed it out of here. The chief of staff, who had to say that "we're going to turn Lebanon back into what it was 20 years ago," and now threatens to blow up a 10-floor building for every missile. The district commander who declares: "We don't do body counts in the middle of a war," an improved version of the comment of Benny Gantz, who was a brigadier general in 2001: "When you chop down trees, splinters fly," totally forgetting that the splinters are human beings.

We have a chief of staff who looks like he gets up every morning and agonizes over what to wear - his blue uniform or his khakis. A chief of staff who delivers state-of-the-union addresses that should be the job of the prime minister, and spends whole days touring with Channel 2 correspondent Ronny Daniel. In his observations to the media, Brigadier General (res.) Rafi Noy is right when he says that Hezbollah, with its hidden arsenals, continues to enjoy the upper hand, while the mighty IDF still has far to go to knock it out of commission.

Unlike some of my colleagues, I believe that Israel is fighting a no-choice war that we must do everything possible to win. Air strikes, ground operations - whatever it takes so that Hezbollah, exhausted and beaten, pulls back and a multinational force is deployed along the international border together with the Lebanese Army, in keeping with Security Council Resolution 1559.

If Hezbollah does not cooperate with a UN-mediated agreement stipulating that it give up its heavy weapons, and refuses to stay north of the Litani River, the IDF will have no choice but to keep up the attacks and pound away at Hezbollah, crushing it outpost by outpost. The rules of the game dictated by Hezbollah are going to have to change. A status quo ante is out of the question.

The conflict with Hezbollah cannot be allowed to deteriorate into a war of attrition. It must not be expanded beyond its stated goals. And the Israeli public must not be overly put to the test, lest the "wonderful home front" blow up in the government's face.

The trouble is that we don't have all the time in the world. Condeleezza Rice is on her way. She will shuttle back and forth, back and forth, until the moment comes for a cease-fire agreement. We can only hope that the army reverts to its old self and has the wisdom and good sense to know what to do and when to do it, to produce the desired outcome.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/742261.html

[TranceNRG]

Paths to Escape Perilous for Lebanese

Video

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...072500432.html

[MantisShrimp]

with the evrlasting and ongoing conflict(s) in the middle east, this should be a sticky

I agree, also 5 star
FWIW unbiased news is extremely hard to come by
If someone doesn't have a bias, why are they even paying attention to the ME in the first place

[BlueBayou]

"The Official Middle East Conflict Thread" ; ROFL!

No, this is not "The Official Middle East Conflict Thread"

Any thread worthy of that title would not have started with the biased OP that this one did. But the Islmaofascists have always relied heavily on propaganda much moreso than any other group in today's world. It doesnt surprise me at all...

[mlc82]

"The Official Middle East Conflict Thread" ; ROFL!

No, this is not "The Official Middle East Conflict Thread"

Any thread worthy of that title would not have started with the biased OP that this one did. But the Islmaofascists have always relied heavily on propaganda much moreso than any other group in today's world. It doesnt surprise me at all...

BB, what changed your stance from "disillusioned" to "neutral" back to "pro"?

[TranceNRG]

"The Official Middle East Conflict Thread" ; ROFL!

No, this is not "The Official Middle East Conflict Thread"

Any thread worthy of that title would not have started with the biased OP that this one did. But the Islmaofascists have always relied heavily on propaganda much moreso than any other group in today's world. It doesnt surprise me at all...

The article was taken from an Israeli newspaper written by an Israeli professor in Tel Aviv university.

[MantisShrimp]

"The Official Middle East Conflict Thread" ; ROFL!

No, this is not "The Official Middle East Conflict Thread"

Any thread worthy of that title would not have started with the biased OP that this one did. But the Islmaofascists have always relied heavily on propaganda much moreso than any other group in today's world. It doesnt surprise me at all...

fwiw I hold pretty much opposite views from Trance and I asked him to create the thread to cut down on the ridiculous amount of "article threads"

[user437490845hjgd]

Here is another collection of images from the conflict.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1672171/posts

Conservative pro-Israel comments are peppered throughout, and no claim of being bias-free is made.

[MantisShrimp]

Here is another collection of images from the conflict.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1672171/posts

Conservative pro-Israel comments are peppered throughout, and no claim of being bias-free is made.

Nice pics. As usual with Free Republic, the captions are over the top stupid. But it's nice to see some footage emerging from Haifa. I have friends in Haifa and they say **** is kinda bad there, and yet all the news seems to be covering is Lebanon, and I wonder why that is, maybe because it's a lot easier for news people to get INTO Lebanon than Israel during times of high security, or there could be some conspiracy but I doubt that.

Hey do you ever actually type with your fists? I wanna see what it looks like.

[xer0xed]

Here is another collection of images from the conflict.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1672171/posts

Conservative pro-Israel comments are peppered throughout, and no claim of being bias-free is made.

What's up with the Hezbollah and UN flags coming out of that structure...?

[TranceNRG]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Sto...827077,00.html

Israel's strategy which goes hand in hand with American plans in Iraq

An adviser to Israeli Defence Minister Amir Peretz told The Observer: 'We are finally going to fight Hizbollah on the ground. The Israeli people are ready for this, and the Sunni Muslim world also expects us to fight Shia fundamentalism. We are going to deliver.'


Now they want to divide muslims?!
Oh wait...
"sectarian war" increases in Iraq
wow... yet another coincidence.


I think this statement will work against them.
Sooner or later muslims will unite to fight against the common enemy.

[MantisShrimp]

lol 1 star
this thread is on a ROLL!

[BigTruckGuy3500]

You know what? I'm just pissed off at this whole thing. Everything. From the civilian casualties on both sides to the onesidedness of the media coverage. Seriously, Israel can use cluster bombs and possibly phosphorous bombs, but when Hezzbolah uses ball bearings in its rockets its the only thing that gets on the news. And then they only say "___some #___ people have been killed in lebanon" but when it comes to saying Israeli casualties they say "__ some #___ Israeli civlilians". And most people are too stupid to understand these things. And why is it ok for the U.S. to give Israel billions of dollars in state of the art weapons, but not ok for Iran or Syria to give Hezzbolah some rockets (which it hasn't even been proven that they are giving). I mean they are both being used to achieve similar results, except you can multiply Hezzbolah's results a couple times to get what Israel has achieved - More civilian and military casualties.

All I can say is - you bastards.

edit: ok, i enjoyed that little rant. time for bed.

[no_strain_no_ga]

My question is, why the support of Hezbollah? Many are looking at the current situation and not looking at the past. Hezbollah have launch many terrorist attacks on Israel taking the lives of hundreds. But many do not use common sense and look at what is happening right now. Don't get me wrong, I don't like that Israel is killing innocent lives in Lebanon, but I will never support murderers with blood covered hands. Hezbollah is the blame for this whole mess. If you back Hezbollah for the killings of innocent Israel civilians, then you are as bad as they are.

[deeyala]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Sto...827077,00.html

Israel's strategy which goes hand in hand with American plans in Iraq

An adviser to Israeli Defence Minister Amir Peretz told The Observer: 'We are finally going to fight Hizbollah on the ground. The Israeli people are ready for this, and the Sunni Muslim world also expects us to fight Shia fundamentalism. We are going to deliver.'


Now they want to divide muslims?!
Oh wait...
"sectarian war" increases in Iraq
wow... yet another coincidence.


I think this statement will work against them.
Sooner or later muslims will unite to fight against the common enemy.

mmm.. i wonder which sunni muslims told them to do so?....!


good laugh

Israel's achievments in this war

1)generate Hezbollah support from people who never gave the Hezb credibility
2)undermine the whole "strenghth' of the Lebanese governement
3)create thousands of children- who will grow up to be tomorrow's men- who hate everything Israel stands for
in every child whose family got killed and was told ,'Israel did it, because Hezbollah kidnapped their soldiers", in every child whose reminder of this war would be a scar here or a scar there- let alone a lost eye or limb, in every woman who lost one of her children- they created an immense amount of hate that no "peace process" will ever heal...

all Israel has achieved so far ,is the exact opposite of what they aimed at ,when they started this war..
and i seriously can't understand how they can't see that..

[TranceNRG]

You know what? I'm just pissed off at this whole thing. Everything. From the civilian casualties on both sides to the onesidedness of the media coverage. Seriously, Israel can use cluster bombs and possibly phosphorous bombs, but when Hezzbolah uses ball bearings in its rockets its the only thing that gets on the news. And then they only say "___some #___ people have been killed in lebanon" but when it comes to saying Israeli casualties they say "__ some #___ Israeli civlilians". And most people are too stupid to understand these things. And why is it ok for the U.S. to give Israel billions of dollars in state of the art weapons, but not ok for Iran or Syria to give Hezzbolah some rockets (which it hasn't even been proven that they are giving). I mean they are both being used to achieve similar results, except you can multiply Hezzbolah's results a couple times to get what Israel has achieved - More civilian and military casualties.

All I can say is - you bastards.

edit: ok, i enjoyed that little rant. time for bed.

Bro... this isn't something new
Us has always favoured the zionist entity and its terrorisms over muslims.
have faith in God and remember It is the Hezb Allah that will be successful (58:22)

[TranceNRG]

and i seriously can't understand how they can't see that..

God has sealed their hearts and made them blind, deaf and dumb
That's why they can't see it.

I'm not sure which verse says it, but I know it's in there

[bulletproofsoul]

"The Official Middle East Conflict Thread" ; ROFL!

No, this is not "The Official Middle East Conflict Thread"

Any thread worthy of that title would not have started with the biased OP that this one did. But the Islmaofascists have always relied heavily on propaganda much moreso than any other group in today's world. It doesnt surprise me at all...

The opinion piece you referred to which is certainly an editorial, was from one of 2 well-respected ISRAELI newspapers.

It is a piece that calls for self-examination, just like any editorial in a US or Western publication. In fact, the editorial looks at how Israel itself might use propaganda for its own ends.

I did not take the editorial as the propaganda of Islamofascists nor do I think its intent was to promote that. The impression I got was that the author feels that as an Israeli, he is abhorred by the hypocrisy and double standards of Israel defense policies he perceives and he questions whether Israel has become essentially the same as the enemy it fights.

It doesn't surprise me at all that some will casually disregard the serious moral and philosophical dilemmas, perhaps due to their own "Israel can do no wrong" bias, that even an Israeli is willing to examine about his own government's policies. The editorial puts its finger precisely at the core of what methods can a moral country use to fight terror and it highlights the very things that generate controversy surrounding Israeli policies.

For you it isn't the official thread because it didn't start with rah! rah!...go Israel!

Speaking of propaganda........

[TranceNRG]

Peres to Lebanese: It's us or Hezbollah
By Gideon Alon

Vice Premier Shimon Peres yesterday called on the citizens of Lebanon to get Hezbollah to disarm. He was speaking in the Knesset plenum at a special debate during the summer recess, called to discuss the campaign in the north.

"We are distressed to see how time and again your green country turns into burned black patches and heaps of ruins," Peres said to the Lebanese. "We know well that war sows destruction in your beautiful country and our hearts break but we have no choice: It's us or Hezbollah. You also have no choice: It's you or Hezbollah. From our point of view, this is a war for life and for peace."

He called on the Lebanese citizens to disarm the terror organization that is making their lives miserable, just as they managed to get the Syrians to leave Lebanese soil.


Peres also called on Lebanese Prime Minister Fuad Siniora to initiate a meeting with Prime Minister Ehud Olmert to bring peace to both nations.

"Israel will not pay the price of abductions and will not allow a strategy of kidnapping," he added.

"Hezbollah has already suffered a moral loss and will also suffer a military loss. Even if it is difficult, the Israel Defense Forces will prevent Hezbollah from redeploying along the border," Peres said. "It is clear to everyone that Hezbollah does not ... bring any benefit to Lebanon."

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/742747.html






Will Lebanese buy such lies?
Is Israel desperate?

[TranceNRG]

The turnabout will come quickly
By Meron Benvenisti

No one can predict when the reversal will come, when all the experts will begin competing for first place in revealing the failures of the war: mistaken strategy, political dilettantism and shooting from the hip; the weakness disguised as courageous determination; the illusions, arrogance and boasting; the addiction to an impulse of revenge; the cruelty and the lack of moral inhibitions.

But the manipulators and the self-declared heroes should not delude themselves, nor should the naive, or those who are drunk with patriotism or those who consider themselves experts: the moment will arrive more quickly than they imagine and within a short while everyone will be hiding behind the pose of "we told you so" when they know which way the wind is blowing.

That is when all the declarations, the assessments and the excuses - that could be uttered and written only in an atmosphere of lack of critical skepticism that prevails when a "state of war" is declared - will be revealed.


It is only in an atmosphere of this kind that serious people can justify the destruction of a country on the grounds that they "are helping its government in this way" to gain the upper hand over Hezbollah - a kind of variation on the theme of "the raped woman actually enjoyed herself." It is only in an atmosphere of this kind that a well-bred person can be glad that the lack of American pressure to stop the bombings makes it possible to continue the killing and destruction.

Only reliance on patriotic emotions, which cloud any rational thinking, makes it possible to state without shame - after many days of multi-casualty pounding and the inexplicable destruction of an airport, highway interchanges, power stations and entire neighborhoods - that actually this activity was in vain, since it was known in advance that the bombs could not achieve their objectives and that a massive ground invasion was unavoidable.

Only people who unabashedly exploit primitive urges allow themselves to personalize the war and focus it on the annihilation of their enemy, Hassan Nasrallah. Only those who are convinced the war will bring down a smoke screen over any cynical or hypocritical act can brag that they are assisting in an international humanitarian activity after they themselves brought about the catastrophe.

No one is able to predict the minute when the opposition to the war and the bloodshed turns from an act of betrayal into a legitimate and even correct stance; when a moral condemnation of the war's evil effects becomes acceptable from a patriotic point of view and when slogans like "uprooting terror," "a war for our homes," "an existential struggle" and their like, turn from resonant war-cries into empty rhetoric.

No one can predict this, but experience teaches us that the turnabout from patriotic criticism to rational behavior based on moral norms occurs sooner or later, sometimes within weeks or months and sometimes after a generation. It seems that in the current outbreak of violence, the change will come very quickly; its conduct, objectives and results do not encourage too much enthusiasm and it has not even been granted the title of "war" since those who waged it are not sure if they want to commemorate it among the state's official wars or if they believe it would perhaps be better to forget it.

They cannot allow themselves to think that all should know their assessments were incorrect, and therefore they will seek a "victory" that will justify all the loss of life and destruction, and the very need for such a victory will merely prolong the suffering and bereavement. The public that supports them will have difficulty demanding soul-searching of them since the tribal solidarity will protect the political and military leaders.

Very soon everything will return to what it was before - apart from those who sacrificed their lives and those who were killed in the shellings and bombings. And the major loser will be the people of Israel who, by an unmeasured reaction to a provocation, established their position as a foreign element in the region, as the neighborhood bully, the object of impotent hatred.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/742762.html