Non-methylated Prohormones

[gaberox]

As is playing the horses at the track, scratch off tickets or any state lottery.
(I'll leave the stock market out of it).

Now that its put into perspective - still gonna spend the bank on the
"liver protectors"?

That's what I thought.

BK

NAC and R-ALA are part of my routine regardless.So no,not gonna spend
"the bank" on liver protectors.

[nukLhed]

NAC and R-ALA are part of my routine regardless.So no,not gonna spend
"the bank" on liver protectors.

Me too. I don't think it's a good idea to recomend removing anti-oxidants from the support supplement stack. And i mean for those who don't normally take them anyway. Free radicals have been linked to a number of deseases and nobody knows what the long term effect of elevated free radicals can do... What if it took a year off your life expectancy? Would it then be worth the $$?

Read this:
http://www.bsherman.org/freeradicals.htm

[rhed]

I did a SD cycle month and a half ago. Took all of the supporting supps including AX perfect cycle. Just got blood work done. Everything was ok except my liver was elevated.
Anyway about the methylated stuffs. So anything that is methylated is harsh on the liver? I got some Animal Pump. And I have not started it because I notice that on one of the ingredient it's "Methylxanthine". What do you guys think..

[gaberox]

I did a SD cycle month and a half ago. Took all of the supporting supps including AX perfect cycle. Just got blood work done. Everything was ok except my liver was elevated.
Anyway about the methylated stuffs. So anything that is methylated is harsh on the liver? I got some Animal Pump. And I have not started it because I notice that on one of the ingredient it's "Methylxanthine". What do you guys think..

I believe methylxanthine is caffeine which has two methyl groups I think.So no just beacuse somthing is methylated does not mean its toxic.

[daveburton]

BK is right on here...the affects of androgens on the liver is blown way out of proportion. In fact, there is a study...(i will go get it if you guys insist) that tested steroid using and non-steroid using bodybuilders liver values...guess what? ALL of them had elevated liver enzymes...juicers and non-juicers alike.
interesting, huh? now, there are some inherent problems with said study...we don't know what drugs these guys were using...but, given the popularity of orals, it is safe to assume that at least 2 or 3 out of 20 were using a c-17aa oral.

Maybe so, but SD is some liver toxic ****. HDL dropped to 11, LDL increased to 177 and T4 dropped 10% below average I venture out to say that a cycle of T with D makes a lot more sense in the scheme of things

[Kohen_Gadol]

Maybe so, but SD is some liver toxic ****. HDL dropped to 11, LDL increased to 177 and T4 dropped 10% below average I venture out to say that a cycle of T with D makes a lot more sense in the scheme of things

Not looking for a fight - just presenting another view.

Keep in mind I have always despised Superdrol yet I will defend it here.

A cycle of T and D means you need clean needles/syringes, know how
to use them properly and is possibly going to get you into serious
legal hot water if you get caught. And if you are dumb enough to
"share" your bottles with others - or resuse needles - then a cornucopia
of viral infectious diseases which are probably a lot worse then skewed
lipid/LFT's could result.

Pragmatically, SD is the better choice because it is not "illegal yet",
you can 'share' it with someone and not get HCV/HIV/whatever, and
you're not going to have to worry about the law banging down your
door over it.

Plus, it is easy to find (or was) in many health food stores. To use T or D
you really need to know someone and you could also end up with
bogus stuff.

It's all relative and more than one variable is involved, Dave.

I agree with you though...if I was ever going to consider using something,
and I never will, I would opt for straight TE or TC with something
of a gonadrotrophic and AI/SERM effect.

But not everyone can deal with using (or get) syringes/needles, is knowledgable in using
them or is even inclined to find out about them.

Use the "80/20" rule and you'll see why SD is/was so appealling to so many
people despite potential lipid/LFT issues.

Cool?


BK

[-Optional-]

None. Gauntlet tossed down *slaps face left and right with leather
glove* now I challenge you to find me one, even ONE study that shows
these supps to anything to help 'steroid induced' liver issues.


BK

If there are no studies that show these supplements do anything to help 'steriod induced' liver issues then prove that they do nothing at all. Seriously though, don't just come here and claim to know all about it, give us facts showing these support supplements do nothing and I will heed your argument.

-O-

[dan7681]

You're wrong. Glad to help.

It's the alpha-alkylation (e.g. "methyl") at C-17a (or maybe C-7a/b or
perhaps at C-2 also) that is widely viewed as causing liver issues
(and this is usually minor, transient and not a 100% effect).

Non-"methylated" products are not generally liver toxic.

And I know people mean well but the "liver protection supplements'
thing is a scam and a huge racket to make people money.

And that's about all I have to say on that!


BK

If you don't mind I'd like to hear your take on supplementation/PCT after the discontinuation of these orals.

Thanks

[Kohen_Gadol]

If there are no studies that show these supplements do anything to help 'steriod induced' liver issues then prove that they do nothing at all. Seriously though, don't just come here and claim to know all about it, give us facts showing these support supplements do nothing and I will heed your argument.

-O-

I don't have to. I am not making a claim for it. When you make a claim
you usually need to back it up with something. If something is not
available to substantiate your claim, it is usually considered "false".

Allow me to give you an example - I think you killed JFK. Now "prove"
that you didn't. See how stupid that is? You can't make asinine claims
based on nothing and expect people to believe them.

BK

[Kohen_Gadol]

If you don't mind I'd like to hear your take on supplementation/PCT after the discontinuation of these orals.

Thanks

1) Something to modulate estrogen - be it an AI or SERM.

2) A lot of water and a lot of protein.

3) Vitamin C (cheap insurance as an anti-ox).

4) A good multi-vitamin

5) Some zinc and arginine (if fertility is a concern).

That's about it.

BK

[quigs]

Allow me to give you an example - I think you killed JFK. Now "prove"
that you didn't. See how stupid that is? You can't make asinine claims
based on nothing and expect people to believe them.

BK

Judging by his sig, he wasn't even born yet. But yeah, I get your point....its pretty tough to prove a negative.

[-Optional-]

I don't have to. I am not making a claim for it. When you make a claim
you usually need to back it up with something. If something is not
available to substantiate your claim, it is usually considered "false".

Allow me to give you an example - I think you killed JFK. Now "prove"
that you didn't. See how stupid that is? You can't make asinine claims
based on nothing and expect people to believe them.

BK

The only problem with your example is that I CAN prove I didn't kill JFK. Even if its asinine to request that I prove it..I still can. You on the other hand are saying because there is no proof Liver support supplements help while ON then they must do nothing. Now thats asinine..

Because nothing has been reported we can neither say it does or doesn't help but only choose to take it or not. Its the old saying "Better to be safe than sorry." To each his own...

Good day.

[nukLhed]

The only problem with your example is that I CAN prove I didn't kill JFK. Even if its asinine to request that I prove it..I still can. You on the other hand are saying because there is no proof Liver support supplements help while ON then they must do nothing. Now thats asinine..

Because nothing has been reported we can neither say it does or doesn't help but only choose to take it or not. Its the old saying "Better to be safe than sorry." To each his own...

Good day.

It's actually a good example... Him saying you killed JFK, is just like him saying support supps are bunk. The "accepted" theory in the JFK assassination is that it was a single shooter (Lee Harvey Oswald) from the sixth floor of the Texas Schoolbook Depository Building. If he wants to change that theory, or re-write history, then HE needs to prove that his new theory is true.

The person making the accusation, or introducing a new theroy needs to prove his theory when another theory has been accepted as truth. The accepted theory (proven or not) is that support supps work... or atleast help in the recovery process.

I am running a cycle now with support supps. I am getting bloodwork every two weeks. Maybe BK would like to run a PP->SD 6 week cycle with no support supps. Then we can have some research.

[xGhostinGx]

LOL. Im going to link to BKs post everytime someone mentions liver toxicity. LOL.

[xGhostinGx]

Do not take this as a slam - look at it as being educational.

Just because oral steroids "allegedly" cause transaminase levels to rise
a bit DOES NOT MEAN that the supplements you buy and use are going
to reverse this (even if a bunch of good bros here who mean well are
repeating unsubstantiated 'advice' they heard here or read over 'there'.

Yes...C-17aa's and some other orals are linked with a transient and
USUALLY AUTO-REVERSIBLE rise in LFT's, especially ALT/AST levels.

But these tend to revert back to normal levels when the offending
compound is stopped - irrespective of "liver support supplements".

There is no proof...even of the really "stretched and embellished" proof
that these liver "protectors" will protect against a rise in LFT's related
to methyl anabolic oral use.

None. Gauntlet tossed down *slaps face left and right with leather
glove* now I challenge you to find me one, even ONE study that shows
these supps to anything to help 'steroid induced' liver issues.

I think you understand where I am going with this.

If it were me...I'd take a good multi, some Vit. C and drink a lot of
water (bottled, preferable Evian).


BK

LMAO. A bombshell was dropped here. Lets see if any "liver protectant" sellers respond, or anyone who recommends them, or if they remain in the guides. Interesting.

[Kohen_Gadol]

It's actually a good example... Him saying you killed JFK, is just like him saying support supps are bunk. The "accepted" theory in the JFK assassination is that it was a single shooter (Lee Harvey Oswald) from the sixth floor of the Texas Schoolbook Depository Building. If he wants to change that theory, or re-write history, then HE needs to prove that his new theory is true.

The person making the accusation, or introducing a new theroy needs to prove his theory when another theory has been accepted as truth. The accepted theory (proven or not) is that support supps work... or atleast help in the recovery process.

I am running a cycle now with support supps. I am getting bloodwork every two weeks. Maybe BK would like to run a PP->SD 6 week cycle with no support supps. Then we can have some research.

Rep points to you - I am glad someone "gets it".

BK

[Kohen_Gadol]

LMAO. A bombshell was dropped here. Lets see if any "liver protectant" sellers respond, or anyone who recommends them, or if they remain in the guides. Interesting.

Another guy who "understands" - rep points to you also.

The guy who wants me to "prove a negative" and refuses to understand
the JFK analogy - let me make it even simpler for you.

AI's are used to treat breast cancer. So why can't we use an AI to treat
all cancers, even pancreatic or lung? The way you think, just because
something is good for cancer, it must be good for all cancers.

Now let's look at liver protectants - they have been correlated to help
liver function in people with viral hepatitis and fatty liver disease.
As a result, these folk's liver functon tests drop when given (sometimes)
Milk Thistle, NAC, etc. Someone using a oral androgenic hormone might
also have elevated liver function values too (no argument there) *BUT*
and this is huge, so pay attention, the mechanism causing the increase
in the liver function tests IS NOT THE SAME as it is in viral hepatitis or
fatty liver disease.

So we know that Milk Thistle and NAC sometimes help people with high
liver enyme levels who have viral hepatitis/fatty liver to lower their
enzyme, but "methyl juice" causing an increase by a different mechanism.
So you do not know if these supps do anything good and in fact, you
don't know if they might actually be harmful in this situation to be honest.

Think about it.

OK?


Peace!


BK

[-Optional-]

Another guy who "understands" - rep points to you also.

The guy who wants me to "prove a negative" and refuses to understand
the JFK analogy - let me make it even simpler for you.

AI's are used to treat breast cancer. So why can't we use an AI to treat
all cancers, even pancreatic or lung? The way you think, just because
something is good for cancer, it must be good for all cancers.

Now let's look at liver protectants - they have been correlated to help
liver function in people with viral hepatitis and fatty liver disease.
As a result, these folk's liver functon tests drop when given (sometimes)
Milk Thistle, NAC, etc. Someone using a oral androgenic hormone might
also have elevated liver function values too (no argument there) *BUT*
and this is huge, so pay attention, the mechanism causing the increase
in the liver function tests IS NOT THE SAME as it is in viral hepatitis or
fatty liver disease.

So we know that Milk Thistle and NAC sometimes help people with high
liver enyme levels who have viral hepatitis/fatty liver to lower their
enzyme, but "methyl juice" causing an increase by a different mechanism.
So you do not know if these supps do anything good and in fact, you
don't know if they might actually be harmful in this situation to be honest.

Think about it.

OK?


Peace!


BK

I don't refuse to "get it." I just didn't understand your point. After reading it over, slower this time my comments make no sense. Sorry for posting in haste..I take for granted I understand most of the information I'm reading next time I'll read closer. Anyway, thanks for not chopping off my head and sticking it on a pike..

-O-

[Kohen_Gadol]

I don't refuse to "get it." I just didn't understand your point. After reading it over, slower this time my comments make no sense. Sorry for posting in haste..I take for granted I understand most of the information I'm reading next time I'll read closer. Anyway, thanks for not chopping off my head and sticking it on a pike..

-O-

Hey, as long as you learned something and saved some money and can pass this new info on - all is good in my book.

Urban legends like this have their place - in B-grade horror movies!


BK

[hrb4life]

I would suggest Rosemary herb or better yet Rose Ox from Herbalife for anti oxidants. Def best supp out there. Rose Ox is a cascading antioxidant which means once its broken down it comes back to do the do one more time thus staying active longer in your system. You cant get it in stores Im afraid but I CAN GET IT...and you can get it from the net as well I think....

Read:

We know that antioxidants are good for us. They help protect our body cells from damage by neutralizing the "free-radical" molecules that bombard us every day. Many fruits and vegetables contain vitamins and minerals known for their antioxidant qualities. Unfortunately, we don't always have time to eat the right amount of these foods, so we take antioxidant supplements.

What we may not know is that rosemary extract, along with other herbs, can help speed up and regenerate the antioxidants we take. Herbalife's Rose Ox・is the first of a new generation of antioxidants with a cascading effect. The cascade effect refers to the unique ability to change into a series of progressively active forms, which can help create a dramatically more potent, longer-lasting result. Rose Ox・has the further capability to help regenerate other antioxidants, including vitamin E, which do not have this advantage.

Rosemary is a very versatile herb cultivated from an evergreen-type shrubbery with pine needle-like leaves. The plant features blue flowers and can grow to heights of three to five feet in warm, humid environments.

In addition to possessing antioxidant properties, scientific studies shows that the scent of rosemary also works as a memory stimulant - perfect for busy adults at the office, or even for kids doing their homework.

Other health-related properties of fragrant rosemary include facilitating digestion, soothing menstrual cramps and calming the nerves. Rosemary can even be used for cosmetic purposes such as an effective hair conditioning and strengthening treatment and as an astringent or skin toner.
Discussion Points
Antioxidant support: Helps promote the antioxidant capabilities of vitamin E.
Cascade effect: Rose Ox・has the unique ability to act in a series of progressively active forms to increase potency and create a longer-lasting antioxidant effect.
Rosemary extract: Rose Ox・is made with rosemary extract and blended with an exclusive combination of herbs to work synergistically with other antioxidants.
Combine with other Herbalife's products: Combine with Herbalife's Schizandra Plus and Extreme C products to further promote good health.
Did You Know?
The rosemary plant originated in the countries surrounding the Mediterranean Sea; now it grows in North America as well. The leaf has always been used for medicinal purposes. Throughout history, it played a role in European herbalism and popular folklore. Rosemary sprigs were considered a love charm, a sign of remembrance and a way to ward off the plague. In ancient China, rosemary was used for headaches. Rosemary twigs are often used to preserve the freshness of olive oil.