training twice a day

[kknecht1]

I was wandering if it was wise to lift twice a day? I have alot free time on my hands this summer and would like to bulk up. Ive read many articles, but still cant find of figure out a workout that would allow for training twice a day. Could someone give me some advice or a training schedule. THANKS--Kevin

[John Prophet]

twice a day rocks.......that is how elite athletes train


best thing to do is take your current program...split it up..then add just a little at first....dont go overboard adding more stuff

the fact that you split it up into 2 sessions will allow you to use more intensity and focus

[Khryz]

Elite lifters might be able to train twice a day but that doesn't necessarily mean you should too.

However, training twice a day could be very beneficial if you know what to do. Doing an intense chest workout in the AM and back in the PM, repeated for several days during the week will burn you out if you aren't conditioned to that much work.

Many powerlifters of WSB will workout in the AM with their normal training routine, then possibly 4-5 hours later they will do some assistance or light recovery work, and then maybe 4-5 hours later they will do some GPP like sled pulling to help build up work capacity.

Do not be fooled into thinking they are all hitting the weights for over 1 hour twice a day with maximum intensity - that is not smart on how to go about multiple day training. I highly suggest you go over to T-Nation and read all of Dave Tate's articles on training for more advice.

[John Prophet]

the main limits humans have are the ones they put on themselves


as long as you recover at some point it doesnt matter if you "overreach" a little bit

the golden rule should be "train hard for 3 weeks, take it really easy the 4th week"


the whole "I must fully recover before I workout again" crap is the most serious flaw in western BB'ing thought IMO


for a 'safe' way to do two a days, do em for a week then see how you feel....take the weekend off, see how you feel Monday....or, decide ahead of time that youll do one week of two a days then a regular week etc....or, do two a days for 3 days out of the week or whatever

[Khryz]

the main limits humans have are the ones they put on themselves

as long as you recover at some point it doesnt matter if you "overreach" a little bit

the golden rule should be "train hard for 3 weeks, take it really easy the 4th week"

the whole "I must fully recover before I workout again" crap is the most serious flaw in western BB'ing thought IMO

for a 'safe' way to do two a days, do em for a week then see how you feel....take the weekend off, see how you feel Monday....or, decide ahead of time that youll do one week of two a days then a regular week etc....or, do two a days for 3 days out of the week or whatever

First off, the way you post paragraphs each sentence is a little distracting - you're starting to look like Waynelucky, just an observation.

Who's "golden rule" is it to train hard for 3 weeks and then take it easy on the forth? Why can't you train hard for 6, or 8 weeks and then once progress stops you take it easy. Planning deloading before you actually need a deload isn't a very efficient way to train. Sustaining linear progress as much as you can before starting a dual factor program will be much more beneficial for beginners and intermediates. Also, from the sound of the thread starter's question about training I wouldn't consider him to be an advanced/elite lifter, no offense.

Over-reaching (over-training) can be as simple as failing to add any reps/weight to an exercise you repeated the follow workout, and can be as complex as over-training syndrome which is a much more severe and affects you mentally, your sleep habits, appetite, immunity, etc.

Just telling someone to "go out and give it your all" might be fine for an athlete training for football camp but not someone who is relying on their own CNS and muscular system to be able to recover enough, and refill all the energy systems they depleted during working out; if the body can't first replenish it's energy stores that it lost before training - say BYE-BYE to any chance of the body putting on muscle. This is why a calorie surplus is needed. You saying "as long as you recover at some point" means that at only that some point they should be progressing. You should aim to recover every week to sustain strength/work capacity increases. Sure it's fine for an 18-year old to go in and slam their biceps with 20 sets if that's what they want to do, and most do that and think they are "recovering" each workout. If recoverying isn't your goal then strength training isn't for you.

Undertraining while sustaining small progress for a long time IMO is much better than lots of progress for only a few weeks. Once again, unless they are advanced, it's not likely they would be able to properly deload or alter their training program enough to take advantage of over-reaching.

This is once again why I stress WSB for advice on multiple training sessions. I don't think people really understand what CNS fatigue, overtraining, and recovering enough from workout to workout really means. It's more than just how you feel.

[kknecht1]

thanks for the help, by the way what in your opinion would be the best split and training frequency?

[Khryz]

thanks for the help, by the way what in your opinion would be the best split and training frequency?

I can't answer that because I don't know anything about you, your bodytype, your weight, your BF%, your training history, your injuries, limitations, etc. If someone spits out a random split for you then they don't care what program is best for you but probably what is best for them or most people (which usually doesn't match). You're going to have to experiment, but I do recommend you start small and work your way up as your capacity for work increases. Starting with a two-a-day split might be too much for your body to take at it's current point. Work up to it, start with a basic, 3-day a week, full-body split (such as Rippetoe or 5x5), or a 4-day a week upper/lower/upper/lower split. If you are still able to increase weight/reps each week on your exercises you know you are recovering enough. Only then would it be smart for you to experiment with more volume as in two-a-days.

My .02

[the iron addict]

If you are an elite lifter, with elite genetics (using steroids helps) go for it. If not it will likely be a mistake.

John Prophet is confusing his results and those of elite lifters with what joe average can handle. He is wrong.

Not sure what John's experience is working with others but as a trainer that works with 70 clients at a time successfully, I can tell you that that type of training is way outside the abilty of most anyone here reading this.

Do you bench at LEAST 315 for reps and squat/deadlift 450+ and do rows with 275? Are you already WAY bigger than most people in the gym? If so, go for it.

If not be careful of people who dole out advice without considering the audience.

Iron Addict

[kknecht1]

im around 155-160 with a bf % of 6% i have been lifting for close to 2 years. and i have been following a 2 on 1 off split for a while. paring-chest/tris, Legs, Back/Biceps, and Shoulders. Lately i have been experimenting with different splits and such. I have gotten alot stronger in every area but my Chest im really stuck struggling each week with the same weight.

[the iron addict]

Last thing you need is working out 2 x a day. Try a simple strength based lifting routine. A 5 x 5 or WSB variant will be good, or a simple mid-volume BB'ing routine focused on the BIG lifts.

Iron Addict

[Chitown hitter]

The only reason to train twice daily is if you're an elite level athlete. At that point you consider it, but before that don't do it.

[Chitown hitter]

im around 155-160 with a bf % of 6% i have been lifting for close to 2 years. and i have been following a 2 on 1 off split for a while. paring-chest/tris, Legs, Back/Biceps, and Shoulders. Lately i have been experimenting with different splits and such. I have gotten alot stronger in every area but my Chest im really stuck struggling each week with the same weight.

That last sentence basically answers your question. If you're struggling and you just started lifting a few years ago it's not a wise decision.

[SwoleKat]

I was wandering if it was wise to lift twice a day? I have alot free time on my hands this summer and would like to bulk up. Ive read many articles, but still cant find of figure out a workout that would allow for training twice a day. Could someone give me some advice or a training schedule. THANKS--Kevin

Well if you are looking for elevated cortisol and a catabolic state then train twice a day. If you want to get swole then take this link home and chew it!!!

http://www.geocities.com/elitemadcow...Linear_5x5.htm

-If you don't believe that three days is enough then check out my photo gallery.....Thanksgiving 05' i weighed 185 now i weigh 235. No AAS either. For food and compund lifts are very anabolic!!!!

[John Prophet]

John Prophet is confusing his results and those of elite lifters with what joe average can handle. He is wrong.


If not be careful of people who dole out advice without considering the audience.

Iron Addict

I guess that is pretty much a direct insult to me...I dont see any other way to take it.


In any case I stand by everything I said.

Someone asked where the "3 weeks hard training, 1 week deload" comes from....as if I just made it up. Actually that is a fairly standard way of setting up a months training as any of the "russian manuals" clearly shows. And thats not just for weightlifters...they use that method as a basis for many types of athletes.

Why can't you train hard for 6, or 8 weeks and then once progress stops you take it easy. Planning deloading before you actually need a deload isn't a very efficient way to train.

Well, a few dozen Russian weightlifting scientists that I have read would disagree with you on that one...they have detailed yearly plans and sometimes multi year plans laid out in advance. Do they make adjustments along the way?...yes, if they need to. To just "go until progress stops" isnt even a plan, lol...it brings in a totally subjective grey area..."gee, am I overtraining or not??". Sort of like driving really fast all the time..and when you wreck you slow down.

I stand by the "3 weeks, then a back off week"....ESPECIALLY for a relative newb because they are the prime offenders as far as having no clue how hard to train or how much to eat etc....giving them a back off week once a month would "cover a lot of sins" IMO.

check this article http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=546953

Im pretty sure its not even remotely for elite athletes.......it also answers the "6-8" weeks thing. The Russians determined that about 6-8 weeks was the MAX you could go IF YOU WERE RECOVERING FULLY BETWEEN WORKOUTS. Now, I ask you, how many of you can guarantee that you fully recover in between every workout for 8 weeks straight???

If you are not fully recovering, (due to using high vol training etc), then 4 weeks was their max time limit, but almost inevitably they set their cycles up on a 4 week schedule with the 4th as a back off week. And they have the gold medals to prove it. That is how they set up training for their athletes EVEN BEFORE they were "elite", lol....thats part of what MADE them elite.



now lets be nontechnical for a minute here.....kids go to school for 6 hours, including gym.....then they go to football practice or wrestling practice or basketball or soccer.

Us old dudes, with our seriously depleted hormone levels work 40 hours a week, and after work we go to the gym several times a week

Football players often do "3 a days".

in the summer, at least back when I was a kid, the kids run and play ALL DAY LONG....we might play 2 baseball games, a couple football games and various other activities plus have ot ride our bike several miles home.

kids on farms do an hour of chores before school...then play football after school


and we are sitting here telling a 19 year old that he cant work out twice a day over the summer???


phhht, whatever

I mean, its plainly obvious that I told the man right up front NOT to add a bunch of stuff to his routine....I see no one bothered to note that


anyway, Kevin...its up to you in the end....its your body, only you can figure out whats right for you.


JP

[Khryz]

I guess that is pretty much a direct insult to me...I dont see any other way to take it.


In any case I stand by everything I said.

Someone asked where the "3 weeks hard training, 1 week deload" comes from....as if I just made it up. Actually that is a fairly standard way of setting up a months training as any of the "russian manuals" clearly shows. And thats not just for weightlifters...they use that method as a basis for many types of athletes.

Yes, I am aware of the dual factor theory stating that at usually 3 weeks of intense exercise the body begins to accumulate stress to the point where progress is going to be stalled until you deload to allow the stress to dissipate.

Well, a few dozen Russian weightlifting scientists that I have read would disagree with you on that one...they have detailed yearly plans and sometimes multi year plans laid out in advance. Do they make adjustments along the way?...yes, if they need to. To just "go until progress stops" isnt even a plan, lol...it brings in a totally subjective grey area..."gee, am I overtraining or not??". Sort of like driving really fast all the time..and when you wreck you slow down.

I stand by the "3 weeks, then a back off week"....ESPECIALLY for a relative newb because they are the prime offenders as far as having no clue how hard to train or how much to eat etc....giving them a back off week once a month would "cover a lot of sins" IMO.

I think you might be misinterpretting their words, although I'm not sure. But disagreeing with allowing a trainee to progress through 6, or 8, or even 10 weeks doesn't seem logical. Why set PR's for 3 weeks straight when you can PR for 10 weeks straight? There's nothing "grey" about setting PR's weekly until progress stops, for if you are setting PR's you aren't overtraining - simple. Sustaining small progress for long periods of time isn't "driving really fast." Infact it's quite the opposite.

There's a reason too why dual factory programs are for advanced trainees and why single factor, or linear progress, programs are for intermediates and under - because intermediates and under do not require dual factor programs for the reasons I just listed above. Setting PR's for 10 weeks > Setting PR's for 3 weeks. Advanced lifters have to program their training with more complexity to illicit gains as consistently as possible, because linear progress is no longer available to them as they become more experienced. Just ask Madcow why his Single Factor 5x5 is for beginners and the Dual Factor is for advanced.

now lets be nontechnical for a minute here.....kids go to school for 6 hours, including gym.....then they go to football practice or wrestling practice or basketball or soccer.

Us old dudes, with our seriously depleted hormone levels work 40 hours a week, and after work we go to the gym several times a week. Football players often do "3 a days". in the summer, at least back when I was a kid, the kids run and play ALL DAY LONG....we might play 2 baseball games, a couple football games and various other activities plus have ot ride our bike several miles home. kids on farms do an hour of chores before school...then play football after school

and we are sitting here telling a 19 year old that he cant work out twice a day over the summer??? phhht, whatever. I mean, its plainly obvious that I told the man right up front NOT to add a bunch of stuff to his routine....I see no one bothered to note that. anyway, Kevin...its up to you in the end....its your body, only you can figure out whats right for you.


JP

Hehe, nice analogies but they're not even close to being relevant to bodybuilding, as I explained in my previous post. Elite weight lifters train for 5-10 years before their work capacities can allow them to handle their "elite-level" workloads.

[John Prophet]

I agree, sure, a beginner can usually go linear and progress quite nicely.....then again, what that has to do with two a day training I have no clue.....because a liner program, even a 5x5 can easily be split into two daily sessions.

Also, how many guys who ask for help on this forum are setting pr's every week???????? thank you


If I said for this guy to do an elite level workout please post up the quote.

I simply said twice daily training is great and he should go for it.....I also warned him NOT to add a ton to his workout.....is that not clear?? I dont know how it could be more clear. If I didnt say for him to do an elite workout then someone is putting words into my mouth, lol.

If the guy is going to do chest, shoulders, triceps....youre saying he cant do chest in the AM, go home, eat, take a nap, eat again, then come back and do shoulders and tris at night???

if thats what you are saying I have to fully disagree.

[John Prophet]

best thing to do is take your current program...split it up..then add just a little at first....dont go overboard adding more stuff

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!


Ill stand by that 24/7 baby

[the iron addict]

John I beleive you truly fail to understand what the average lifters has to overcome and telling joe average trainee that doesn't have a solid strength base 2 x a day is OK is a disservice. Please keep context in mind. Sounds like you read a lot of books and studies (me too) but haven't had a chanch to apply it to a large segment of the lifting populace to see how it works with beginners. I load my lifters for 3-4 weeks and unload them too. But I sure wouldn't ever in a zillion years have the guy split his routine and bump stress hormones and extra time a day just because he was bored and wanted to go to the gym more. And THAT is the driving factor for 90% of the young lifters that want to train 2 x a week.

Elite caliber lifter? Absolutely, Some 160 lb 19 year old. PLEEAAASE.

How many people have you TRULY trained? I work with about 70 at a time and have trained people for 10 years now AND offer money back if not satisfied. Come on over to my board www.ironaddicts.com and peek around if you like

IA

[John Prophet]

lol..ya know...one runs into this on all boards.....its like if someone posts a contrary opinion to the "established experts" that it somehow challenges the pecking order or something, lol


where in the freak did I say anything about this guy being an elite athlete??????

I didnt..so I dont understand the several references to that.....I simply said that is how elite lifters lift.


and you must be absolutely correct IA...I DONT understand how 2x training could possibly do anything to hurt a healthy 19 year old.

anyway, Kevin, ill leave you in the obviously superior hands of IA, and Khryz...they are the experts......Id hate to be one to upset the apple cart by offering a different opinion.

[John Prophet]

matter of fact IA..lets just say what needs to be said....if you think I am unqualified to give advice why not say so up front.....if you think my input is worthless.....maybe then I will find somewhere else to post. Because it aint gonna be much fun posting stuff if I have you second guessing everything I say....know what I mean??


then you will have two forums...correct? lol

[the iron addict]

Please go back and read your first response and then report back on the context (no editing please)

IA

[John Prophet]

twice a day rocks.......that is how elite athletes train


best thing to do is take your current program...split it up..then add just a little at first....dont go overboard adding more stuff

the fact that you split it up into 2 sessions will allow you to use more intensity and focus

this???

you find fault in this??

where???

because I used the word "elite"????????????


good lord, I told him right up front to keep things in check


you guys kill me.

I guess Arnold was "elite" when he was a kid and he would do stuff like take weights into the woods and squat all day long

and you gonna accuse a brother of being one to go back and edit stuff to change meanings etc?? lol


lol, Im gonna let it go....its getting silly now...Im too old to get in with the silliness and psuedodramatic posturing

[the iron addict]

John,

I do not disagree with your methodology. Where I disagree is with your application. You are telling a bunch of (for the most part) young lifters without much experience under their belt about advanced methods that are not suitable for them yet and rarely make mention until called on it that these methods are outside their current experience level.

Context is extremely important. You will have a better reception if the methods suit the trainees needs, or you are posting on an advanced forum. BB.com attracts a LOT of newbie lifters and advice should be tailored to the audience or duly noted who it is applicable too.

Iron Addict

[the iron addict]

this???

I guess Arnold was "elite" when he was a kid and he would do stuff like take weights into the woods and squat all day long

Arnold had arguably the best genetics in BB history considering his physique and lack of sophistication in drug use. Nontheless, it is well known that he started using steroids at age 16 or so. Great genetics, lots of steroids, you can get away with things like that. Please don't confuse him with average lifters.

IA

[John Prophet]

youre right....from now on ill pm you all my advice so you can check it for me....id hate to lead these young guys astray

or ill just do like everyone else here does....Ill just say "rippetoe dude"...or "dude, 5x5 rox"....that will add a lot to the forum

[mjw8204]

I was wandering if it was wise to lift twice a day? I have alot free time on my hands this summer and would like to bulk up. Ive read many articles, but still cant find of figure out a workout that would allow for training twice a day. Could someone give me some advice or a training schedule. THANKS--Kevin

Look at all the trouble you caused.

[the iron addict]

youre right....from now on ill pm you all my advice so you can check it for me....id hate to lead these young guys astray

or ill just do like everyone else here does....Ill just say "rippetoe dude"...or "dude, 5x5 rox"....that will add a lot to the forum

Divergent ideas are great. But please, before you continue the debate look at your first post in this thread, and don't review as the writer. Look at it and ask how most people would interpret it. Looks to me like you told a 19 year old without a foundational strength base to train 2 x a day.

IA

[John Prophet]

I did...absolutely

and if asked again id tell him the same thing

if he was a really dedicated kid and would eat right id tell him 3x

he'd have him a base right quick


or id just give him a sheiko beginner routine, lol...6 weeks later he wouldnt be a beginner anymore.....id tell him to split it into 2x a day on M,W,Fr.....id bet anyone $50 the kid would have a 40lb bench increase

what else is he going to do, sit around and play video games all summer???

[the iron addict]

The sheiko beginner program isn't a bad program. But telling a 19 year old that he should do it as a 2x a day routine isn't needed.

IA

[olympic]

A few months ago I trained twice a day, 5 days a week. I trained HARD every workout. I did it for about 3 weeks and saw all my past PR's blown out of the water and because everything else for me was just eating and sleeping I gained a lot of weight in that process.

After 3 weeks I decided I should step it back a bit- now I'm back to 4 days a week, full body workouts. I do squats and deadlifts twice a week- some would say that is excessive.

Maybe I just have good genes, or maybe I just like to work hard, but I don't see why someone who is 19 couldn't do the same if they knew what they were doing.