MAN reps-skin rash from scorch?

[Rachel_n_SD]

Hi, question for the MAN reps or anybody who has experienced this.

I just bought some scorch v3 and started taking it on friday. Saturday, I woke up with my face and neck covered with some sort of rash. The bumps are white so you can't see them unless I am in sunlight. They itch, but not badly. It has been two days and it has not improved in the least, even though I did not take another dose.

I took the old version with no problems, but I know the V3 has been causing people problems because of the Xanthinol Nicotinate right?

I read through a few other people's posts about the rash they got, and it sounded much different than mine, also their rash seemed to go away in a matter of hours.

I'm not allergic to anything and I also did not eat anything out of the ordinary.

could scorch have caused this?

[xxghostxx]

Originally Posted by Rachel_n_SD

I took the old version with no problems, but I know the V3 has been causing people problems because of the Xanthinol Nicotinate right?

XN very well may be the culprit as it's a form of niacin that passes easily through cell membranes. Thus giving a more intensified niacin flush in many cases.

Originally Posted by Rachel_n_SD

could scorch have caused this?

I am not sure if this is the case or not. I too have read about the responses to the Scorvh V3 but I don't recall having read of anyone who's response did not attenuate in a matter of hours.

I will email Joey and Androgenic with this thread and hopefully get them to chime in with their input as I'm not certain what is going on. PM me your email address too if you don't plan on checking the forum later as we can email you just the same.

[Rachel_n_SD]

ok, i just PM'd you my email. thanks for your help, I hope they will drop in too so I can figure out if it's the scorch.

[Androgenic]

This is information on XN from International Anti-Aging Systems, where it's sold as a nootropic. If it is in fact the XN in scorch, no one else has had problems with the ingredients from the old version or synephrine (outside chance raspberry ketone-allergy, but doubtful)...most likely it is hypersensitivity to the Niacin-Flush...I've given niacin to my patients for cholesterol control and since I've gone more with the inositol hexanicotinate (no flush niacin)...but regardless your body builds up a tolerance to it, even cases on sensitive patients. Usually with high-doses, prior to reliance on I6N or timed release tabs, the dose would be built up over 4-6 weeks.

The greater your histamine response is endogenously with any other triggers the more likely you'll be hypersensitive. If you have rashes easily, break-outs, notable allergic sneezing/stuffiness, bad reactions to mosquito bites, food allergies, etc. This would all make you predisposed to higher sensitivity than most of the population. This is a potent form of niacin, as ghost mentioned, so the reaction is intensified given a histamine/allergy scenario. With niacin, the first few uses are usually the worst with most people because the "flush" scares them, some patients thought they were getting tingling like a heart attack (this is an older population that I am referencing), but it is a reaction one adjusts to and again the body decreases it reaction to with greater exposure over time. The flush itself is harmless. Above and beyond that if you are hypersensitive you can decrease the flushing by taking an aspirin 30 minutes prior to taking scorch or a niacin supplement. Your rash is an allergic reaction and a histamine response. There is no permanent damage and it will subside with cessation (and further use as well).


http://www.antiaging-systems.com/a2z/xanthinol.htm

Xanthinol Nicotinate helps you maintain memory and concentration
Xanthinol Nicotinate, the most potent form of niacin, stimulates memory and concentration by improving the brain’s blood flow

Xanthinol Nicotinate (XN) is a form of Niacin (vitamin B3) that passes easily through cell membranes. It is the most potent form of Niacin available.

XN has been shown to increase brain glucose metabolism, improve brain ATP levels and act as a vasodilator (improve brain blood flow). As such, XN has been used to treat insufficient blood flow to the arteries and the extremities, short-term memory disorders and lack of brain energy that compromises vigilance, concentration and attention. Furthermore, XN has been clinically shown to improve the reaction speed of the elderly.

XN (like Niacin) can cause a flushing of the skin and a sense of warmth. It has therefore been suggested that XN can aid weight control through water loss. However we would suggest that XN is only used for this purpose prior to exercise or prior to climbing into a hot bath. This is in order to minimize the flushing affects that may be uncomfortable for some people.

Dosage:
As an anti-aging memory support, take one or twp 150mg tablets three times a day, to a maximum of 12 tablets (1800mg total) prior to a workout or exercise.

Side effects:
At lower doses some minor side effects such as flushing, nausea, heartburn, itchy skin or vomiting (rare) may present themselves, these normally dissipate with a lower dose or continued use.

Caution:
Build up to high doses gradually. XN at high doses can cause blood pressure changes and must therefore be avoided by persons suffering from peptic ulcers, liver problems, severe hypotension, myocardial infarction or other congestive heart problems. At high dosages, seek your physicians advice if combining with potent vasodilators such as Ginko Biloba, Hydergine, Nicergoline, Picamilon.

What our customers say...

Xanthinol Nicotinate significantly improved reaction times in elderly subjects
S. M. Loriaux, J.B. Deijen, J.F. Orlebeke, J.H. DeSwart "The effect of Niacin and Xanthinol Nicotinate on human memory in different age categories" Psychopharmacology, Vol. 87, 1985 390-395.
Xanthinol appears to me to keep my mind clear and my body trim! I believe that these Niacin derivatives are key elements as recent reports about NADH attest to.
G.S., Arizona.

[Androgenic]

Some interesting studies regarding the mechanisms and referencing the medically accepted use of a cox-2 inhibitor (e.g. aspirin) to decrease the reaction. Hope this helps. You can PM me with any questions you might have additionally.


Title
Release of markedly increased quantities of prostaglandin D2 in vivo in humans following the administration of nicotinic acid.
Author
Morrow JD; Parsons WG 3d; Roberts LJ 2d
Address
Department of Pharmacology, Vanderbilt University, Nashville, TN 37232.
Source
Prostaglandins, 1989 Aug, 38:2, 263-74
Abstract
Nicotinic acid (niacin) is a B vitamin which is also a potent hypolipidemic agent. However, intense flushing occurs following ingestion of pharmacologic doses of niacin which greatly limits its usefulness in treating hyperlipidemias. Previous studies have demonstrated that niacin-induced flushing can be substantially attenuated by pre-treatment with cyclooxygenase inhibitors, suggesting that the vasodilation is mediated by a prostaglandin. However, the prostaglandin that presumably mediates the flush has not been conclusively determined. In this study we report the finding that ingestion of niacin evokes the release of markedly increased quantities of PGD2 in vivo in humans. PGD2 release was assessed by quantification of the PGD2 metabolite, 9 alpha, 11 beta-PGF2, in plasma by gas chromatography mass spectrometry. Following ingestion of 500 mg of niacin in three normal volunteers, intense flushing occurred and plasma levels of 9 alpha, 11 beta-PGF2 were found to increase dramatically by 800, 430, and 535-fold. Levels of 9 alpha, 11 beta-PGF2 reached a maximum between 12 and 45 min. after ingesting niacin and subsequently declined to near normal levels by 2-4 hours. Levels of 9 alpha, 11 beta-PGF2 in plasma correlated with the intensity and duration of flushing that occurred in the 3 volunteers. Release of PGD2 was not accompanied by a release of histamine which was assessed by quantification of plasma levels of the histamine metabolite, N tau-methylhistamine. This suggests that the origin of the PGD2 release is not the mast cell. Only a modest increase (approximately 2-fold) in the urinary excretion of the prostacyclin metabolite, 2,3-dinor-6-keto-PGF1 alpha, occurred following ingestion of niacin and no increase in the excretion of the major urinary metabolite of PGE2 was found. These results indicate that the major vasodilatory PG released following ingestion of niacin is PGD2. The fact that markedly increased quantities of PGD2 are released suggests that PGD2 is the mediator of niacin-induced vasodilation in humans.

Title
Membrane fatty acids, niacin flushing and clinical parameters.
Author
Glen AI; Cooper SJ; Rybakowski J; Vaddadi K; Brayshaw N; Horrobin DF
Address
Highland Psychiatric Research Group, Craig Dunain Hospital, Inverness, UK.
Source
Prostaglandins Leukot Essent Fatty Acids, 1996 Aug, 55:1-2, 9-15
Abstract
Clinical definitions of schizophrenia are unreliable and difficult to use. The niacin flush test, which involves prostaglandin-induced vasodilatation, offers a method of exploring essential fatty acid metabolism in schizophrenic patients and may serve to define a subgroup of patients. In a multicentre study of schizophrenic patients with negative symptoms, we have examined the clinical accompaniments of the niacin response. Patients failing to flush with niacin showed significantly reduced levels of arachidonic and docosahexaenoic acids. Conversion from non-flushing to flushing during the 6 month supplementation period was predicted by an increase in arachidonic acid levels in red blood cell membranes irrespective of nature of supplementation. In this study, patients were selected for their negative symptoms and, therefore, it was not surprising that further measures of negative or positive symptoms did not predict flushing. However, an increased score for affective symptoms was significantly associated with a positive flush response. The stability of the niacin test needs to be examined in relation to the periodicity of symptoms in schizophrenia and manic depressive illness. New information on the anandamide system suggests that it may be associated with periodic phenomena and should be investigated in relation to the niacin test.

[Rachel_n_SD]

thanks for the info, i sent you a PM too with a couple questions about the it.

[Rachel_n_SD]

well, an update, turns out it wasn't the scorch, it was a prescription drug i am taking which apparently has a reaction with alcohol.

the MAN reps were really helpful in narrowing down the cause, i just want to say that they continue to impress me as a reputable company.

[Rachel_n_SD]

well, an update, turns out it wasn't the scorch, it was a prescription drug i am taking which apparently has a reaction with alcohol.

the MAN reps were really helpful in narrowing down the cause, i just want to say that they continue to impress me as a reputable company.

[Androgenic]

I am glad we got to the bottom of it. To elucidate this process I am going to post a bit of what I discussed with you to help anyone else with any supplement/drug they are taking and potential allergies that may arise.

She had told me that she took the old formula and did not have any problems and assumed after reading some of the "flushing" reactions that it was scorch, more specifically the XN. My reaction was this...

The only way to deduce whether an ingredient in the formulation...which only synephrine, XN, and raspberry ketones are different from the old formulation is to stop taking it and see what happens. You could potentially have a legitimate allergy, as opposed to the standard flushing. In the medical realm people have drug allergies that they don't know of until taking the drug or class of drugs and have a reaction). I've you've taken a diet formula that had synephrine...that would eliminate that. Leaving the allergy potentially to Raspberries?/Raspberry Ketones, Niacin in high doses, or xanthinol (sugar alcohol).

It also is possible that it is something else. A new brand of makeup, new detergent, new perfume, new food or spice, a drug that causes photosensitivity...making you more sensitive to light/burns, new soap/shampoo, etc.

Next she told me that the rash was not a flushing, but more of a lasting, visible...legitimate rash, not at all consistent with the description of what some niacin-sensitive people experience. Further, she had started a new medication this past week and asked if that could be it, even though she had no reaction the first time she took it. She also stated she had no allergies to raspberries, sugar alcohols, or synephrine...eliminating the ingredients of scorch...at least on their own. Could it be an interaction with the medication and scorch or the medication and something else?

Absolutely. Further still there are numerous drug-nutrient interactions. Like taking grapefruit juice with certain medications, but there are many and this could happen with a drug reaction.

Or you may be building up a saturation level of the drug, depending on its half life and how quickly your liver is metabolizing/clearing it. At some threshhold you may have the allergic reaction. If you tell me the drug I can look it up in the PDR and see the incidence rates and likelihood, but any drug and any nutrient have the possibility of allergy in a given individual. We're all genetically different.

So science prevails. I am glad I could help. In this case she took the medicine without alcohol and was fine with no allergic reaction. I am sure she has drank alcohol in the past with no reaction. Together, they did cause a reaction...leading to the confusion...but this is the case with many drugs/nutrients/environmental variables/genetics. I am posting this not to say anything in regards to "it's not scorch" or to win points, merely to help any scorch/niacin users that do experience a flush and also anyone taking any supplement or drug to be scientific about what's happening to you and using deduction to be proactive with your health. Rachel, Good luck and good health! Your sleuthing skills gave you the answer.