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  1. #1
    Registered User AygunGuric's Avatar
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    How Much Arginine is too much Arginine ?

    I mean all these NO products contains Arginine right?
    Thay also contain different types of arginines (a-akg , a-kic) (which are more powerful?? or not??).
    So:
    What is the difference between These Arginine?
    Taking 2 grams of L-Arginine is equal to taking 2 grams of Arginine-AKG ?
    How many grams/day would be overdose? (protein powders also contain Arginine, meat has it, Milk probably has it too, ect...)
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  2. #2
    Registered User dkitt10's Avatar
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    i take 2grams in the morning 3 before workout and another 2 at night

    no problems here
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  3. #3
    Registered User Jimmyp's Avatar
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    I Feel that 3-5 grams preworkout is the optimal dosing range.
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  4. #4
    Better and better... RSobkowz's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Jimmyp
    I Feel that 3-5 grams preworkout is the optimal dosing range.
    I've taken a BUTTLOAD of arginine at a time. It does seem to increase in effectiveness the higher you go. There's a lot of playing around you can do. The popular caplet NO products using AKG usually list arginine AKG at 3 grams. 1.773 of that is actually arginine and the rest is AKG so a lot of times I will double up on the dosage.
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  5. #5
    $9.99 A Month IntensityX's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by STILL FREE
    I think over 20g gets bad.
    Um I don't want to know what happens at 20g
    "The road to salvation is through Christ"

    Luke 1:74
    to rescue us from the hand of our enemies, and to enable us to serve him without fear

    ^Love is the power of the righteousness life that overcomes the fear that leads to sin, and the life in which God is pleased.
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  6. #6
    Better and better... RSobkowz's Avatar
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    Sorry, to answer the questions you had, or try to...

    L-arginine in the basic form is the poorest absorbed of the bunch. This type though is said to have a more pronounced effect on GH release though as opposed th AKG or ethyl-ester. I've read conflicting articles on that and I really can't say.

    The latter of the 2 are absorbed and shuttled to the muscle more effectively than the basic form however. As I said before, 3 grams of AAKG is actually 1.773 grams of L-arginine and the remainder is in the AKG.

    The esterfied version is simply argine with an ester, a compound from the reaction of alcohols and carboxylic acid. The 2 more techno versions allow it to pass into the intestine more in tact and be absorbed whereas the standard form degrades quickly in the stomach.

    Does that help?

    -Ron
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  7. #7
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    Originally Posted by RSobkowz
    Sorry, to answer the questions you had, or try to...

    L-arginine in the basic form is the poorest absorbed of the bunch. This type though is said to have a more pronounced effect on GH release though as opposed th AKG or ethyl-ester. I've read conflicting articles on that and I really can't say.

    The latter of the 2 are absorbed and shuttled to the muscle more effectively than the basic form however. As I said before, 3 grams of AAKG is actually 1.773 grams of L-arginine and the remainder is in the AKG.

    The esterfied version is simply argine with an ester, a compound from the reaction of alcohols and carboxylic acid. The 2 more techno versions allow it to pass into the intestine more in tact and be absorbed whereas the standard form degrades quickly in the stomach.

    Does that help?

    -Ron
    Got any studies that show that AEE is absorbed any better than l-arginine? I have never seen anything to support this claim...
    everyone just assumes "oh, ethyl esters are absorbed better"
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  8. #8
    Registered User AygunGuric's Avatar
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    So the only difference is the absorption?

    My local store told me that If I take 3g of A-AKG, it would be equal to 6 grams of L-Arginine that I should consider buying AKG stuff than L-Arginine. Is this True ?
    I think he tells this because NO2 products cost more and he wants to sell them. But also he was competing in the past so he sure knows what is what...
    What people here think of this? Are the derivates comparable with the original stuff?
    He also said 10 grams daily would be normal.. so it's 6-7 NO2 pills min. a day. It's recommended "3" on the box. And I really don't want to exceed the rec. doses of anything. Can it be harmful?
    As I have some problem with the pressure in my eyes. (basicly the problem is : the veins in the eyes dilate and cause other problems..)
    These No2 products dilate the veins of eyes too right? I didn't have anything uncomfortable till now. But If I take it over the recommended dose, can it do anything bad?
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  9. #9
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    Pct

    Aside from use as a PCT agent (it helps to increase sperm motility) my
    honest opinion is that 99%+ of the current crop of arginine prods...any of
    them...are useless in increasing athletic performance, muscle mass, and
    all that jazz. If you have diabetes there might be some benefit to
    supplementing with a good arginine product. Other than that, there
    is no real reason to spend money on an arginine product because they are
    self limiting.

    Save your nickels guys!

    BK
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  10. #10
    Banned Dexter Martinez's Avatar
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    pfftt L-arginine is good for semen
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  11. #11
    Registered User cgnarles's Avatar
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    L-arginine, is about the best kind to use. I wouldn't use AAKG since it is not near as good as the L-arginine. I would go with about 10 grams a day for the dosage. 5 pre work out and 5 post work out.
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    Almost Positive NATHAN518's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Kohen_Gadol
    Aside from use as a PCT agent (it helps to increase sperm motility) my
    honest opinion is that 99%+ of the current crop of arginine prods...any of
    them...are useless in increasing athletic performance, muscle mass, and
    all that jazz. If you have diabetes there might be some benefit to
    supplementing with a good arginine product. Other than that, there
    is no real reason to spend money on an arginine product because they are
    self limiting.

    Save your nickels guys!

    BK
    Ahhh, the infamous BK...i completely agree^^^
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  13. #13
    I curl in the squat rack 2bbig's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Kohen_Gadol
    Aside from use as a PCT agent (it helps to increase sperm motility) my
    honest opinion is that 99%+ of the current crop of arginine prods...any of
    them...are useless in increasing athletic performance, muscle mass, and
    all that jazz. If you have diabetes there might be some benefit to
    supplementing with a good arginine product. Other than that, there
    is no real reason to spend money on an arginine product because they are
    self limiting.

    Save your nickels guys!

    BK
    So alot of the NO Products are just marketing ploys?
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  14. #14
    Registered User otter2u's Avatar
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    I can take up to 10 grams per day but any more than that and my butt is blowing chunks
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  15. #15
    Better and better... RSobkowz's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by cgnarles
    L-arginine, is about the best kind to use. I wouldn't use AAKG since it is not near as good as the L-arginine.
    Based on....?
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  16. #16
    Squat Deadlift Bench Karl Moen's Avatar
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    arginine was banned in Canada

    our country is really strict on supps though, anything that even hints at hGH release gets capped quick.

    seriously though Health Canada did studies showing that arginine can cause death in people with heart disease or people who've had heart attacks

    I stopped taking it only because I heard it should be cycled and not used everyday
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  17. #17
    Registered User AygunGuric's Avatar
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    I fell kind of dizzy when I take 3 pills a day (NO2). (Is this normal?)
    Feels like I'm high but in a very unplesant way. There is this overwhelming feeling though like I can Push 100 kgs more..
    Is this normal? Or I'm taking some other **** under name of NO2
    HELP!?! (seems kind of bad huh?)
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  18. #18
    Registered User P33M's Avatar
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    Hi, this is a pure hypothesis but I know that an increase in NO production may cause a lowering in blood pressure, so maybe that you are experiencing such side effects because of a pressure drop...
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  19. #19
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    Originally Posted by RSobkowz
    Sorry, to answer the questions you had, or try to...

    L-arginine in the basic form is the poorest absorbed of the bunch.

    *SNIPPED!*

    Does that help?

    -Ron
    Did you come up with this on your own or are you repeating some propaganda
    that a supplement company selling a fancy salt/ester of arginine has
    posted on their website?

    L-Arginine and the HCL salt are EXCEEDINGLY well absorbed from the GI tract.

    The only real merit to a funky salt/ester is it potentially allows for a longer
    half life or it has 'something else useful' (e.g. malic acid) attached to it.

    There is a very good reason why the type of arginine found behind the
    counter at pharmacies and made by big pharma is of the plain-Jane
    L-Arginine base or HCl variant.

    It's cheap and effective.

    However, I admit really cool sounding salts/esters probably sell a whole lot
    better to guys in the gym.

    Anyone want to purchase L-Arginine-4-O-beta-D-galactopyranosyl-D-gluconate from me? It's a wicked cool and highly absorbable type of
    arginine. The 4-O-beta-D-galactopyranosyl-D-gluconate salt is a wicked
    cool high tech way to adminstered macrolide antibiotics.

    Oh, and it costs like $119/783g tub of the super secret "matrix" of
    15 servings. But man, it is WAYYYY beyone nitric oxide. Way beyond!

    A free tub of SizeOn to the first guy/gal who can PM what the more
    common name for 4-O-beta-D-galactopyranosyl-D-gluconate is.

    Buy the cheapest (real) L-Arginine supplement you can and do not exceed
    3-5g every 2-3 days MAX.

    BK
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    Originally Posted by AygunGuric
    So the only difference is the absorption?

    My local store told me that If I take 3g of A-AKG, it would be equal to 6 grams of L-Arginine that I should consider buying AKG stuff than L-Arginine. Is this True ? ?
    No. He lied to you or is a parrot. AAKG is *USELESS* in building mass or
    increasing strength. It might give you a nice temporary "pump" though.
    And it is no better than plain, cheap L-Arg or the HCl salt.

    3g of AAKG would be equal to LESS than 3g of plain L-Arg.

    Try taking the arginine supplement(s) every second or third day - they'll
    work better and you'll save money.

    You're welcome.

    BK
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    Originally Posted by RSobkowz
    Based on....?

    Price and science. Good enough?

    BK
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    Almost Positive NATHAN518's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Kohen_Gadol

    A free tub of SizeOn to the first guy/gal who can PM what the more
    common name for 4-O-beta-D-galactopyranosyl-D-gluconate is.
    PM sent BK
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  23. #23
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    Originally Posted by Karl Moen
    arginine was banned in Canada

    our country is really strict on supps though, anything that even hints at hGH release gets capped quick.

    seriously though Health Canada did studies showing that arginine can cause death in people with heart disease or people who've had heart attacks

    I stopped taking it only because I heard it should be cycled and not used everyday
    will my whiteblood be stopped at customs then?
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    Originally Posted by Kohen_Gadol
    Did you come up with this on your own or are you repeating some propaganda
    that a supplement company selling a fancy salt/ester of arginine has
    posted on their website?

    L-Arginine and the HCL salt are EXCEEDINGLY well absorbed from the GI tract.

    The only real merit to a funky salt/ester is it potentially allows for a longer
    half life or it has 'something else useful' (e.g. malic acid) attached to it.

    There is a very good reason why the type of arginine found behind the
    counter at pharmacies and made by big pharma is of the plain-Jane
    L-Arginine base or HCl variant.

    It's cheap and effective.

    BK
    I'm the LAST person to believe a supplement company first of all. I'm going by what I have read, and also what I have personally experienced.

    When I said poorest absorbed of the bunch where did I say it is POORLY absorbed? In comparison to the other forms, AAKG, and AEE it is the poorEST absorbed. Never said it sucks as you seem to think. Find me studies proving HCl is more bioavailable than the AAKG or AEE if you have them handy. I'm not being a dick, if the proof is there I want to read it. I'm saying that with a totally open mind so fi you can come up with them please post them.

    Personally I have a couple bottles of HCl, 4 bottles of AE2, a bottle of Niox, and a few others sitting on top of my gun safe. I come across the stuff dirt cheap and I give them a shot. Hell the 4 bottles of AE2 ran me 24 bucks total for 960 capsules. I can honestly say I get a better "pump" from the fancy versions of arginine which I actually was almost hoping I wouldn't. I was and am a fan of the HCl version simply for the cost and the fact that it's not over-marketed by every supplement company on the face of the earth. Luckily I came across all the other makes of it at prices actually below that of regular HCl so I had to give them a shot.

    And if you base your post on what big pharma does, more power to you, I'm glad for you.

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  25. #25
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    Originally Posted by Kohen_Gadol
    ...do not exceed
    3-5g every 2-3 days MAX.

    BK
    Forgot to ask about this one. What's the reasoning behind that? Again, I'm asking to LEARN, not be a dick.
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  26. #26
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    Arginine blood flow stimulators ("nitric-oxide" or "NO2" supplements) have been shown to increase vasodilation, but only in unfed people receiving enormous doses through an IV.

    Oral arginine supplementation doesn't affect blood flow.

    A dose as low as 10 grams has been associated with gastric upset when consumed orally. This dose has no significant effect on glycogen storage, even if it didn't cause diarrhea.

    Time release arginine is supposed to lead to a "perpetual pump" effect. New studies have shown this not to be the case.

    NO2 was shown to have no effect compared to a placebo on body composition or muscle strength.

    It's not possible for us to consume high enough levels of arginine to effectively increase nitric oxide levels.

    Copycat NO2 products are no better than the original supplement. In fact, those that contain glycocyamine should be avoided because of potential health concerns.

    If you think these products work for you, then you'd better look into the placebo effect.

    Arginine might temporarily elevate growth hormone levels, but only if you're able to take unrealistic doses. There's little evidence to support that this short term increase in GH would do anything for your physique anyway.

    In one study, arginine aspartate was shown to increase prolactin by an average of 75%. Prolactin is associated with decreased Testosterone levels.

    Five grams of arginine consumed during resistance exercise was shown to decrease normal exercise-induced GH output.

    The positive benefits of oral arginine supplementation can only be achieved through doses higher than the human body can handle. And most (but not all) of this effect is mediated by insulin. So if you want to have blood flow increases equivalent to a huge IV arginine infusion, just manipulate insulin through other means
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    Links to studies showing this?
    http://bodyspace.bodybuilding.com/RSobkowz/

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  28. #28
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    Originally Posted by RSobkowz
    Links to studies showing this?

    Sorry, no problems.

    1. Adams MR, Forsyth CJ, Jessup W, Robinson J, Celermajer DS. Oral -arginine inhibits platelet aggregation but does not enhance endothelium-dependent dilation in healthy young men. J. Am. Coll. Cardiol. 26 (1995), pp. 10541061

    2. Baron AD. Hemodynamic actions of insulin. Am J Physiol. 1994 Aug;267(2 Pt 1):E187-202

    3. Baron AD, Tarshoby M, Hook G, Lazaridis EN, Cronin J, Johnson A, Steinberg HO. Interaction between insulin sensitivity and muscle perfusion on glucose uptake in human skeletal muscle: evidence for capillary recruitment. Diabetes. 2000 May;49(5):768-74

    4. Beaumier L, Castillo L, Ajami AM, Young VR. Urea cycle intermediate kinetics and nitrate excretion at normal and "therapeutic" intakes of arginine in humans. Am J Physiol. 1995 Nov;269(5 Pt 1):E884-96

    5. Besset A, Bonardet A, Rondouin G, Descomps B, Passouant P. Increase in sleep related GH and Prl secretion after chronic arginine aspartate administration in man. Acta Endocrinol (Copenh). 1982 Jan;99(1):18-23

    6. Bode-Boger SM, Boger RH, Galland A, Tsikas D, Frolich JC. L-arginine-induced vasodilation in healthy humans: pharmacokinetic-pharmacodynamic relationship. Br J Clin Pharmacol. 1998 Nov;46(5):489-97

    7. Buvat J, Lemaire A. Endocrine screening in 1,022 men with erectile dysfunction: clinical significance and cost-effective strategy. J Urol. 1997 Nov;158(5):1764-7

    8. Campbell B, Baer J, Roberts M, Vacanti T, Marcello B, Thomas A, Kerksick C, Wilborn, C, Rohle D, Taylor L, Rasmussen C, Greenwood M, Wilson R, Kreider R. Effects of arginine alpha-ketoglutarate supplementation on body composition and training adaptations. Sports Nutrition Review Journal 1 (1): S10, 2004

    9. Castillo L, Sanchez M, Vogt J, Chapman TE, DeRojas-Walker TC, Tannenbaum SR, Ajami AM, Young VR. Plasma arginine, citrulline, and ornithine kinetics in adults, with observations on nitric oxide synthesis. Am J Physiol. 1995 Feb;268(2 Pt 1):E360-7

    10. Chaput de Saintonge DM, Herxheimer A. Harnessing placebo effects in health care Lancet. 1994 Oct 8;344(8928):995-8

    11. Chin-Dusting JP, Alexander CT, Arnold PJ, Hodgson WC, Lux AS, Jennings GL. Effects of in vivo and in vitro -arginine supplementation on healthy human vessels. J. Cardiovasc. Pharmacol. 28 (1996), pp. 158166

    12. Chin-Dusting JP, Kaye DM, Lefkovits J, Wong J, Bergin P, Jennings GL. Dietary supplementation with -arginine fails to restore endothelial function in forearm resistance arteries in patients with severe heart failure. J. Am. Coll. Cardiol. 27 (1996), pp. 12071213

    13. Dela F, Mikines KJ, Tronier B, Galbo H. Diminished arginine-stimulated insulin secretion in trained men. J Appl Physiol. 1990 Jul;69(1):261-7

    14. Gater DR, Gater DA, Uribe JM, Bunt JC. Effects of arginine/lysine supplementation and resistance training on glucose tolerance. J Appl Physiol. 1992 Apr;72(4):1279-84

    15. Giugliano D, Marfella R, Verrazzo G, Acampora R, Coppola L, Cozzolino D, D'Onofrio F The vascular effects of L-Arginine in humans. The role of endogenous insulin. J Clin Invest. 1997 Feb 1;99(3):433-8

    16. Hardin DS, Azzarelli B, Edwards J, Wigglesworth J, Maianu L, Brechtel G, Johnson A, Baron A, Garvey WT. Mechanisms of enhanced insulin sensitivity in endurance-trained athletes: effects on blood flow and differential expression of GLUT 4 in skeletal muscles. J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 1995 Aug;80(8):2437-46

    17. Hishikawa K, Nakaki T, Tsuda M, Esumi H, Ohshima H, Suzuki H, Saruta T, Kato R. Effect of systemic L-arginine administration on hemodynamics and nitric oxide release in man. Jpn Heart J. 1992 Jan;33(1):41-8

    18. Kerksick C, Campbell B, Taylor L., Wilborn C, Rasmussen C, Vacanti T, Greenwood M, Bowden R, Wilson R, Kreider R. Pharmacokinetic profile of time released and non-time released Arginine. Sports Nutrition Review Journal 1 (1): S9, 2004

    19. Kirsch I, and Sapirstein G. Listening to Prozac but Hearing Placebo:
    A Meta-Analysis of Antidepressant Medication Prevention & Treatment, Volume 1, Article 0002a, posted June 26, 1998

    20. Koopman R, Wagenmakers AJ, Manders RJ, Zorenc AH, Senden JM, Gorselink M, Keizer HA, van Loon LJ. The combined ingestion of protein and free leucine with carbohydrate increases post-exercise muscle protein synthesis in vivo in male subjects. Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab. In Press 2005

    21. Kurz S, Harrison DG. Insulin and the arginine paradox. J Clin Invest. 1997 Feb 1;99(3):369-70

    22. Ivy JL, Goforth HW Jr, Damon BM, McCauley TR, Parsons EC, Price TB.Early postexercise muscle glycogen recovery is enhanced with a carbohydrate-protein supplement. J Appl Physiol. 2002 Oct;93(4):1337-44

    23. Macdonald MJ, Fahien LA, Brown LJ, Hasan NM, Buss JD, Kendrick MA. Perspective: emerging evidence for signaling roles of mitochondrial anaplerotic products in insulin secretion Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab 288: E1-E15, 2005

    24. Marcell TJ, Taaffe DR, Hawkins SA, Tarpenning KM, Pyka G, Kohlmeier L, Wiswell RA, Marcus R. Oral arginine does not stimulate basal or augment exercise-induced GH secretion in either young or old adults. J Gerontol A Biol Sci Med Sci. 1999 Aug;54(8):M395-9

    25. Richmonds CR, Kaminski HJ. Nitric oxide synthase expression and effects of nitric oxide modulation on contractility of rat extraocular muscle., FASEB J. 2001 Aug;15(10):1764-70

    26. Robinson TM, Sewell DA, Greenhaff PL. L-arginine ingestion after rest and exercise: effects on glucose disposal. Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2003 Aug;35(8):1309-15

    27. Steinberg HO, Brechtel G, Johnson A, Fineberg N, Baron AD. Insulin-mediated skeletal muscle vasodilation is nitric oxide dependent. A novel action of insulin to increase nitric oxide release. Clin Invest. 1994 Sep;94(3):1172-9

    28. Tipton KD, Rasmussen BB, Miller SL, Wolf SE, Owens-Stovall SK, Petrini BE, Wolfe RR. Timing of amino acid-carbohydrate ingestion alters anabolic response of muscle to resistance exercise. Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab. 2001 Aug;281(2):E197-206

    29. Yaspelkis, BB, III, and Ivy JL. The effect of a carbohydrate-arginine supplement on post-exercise carbohydrate metabolism. Int J Sport Nutr 9: 241-250, 1999

    30. Zawadzki KM, Yaspelkis BB 3rd, Ivy JL. Carbohydrate-protein complex increases the rate of muscle glycogen storage after exercise. J Appl Physiol. 1992 May;72(5):1854-9
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  29. #29
    Registered User david4zero8's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Karl Moen
    arginine was banned in Canada

    our country is really strict on supps though, anything that even hints at hGH release gets capped quick.

    seriously though Health Canada did studies showing that arginine can cause death in people with heart disease or people who've had heart attacks

    I stopped taking it only because I heard it should be cycled and not used everyday
    Thanks for bringing this point up. I did a quick google search and came up with the website:

    http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/ahc-asc/media...2006_30_e.html

    My father has been supplementing with a supplement containing arginine in it, and has had a heart attack in the past. I will have to look up the study referrenced.
    HORMONEMAN- worst rep on bb.com (WORST COMPANY owner) Steve Protein Factory is catching up (Edit: He's there).
    Read these threads:
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    HORMONEMAN's lies confirmed:
    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=662222
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  30. #30
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    yea ive always thought Arginine was a load of crap from what ive read, doesnt stop people from spending heps of money on it tho. sup companies reallyhave some people by the balls
    PHD in bro science
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