Muscle relaxers

[rsw1]

Any idea if muscle relaxers have an effect on muscle development, growth, or worst of all, cause degeneration?

My ortho doc gave me some to help with my neck issues. Although I only take them when needed (once or twice a week), somehow it's seems strange/counterproductive to growth and development especially during the evening after working out. Perhaps just an imaginary concern, but worth asking.

[joed]

IMO your doc could answer that question for your particular situation better than any of us; give his nurse a call. (personally, I wouldn't worry about it, but that's me.)

[lukamar]

I agree ask your doc. Also the best muscle relaxant on earth is Hot Water, over 105, or maybe 108, Deg Fer I don't remember which temperature it is.

[rsw1]

IMO your doc could answer that question for your particular situation better than any of us; give his nurse a call. (personally, I wouldn't worry about it, but that's me.)

That's just it. Although I found a good orthopedic doctor,.....and as I've found with many doctors, they're non-committal with their answers in the bodybuilding arena.
When asked, he replied, "errrr, well....., no, shouldn't be a problem".
Doesn't exactly instill a lot of confidence in their answer. I just don't think most doctors are comfortable answering questions about anabolic/catabolic concerns.

[joed]

OK, you can do some research. Go to the website of your health care company & do a search on side effects of the medicine he gave you, or look at the handout sheet that came with the meds. If muscle probs have been encountered, they'll be listed there. Alternatively, call the pharmacy that filled your prescription & speak to the pharmacist; they're usually quite helpful.

[pastorgbc]

Any idea if muscle relaxers have an effect on muscle development, growth, or worst of all, cause degeneration?

My ortho doc gave me some to help with my neck issues. Although I only take them when needed (once or twice a week), somehow it's seems strange/counterproductive to growth and development especially during the evening after working out. Perhaps just an imaginary concern, but worth asking.

I am not a doctor, but I have been hurt enough in my life to have asked questions about muscle relaxers. I do not like them.

Muscle relaxers are basically a powerful antihistamine. Theoretically, this can ease spasms.

They also will make you quite sleepy and also allow you to relax, which in turn cauese spasmodic epsisode to ease, because often spasm continue or get worse because we are always testing or stretching the area.

Doctors have advised me against strength training while taking muscle relaxers. First they make you groggy, second they can sap strength which can make you susceptible to injury.

The other thing to consider is that histamines are hormones that are secreted as a response to the immune system. Anything that messes with your hormones puts your endocrine system in a tizzy, and spiking adrenaline, insulin, and cortisol with a tough workout may cause problems as well.

That's my very superficial understanding, but I had the same questions once.

Ray

[rsw1]

I am not a doctor, but I have been hurt enough in my life to have asked questions about muscle relaxers. I do not like them.

Muscle relaxers are basically a powerful antihistamine. Theoretically, this can ease spasms.

They also will make you quite sleepy and also allow you to relax, which in turn cauese spasmodic epsisode to ease, because often spasm continue or get worse because we are always testing or stretching the area.

Doctors have advised me against strength training while taking muscle relaxers. First they make you groggy, second they can sap strength which can make you susceptible to injury.

The other thing to consider is that histamines are hormones that are secreted as a response to the immune system. Anything that messes with your hormones puts your endocrine system in a tizzy, and spiking adrenaline, insulin, and cortisol with a tough workout may cause problems as well.

That's my very superficial understanding, but I had the same questions once.

Ray

Thanks a million Ray. That's the type of info I was looking for. I took Joed's advice and did an extensive PDR search, but all the PDR really tells you is the usual...... "May cause dizziness, drowsiness, hives, don't take with alcohol, etc.
Drug precautions don't really supply the "down and dirty" you're looking for, and doctors don't either.

Interesting what you said about histamines too. Found out years ago (for reasons I won't go into) that drugs like Zantac (for indigestion and heartburn) are in fact histamine blockers. "H-2" to be more specific. Not a good thing if you don't absolutely need them.

[30-A rider]

I am not a doctor, but I have been hurt enough in my life to have asked questions about muscle relaxers. I do not like them.

Muscle relaxers are basically a powerful antihistamine. Theoretically, this can ease spasms.

They also will make you quite sleepy and also allow you to relax, which in turn cauese spasmodic epsisode to ease, because often spasm continue or get worse because we are always testing or stretching the area.

Doctors have advised me against strength training while taking muscle relaxers. First they make you groggy, second they can sap strength which can make you susceptible to injury.

The other thing to consider is that histamines are hormones that are secreted as a response to the immune system. Anything that messes with your hormones puts your endocrine system in a tizzy, and spiking adrenaline, insulin, and cortisol with a tough workout may cause problems as well.

That's my very superficial understanding, but I had the same questions once.

Ray

Thats a very good laymans term answer Ray.Very impressive. Joeds suggestion is very good too. Reason most docs dont commit to an answer is cause they dont know. Most Docs will learn what the action of a drug does, but dont rmemebr enough about what side effects it may cause unless they are serious.

Fact is this when taking any drug. If it is not part of your diet is must be detoxified by your liver and kidneys are the second organ to be most affected. Most peoples livers take a beating today, and considering it plays a major role in your immunity know that when taking a drug your immunity is decreased; hence when attempting to cure one ailment we leave ourselves lwith less defense in fighting other our bodies come in contact with.

I truely dont like it when a doc gives a never ending perscription, or just as bad says take OTC NSAIDs for pain. The doc says take as needed for pain. The directin on the bottle says take every 4-6 hours up to two tablets...Next sentence is the one everyone ignores which is if after 3-5 days symptoms persist discontinue use and consult doctor. This is a nice way of saying this is toxic stuff and we dont want any liability. New Journal of AMA; study sitting in front of me right now. Basically study states that people taking 4 grams of tylenol (regular strength) daily 2x a day (which is a total of 4 tablets, after 2 weeks came back with abnormal liver tests. Study went further stating that if one is someone who drinks alcohol regularly taking just 2 grams a day produces abnormal liver tests. Point Im making is I dont care if its a muscle relxer, and NSAID or whatever medication it is...the stuff is toxic and bad for you to take over long periods. To top it off they are nothing more than band-aid which cover symptoms of underlying problems instead of fixing the probelm.

[rsw1]

Thats a very good laymans term answer Ray.Very impressive. Joeds suggestion is very good too. Reason most docs dont commit to an answer is cause they dont know. Most Docs will learn what the action of a drug does, but dont rmemebr enough about what side effects it may cause unless they are serious.

Fact is this when taking any drug. If it is not part of your diet is must be detoxified by your liver and kidneys are the second organ to be most affected. Most peoples livers take a beating today, and considering it plays a major role in your immunity know that when taking a drug your immunity is decreased; hence when attempting to cure one ailment we leave ourselves lwith less defense in fighting other our bodies come in contact with.

I truely dont like it when a doc gives a never ending perscription, or just as bad says take OTC NSAIDs for pain. The doc says take as needed for pain. The directin on the bottle says take every 4-6 hours up to two tablets...Next sentence is the one everyone ignores which is if after 3-5 days symptoms persist discontinue use and consult doctor. This is a nice way of saying this is toxic stuff and we dont want any liability. New Journal of AMA; study sitting in front of me right now. Basically study states that people taking 4 grams of tylenol (regular strength) daily 2x a day (which is a total of 4 tablets, after 2 weeks came back with abnormal liver tests. Study went further stating that if one is someone who drinks alcohol regularly taking just 2 grams a day produces abnormal liver tests. Point Im making is I dont care if its a muscle relxer, and NSAID or whatever medication it is...the stuff is toxic and bad for you to take over long periods. To top it off they are nothing more than band-aid which cover symptoms of underlying problems instead of fixing the probelm.

Reps for both of you. Great information for anyone reading this. NSAID's are without a doubt the most "abused" medication out there.
Wish I still had the link, but I recently read an article on anti-inflamatory steroids. Among others things they're over-prescribed......But the side effects are like reading a horror story. Destroy your body. Whatever your problem is, I'd say steroids are a classic case of "the cure is worse than the illness".

[goatscrot]

Any idea if muscle relaxers have an effect on muscle development, growth, or worst of all, cause degeneration?

They can make you drowsy.

They won't affect muscle growth/development or cause degeneration.

[Hey-Iwas51]

Point Im making is I dont care if its a muscle relxer, and NSAID or whatever medication it is...the stuff is toxic and bad for you to take over long periods. To top it off they are nothing more than band-aid which cover symptoms of underlying problems instead of fixing the probelm.

Ok... 30-A rider, the NSAID question has bothered me since my tendonitis started flaring back up. I have been taking something called Lodine, pretty much daily/regularly, and I'm thinking if I didn't I could pretty much forget strength training/body building.

I seem to be having pretty slow growth, so I am wonderning if NSAIDs have any significant affect on the ability to grow. I am sure there are other reasons that could contribute to the slow growth, wimpy test level, not enough sleep, eating to hold my weight down, etc, but am I shooting myself in the foot taking the Lodine and Ibuprofen?

(I basically spent 9 months loosing weight, and for 9 more months trying to maintain and build muscle mass.)

Any thoughts??

Thanks in advance.

Dan

[goatscrot]

....I am wonderning if NSAIDs have any significant affect on the ability to grow.

Very little, if any.

[30-A rider]

I would love to help but will be the first one to admit when I dont know a thing ...and I really dont know. When thinking about it physiologically I would say no effect of growth at all....in fact the only way I could see an NSAID effecting growth would be mildly positive, in that if you are arthritic in any joint or have any swelling in a joint (like I do in my knees daily) it could only increadse ROM and decrease pain ... allowing one to work a little harder duing movements.

That being said though. Im glad the Nsaid thing bothers you ..it should. about 15 -20 yearas when all the NSAIDS became mainstream, and every drug company came out with their version...there was an early suspicion that NSAID were causing increased kidney disease. If you talk to a Nephrologist outside of his office and you know them well...they will tell you strait up it is thier beleif that the #1 cause of kidney disease in the Us today is overuse of NSAIDS. Look at NBA stars like Alonzo Mourning and Sean Elliot both who came down with kidney Disease in thier 20's whith no family history,,,but both have admited to high level doses of OTC anit inflammatories/ relievers. Mourning had to have kidney transplants; I didnt follow Elliots career enough to remember. I dont care how anyone attempts to justify its use...the stuff is bad....If you didnt kill it or pick it off the tree or out of the ground then its not supposed to go into your body enless its absolutely necessary.

I have recurring tendonitis in my shoulders. Im sure to ice them before and after workouts, Im always sure to do internal and external exercises at least twice a week...and I did get bad enoughn in one at one point that I couldnt press a 10# dumbell in my left when I typically work up to presses for 10-12 reps with 110# dumbells...at that point I couldnt even sleep so I got a cortizone shot from my orthopedist and helped me out big time. Id rather see you go that route if it gets severe enough than to take anti- inflammatories. Lots of people disagree with me and beleive they are harmless as thats what they have been raised to think. If you look to find the research of the effects it has had on people over the past 20 years it will floor you.

Wish I had more to give you...but far as growth goes all I can say is the best info you will get is researching yourslef as if you think your MD knows, think again...how many MDs you know that even are in shape let alone train with weights ..see what Im saying? Good luck to you.

Ok... 30-A rider, the NSAID question has bothered me since my tendonitis started flaring back up. I have been taking something called Lodine, pretty much daily/regularly, and I'm thinking if I didn't I could pretty much forget strength training/body building.

I seem to be having pretty slow growth, so I am wonderning if NSAIDs have any significant affect on the ability to grow. I am sure there are other reasons that could contribute to the slow growth, wimpy test level, not enough sleep, eating to hold my weight down, etc, but am I shooting myself in the foot taking the Lodine and Ibuprofen?

(I basically spent 9 months loosing weight, and for 9 more months trying to maintain and build muscle mass.)

Any thoughts??

Thanks in advance.

Dan

[Hey-Iwas51]

Good input anyway... I finally found out how to rep people, so take that!

I have been worried about the NSAID stuff. Supposedly Lodine is easier on your system, but who knows.

Also been using Ice, Turmeric, Noni Juice, deep massage (wife's uncle is a massage therapist, just lives too far out of town to make much use of, but he showed me a spot to dig into on my elbow)

For your tendonits, you might want to consider Noni... it is a natural anti-inflamatory. Until I started working out Noni kept my tendonitis completely clear. I had it pretty bad when I started drinking the stuff, and was taking Lodine off and on then (6 years ago). Actually quit the Lodine when I got on the Noni Juice (until resistance training of course.)

Also, you might consider Turmeric too. It is also a natural anti-inflamatory. It has to be the theraputic kind with 95% Curcumin in it. I am trying it, and it may be helping some too. You do have to take a lot, but it is reasonably priced, unless you by the GNC joint version, which has a few other herbals in it too.

Thanks again.
Dan

[rsw1]

. If you talk to a Nephrologist outside of his office and you know them well...they will tell you strait up it is thier beleif that the #1 cause of kidney disease in the Us today is overuse of NSAIDS. .

Great post Rider, and I'm a firm believer in everything you said. I suppose the only remaining questions is, "what is considered overuse?".

As with the muscle relaxers, I only take NSAID's when needed. The problem is that sometimes I "need" them alot (for the same reasons......neck problems). I'll frequently wake up with a headache from sleeping wrong, and take 3-4 Advil liquidgels (my favorite) in the morning. But......this is only about 3-4 days a week. So...... over a 7 day period, that's a max total of 16 a week. Plus, I intentionally take a few days rest from them (and any other medication for that matter). Drinks plenty of water and give my body (kidneys) a chance to recover.

To me this doesn't "seem" like too many, but again, hard to say just how many is too many.

BTW "Hey-Iwas51", I looked up Lodine. Sounds like good stuff but we're stuck with the same question as the muscle relaxers/ibuprofen. What are the long term side effects? And how much is too much? I'm guessing use as much caution as you would with anything previously mentioned.

[pastorgbc]

If I can make a suggestion:

It sounds like you may have a bit of arthritis in your neck. Ask your doctor about sulindac. I suffer from gout, and it is the only thing short of prednisone that will take away the pain and swelling, and it does so in a very timely fashion. I know they use it to treat rheumatoid arthritis and it is effective there as well.

It also does not upset my stomach where ibuprofen and naprocin can.

Ray

[rsw1]

If I can make a suggestion:

It sounds like you may have a bit of arthritis in your neck. Ask your doctor about sulindac. I suffer from gout, and it is the only thing short of prednisone that will take away the pain and swelling, and it does so in a very timely fashion. I know they use it to treat rheumatoid arthritis and it is effective there as well.

It also does not upset my stomach where ibuprofen and naprocin can.

Ray

Thanks Ray. I'll suggest it to my doc next time I'm in.
Yeah, I've mentioned on this board before, I have more than just "mild" arthritis of the neck. I'd say moderate to severe. Nothing genetic, the doctors think it's from years of motorcycle and water skiing wrecks.<<<<<<<(Good lesson for those who still think they're indestructible)

Just have a lot of soreness, easily get headaches, etc. Can't even drink anymore :<(. Mostly feels like I need an industrial strength muscle relaxer or 10-12 Advils when it gets bad.

I check it out though. Thanks again.

[30-A rider]

What is too much. Well to each his own; but considering the study I just read, it said people taking 4 regular strength Tylenol a day after 2 weeks had abnormal liver profiles. Im sure these profiles although abnormal were most likely not significant only 2 weeks in, but I would imagine over prolonged periods of time at that rate (months to years) one could cause some organ damage. Everyone has thier own idea of what is moderate etc. Me, for myself and what I do and recommend for my family, one is too much for me, and should only be used if absolutely necessary. For me, my patients, and family, absolutely necessary means this (with neck for example): If you are stretching the neck 2-4x a day daily!.....and following up with ice for 20 minutes on each stretching session; ...your taking any anti inflammatories in the form of natural products and foods...your sleeping on a good mattress and pillow, ,,,,you have made every attempt at your work and home life to utilize propper posture ergonomics(lumbar pillows, foot rests, keyboard pads ; aware of your posture etc)....If your doing all of these things consistently for months at a time with no benefits and the pain remains to the same degree....Well then all I can say is what is your pain tolerance..... If you cant take it anymore, then I say do what you feel is best for your quality of life. Chances are like most of my patients, you may not be making all of that effort, maybe you are,,,I dont know, only you do. E mail me if you want what I consider to be the best neck stretches and I'll give you directions/description. Finally is using a Chiropractor, find one that uses good techniqes (not instruments but thier hands) this can only help if you utilize it regualrly meaning 1x/every month at least; poreferrably 2-3x a month. A word on that: If you go to a Chiropractor that uses instruments to adjust you then dont go. Chiropractic means to do with hands and is the most effective form of adjustments IMO, and has been proven many times over as well. If you go to a chiropractor that advertises thier servies as "Gentle or Low force chiropractic" Dont go, Find another..... again your not getting your best bang for your buck, and the most effective adjustments. Hope I may have give you a little info or at least some food for thought. Good luck

Great post Rider, and I'm a firm believer in everything you said. I suppose the only remaining questions is, "what is considered overuse?".

As with the muscle relaxers, I only take NSAID's when needed. The problem is that sometimes I "need" them alot (for the same reasons......neck problems). I'll frequently wake up with a headache from sleeping wrong, and take 3-4 Advil liquidgels (my favorite) in the morning. But......this is only about 3-4 days a week. So...... over a 7 day period, that's a max total of 16 a week. Plus, I intentionally take a few days rest from them (and any other medication for that matter). Drinks plenty of water and give my body (kidneys) a chance to recover.

To me this doesn't "seem" like too many, but again, hard to say just how many is too many.

BTW "Hey-Iwas51", I looked up Lodine. Sounds like good stuff but we're stuck with the same question as the muscle relaxers/ibuprofen. What are the long term side effects? And how much is too much? I'm guessing use as much caution as you would with anything previously mentioned.

[ServoScanMan]

Thanks Ray. I'll suggest it to my doc next time I'm in.
Yeah, I've mentioned on this board before, I have more than just "mild" arthritis of the neck. I'd say moderate to severe. Nothing genetic, the doctors think it's from years of motorcycle and water skiing wrecks.<<<<<<<(Good lesson for those who still think they're indestructible)

Just have a lot of soreness, easily get headaches, etc. Can't even drink anymore :<(. Mostly feels like I need an industrial strength muscle relaxer or 10-12 Advils when it gets bad.

I check it out though. Thanks again.

I went to my doctor a few months ago because I had a pain deep in my chest that would go away. Anyway, after the EKGs, blood work, and X-rays the doctor told me I was going to have Arthritis in my back and showed me the X-rays. My mind instantly flashed back to when I was in a car wreck (no head rest and no seat belts) at age 17 and after the wreck my back hurt for 2 weeks. Now, 30 years later I have back problems. The only good thing is the joints are in my neck right above the area where the squat bar goes. I can at least do squats.

I woke up early this morning with back pain. I know a guy at work that had an artifical disk put in his back. He said he is pain free. Right now this is not an option for me because my bad joints are in my neck.

If Turmeric or any other herb helps you please keep us informed.

[FittyFour]

As with the muscle relaxers, I only take NSAID's when needed. The problem is that sometimes I "need" them alot (for the same reasons......neck problems). I'll frequently wake up with a headache from sleeping wrong, and take 3-4 Advil liquidgels (my favorite) in the morning. But......this is only about 3-4 days a week. So...... over a 7 day period, that's a max total of 16 a week. Plus, I intentionally take a few days rest from them (and any other medication for that matter). Drinks plenty of water and give my body (kidneys) a chance to recover.

To me this doesn't "seem" like too many, but again, hard to say just how many is too many.

No one can - or should - argue with anyone who has found a way to alleviate pain. But the chosen solution also speaks to the question regarding drugs (OTC or Rx) - "how many is too many".

I would guess that modern medicine - and even traditional - would use the guideline of the least possible dose to attain relief. By using the smallest dose necessary, you avoid the risk of side effects.

The problems with anything you take for a medicinal effect will usually occur with chronic use. For NSAIDs, those side effects range from gastrointestinal upset to liver and kidney problems.

So if you have a chronic neck problem, for instance, try to find other modalities to relieve the pain. For neck pain, could be a matter of finding mechanical relief in the use of a cervical pillow. Could also be chiropractic treatment or deep tissue massage.

Sometimes it's like the old joke of the guy who visits his doctor, raises his hand over his head and says "hey, doc - it hurts when I do this." And the doctor says, "then don't do that!"

NSAIDs also seem to provide an interesting conundrum. From what I've read, as an acute treatment for injury, they work very well to alleviate pain. But in the long term, they tend to slow down the healing. Again, that doesn't mean you should live with the pain - just that there is a tradeoff you should be aware of and should possibly also be seeking additional avenues of relief.

We take our OTC drugs too lightly and forget that they are exactly that - drugs. And with any drug, you need to view it in terms of reward vs. risk. I'm not happy about being on certain heart drugs but I do want to stick around to meet my grandchildren!

Moral of the story - do what you have to do while keeping your curiosity level high.

And keep exercising - better to wear out than rust out!