something special for those worried about "too much volume" or "1 hour or less"

[John Prophet]

I keep seeing 5 threads a day where people are in mortal fear of going over 1hr in the gym.....as if at precisely the 60 minute mark they will turn into a pumpkin and start shrinking


There is a guy named Brian Siders....powerlifter...one of the very top guys...he also got like 6th in one of the WSM contests.....so it goes without saying that dude is big and strong....what he is doing works


hehe...his approach is a "little different" than most Americans.....but maybe not so different than a Russian approach


anyway, I felt it would be good to post some of his typical workouts.....just for some of you guys who worry so much about turning into a pumpkin after 45 minutes


by the way, I think he uses the Russian notation for sets and reps....so it is "backwards" for us....in other words if he says 10x3 it means 10 reps, 3 sets....but I am not POSITIVE that is what he does....but usually you can look at the ab work and tell....like on his side bends where it says 120x10x3.....pretty sure that means 3 sets of 10...not 10 sets of 3

----------------------------------
Wednesday ( squat and deadlift)

Warm up exercises:

1/ doubled mini triceps ext- 3 sets of 15
2/ light band pull apart- 3 sets of 20
3/ light band good morning- 3 sets of 15
4/ light band leg curl- 3 sets of 15
5/ standing obliques- 3 sets of 20
6/ leg raises-3 sets of 12

Core exercises: wore loose suit, no belt or wraps. All sets done with 2 minutes or less rest, speed squats were less than one minute. Took about a 5 or 6 minute break between each exercise

1/ Speed squats with double choked green bands- 415x2x4, 465x2x4, 485x2x4

(ok, this is definitely all sets of 2 reps....that is how a lot of modern Pl'er do their "speed" work.....2 reps for squats...3 for speed bench...J.P.))

2/ Close stance rounded back GM with double choked green bands- 325x6x6

3/ DL (sumo stance)- 415x5x2, 505x3x2, 575x3x8 <-(8 sets of 3, not 3 sets of 8 J.P.)

4/ Stiff legged dl- 415x6x4

5/ DL (conventional)- 415x3, 505x2, 595x1, 685x1, 735x1

Assistance work-

1/ Straight legged sit ups- 3 sets of 10
2/ Reverse side bends- 120x10x3 each side
3/ Pull throughs- stack x12x3
4/ Green band standing abs- 100 reps


---------


how many hours was that???????


----

now a bench workout..on a different day of course, lol

Bench press (shoulder emphasis)

Warm up exercises:

1/ Standing abs- 3 sets of 20
2/ Light band pull aparts- 3 sets of 20
3/ Doubled mini triceps ext- 3 sets of w20
4/ Light band upright row- 3 sets of 15
5/ Standing rope pulls to chest- 3 sets of 15

Core exercises: (all sets done with 2 minutes or less rest and speed work was done with approx 45 sec res)

1/ Close grip steep inclines- 275x6, 315x6, 365x3x3, 385x3x3, 405x3x2, 405x6

2/ Seated shoulder press- 275x6, 315x6x6

3/ Cambered bar bp- 315x6, 365x6x2, 415x6x2

4/ Speed bench- 365x3x10 (3 sets wide, 3 sets med, and 4 sets close)

Assistace movements:

1/ Leg raises- 3 sets of 15
2/ Standing rope face pulls- 150x15x3
3/ Triceps push downs with triceps strap- 4 sets of 10
4/ Light band triceps ext- 4 sets of 25
5/ Rotator cuff ext- 4 sets of 15


I count 33 sets of core exercises....18 sets of assistance...plus warm ups





---------

now a lat and "assistance" workout

1/ Light band triceps ext- 3 sets of 20
2/ Mini band rear delts- 3 sets of 25
3/ Mini band front raises- 3 sets of 20
4/ Mini band rotator cuff- 3 sets of 15
5/ Standing abs- 3 sets of 25
6/ Hex db grip holds- 40s for 3 sets of 15 seconds
7/ cg face pulls- 220x6x3
8/ wg face pulls- ...
9/ cg lat pulls- ...
10/ wg lat pulls- ...
11/ medium grip palms facing lat pulls- ...
12/ cg palms facing lat pulls- ...
13/ chest supported inclined rows with cambered bar- 225x8x4
14/ barbell curls- 3 sets of 20
15/ side bends- 3 sets of 10
16/ mini band side raises- 3 sets of 24
17/ doubled mini triceps ext- 4 sets of 30


------

another bench workout


Bench press (triceps emphasis) and strongman event training

Warm up exercises-

1/ doubled mini triceps ext- 3 sets of 15
2/ mini band side raises- 3 sets of 15
3/ mini band rotator cuff work- 3 sets of 15
4/ mini band rear delts- 3 sets of 25
5/ standing abs- 180x20x3

Core exercises-

1/ close grip bp- 315x5x2, 365x5, 405x5, 425x5, 455x5, 475x5, 495x5x2
2/ 4 board close grips- 515x6x4
3/ chain bp (med grip 90 lbs of chain)- 315x6, 365x6x4
4/ floor press (med grip)- 315x5, 365x5, 405x5x2, 405x8
5/ Atlas stones- 150x3, 180x3, 216x3, 231x3, 250x2, 279 (lapped it and carried it to the platform and dropped it as it was being placed on the platform) 250x2, 231x1, 216x1 (last 3 sets were done without rest)
6/ Axle clean and press- warm up then 325x6

Asistance exercises-

1/ light band triceps ext- 4 sets of 30
2/ standing rope face pulls- 180x15x3
3/ triceps pushdowns with doubled mini- 120x10x6




I wonder if he takes more than 45 minutes???

someone write him and tell him he is grossly overtraining

[matthor]

that took as long to read as it would to do the actual workout!

im off for some dex/whey

[Shortfuze]

damn! that's some serious workout there! But I agree with the original poster, some people are unecessarily worried about going "over time" but its not time that is important, it is the quality of your workout. As long as you feel you've done a good, solid workout(whether its 3x3, 5x5, HST, Max-OT, GVT etc), and you give yourself enough time to recover, you'll do alright.

[JustLost]

Greeat post, I just wanted to add a pont. That much volume would be murder for the average person -- not because of cortisol, genetics or anyother boohoohoo so much as because they haven't worked up to it.

Just as a person needs to work their squat up from 135 or wherever they start to 500, work capacity needs to be trained. I used to be a firm believer in the 60 minute rule myself, until a couple of years ago when, inspired by some Westside articles on general physical preparedness and some conditioning articles on dragondoor.com, I started training my work capacity. I've been able to drastically increase how much I can do in one workout, even while dieting for fat loss.

[TheCore]

As long as you eat enough and sleep well, you can train longer than an hour...

[JRX]

I agree with you on that one mate.

Gradually increasing the volume is a fantastic way of overload and progression. That workout you see there will have probably taken years in the making.

Training, eating, monitoring, adjusting repeat

treat like a science experiment.

[the iron addict]

Go look at the training logs at Dave Tate's site and you will see many of the top PL'ers in the countries logs. Most of these guys do 4 lifts max per session.

Iron Addict

[John Prophet]

A couple of Russian quotes.....I think they speak volumes about the way volume should be approached (pun intended)


"The First stage is the athletes accommodation to the growing volume and intensity of the loading. The yearly rise in these parameters during this stage contributes to the athlete's improvement. The length of this stage is an average of six years."

"...the rise in results parallels the increasing volume and intensity of the loading in the first years of training. However, with time, when the athlete has achieved the optimum year-volume of loading; it will be best for the further improvement of results, to maintain the year-volume at the optimum level or even reduce the volume, while increasing the intensity."


A.S. Medvedev..."A System of Multi-Year Training in Weightlifting"



so he is saying more or less that they increased volume for at least 6 years....(sometimes up to 10)

after they felt the lifter had reached his optimum volume, the volume more or less stayed the same or even slightly decreased while the intensity gradually increased



so constrast this with the newby started off on HIT or some other low volume/high intensity approach


this was/is a proven method that has won the Russians (and others) many Olympic gold medals through the years......yet todays bodybuilders are afraid to do any volume


IMO, going by the proven Russian methods...a beginner should feel free to build his volume gradually over a period of at LEAST 6 years

[John Prophet]

Go look at the training logs at Dave Tate's site and you will see many of the top PL'ers in the countries logs. Most of these guys do 4 lifts max per session.

Iron Addict

yep, thats the Westside approach....which to me is extremely low volume/hi intensity

I know they are succesfull in what they do....but I personally dont think their approach is ideal....id rather see a high volume period at some point in the year as opposed to maxing every week

Louie Simmons has done a lot for powerlifting and lifting in general...IMO mainly though his referencing the Russian methodology......but once you read the Russian manuals for yourself, as he recommends, you see right away that Louie "picked and chose" what he liked....IMO he left a lot of meat on the bone


or put it this way...how many of them can beat Brian Siders??

[the iron addict]

or put it this way...how many of them can beat Brian Siders??

And this proves? As a whole, the system dominates powerlifting and works for both elite and average trainees. You can quote all the russian studies you like, I have read them myself. In almost all cases they were conducted on elite caliber lifters. If you consider yourself elite awesome. Myself, I train 60 plus training clients at a time and most just don't have elite (or anything close) genetics and a more reasonable approach works best. Who here hasn't done high volume training? Almost everyone tries it and finds out it is far less than optimal. There is a huge gulf between 9 sets and 22 as almost everyone discovers. This board used to be full of volume pimps and the trainees were lost and confused and for the most part not making progress. Now it has moderated a lot towards basic strength training techniques and the lifters are growing. I will take results over a "flashy" pro style routine any day.

Iron Addict

[JustLost]

I'm seeing a false dichotomy here. Arguing about whether high volume or low volume is the best way for everybody is a crock of ****. The original point of the thread (at least as I understood what John Prophet wrote) was that high volume has worked well for some.

So the take home message, from this thread and the 8798 related threads currently going on, seems to be:

1. The "60 minute rule" is a pretty dumb overgeneralization
2. Recovery ability/volume tolerance/work capacity is highly individual, and depends on several variables
2a. ... and can be increased gradually

None of that implies that everybody can or should do high volume workouts, or that a trainee can't make progress using 60 minute workouts.

This is starting to remind me of the late 90s, when people were arguing whether Mentzer's HIT or Joe Weider's 90 bazillion set "blasting" was the best way to train.

[John Prophet]

hehe..marketing has a LOT to with what what system is most popular..but thats another point


and to agree with JustLost...the bickering part is stupid...the false dichotomy etc


I just get sick of people acting like they will turn into pumpkins after 45-60 minutes

and these are guys with less than a year under their belts...and they are THAT worried about overtraining??? what the....?? I mean, most of em dont even put enough stress on themselves to even partially overreach

newbs training a bodypart once per week with 4 sets?? what the??? and STILL worried about overtraining???


and to me, arguing whether high volume "works" or not is uber stupid.....it obviously works for thousands of athletes worldwide...usually the ones who destroy us in the olympics year after year

the main point is that volume NEEDS to be built up "over time".....and I hope id be the LAST one on earth to tell someone to jump straight into arnolds routine or Brian Siders routine.......if I have done that someone please link to it and show me


its kind of funny in a way....I quit posting on PL boards due in part to westside nazi's, lol....I hope this board isnt like that.....unless Louie and his system are perfect they are fair game for critique


afaik Brian Siders has built his volume up over a 12 year period



and IA, again we will have to agree to disagree.....you think elite athletes are born....I think they are made...if you wanna be elite you gotta train accordingly....if you want to go from low intermediate high intermediate you gotta step something up somewhere...the classical approach would seem to be to simply increase volume at least for several years until a nice base is built





---------

"Who here hasn't done high volume training? Almost everyone tries it and finds out it is far less than optimal."



"tries it"


see..that to me sounds like they jumped from 10 sets to 40

if they are that stupid they deserve to fail, lol

[the iron addict]

I am in total agreement that work capacity and volume should go up OVER TIME. You also need to consider the audience here. The VAST majority here are very young and for the most part inexperienced lifters. Telling them to do volume at their stage of the game in an injustice.

I am assuming then that you then must consider yourself a great lifter then since nothing has held you back except your willingness to train and eat properly

Iron Addict

[TheCore]

Strong trees don't grow in mellow times!

[JustLost]

I just get sick of people acting like they will turn into pumpkins after 45-60 minutes

I don't even care about that any more. It's the fact that they insist that everyone else will turn into pumpkins that bugs me. And it's part of a bigger syndrome -- the "N=1 Disease". A lot of people think that since they've figured out (in thier vast experience) what works for them, they know what everyone else should (and shouldn't) do.

[John Prophet]

Telling them to do volume at their stage of the game in an injustice.

well for them "volume" would be going from 10 sets once a week to 8 sets twice a week or something similar

I am assuming then that you then must consider yourself a great lifter then since nothing has held you back except your willingness to train and eat properly

actually you are 100% correct...nothing HAS held me back EXCEPT my (un)willingness to train (consistently for years at a time) and eat properly

my diet has always sucked and it shows, thats why you will rarely see me giving diet advice


and there isnt really anything great about me....unfortunately most of my training has been in vain and my gains have been for the most part extremely average...though the last year has been promising as I learned some REAL training theory (not magazine BS)

let me tell you my story....and you will see where I am coming from

the first time I stepped into a gym I was about 10-12 years old...my mom took me...the dude that ran the gym took one look at me and said "I can see that he has no potential to be big"

so that was my introduction to weightlifting

I did my first real lifting when I was about 15....the standard stuff, bench, curls....I did do plenty of lat stuff etc....just not much legs...hard to remember since that was like 24 years ago...though I do have notebooks from back then, lol

I lifted on and off after I graduated high school and was in the Air Force

I always sort of gravitated to the "hi intensity, low volume" approach.....I thought guys doing 5x5 were stupid (even though they were always bigger and stronger than me)

I got out of the Air Force and did some lifting on and off...I would do stuff like 3 exercises per bodypart, 2 sets each....first set (after warm up) with heaviest weight to failure....second set I would drop the weight a little....on occasion id do drop sets or pre exhaust

yet I never did any volume

to be honest I never really got very far though I did get to about 212lbs at 5'8"ish in about 1993....I had an easy job at the time and was eating plenty and working out regularly though it was low vol.....then I got a different job, had to keep moving almost all day, couldnt train any, and 6 weeks later I was like 175, lol

lifted on and off etc...that brings me to like 2000...from about 2000-2003 I lifted fairly regularly....this was before I ever heard of "volume"....all I had ever heard was "dont overtrain"...."work smart, not long" etc

at the end of 2003 I went from like 235 to 189ish using ephedra and basically just going low calorie...for several months I didnt even lift so I lost a lot of muscle

I got back lifting in about 2004 and have been at it solidly since then....in 2004 I was still doing low vol...."bodypart once per week" stuff....I made some gains, probably cuz I was pigging out, lol....but I had STILL never really focused on squats, basically NEVER deadlifted, and never done more than 3 sets of benches in one workout

so basically to that point I didnt have much to show though I at least did have 17" arms, lol

at the start of 2005 I made a change....at first it was just casual....there was a powerlifter in the gym and I decided that I wasnt happy with my old bench max of 225x2 back in like 1997, lol...so I decided to work on my bench some....I got the powerlifter to spot me once...I had 205 and I couldnt even triple it...he told me "its too heavy for you....drop down lighter and do 5 sets of 5"

so, after YEARS of thinking 5x5 was stupid, the first thing that went thru my head was "man, im not laying on the bench and doing 5 freaking sets of the same movement". And that was how I had always thought.

So I compromised.....I decided to do 3x5....I dont remember what I started with...probably 185...that was like February '05

after about 22-23 years of on off, low volume workouts...I had a all time max bench of 225x2 and that was in 1997....my max squat was probably 305x5....I had deadlifted only once I think...back in like 87 and I did 265, lol

so basically I had nothing to show for my on/off lifting....my "low volume" lifting, lol....even though I had stuck with it for maybe a year at a time on several occasions, I never made many gains

can you say NO GENETICS (yes, no consitency either...but guys with great genetics can do ANY workout for 6 months and get pretty big)


so last year I started the 3x5 on bench....using this routine (which you said sucked in another thread, lol)

Mon -bench 3x5
incline db 2 sets (I think)
back

Tue - legs 3x5 squat (I think)

Wed - delts

thur-off

Fri - arms

STILL fairly low volume with the exception that I dont think id ever actually done 3 sets of an exercise at the same weight

so on bench I went from like 185 for 3x5 to 245 for 3x5 in a couple months.....so I had went from an old max of 225x2 eight years earlier to 3x5@245 in a couple months...crappy genetics on 37 year old hormone levels

so I was getting enthused and decided to try a few maxes..I got 275 which thrilled me to no end. a few months earlier when I started gaining a little on the 3x5 I started thinking about goals.....I HOPED I could get 275 "eventually", like in 6 months........315 crossed my mind but I laughed it off....I had as much chance to get 315 as I did to go to the moon

so I got the 275...a couple weeks later I got 290....WOW almost 300!!

that was at the end of april.

during this time I had started studying more...I ran across "westside". I was taken in immediately....I thought it sounded like the greatest thing ever

how'd it turn out for me?? I got strong on assistance stuff but my bench stalled cold for 4 month....that was after gaining every week for like 3 months

in Sept I did a bench meet and got only 275 paused ( I had never done a pause until the meet, lol)....so westside got me...nothing on bench.....my squat was 365 I think

so I was somewhat disgusted and discouraged...so the Monday after the meet I started on a Sheiko high vol program

I had started reading the Russian manual by Verkhoshanksy.."Programming and Organization of training"....it was all about "concentrated volume" etc....I liked the sound of it but didnt know how to implement it...then I ran across the Sheiko routines on this site http://www.butenko.org/workout.htm

the light went on in my head...I said "ahh, this is the Russian methodology in a practical PL routine"


so here I was, pitiful genetics, 38 years old....coming off of 4 stalled months were I got crushed by 300lbs on bench 3 or 4 different times

So I started the Sheiko on Sept 12th...my maxes were bench 275 paused (stuck for 4 months), squat 365, dead 405

I did 3 weeks of high volume, then a deload week almost all the way off, then one measly week of "peaking"....then an easy workout monday and came in to test my bench on Firday

I would have been happy to just finally break 300....instead I got 315 paused

40lb gain in 5 weeks using high volume....lifetime natural..after being stuck for 4 months

40lb gain on bench and only ONE rep to failure that whole time...and that was the last rep on the first day (see where my views on failure come from?)


so how did a guy with the same genetics go from gaining good for 3 months....to NOT gaining for 4 months...to then gaining 40 lbs on bench in 5 weeks? genetics is one factor but it aint everything

I gained more in the last year that I did in the previous 20-some....did my genetics get better all of a sudden??

I did another sheiko cycle directly after wards...which probably wasnt ideal..I probably should have done average volume for 4-6 weeks or so

at the end of that cycle here were my best lifts

bench 322.5 paused
squat 425
dead 445

in PL meets my best was Bench 310, squat 425, dead 435 (easy)....so those r legit lifts, not gym BS


so that was my little powerlifting kick

now I have switched back to BB'ing....I am intending on transferring the knowledge from the Russian manuals to bodybuilding....I am hoping to make the same gains in mass that I made in strength using high vol

in actuality it isnt just "high vol"....it is all about pushing yourself logically using varying volume and intensity....and that is whre 99% of people go wrong...they just increase EVERYTHING like 500% at once...they do high volume AND hi intensity at the same time


anyway, to give myself a rest and learn to work thru the burn etc again I just finished like 6 weeks of an each bodypart once per week bb routine....it has been fun....but now it is time to get more systematic and apply the Russian ideas

I will be starting my high vol phase tonight

I guess since I am posting on here regularly now I might keep a log



I have seen hundreds of different lifters through the years in several gyms

one of the MAIN themes I have seen is young guys doing JUST what I did.....they read an article and then they have one thought on their mind ..."a muscle needs 5-6 days to recover"...and "dont overtrain"

so they do low vol, SUPER high intensity (or so they think).....they yell, scream, turn red...they talk about how sore they get..."dude, that workout wasted me".....the only thing they dont do much of is grow

I see the same things now that I saw...that I DID myself 15-20 years ago

what I DONT see much of is people doing 5 hard sets of squats or even 5 hard sets of bench

I see 'em pyramiding up on bench.....yet they dont ever seem to get over 225

then they go get 5 pairs of dumbells and do this months "super high intensity bicep blaster drop set routine!!!"

I dont see em deadlifting, I dont see em doing much heavy OH barbell pressing......instead they are all about Arnold presses, preacher curls etc


anyway, that is "my story"......it should be apparant now where some of my views come from

[John Prophet]

I don't even care about that any more. It's the fact that they insist that everyone else will turn into pumpkins that bugs me. And it's part of a bigger syndrome -- the "N=1 Disease". A lot of people think that since they've figured out (in thier vast experience) what works for them, they know what everyone else should (and shouldn't) do.

I agree..and maybe I am a little guilty....but I do it in reaction to the whole 'oh my god, im overtraining, Ill cut it down to 3 sets' crowd

what, like 95% of all champs...plus almost all athletes in general use a pretty large volume????

yet people question volume????? I guess I dont get it except to say that Americans in general tend toward trying to find a shortcut


what does HIT REALLY have to show for it???? a couple champs??

they say "natural guys cant do volume".....yet almost everyone I have seen stalled with 14" arms is using some version of low vol/hi intensity, lol

[VikingMan]

what, like 95% of all champs...plus almost all athletes in general use a pretty large volume????

Using modern drug enhanced "champs" is hardly helping you make a case for volume training.

what does HIT REALLY have to show for it???? a couple champs??

But neither would I say HIT is worth much, though I know some guys make gains on it.

they say "natural guys cant do volume".....yet almost everyone I have seen stalled with 14" arms is using some version of low vol/hi intensity, lol

Low Vol, hi intensity, and workouts consisting of barbell bench presses, and every kind of curl under the sun.

Most guys stalled at 14 inch arms are stalled because they never trained or ate properly to begin with, volume or otherwise.

Volume is a very individual thing, IMO. Some guys, who have a high work capacity and GPP, would do quite well on higher volume programs. Other guys, who don't have very good GPP (think, middle age overweight desk jockeys) would probably drown if you threw them into a high volume program.

A great example is Hola Bola, in the journal section. He's in the army, I believe, and has to run all the time. Running might not be all that great for muscle mass gains, but it did wonders for his Physical Preparedness. As a result of that, and his kick ass eating habits, he can handle an amount of volume that I would choke on. So a fairly high volume program, and absolutely kick ass strength combines in him for one of the best physiques on this whole site. Me? I'm a programmer and sit on my ass all day. Now, I'm a fairly strong guy, and I'm certainly working on my GPP. So, over time, I hope to be able to increase the amount of volume I can handle in my training.

You can't just carte blanche say that volume training is the way to go, because that takes absolutely nothing into consideration about individual trainees, and their capacity for work.

Train with the volume that you can realistically recover from.

[JustLost]

Train with the volume that you can realistically recover from.

What a concept!

[the iron addict]

Train with the volume that you can realistically recover from.

THAT is the key to progress!

Iron Addict

[John Prophet]

ok, lol

I give up

I am obviously not able to communicate because I cant get across the fact that volume is just one factor that needs to be built up

everyone KEEPS saying "if you THROW someone into high volume" blah blah blah.....yet only an idiot would do that...so I guess I am taken for an idiot



whatever happened to pushing yourself?

the volume Brian Siders trains with....do you think he could ALWAYS realistically recover from that???????? of COURSE he couldnt

but its like saying "bench a weight you can comfortably bench"....yeah THATS gonna be a long term solution

anyway, just trying to contribute to the board

maybe Ill save the keystrokes next time because obviously im not communicating properly

[Khryz]

Key word there is "realistically." Most people don't want to believe they can't recover from a specific routine because as long as they can physically do the work they think they're fine. It's really as simple as adding weight/reps to the bar each week. If you don't, you're didn't recover enough. So you must either look at your diet intake for the week, your outside activities, any possible stressors, or it might just be the routine and adjust accordingly. That is why logging your workouts, or even keeping a workout day-to-day journal is a great idea for long-term progress.

[VikingMan]

whatever happened to pushing yourself?

I don't think anyone is making a case for being a pansy in the gym. When you’re going to go lift, bring it, or go home. And one aspect of improving as a lifter certainly is increasing your tolerance for workload. That definitely needs to be an aspect of training that requires attention.

When I said "realistically" recover from, I'm not saying to do 2 working sets then go home. I mean, for me, 15 working sets on my lower ME day in my current Westside program is probably going to bury me, so I, knowing myself, will not do that much volume. Not to say I'm going to do 1 set to failure or anything like that.

All I'm saying is that volume needs to be tailored to the individual trainee and their tolerance to it, while maintaining the long term perspective that volume should slowly increase over time.

[TheCore]

The point is to build it the volume up first in a period of 6 years, that';s what lostprophet is trying to say...

It doesn't mean the volume should be very high, it should be adjusted to your own recovery ability, that's why the building up of the volume is over 6 years! It should be done SLOWLY over time...

This will also aloow your body to adapt to the increase in volume over time...

[John Prophet]

but for people to say "dont strive to add volume"....why dont they just say "dont strive to add weight to the bar"....."dont strive to add reps"....?


it is a settled fact, for the Russians anyway, that volume needs to steadily grow over time...they go in a cycle....

1) build volume up to certain level using a certain intensity

2) drop the volume slightly while increasing the intensity

3) win a competition

4) increase the volume again to slightly above where it was in step 1 drop intensity back again

5) drop volume slightly, increase intensity

6) win a competition with a higher level performance than in step 3



then at the end of the year they take some time off....they then back off the volume and start again, but they do start at a little higher volume than they started the year before

with that method they make continual progress and they have a proven track record...and I would guess that most euro athletes use a similar method


thats a CYCLE, like all things in nature go though, lol



but to hold volume steady yet still attempt to continually eek out strength gains??? hmm, isnt that like trying to keep building a taller building without making the base any wider?



like others have said....only in bodybuilding

[TheCore]

I agree on the part of building up, peak, build off!!!

A lot of people are only focused on training as intens as possible all the time or what not, it never comes to mind to build off, try to overreach then build of! This can be done over a period of weeks, months and years...

[John Prophet]

I agree on the part of building up, peak, build off!!!

A lot of people are only focused on training as intens as possible all the time or what not, it never comes to mind to build off, try to overreach then build of! This can be done over a period of weeks, months and years...

The point is to build it the volume up first in a period of 6 years, that';s what lostprophet is trying to say...

It doesn't mean the volume should be very high, it should be adjusted to your own recovery ability, that's why the building up of the volume is over 6 years! It should be done SLOWLY over time...

This will also allow your body to adapt to the increase in volume over time...

thank you, and thank you.....that is exactly what I am trying to say


I am just trying to raise the level of understanding on this board a little bit.....we have WAY too many people afraid to freaking work....or rather they try to contnually maximize ONE aspect (intensity) while casually dismissing another aspect (work base/volume)

seriously...people need to expand their horizons a bit beyond what the latest muscle magazine says...there is serious research available from overseas that, even though it is 20-30 years old, is still light years ahead of what is in bodybuilding at this time

in the end it is just periodization, which some call "cycling"...part of that cycle though is that you dont repeat what you do , month after month, year after year


but you are 100% correct....most just want to hit the gym, nail the throttle and go...all year long....I guess the race car comparison would be that eventually you blow the engine that way..or overshoot a corner

[Khryz]

Doing 20 sets a bodypart doesn't only clarify as "pushing yourself." Doing DC and doing 1 ball-busting set to absolute failure is another way to "push yourself".

I think everyone's overcomplicating things here. IMO, consistent and sustainable poundage increases should be the base of every program (whether size or strength), unless of course you have lots of strength and can devote yourself to a more size oriented routine. As long as weight increases on a week to week basis, or as consistently as possible (won't be linear for long), you can gradually add volume to your routine SO LONG AS YOU ARE STILL RECOVERING AND ADDING WEIGHT AS OFTEN AS POSSIBLE!