what exactly is 6 bromo

[Phat Daddy]

... Give me the data beyond personal experience ( which is never enough) and you have my support, otherwise, prove something to us.

Don't be so confident in an FDA endorsement. Just because a company has taken the years required to pay off the FDA and get a product to market, does not make it "safe and effective". Many products are recalled later or pulled from the market years later. 6-Bromo is basically just an improved version of it's crappy predecessor 6-Oxo. It is only one atom away from the natural human substrate for aromatase. It does not get much more "natural" than that! It is quite safe to say that 6-Bromo can be reasonably expected to be safe, effective and non-toxic in humans, and yes personal experience is the bottom line here. It tells you far more than any studies can because you don't ever really know for sure until you try it for yourself. I did. I took the initial risk, so that's as responsible as I can be about all of this to you guys. If you do not like the small risk it may carry, then just don't use it. In fact, by your line of reasoning, don't use much of anything out there!

[Viado]

Don't be so confident in an FDA endorsement. Just because a company has taken the years required to pay off the FDA and get a product to market, does not make it "safe and effective". Many products are recalled later or pulled from the market years later. 6-Bromo is basically just an improved version of it's crappy predecessor 6-Oxo. It is only one atom away from the natural human substrate for aromatase. It does not get much more "natural" than that! It is quite safe to say that 6-Bromo can be reasonably expected to be safe, effective and non-toxic in humans, and yes personal experience is the bottom line here. It tells you far more than any studies can because you don't ever really know for sure until you try it for yourself. I did. I took the initial risk, so that's as responsible as I can be about all of this to you guys. If you do not like the small risk it may carry, then just don't use it. In fact, by your line of reasoning, don't use much of anything out there!

Woah there. You know something - all the testing that is done on an FDA proven agent while STILL having some squeak by actually REENFORCE my argument! That means that even though a number of compounds are subject to such rigorous testing, there are a very small percentage that make it through. So you want to tell us that a product, never tested, solely on personal experiences merits the consumer's blessing and is worthy of being deemd as "SAFE"?

One atom differences can confer tremendous changes in the biological activities of a compound. Do you knwo its metabolites? How do you know that the aromatase that is inhibited is not permanently bound and get's stuck in a lysosome in a precipitate a al asbestos, malignancy follows...? Can you tell us its metabolites? What is to stop the body from upregulating the presence of aromatase in the cells? How about it's activity after it is ingested orally and subject to a slew of enzymatic reactions prior to reaching its destination? Can it survive in the acidic pH of the stomach WITHOUT losing it's NEW covalently bound atom (which is it, the Br?).

Personal experience means crap here, especially if it comes from someone who is affiliated with a company that sells it. Got bias? Data can be spun in ways to suit your marketing needs. How can you say:"It is quite safe to say that 6-Bromo can be reasonably expected to be safe, effective and non-toxic in humans, and yes personal experience is the bottom line here." - you are simply asking the consumer to "trust you", what reasoning are you using, data cannot even be provided, studies cannot even be referenced directly yet our trust and safety is granted. You must be kidding. Company bosses, if witnessing this must be wondering why such a meager argument posed and little given to substantaite the "claims" which is JUST what they are...nothing more, nothing less.

[Phat Daddy]

... you are simply asking the consumer to "trust you"

No, I'm not asking for anybody's trust and I didn't tell anyone to use it! I really don't care regardless of my affiliations. However, you will be hard pressed to find many people with a negative opinion of the products I've formulated or protocols I recommend. I already told you, I only got involved now because you clearly made it personal. What I did say was use it, or not. The choice is yours. Your points still have no direction. You have not offered anything that people didn't already realize. There aren't many studies and the data is scarce right now. So what's you point again? It's a personal choice. You've decided you won't try it. I understand that's your personal choice and respect that. Do not use it is my suggestion to you. It can just be your loss when it turns out to be fine and you missed out on it, or your gain when the rest of us all suddenly die (then you can make an argument). Until then, your contribution is pointless as only time will tell. No guts, no glory I say. I'm statistically satisfied with the risk myself, but then again I'm far more experienced and familiar with this than you it seems. People know all of this and have still elected to use the product with excellent results and no overt or latent problems so far. It's been in testing going on 2 years now. Just rave reviews is all I see, and yes, many endos are endorsing it according to our beta testers and their blookwork values. Their docs wanted some too! The metabolites are those that would be expected (if you've really studied I don't have to tell you) plus it should be excreted unchanged to an extent, and it can't upregulate aromatase. If you had really studied this class of compound you would already know these things, that's why I say you're just one of those "fearies" with a personal agenda. Also, please don't put words in my mouth any more. I'm saying make your own choice with your own life. Everyone else will decide the choice they make for their life and that's how it goes my friend.

[Androgenic]

No one here has any specific vendetta or ill will towards one company or another. As far as I know, there is multiple companies that carry this compound and I am sure since this company already has established a relationship with DS, AX, and Custom Nutr. Ware. that the latter will be soon to pick it up in it's isolated form.

http://www.made-in-china.com/trade-o...oscin-95-.html

I thought Viado was making a good point with:

"You know something - all the testing that is done on an FDA proven agent while STILL having some squeak by actually REINFORCE my argument! That means that even though a number of compounds are subject to such rigorous testing, there are a very small percentage that make it through. So you want to tell us that a product, never tested, solely on personal experiences merits the consumer's blessing and is worthy of being deemed as "SAFE"?"

That said I never had any differences with your work, the company's accomplishments or even the reps. I made a point with Uhockey earlier in this thread, but it was not intended to be inflammatory, he's a good guy and I like his reviews often...I just found difference with a statement and I have reservations with this compound and the overuse of AI's in general. Consumers need more sides...we often get one side which is so slanted towards marketing (which you have nothing to do with and you admit there is some distortion of truth or what's best in). I truly enjoy Robboe, he's a funny guy who is quite creative and contributes often on the MAN board. Let's not turn something in to something personal because there is a personal stake in it. You've brought up valid points Dr. D and they are worth consideration...I am glad you posted your thoughts and gave people your side. This all ultimately benefits the consumer...which is really all of us.

[whitedevil74]

No one here has any specific vendetta or ill will towards one company or another. As far as I know, there is multiple companies that carry this compound and I am sure since this company already has established a relationship with DS, AX, and Custom Nutr. Ware. that the latter will be soon to pick it up in it's isolated form.

http://www.made-in-china.com/trade-o...oscin-95-.html

I thought Viado was making a good point with:

"You know something - all the testing that is done on an FDA proven agent while STILL having some squeak by actually REINFORCE my argument! That means that even though a number of compounds are subject to such rigorous testing, there are a very small percentage that make it through. So you want to tell us that a product, never tested, solely on personal experiences merits the consumer's blessing and is worthy of being deemed as "SAFE"?"

That said I never had any differences with your work, the company's accomplishments or even the reps. I made a point with Uhockey earlier in this thread, but it was not intended to be inflammatory, he's a good guy and I like his reviews often...I just found difference with a statement and I have reservations with this compound and the overuse of AI's in general. Consumers need more sides...we often get one side which is so slanted towards marketing (which you have nothing to do with and you admit there is some distortion of truth or what's best in). I truly enjoy Robboe, he's a funny guy who is quite creative and contributes often on the MAN board. Let's not turn something in to something personal because there is a personal stake in it. You've brought up valid points Dr. D and they are worth consideration...I am glad you posted your thoughts and gave people your side. This all ultimately benefits the consumer...which is really all of us.

Great post. Discussing safety of a product benefits all of us and only increases our knowledge. What is the problem with a potential cusotmer challenging the safety of a product. To me that is a responsible consumer. If your product is safe, tell us why, provide what information you have, and then let us the consumer make an informed decision. Everyone is better off this way. I was very wary of X-FActor initially but the guys from Molecular Nutrition convinced me of its safety. That is what a good company does.

[Androgenic]

Great post. Discussing safety of a product benefits all of us and only increases our knowledge. What is the problem with a potential cusotmer challenging the safety of a product. To me that is a responsible consumer. If your product is safe, tell us why, provide what information you have, and then let us the consumer make an informed decision. Everyone is better off this way. I was very wary of X-FActor initially but the guys from Molecular Nutrition convinced me of its safety. That is what a good company does.

I too had my reservations, and still do to some degree about x-factor. I debated some points with Bill, maybe even some would construe as...heated. I enjoyed learning and probing his mind. We both ended up repping each other. I met him at the Arnold and he signed a copy of the Encyclopedia, which I referenced in this thread. I use it often, it's a great resource. I respect Bill and his company, and he has some very intelligent, good-spirited reps that have some of the best posts on the board (often not about MN's product (s)). So I find that example as a very poignant one for me. We threw studies back and forth to each other and we both probably gained insight and all reading probably did as well. This is the nature of science, theory, research and learning.

[PieEyedPiper]

I've read through this thread, and maybe I'm blind..

But could someone please outline for me what the risk of using 6-Bromo, 6-BrAd or whatever else you want to call it, is?

[pu12en12g]

6-Bromo is basically just an improved version of it's crappy predecessor 6-Oxo.

::::grabs popcorn::::

[JLT]

I've read through this thread, and maybe I'm blind..

But could someone please outline for me what the risk of using 6-Bromo, 6-BrAd or whatever else you want to call it, is?

Well that is what this whole thread is about, nobody knows the risks. There aren't really and studies pointing one way or another so for right now there could be risks or there maybe none at all. Nobody knows, at least no one has posted decent sources one way or another. That is just what I have gathered, I could be wrong.

[Viado]

Well that is what this whole thread is about, nobody knows the risks. There aren't really and studies pointing one way or another so for right now there could be risks or there maybe none at all. Nobody knows, at least no one has posted decent sources one way or another. That is just what I have gathered, I could be wrong.

You are absolutely correct. It would be nice if a simple piece of evidence were presented, even if it were in vitro tox studies, even feeding the stuff to mice for 4-12 weeks and letting us know what happens would be sweet. Shoot, if it kills a mouse, i wouldn't touch it. if the mouse turns into a rat, I may however consider it ;-)

[Phat Daddy]

::::grabs popcorn::::

Haha... let's not start any drama here my man! Though I have never used 6-Oxo personally, I have usually heard great feedback from others about it's PCT applications. Of course, I also hear it takes about 600mg/d to do the job, and 6-Br would do the same job in, well, let's just say single digit doses. I just meant it was much superior as far as intrinsic potency. It also seems to have the greatest positive effect on libido based on the current feedback and raises test levels a notch higher than other AI's normally report to in many of our testers. Plus lipids are favorably affected at the same time. I can only vouch for the bloodwork that SS and I did on lipids, though I have not seen all the numbers from our beta testers besides test levels, but it looked really good. I do get nervous trying something new, but after all the trials and nice bloodwork results, I was totally comfortable using 6-Br and it is actually my new AI of choice now. SS did LH and FSH values too and they were actually raised by a factor of 8x and 12x respectfully or something insane like that. Of course they were somewhat low on his baseline from years of juicing and bad PCTs, but he was amazed (I can still hear him on the phone telling me his numbers) because nothing else had been able to boost them in 2 years he said. No SERM or other AI he had tried.

[pu12en12g]

I can only vouch for the bloodwork that SS and I did on lipids, though I have not seen all the numbers from our beta testers besides test levels, but it looked really good.

SS as in SuperSoldier ?

[Joel]

Grow up Martel

[Phat Daddy]

SS as in SuperSoldier ?

Yep. God bless him. He's always willing to try what I send him and run labs! Besides me, he is the guy that has guinea pigged all this recent new stuff so that I could feel confident enough to move 6-Br into beta testing and then ultimately made available to you guys with at least some (~6 months) clinical track record to justify it's safety and effectiveness. We did many months of testing (like Nov-Feb) to ensure there would be no funky surprise lab results. That's why I am defending it so hard. I have a good "feel" for it and it's potential toxicity at this point and I'm rarely wrong about this kinda stuff (or I'd probably be dead by now, lol). I've got research, months of labs and results enough to feel OK about 6-Br. If you like 6-Br, you owe SS some gratitude for helping me characterize it's effects so quickly, and it had to be quick because AX had already cloned a cheap version of this before we had even released it!

[Kohen_Gadol]

Haha... let's not start any drama here my man! Though I have never used 6-Oxo personally, I have usually heard great feedback from others about it's PCT applications. Of course, I also hear it takes about 600mg/d to do the job, and 6-Br would do the same job in, well, let's just say single digit doses..

No offense but assuming we believe you, and there is published data
regarding 6-OXO's effects, how would this make 6-brom superior to
say...the exemestane analog found in LG's product or even Novedex.

Whether there is 5mg or 50mg or 500mg in a capsule - you still have to
take that one cap. I do not "get" it. I bet 1mg of anastrazole is more
potent than "single digit" amounts of 6-brom but again, a pill is a pill is
a pill...

I just meant it was much superior as far as intrinsic potency.

Irrelevant - maybe makes a nice marketing pitch though

It also seems to have the greatest positive effect on libido based on the current feedback and raises test levels a notch higher than other AI's normally report to in many of our testers.

Heresay. Anecdotally, Novedex XT seems to cause a 1/2"-1" increase
in cock length and a 1/4" increase in cock diameter after a month's use.
That is what "our testers" report anyhow. You believe me right? It's
not like I work for the company and would never embellish or demonstrate
a bias in a direction to sell more product, right?

Plus lipids are favorably affected at the same time. I can only vouch for the bloodwork that SS and I did on lipids, though I have not seen all the numbers from our beta testers besides test levels, but it looked really good..

The infamous "escape clause - fine print" - offer expires at midnight and
only valid while supplies last, right? No more than 3 per customer?

I do get nervous trying something new, but after all the trials and nice bloodwork results, I was totally comfortable using 6-Br and it is actually my new AI of choice now..

I do not see how it could be anything BUT your AI of choice. You sell it! It
would look really bad if you came out here and said 6-OXO, Formadrol or
Novedex XT was your AI of choice since DS does not sell the ingredients
in any of those. How could RR be *ANYTHING* but your AI of choice
in a public forum?

but he was amazed (I can still hear him on the phone telling me his numbers) because nothing else had been able to boost them in 2 years he said. No SERM or other AI he had tried.

I know you are smarter than this last line and I know you're banking on other
people NOT being smart enough to pick this up.

How many other SERMs/AIs did he try? Zero?

You're a very smart guy - a little but of a maverick - but I dig it.

Most of your posts that incorporate science are spot on and pretty solid.

Leave the marketing to TP and Robboe though. Know your role, brother!


BK

[Androgenic]

I find the comparison to SERMs irrelevant, it's apples and oranges. Tissue specific, without the hormonal cascade and a number of the downside that chronic or even short-term use may cause in the body elsewhere. SERMs are much further "evolved" than AIs and would quite obviously not produce the same "numbers" endogenously at the blood level as an AI, that's the point really. A tissue assay that the SERM is targeted for vs. an AI's use at the same tissue (e.g. breast tissue), would show markedly different results. This is the reason SERMs were developed...there are side effects to AIs. The more potent the AI, the more potential side effects. Period.

[Kohen_Gadol]

No one here has any specific vendetta or ill will towards one company or another. As far as I know, there is multiple companies that carry this compound and I am sure since this company already has established a relationship with DS, AX, and Custom Nutr. Ware. that the latter will be soon to pick it up in it's isolated form.

http://www.made-in-china.com/trade-o...oscin-95-.html

I thought Viado was making a good point with:

"You know something - all the testing that is done on an FDA proven agent while STILL having some squeak by actually REINFORCE my argument! That means that even though a number of compounds are subject to such rigorous testing, there are a very small percentage that make it through. So you want to tell us that a product, never tested, solely on personal experiences merits the consumer's blessing and is worthy of being deemed as "SAFE"?"

That said I never had any differences with your work, the company's accomplishments or even the reps. I made a point with Uhockey earlier in this thread, but it was not intended to be inflammatory, he's a good guy and I like his reviews often...I just found difference with a statement and I have reservations with this compound and the overuse of AI's in general. Consumers need more sides...we often get one side which is so slanted towards marketing (which you have nothing to do with and you admit there is some distortion of truth or what's best in). I truly enjoy Robboe, he's a funny guy who is quite creative and contributes often on the MAN board. Let's not turn something in to something personal because there is a personal stake in it. You've brought up valid points Dr. D and they are worth consideration...I am glad you posted your thoughts and gave people your side. This all ultimately benefits the consumer...which is really all of us.

Reps to you. Good post.

BK

[Kohen_Gadol]

The more potent the AI, the more potential side effects. Period.

Of course you meant to factor in dosing. I know what you mean but others
might not "get it" here. I agree with that.

But lets say AI1 is 5X more potent than AI2.

If I ingest 10X AI2 because that is how it is packaged or the manufacturer
suggests it, it is probably going to cause me more "issues" than if I ingested
1X AI1.

Not being picky - just trying to make it clear to everyone.

Potency is not the "end all - be all" as to whether something works or does not.

BK

[Kohen_Gadol]

I find the comparison to SERMs irrelevant, it's apples and oranges. Tissue specific, without the hormonal cascade and a number of the downside that chronic or even short-term use may cause in the body elsewhere. SERMs are much further "evolved" than AIs and would quite obviously not produce the same "numbers" endogenously at the blood level as an AI, that's the point really. A tissue assay that the SERM is targeted for vs. an AI's use at the same tissue (e.g. breast tissue), would show markedly different results. This is the reason SERMs were developed...there are side effects to AIs. The more potent the AI, the more potential side effects. Period.

A good SERM has a much more limited role therapeutically (outside this
industry) than an AI. A good SERM might not be enough to save a
woman's breast or life. Whereas a good AI or even an "OK" AI might be.

Ideally, they are used together.

There is a lot more data on long term SERM use (raloxifene and tamoxifene)
than AI use, that is for sure. But there is a lot of long term data on AI use
still that we should not abandon or ignore.

AI's can be perfectly safe if used for short periods of time - I would
not want to use one for more than 30-42 days without a good break
to get back to baseline.

You can't "live on an AI" for a year (or you should not unless you have
breast cancer that is E2 dependant and a oncologist told you to).

I'm not sure I'd want to do a SERM for a year either but if I had to pick
one or the other...I'd prefer something like clomiphene over exemestane.

BK

[Androgenic]

That's exactly what I meant and good clarification.

[Kohen_Gadol]

No one here has any specific vendetta or ill will towards one company or another. As far as I know, there is multiple companies that carry this compound and I am sure since this company already has established a relationship with DS, AX, and Custom Nutr. Ware. that the latter will be soon to pick it up in it's isolated form.

http://www.made-in-china.com/trade-o...oscin-95-.html

/

6-bromo is now on just about every Chinese and Indian raw material
suppliers list I get.

This one company (Peony) repped by some dude named 'Spring Chen' sends me an e-mail everyday asking if I want to buy it.

I agree it will be commoditized soon, much to DS's chagrin (and perhaps
rightfully so).

BK

[Androgenic]

That's all true at present, and illustrated below, but I do see SERM research that shows a level of efficacy that will continue to evolve and is hotly researched with much, much promise. Further, it will yield a whole new way for bodybuilders (wealthy pros that is) to yield more specific results.

J Steroid Biochem Mol Biol. 2001 Dec;79(1-5):227-37. Related Articles, Links


Where do selective estrogen receptor modulators (SERMs) and aromatase inhibitors (AIs) now fit into breast cancer treatment algorithms?

Howell A, Howell SJ, Clarke R, Anderson E.

CRC Department of Medical Oncology, Christie Hospital NHS Trust, M20 4BX, Manchester, UK. maria.parker@christie-tr.nwest.nhs.uk

The agents used for endocrine therapy in patients with breast cancer have changed markedly over the past decade. Tamoxifen remains the anti-oestrogen of choice, but could be replaced by the oestrogen receptor down-regulator ICI 182780 or by the fixed ring triphenylethylene arzoxifene (previously SERM III) soon. Whilst aminoglutethimide and 4-OH androstenedione were the aromatase inhibitors of choice, they have been replaced by non-steroidal (anastrozole and letrozole) and steroidal (exemestane) inhibitors of high potency and low side effect profile. Previously, often used treatments such as progestogens (megestrol acetate and medroxyprogesterone acetate) and androgens are now rarely used or confined to fourth or fifth line treatments. The LHRH agonist, goserelin, remains the treatment of choice for pre-menopausal patients with advanced breast cancer although recent randomised trials indicate a response, time to progression and survival advantage for the combination of goserelin and tamoxifen compared with goserelin alone.The newer treatments have led to questions concerning the optimum sequence of agents to use in advanced breast cancer and as neo-adjuvant and adjuvant therapy in relation to surgery. Two trials of anastrozole compared with tamoxifen and one trial of letrozole compared with tamoxifen indicate that the new triazole aromatase inhibitors have a significant advantage over the anti-oestrogen with respect to time to progression and survival. Similarly, triazole aromatase inhibitors give faster and more complete responses compared with tamoxifen when used in post-menopausal women before surgery.Major research questions remain with respect to the aromatase inhibitors used as adjuvant therapy. Anastrozole is being tested alone or in combination with tamoxifen compared with tamoxifen in the 'so-called' ATAC trial. Over 9000 patients have been randomised to this important study: the results will be available late-2001. A similar study comparing letrozole and tamoxifen started recently under the auspices of the Breast International Group. Importantly, this trial is also comparing the sequence of tamoxifen followed by letrozole (or vice versa). A similar trial of exemestane given after 2-3 years of tamoxifen compared with 5 years of tamoxifen is recruiting well as is a study comparing letrozole (or placebo) for 5 years after 5 years of adjuvant tamoxifen. These studies may show that aromatase inhibitors are superior to tamoxifen or that a sequence is preferable.ICI 182780 causes complete oestrogen receptor down-regulation leading to a the lack of agonist activity of the drug. Two trials of ICI 182780 compared with anastrozole for advanced disease will report later this year and a comparison with tamoxifen next year. Arzoxifene (SERM III) is being tested against tamoxifen. These studies are likely to result in new anti-oestrogens being introduced into the clinic.Most of our endocrine treatments deprived the tumour cell of oestradiol. In vitro experiments with MCF-7 cells indicate that tumour cells can adapt and then grow in response to low oestrogen concentrations in the tissue--culture medium. Importantly, the cells were shown to apoptose in response to high oestrogen concentrations. A recent clinical trial has demonstrated a high response rate to stilboestrol given after a median of four previous oestrogen depriving endocrine therapies. These data and the newer treatments available indicate a need to re-think our general approach to endocrine therapy and endocrine prevention.

[Phat Daddy]

No offense but assuming we believe you, and there is published data
regarding 6-OXO's effects, how would this make 6-brom superior to
say...the exemestane analog found in LG's product or even Novedex.

Whether there is 5mg or 50mg or 500mg in a capsule - you still have to
take that one cap. I do not "get" it. I bet 1mg of anastrazole is more
potent than "single digit" amounts of 6-brom but again, a pill is a pill is
a pill...

B, you need to know your role and be more careful with me. I may not have much info to offer in this case, but I have admitted that and told you what I do know. No spin, no pitch. Hell, I'm not even employed by DS, I just do independent contracting for them. I'm not going to starve if 6-Br doesn't sell and have developed a rep from offering the true and being right on. Why risk that to sell a new product? I'm not a pitcher anyway and everyone knows it. I have spoken the truth in every word above whether you choose to believe me or not. Also, a pill is not a pill and you know it. From now on, keep it real B.

[Kohen_Gadol]

B, you need to know your role and be more careful with me. I may not have much info to offer in this case, but I have admitted that and told you what I do know. No spin, no pitch. Hell, I'm not even employed by DS, I just do independent contracting for them. I'm not going to starve if 6-Br doesn't sell and have developed a rep from offering the true and being right on. Why risk that to sell a new product? I'm not a pitcher anyway and everyone knows it. I have spoken the truth in every word above whether you choose to believe me or not. Also, a pill is not a pill and you know it. From now on, keep it real B.

Uhm..I am "keeping it real" buddy. Pat and I do not get along (this is not
news) but I think your reference to the "crappy 6-OXO product" was
not cool (keepin' it real) and you're the one who needs to check himself.

You "pitched' the idea of 6-Br to DS? It's not a money thing, it could be
an ego thing too. I'm not employed by Gaspari or anyone - I am a
1099'er too. But I do like it when something I designed for someone does
well even I am not making money from it - it's a rep thing, like you correctly
wrote.

And yes, for all intents and purposes here - a pill is a pill is a pill.

Yeah, we can discuss size, shape, compression, dissolution and al that
but since it is NOT universal between encapsulators/pill pressers and
not even uniform batch to batch between most of these people,
it's not a practical issue to discuss and YOU know it!

You do NOT want to go down the pharmacology/pharmacotherapeutics
road with me on this one, Dr. D because while technically you might
win an argument - you're going to lose the war on this topic.

Was that "real" enough for you Phat Daddy (and the people, rollin' up
in Caddies)?


I have no doubt 6-Br "works" but I'm thinking you think you are too fly
and too pimp and you're relying way too much on rep and not science.

aw-ight?




BK

[Phat Daddy]

And yes, for all intents and purposes here - a pill is a pill is a pill.

Haha.. don't get all G thang on me B! You seem to have misunderstood. You are trying to correlate AI's that aren't even in the same class my man. That's what I meant. Not to mention kinetics, metabolites, mechanisms, etc. 6-oxo works from what I hear, but if I wanted to take 600-900mg of something, I'd rather use Teslac. I know it's gonna work in that dose range for sure. So when I say keep it real, I mean don't make any more bad comparisons or paint me as a spinner. A pill is simply not a pill in your example and 6-Br not only has a much lower Ki, it likely possesses a safety advantage as well just because you can get the job done with a much lower dose. I find no evidence at all of a safety concern or specific toxicity linked to any other corticoid, progestin or modified androgen due to the same or similar subs on the 6, nor did my bloodwork values warrant these concerns. Plus, the qualitative effects are superior according to the feedback so far, and that's just impossible to duplicate with any dose of the compound being compared. I wasn't trying to disrespect PA in anyway, but why can't we just be honest about it?

[Kohen_Gadol]

Haha.. don't get all G thang on me B! You seem to have misunderstood. You are trying to correlate AI's that aren't even in the same class my man. That's what I meant. Not to mention kinetics, metabolites, mechanisms, etc. 6-oxo works from what I hear, but if I wanted to take 600-900mg of something, I'd rather use Teslac. I know it's gonna work in that dose range for sure. So when I say keep it real, I mean don't make any more bad comparisons or paint me as a spinner. A pill is simply not a pill in your example and 6-Br not only has a much lower Ki, it likely possesses a safety advantage as well just because you can get the job done with a much lower dose. I find no evidence at all of a safety concern or specific toxicity linked to any other corticoid, progestin or modified androgen due to the same or similar subs on the 6, nor did my bloodwork values warrant these concerns. Plus, the qualitative effects are superior according to the feedback so far, and that's just impossible to duplicate with any dose of the compound being compared. I wasn't trying to disrespect PA in anyway, but why can't we just be honest about it?

*Sigh!* I really do not want to get into a beef with you - I like you and think
you have talent. But you are starting to become as arrogant, maybe more so
than Pat and myself. This will only hurt you in the future. Do not make the
errors Pat and I made, friend. This is just honest advice - you will not
always be right and if you are wrong and people get hurt - DS and you might
be liable.

The more "potent" the AI, the lower the Therapeutic Index, the more likely
there will be an adverse event or long term sequalae. You do not need to
admit this - Both the MAN dude and I agree on it and I think anyone with
common sense can see this.

So your "6-Br is likely to be safer because it can get the job done at a lower
dosage" is probably false. The side effects are partially due to the effect
the compound causes, not the dose (which is irrelevant other than the
elicitation of the effects desired). It's also a lot more likely some idiot
will ingest too much 6-Br than ATD or 6-OXO and really damage themselves.

Look at your audience I know you're smart enough to know better but
assuming a 24 year old mason who lifts weights knows better is irresponsible
and foolhearty.

"The qualitative effects are superior based on feedback so far" - this is
reliable as valid data in your book? If so, this is scary. I do not believe for
a moment you actually buy into this theory. You are too smart to know the
inherent bias that occurs in open label, unapproved board studies where
people are biting at the chomp to be a beta tester or board rep.

That is a huge bias and you're not going to spin your way out of that.
Even if you refuse to admit it, I know you are smart enough to recognize it
when you look in the mirror.

Do not infer that I do not think 6-Br is an effective chemical AI.

But please understand you're asking people to take A LOT on faith here.

6-OXO and Novedex XT have independant clinical trials done on them.

When one is done on 6-Br, I'll be the first to stand up and sing its accolades.

Cool?


BK

[Phat Daddy]

Very well BK. Nevertheless, unwarranted speculations abound and if there is in deed sparse clinical support, there is equally little reason for concern. We shall just let this story tell itself because only time will tell, but the benefit of the doubt is necessary while the scales are even. That's fair.

[Kohen_Gadol]

Very well BK. Nevertheless, unwarranted speculations abound and if there is in deed sparse clinical support, there is equally little reason for concern. We shall just let this story tell itself because only time will tell, but the benefit of the doubt is necessary while the scales are even. That's fair.

Hey, Phatty, can you address the issues in my "pimp my AI" post?

ahhhhh...thank you very much!

[GuyverX]

lol, sorry that was more of a generalization, and for the record I'm with PhatDaddy that males in general run the risk on becoming more feminized, a lot of you guys would be shocked at the amount of estrogen mimickers in the environment that we're exposed too on a daily basis. Heck, even your Aquafina bottle starts leaching chemicals into the water that can have estrogenic effects after it sits in the sun too long. I can't point to any studies on this, but they are out there and I actually have family members that are doing their PhD research on these very topics.

Anyway, my thoughts are that even short-term, transient manipulations of hormones, (estrogen) can cause negative effects in the long run. We automatically assume the body bounces back after manipulating it in this way, but ironically much smaller amounts of these AI's would probably be very useful if there was one out there that could stably be used long term (5mg or less of ATD to throw one out there, I would love to see something like this studied over 6 months to a year)

I will say I have seen quite a few guys at work with really wide hips and narrow shoulders. Not old ones
but young ones. Its weird looking, like they are upside down or something. I dunno if it has to do with them having to much estrogen or not. There is a book concerning this that I am going to buy (The Anti-Estrogenic Diet: How Estrogenic Foods and Chemicals Are Making You Fat and Sick (Paperback)
by Ori Hofmekler) he has other books like the warriors diet and similar.

[GuyverX]

Don't be so confident in an FDA endorsement. Just because a company has taken the years required to pay off the FDA and get a product to market, does not make it "safe and effective". Many products are recalled later or pulled from the market years later. 6-Bromo is basically just an improved version of it's crappy predecessor 6-Oxo. It is only one atom away from the natural human substrate for aromatase. It does not get much more "natural" than that! It is quite safe to say that 6-Bromo can be reasonably expected to be safe, effective and non-toxic in humans, and yes personal experience is the bottom line here. It tells you far more than any studies can because you don't ever really know for sure until you try it for yourself. I did. I took the initial risk, so that's as responsible as I can be about all of this to you guys. If you do not like the small risk it may carry, then just don't use it. In fact, by your line of reasoning, don't use much of anything out there!

Good point about the FDA. They have not banned cigarettes and they are an OBVIOUS risk. Not to mention Vioxx and a lot of those other pharma-drugs which ins some cases caused the symptom it was supposed to trreat.
The thing is most businesses are about money; and sad to say only personal trials will prove the efficacy of many supplements. I am in agreement with a poster who said lets test the supps on death row inmates. In exchange for them not being executed they can test supps.