Mega Dosing R-ala

[BiggJohn]

Just looking to see if anybody has any experience with high doses of r-ala during cutting. Was thinking about taking 400mg with every carbs meal. Might only be able to poteniate insulin so much, but I'm not sure.

[BiggJohn]

Bump

[hotasice2003]

This is Layne's article, and it says to either go with 600mg or 1200mg. I don't know about anything higher than that. IMO if you go higher, you want to think about hypoglycemia.
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/layne25.htm

I, personally, take 200mg 3 times a day, and are cutting. When I bulk, I will take it prolly 6 times a day........

[BiggJohn]

Thankyou, very good post. Repped.

[Dimitar]

Very nice study indeed. Keep in mind though that they used ALA. The S isomer in ALA cancels the benefits of the R-isomer so you can probably obtain the same benefits from, say, 600mg of R-ALA.

Careful with megadosing though, once I took close to 2 grams of K-R-ALA and almost passed out. I think 100-150mg of R-ALA for every 50g of carbs is reasonable.

[johnnyironboard]

I'd build up to it. Keep in mind guys that inject insulin as a stand alone don't get great results- so you have to ask the ? what are you really trying to do?

[Mr. Aries]

damn.. 400mg per meal??!??!?!? woah...


i took 5 Glucophase today and i thought i was overdoing it on my cheat day...

[gaberox]

I seem to do very well on 200mg twice a day.Once with my xpand and alcar in the morn then again with my last meal.Somtimes Ill take another 200mg.

[TheCrazyA]

Isn't the point of R-ALA to increase insulin production, if so then wouldn't you want to take it at certain times of the day like in the morning and post-work out to increase/rebuild your glycogen storage and the excess will be stored as fat. So if you increase insulin later during the day, wouldn't it increase fat storage? I dunno that was just the understanding i had, please correct me if i'm wrong.

[MynameisMike]

I don't understand why anyone would ever want to increase insulin besides pre-during-post-workout. Could someone explain this?

[gaberox]

Actually it mimics insulin so your body has to produce less of it and you become more sensitive to your own insulin.Thats why it is good for diabetics.It also helps to direct blood sugar toward glycogen storage instead of fat storage.

[BiggJohn]

damn.. 400mg per meal??!??!?!? woah...


i took 5 Glucophase today and i thought i was overdoing it on my cheat day...

GXR is more effective mg per mg than R-ala, taking alot of it probably isn't required.

[Zachattack43]

I take 2-3 caps of R per meal x 4-5meals a day and on cheat meals i take 4caps of R

[bigpump23]

it really is an interesting supp. While I don't see any difference between Glucophase as I do with r-ala( 1 GP post workout and 1 with cheat meal, r-ala at other times) I do think that some form of r-ala is a staple. That being said I wouldn't rely too heavily on high dosages for 2 long. I think of dosage of 600mg's is good, though spread out with 100mg's per meal

[TheUnlikelyToad]

Housing calories on a bulk and mega-dosing is a bad idea IMO... it's just going to get you fat.

[BiggJohn]

it's just going to get you fat.

Hun? Explain. R-ala is not going to make you fat.

[Zachattack43]

Housing calories on a bulk and mega-dosing is a bad idea IMO... it's just going to get you fat.

care to elaborate?

[gaberox]

Actually it mimics insulin so your body has to produce less of it and you become more sensitive to your own insulin.Thats why it is good for diabetics.It also helps to direct blood sugar toward glycogen storage instead of fat storage.

R-ala will not make you fat.

[CHUCK DIESEL]

Just looking to see if anybody has any experience with high doses of r-ala during cutting. Was thinking about taking 400mg with every carbs meal. Might only be able to poteniate insulin so much, but I'm not sure.

there is no need to mega dose an antioxidant that works like ala, ur suppose to use it with other antioxidants..........u really wouldnt need more than 300mg a day.

If ur using it for insulin sensitivity, look into banaba leaf.

[whitedevil74]

Very nice study indeed. Keep in mind though that they used ALA. The S isomer in ALA cancels the benefits of the R-isomer so you can probably obtain the same benefits from, say, 600mg of R-ALA.

Careful with megadosing though, once I took close to 2 grams of K-R-ALA and almost passed out. I think 100-150mg of R-ALA for every 50g of carbs is reasonable.

There is absolutely no scientific proof for this statement. This is only theorized. All of the benefits of ALA have been proven in studies that have only used ALA. To my knowledge there is not a single study where only R-ala has been used or the new K-r-ala. All of the benefits of r-ala and k-r-ala are only based upon theory and anectdoctal reports.

Listen to Chuck Diesel. He is usually right about things. Sometimes a little rough, but almost always right.

[whitedevil74]

Chuck, if you are still here, what amounts of antioxidants to you recommend a person have in a day and how important do you think they are.

[hotasice2003]

there is no need to mega dose an antioxidant that works like ala, ur suppose to use it with other antioxidants..........u really wouldnt need more than 300mg a day.

If ur using it for insulin sensitivity, look into banaba leaf.

Read Layne's article about the dosing.......

[CHUCK DIESEL]

Chuck, if you are still here, what amounts of antioxidants to you recommend a person have in a day and how important do you think they are.

very important, in many ways......

you gotta get water sol. and fat sol antioxidants.......at a min....

1,000mg Vit C a day, pref. 500mg 2X a day bc its only water sol. so it leaves the body fast.

ALA anywhere from 50mg to 300mg a day.

then some "next level" antioxidants like grape seed, pine bark, etc..,

Rosemary is a good antioxidant also.

[CHUCK DIESEL]

. Sometimes a little rough, but almost always right.

I dont mean to be rough, but most of the time now, consumers are mis-educated on how substances work in the body and most of the rec. dosages people pull out their ass is mostly to sell more product.

there is an article in the latest Planet Muscle and someone from the suppliers of kre-alk is recommeding like 10g of kre-alk pre-workout. How can something be so much stronger than reg. creatine mono. and they are rec. more of it than mono? To sell more. U only need about 5g of kre-alk/day at the high end.

[NukeDukem]

People came up with the idea that 1200mg of ALA was effective back when all we had were crappy ALA supps. K-R-ALA seems to work just as good in small doses (like that in GXR, which is actually 100mg of R-ALA). I think at most you'd take 200mg (2 GXR's) with one meal, but that is only if it has quite a large amount of carbs.

[CHUCK DIESEL]

Read Layne's article about the dosing.......

just took a look, and it looks like 300mg worked just as good as 1200mg for glucose lowering, but like I said, use ala for its antioxidant effects, its an expensive supplement to use for glucose lowering when u can use stuff like Banaba leaf.

[CHUCK DIESEL]

also that article does use and talk about ALA (s and r) not r ala which is about (or maybe) 2X as effective as a combination of both BUT regular ala does work and is a more cost effective form.

from the article:

"Maddux et. al, found that both isomers of lipoic acid were equally effective in preventing oxidative stress induced impairment of glucose transport6. Rudich et. al., found that S-LA was more effective than R-LA in protecting against oxidant induced insulin action impairment in 3T3-L1 adipocytes [4]."

[BiggJohn]

also that article does use and talk about ALA (s and r) not r ala which is about (or maybe) 2X as effective as a combination of both BUT regular ala does work and is a more cost effective form.

from the article:

"Maddux et. al, found that both isomers of lipoic acid were equally effective in preventing oxidative stress induced impairment of glucose transport6. Rudich et. al., found that S-LA was more effective than R-LA in protecting against oxidant induced insulin action impairment in 3T3-L1 adipocytes [4]."

Good post Chuck, I hadn't seen that before.

[factotum]

Actually it mimics insulin so your body has to produce less of it and you become more sensitive to your own insulin.Thats why it is good for diabetics.It also helps to direct blood sugar toward glycogen storage instead of fat storage.

How does it help with glycogen storage if it just mimics insulin? There are other factors involved which could shuttle it toward either direction. It would be favorable to use postworkout when when nutrient partitioning favors the muscle cells over adipose tisssue. But at other times it (especially with high carbs) might just make you fat. Then again there's studies showing it inhibits glycogen storage albeit in rats as the following study shows.

J Nutr 2002 Oct;132(10):3001-6 Related Articles, Links


Alpha-lipoic acid inhibits glycogen synthesis in rat soleus muscle via its oxidative activity and the uncoupling of mitochondria.

Dicter N, Madar Z, Tirosh O.

Institute of Biochemistry, Food Science and Nutrition, Faculty of Agricultural, Food and Environmental Quality Sciences, The Hebrew University of Jerusalem, Rehovot 76100, Israel.

alpha-Lipoic acid (LA) is currently being investigated as a glucose-lowering agent for diabetes control; it is also considered a powerful dietary antioxidant. The objective of this study was to investigate the fate of glucose in isolated rat muscles incubated with LA and determine its effects on intramuscular redox status. Rat soleus muscles were incubated for up to 60 min with 2.4 mmol/L LA in the presence or absence of insulin. Intramuscular concentrations of LA were evaluated (uptake and reduction), and glycogen synthesis, glucose oxidation, intramuscular reactive oxygen species (ROS) production and mitochondrial membrane potential investigated. Insulin enhanced glycogen synthesis, whereas LA decreased rates by >50%. LA elevated ROS production and in combination with t-butylhydroperoxide, an oxidant, additively inhibited glycogen synthesis rates by 80%. Insulin acted as an antioxidant and attenuated ROS production by 30%. LA uncoupled the mitochondria and accelerated glucose oxidation 1.5-fold relative to the control. The glycogen synthesis pathway was found to be dependent on mitochondrial function because treatment with mitochondrial inhibitors eliminated the majority of glycogen synthesis. These data show that in this model, LA acts as a mild prooxidant, causing mitochondrial uncoupling and inhibition of glycogen synthesis. It appears that LA regulates glucose metabolism in the muscle differently than insulin.

[adampascal]

I had terrible heart burn with too much R-ALA I tried to take a days worth at one time and I have acid reflux like crazy all day long. Needless to say I never did that again.