Ecdysterone, 20-beta-hydroxyecdysterone or Rhaponticum Carthamoides Extract?

[italionstallion]

The one that really got me rolling on the floor was

..MN...

lol

MN Sells 1 product

LOL

[Scivation]

The one that really got me rolling on the floor was




lol

MN Sells 1 product

LOL

No offense to any of those companies, but if they are heavy hitters, what is Muscletech and EAS?

[dito]

Jizz moppers!

[Scivation]

Jizz moppers!

Well, that answers that question!

[italionstallion]

Jizz moppers!

You seem to really be liking that term lately....

Maybe you enjoy partaking in that activity ?

[warriors]

until then stick to Hyperdrol or Jungle Warfare..X-Factor etc...at least those products will build muscle

hahahhaha...dude hyperdrol just came out so as far as we know it may be the biggest "flop" since Product X.

[beer20]

hahahhaha...dude hyperdrol just came out so as far as we know it may be the biggest "flop" since Product X.

dude,i gained 10lbs of LBM when i won a bottle of huperdrol...

[Bloute]

hahahhaha...dude hyperdrol just came out so as far as we know it may be the biggest "flop" since Product X.

Warriors, I think you didn't read the logs on Product X. They were great and it's the only thing that is important with supplements. THE LOGS !

[391rippy]

Though ommid can be annoying at times, he is a humorous troll

[OMMID]

Say what u scrubz want...bottom line is 95% of the products your companies sell suck and dont do crap...MN may sell one product...but name one product you Rep TRolls sell that can even step up ? All you Thermolife reps Should Circle Jerk each other off...bottle it up...and force feed it to urselfs...Your a bunch Computer Jizz Heads..Enjoy

[beer20]

Say what u scrubz want...bottom line is 95% of the products your companies sell suck and dont do crap...MN may sell one product...but name one product you Rep TRolls sell that can even step up ? All you Thermolife reps Should Circle Jerk each other off...bottle it up...and force feed it to urselfs...Your a bunch Computer Jizz Heads..Enjoy

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=814952

[Scivation]

Say what u scrubz want...bottom line is 95% of the products your companies sell suck and dont do crap...MN may sell one product...but name one product you Rep TRolls sell that can even step up ? All you Thermolife reps Should Circle Jerk each other off...bottle it up...and force feed it to urselfs...Your a bunch Computer Jizz Heads..Enjoy

Sir,

No offense, but I understand that language. You are speaking Jive.

Does anyone on this plane speak Jive?

[beer20]

Sir,

No offense, but I understand that language. You are speaking Jive.

Does anyone on this plane speak Jive?

<img src=http://www.celebriweb.com/Resources/jd3store.gif>

[drewkowsky]

Here's my question, why can't anyone tell us how these products work?

[pu12en12g]

Here's my question, why can't anyone tell us how these products work?

They might "work" (do something) in high doses, but are not cost effective IMO. This is a comment about the ingredients themselves... nothing more. If ECDY was actually "superior to DBOL" as the russian studies "claim" there would be no need for this discussion, the stuff would sell like crack and that would be the end of it... and it would probably get banned.

For clarification, russia already had the "superior to DBOL" ECDY available back in the 50's (60's ?) so no "new technology" or latest / greatest version should be needed.....

I don't always agree with Big Cat but he is often on point

This is nothing new, its all the same hype that was used to plug this crap when it first came out. These Russian studies are tainted materials and largely unreliable. One study claimed to have proven ecdysterone worked better than dianabol. Obviously publication standards for those studies were not as high, and the majority were published in Russian magazines with no name of significance. Studies were most likely riddled with mistakes, and never verified or repeated. I would would take it upon myself to prove it, but A) these studies are so obscure apparently noone has them and B) my Russian is extremely rusty.

The idea of citing studies to prove something is so that the person reading them would take the time to look up and read the studies to verify it, they are not there for amusement value. And they are certainly not there to be used as a cheap unverifiable plug as is the case here.

Quite possibly, if you are a Japanese quail, this stuff is as good as Dbol. For everyone else its an utter waste of money, and this has been verified in real life over and over with large doses, small doses, while cutting, while bulking, you name it.

Patrick Arnold:

In animals all the studies were oral. many different species of animals

so if it is gonna work in humans, it would have been effective orally as well

its history of use has shown us that it is pretty ineffective in humans orally

stick a fork in methoxy

anabolic isoflavones are a bust and always will be a bust. i don't care if you mainline the stuff, its a bust

[HalleluYAH]

They might "work" (do something) in high doses, but are not cost effective IMO.

Studies have reportedly shown that certain ecdy's, expecially when taking as whole extracts versus isolates, have produced excellent results in increasing protien synthesis. If so, and this proves a safe, legal way to drastically increase protein synthesis, would cost really be a factor?

Quantitative determination of 20-hydroxyecdysone in methanolic extract of twigs from Vitex polygama Cham.

Gallo MB, Beltrame FL, Vieira PC, Cass QB, Fernandes JB, da Silva MF.

Departamento de Quimica, Universidade Federal de Sao Carlos, CP 676, 13560-970 Sao Carlos, SP, Brazil. marejor@uol.com.br

20-Hydroxyecdysone (20E) is effective in stimulating protein synthesis, therefore, it has been largely used as anabolic agent in several commercial formulas. Phytochemical study of methanolic extract of twigs from Vitex polygama, used in traditional Brazilian medicine as emenagogue, yielded a large quantity of 20E. This finding led us to developing and validating a simple and reliable method to determine 20E in the surveyed extract. Chromatographic separation of 20E was achieved on a phenyl-hexyl-based column using reversed elution mode. Extract was cleaned-up by solid phase extraction employing C(18) cartridge, and an absolute recovery of 97% was acquired. External standard and standard addition calibration graphs were obtained and good linearity was accomplished (r>0.999 for both curves). The limit of quantification and detection were determined. The results for accuracy fell within the -5 to +7% range.

[Scivation]

Here's my question, why can't anyone tell us how these products work?

Here is what we think:

Recently, Ecdy was shown to enhance skeletal muscle growth of skeletal muscle cell cultures by increasing gene expression (Xiao et al 2003). There are two ways by which gene expression can be increased (1) hormone/ligand binding to a nuclear receptor and (2) nongenomicly. When a hormone/ligand binds to a nuclear receptor protein synthesis begins, which consists of a long series of processes (transcription à protein translation à incorporation of protein into cell membrane) that takes hours to complete. A nongenomic effect results in the same series of events, but is an immediate response and does not require hormone/ligand binding.

It is believed Ecdy works through nongemoic effects including stabilization of cell membranes and modification of membrane proteins and other effects on the membrane, and accumulation of ligands (Kholodova 2001), which I think could lead to increased ligand binding to nuclear receptors. ECDY can also increase RNA synthesis (Otaka 1969) and protein translation (Syrov 1984), which would further enhance the process of protein synthesis and growth.

Ecdy has been shown to enhance sexual activity in both animals and humans (Lafont & Dinan 2003) and improve sexual function in men (Mirzaev 2000). ECDY increases the body’s ability to respond to stress by increasing acetylcholine esterase activity in the brain (Slama & Lafont 1995). Ecdy also helps maintain healthy cholesterol levels (Slama & Lafont 1995), decreases glucose levels independently of insulin (Chen et al 2006), all of which improve the bodies ability to adapt to stress.

[Scivation]

They might "work" (do something) in high doses, but are not cost effective IMO. This is a comment about the ingredients themselves... nothing more. If ECDY was actually "superior to DBOL" as the russian studies "claim" there would be no need for this discussion, the stuff would sell like crack and that would be the end of it... and it would probably get banned.

For clarification, russia already had the "superior to DBOL" ECDY available back in the 50's (60's ?) so no "new technology" or latest / greatest version should be needed.....

I don't always agree with Big Cat but he is often on point



Patrick Arnold:

I've always wanted to point to the logs to you, so here is my shot. The feedback has been too favorable for it to do nothing. Superior to Dbol? Considering your liver won't explode and reports of muscle gains and increased hardness are the norm, I'd say yes, I'd rather take Ecdy than Dbol.

Surprisingly to me, more people in the industry's science community have cozied up to Ecdy than CEE. There is a reason for this.....

[HalleluYAH]

Have you read the full text of the article abstract I just posted?

[Scivation]

Have you read the full text of the article abstract I just posted?

I don't usually drown myself in full texts, but Chuck and Derek do and can chime in if needed.

[hotasice2003]

What are everyone's thoughts on stacking Ecdy with a MethoxyIsoflavone and an Iprilflavone? I know they are already added in some products, but I am just curious........ I know you typically need a hgiher dosage as well.....

[dito]

They might "work" (do something) in high doses, but are not cost effective IMO. This is a comment about the ingredients themselves... nothing more. If ECDY was actually "superior to DBOL" as the russian studies "claim" there would be no need for this discussion, the stuff would sell like crack and that would be the end of it... and it would probably get banned.

For clarification, russia already had the "superior to DBOL" ECDY available back in the 50's (60's ?) so no "new technology" or latest / greatest version should be needed.....

:

Ecdysten is from Russia. This is quite ironic comming from Mr. Holy Grail himself!

[HalleluYAH]

I don't usually drown myself in full texts, but Chuck and Derek do and can chime in if needed.

Yes, I am hoping to read the full text myself. However, there is no way I am paying for it.

[italionstallion]

You might enjoy this halleluyah

http://www.rhodiolarosea.org/Web-Rhaponticum.pdf

(Posted by trans at another forum)

[HalleluYAH]

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=818751

[CanadaBBOY]

Studies have reportedly shown that certain ecdy's, expecially when taking as whole extracts versus isolates, have produced excellent results in increasing protien synthesis. If so, and this proves a safe, legal way to drastically increase protein synthesis, would cost really be a factor?

Quantitative determination of 20-hydroxyecdysone in methanolic extract of twigs from Vitex polygama Cham.

Gallo MB, Beltrame FL, Vieira PC, Cass QB, Fernandes JB, da Silva MF.

Departamento de Quimica, Universidade Federal de Sao Carlos, CP 676, 13560-970 Sao Carlos, SP, Brazil. marejor@uol.com.br

20-Hydroxyecdysone (20E) is effective in stimulating protein synthesis, therefore, it has been largely used as anabolic agent in several commercial formulas. Phytochemical study of methanolic extract of twigs from Vitex polygama, used in traditional Brazilian medicine as emenagogue, yielded a large quantity of 20E. This finding led us to developing and validating a simple and reliable method to determine 20E in the surveyed extract. Chromatographic separation of 20E was achieved on a phenyl-hexyl-based column using reversed elution mode. Extract was cleaned-up by solid phase extraction employing C(18) cartridge, and an absolute recovery of 97% was acquired. External standard and standard addition calibration graphs were obtained and good linearity was accomplished (r>0.999 for both curves). The limit of quantification and detection were determined. The results for accuracy fell within the -5 to +7% range.

This is simply discussing methods for extraction and quantification of 20-H, not really useful for the general bodybuilding community i don't think.

[warriors]

Ecdysten is from Russia. This is quite ironic comming from Mr. Holy Grail himself!

haha dito you never seem to surprise me

[italionstallion]

They "work" (do something).

Thank you very much for your comment, I'm glad we agree on that.

ECDY actually "superior to DBOL"

I don't know if I would personally say its superior to D-BOL, but hey, if you want to say that, I'm not going to stop you. Its kind of funny because I have actually seen other members compare certain products to Ph's, but I never thought that you would be the one to say ecdy is superior to DBOL

there no need for this discussion

I agree once again. Ecdy is a very good product, so why not just end it at that and go check out the logs.

For clarification, russia already had the "superior to DBOL" ECDY available back in the 50's (60's ?) so no "new technology" or latest / greatest version should be needed.....

You are absolutely correct, there is no "new technology", but I imagine extraction processes and testing for the active could have changed over that time frame, so if anything, it would be even better today then it was back then.

We appreciate your great feedback and comments, and thanks for the support.

[drewkowsky]

Here is what we think:

Recently, Ecdy was shown to enhance skeletal muscle growth of skeletal muscle cell cultures by increasing gene expression (Xiao et al 2003). There are two ways by which gene expression can be increased (1) hormone/ligand binding to a nuclear receptor and (2) nongenomicly. When a hormone/ligand binds to a nuclear receptor protein synthesis begins, which consists of a long series of processes (transcription à protein translation à incorporation of protein into cell membrane) that takes hours to complete. A nongenomic effect results in the same series of events, but is an immediate response and does not require hormone/ligand binding.

It is believed Ecdy works through nongemoic effects including stabilization of cell membranes and modification of membrane proteins and other effects on the membrane, and accumulation of ligands (Kholodova 2001), which I think could lead to increased ligand binding to nuclear receptors. ECDY can also increase RNA synthesis (Otaka 1969) and protein translation (Syrov 1984), which would further enhance the process of protein synthesis and growth.

Ecdy has been shown to enhance sexual activity in both animals and humans (Lafont & Dinan 2003) and improve sexual function in men (Mirzaev 2000). ECDY increases the body’s ability to respond to stress by increasing acetylcholine esterase activity in the brain (Slama & Lafont 1995). Ecdy also helps maintain healthy cholesterol levels (Slama & Lafont 1995), decreases glucose levels independently of insulin (Chen et al 2006), all of which improve the bodies ability to adapt to stress.

Aaahhhh thank you Marc. I will look more into this.

[Bloute]

They might "work" (do something) in high doses, but are not cost effective IMO. This is a comment about the ingredients themselves... nothing more. If ECDY was actually "superior to DBOL" as the russian studies "claim" there would be no need for this discussion, the stuff would sell like crack and that would be the end of it... and it would probably get banned.

For clarification, russia already had the "superior to DBOL" ECDY available back in the 50's (60's ?) so no "new technology" or latest / greatest version should be needed.....

I don't always agree with Big Cat but he is often on point

PU, I think it's a bit ironic or at least special that you quote Big Cat when you want. He is only right when he talks about other supps than CL :

Much like the excerpt states that is dependent on a great number of factors. Surely timing pre-workout is good, but systemic delivery tells me that 90% of that GMS will be utilized in fat storage, with the minimal amount reaching muscle tissue during exercise being rather irrelevant, as their is sufficient supply of MG, TG and FFA's to go around during normal exercise.

I don't want to start a flame war in this thread, this isn't the place. I know you said that you don't always agree with Big Cat but he is often on point.
So instead of quoting Big Cat only when you think he is right, just give your opinion about ecdysterone.

Only my 0.02 $.

Please don't start a flamewar for this PU12.