Westside / 5x5 Hybrid program

[kethnaab]

Well, after posting the WSB Template and WS4BB, I have gotten MORE PMs, this time regarding a hybrid 5x5/WSB program. Now, usually I speak from complete experience; I’ve done variations of each the 5x5 and Westside programs before, as well as the “early version” of DC, various iterations of HIT, 8x8 training, 3-day splits, 4-day splits, 7-day splits (each bodypart got its own day), super high volume, Yates-style lower volume, Ed Coan style PL SF periodized programs, etc…when you hear me state something, I am stating MY opinion, unless I give credit to the originator. I don’t like guesswork, and I don’t talk smack about someone else’s ideas if I have not tried them out myself or had a few of my buddies, soldiers or wife try it out. Like most dudes who are the “biggest” fish in a small pond, I get asked a lot for weight training advice by my buddies and guys in the various military units to which I’ve been assigned, so I have a decent pool of results to pull from.

Again, I have done a variation of the 5x5 with great success, and have had TONS of success with my WS4BB variant, but I have NEVER combined 5x5 with Westside. I have enough personal experience with both that I feel I can toss out a pretty good idea as to how a WSB/5x5 template would work though by taking what I like from each and adjusting what I don't like. With that in mind, recognize that this is one man’s opinion, and the key to any true advanced program is going to be customization.

If you have not AT LEAST run both the intermediate 5x5 and a WSB style training program for awhile, you really will not be able to customize this properly. In order to know what the hell I’m rambling about, you will need a damn good understanding of the why’s, how’s and wherefore’s of both training methods. If you don’t understand the principles and the reasoning behind the principles of each training method, I am going to seem like a rambling fool to you. In fact, even if you DO understand both programs, I’m probably going to seem like a rambling fool.

However, never let it be said that I fear looking like a fool, so here we go.

5x5 is cookie cutter. WSB is all about customization. Madcow himself said outright that the spreadsheet serves ONLY as a starting point, that the 2nd time around, you should be able to adjust for your own needs/strengths/weaknesses as far as weight selection and Wednesday exercises. This is not a beginner’s or an intermediate program. It is an ADVANCED program. It also has a lot of volume, so it is best that you do this program after a full deload (from a DF program) or after a SD (if you were running HST). If you are not in good “shape”, meaning your workload capacity/recovery is poor, then run the intermediate 5x5 for a month, starting at week 2, to get yourself into proper workload shape. Do a 1-2 week deload and then hit things up with this one.

Monday - ME upper body/press
ME press variant-------3 x 1 – 3, 1 set each @ 90% / 100% / 95% of 3, 2, or 1 RM
Squat/DL variant (a)-- 5x5 (ramped)
RE press variant (a)--- 5x5 (sets across, adjust weights down 5-10% from template)
Pendlay rows----------5x5 (ramped)

Wednesday - RE day
SQ/DL variant (b)----- 4x10
RE Press variant (b)-- 4x10
Chinups----------------- 4x10
Yates rows------------- 4x10

Friday - ME lower body
ME DL variant----------3 x 1 - 3 > @ 90% / 100% / 95% of 1, 2, or 3 RM
Squat/DL variant (a)---5x5 (sets across, adjust weights downward 5-10%)
RE press variant (a)--- -5x5 (ramped)
Pendlay rows------------5x5 (sets across)

The ever popular laterals are easily implemented for the medial delts. Sets of GHRs and/or reverse hypers and/or heel plate drags provide a way of taxing the hamstrings without overly taxing recovery. One (or two, or all 3, if you are a stud) can be added in up to twice weekly, the laterals all 3 days if you can swing it, much as direct arm work and hypers/abdominals are added in the Madcow 5x5’s. Understand that those exercises are ADJUNCTS, rather than core principles. Leave them out if you must. Don’t introduce them haphazardly.

Exercise selection. I included both Pendlay rows and Yates rows because they are the 2 most effective exercises for the entire back that I know of, and they are DRASTICALLY different in both technique and affect. The Yates rows are done on 10-rep day for a reason. This is an exercise that knuckleheads like to get stupid with and load up the weight. DON’T do that. Suck down 5% of your ego and use 5% less weight and watch your technique improve by 50% and your results improve by 100%. Leave the egos at the door, bitches. To further mitigate this problem, I have chinups as the precursor to the rows as a means of “pre-exhaustion”. So now you have a very reasonable excuse to scale back on the weight for them. Tell that little voice inside your head to STFU, you just got done chinning, you don’t NEED 3 plates on there.

- Select your exercises for the squat/DL/bench variations according to your strengths and weaknesses. If you know that “off the floor” is a weakness in the deadlift, then leave the rack pulls for someone else. If you know that your lockout is asskicking, you’re fine at the midpoint, but you suck right off the chest, then give some strong consideration to reverse wide-grip benches and overhead presses, rather than CGBP and DB presses. If you don’t give a **** how much you lift, you just want to pack on mass and strength is secondary, then select your exercises according to physique weakpoints rather than strength weakpoints.

- Unlike the basic WSB, which says “no direct squatting, deadlifting or benching”, I recommend that you use the basic squat, deadlift and bench press as much as possible in this program. No one that is reading this is an elite powerlifter, so chances are pretty good, you’ll need to keep benching, squatting and deadlifting in order to continue your progress. Additionally, unlike those advanced lifters, you can still have a tremendous amount of success incorporating the big 3 into your routine.

- ME exercises will be maintained for 2-3 weeks. Again, no world class powerlifter is going to take my advice, and the “change every week” thing primarily applies to them. On Week 1, you take your 3RM and perform a set at 90%, a set at 100%, and a set at 95% of your 3RM. All 3 sets are for 3 reps apiece. On week 2, you will do the same thing, but you will do doubles. During Week 3, you do singles and attempt to hit a PR for your 1-RM. At that point, you change ME exercises as you should hit a 1-RM for that exercise, as well as getting to your previous 5-RM on your main “supplementary” exercises (press variant “a” and squat variant “a”). Keep the supplementary exercises the same for another 3 week run and change to a new ME exercise. Do another 3-week run with the different ME exercise, as above (Triples during week 1, etc). (NOTE – If you have run WSB previously, then stick with whatever ME %age scheme you like. I like 90/100/95. If you like something different, then by all means, do whachalike. Customize!) If you choose to switch ME exercise every other week, then shoot for week 1 = 3RM, week 2 = 1RM


*continued*

[kethnaab]

Weight selection. You can use Madcow’s Advanced template as a starting point for weight calculations for the 5x5 ramping and sets across, as well as weekly progression. On Monday, reduce poundage on your second press by 5-10% to account for the ME press you do first in the day. Same for Fridays and the lower body exercise. Remember, it is a TEMPLATE. You should already know whether a 6% ramp works for you or if a 9% ramp works better.
- On Wednesdays, you will do 10-rep sets of completely different exercises (lower “b”, press “b”, Yates rows). Normally, your 10-RM is ABOUT 80-85% of your 5RM for that exercise. So if you can hit 200 for a set of 5, then you should be able to hit 160-170 for a set of 10. If you cannot hit 160-170 in this case, then adjust the weights upward or downward on the 10-rep day according to your own abilities. If you can hit 175-180 for a set of 10, then you probably can go reasonably heavy on Wednesdays. Adjust according to your own abilities

- I am of the (strong) opinion that, especially for bodybuilders, a very tight “ramp” should be done for the rows, and a noticeably “looser” ramp on the presses. I like a 5-6% ramp on the rows, a 12% on the presses (more on CGBP), and a 10% on the legs. Adjust as needed. I’m not going to tell you how to suck this egg, you should have enough training experience to suck it your own way.

If you have not done at least the intermediate version of 5x5, you will not know how best to individualize this for you, so you may need to adjust fire as you go along. Ramp 12% on Wednesdays, maybe even 15%. Remember, Wednesday is supposed to be something of a “break”. This may seem easy compared to a 5x5 where you still work hard on Wednesdays, but remember, Mondays and Fridays will be MUCH tougher when doing the ME work. Shorter rest periods, move between sets faster. Wednesdays is the “pump” day.

For deload, set all 5x5 work on Mondays and Fridays to 3x3, replace the ME work with DE work (8x3 @ 50-60% on bench press, 10x2 @ 50-60% on box squats). Drop to 3x10 on Wednesdays for each exercise. Like 5x5, as long as you are hitting PRs on those main supplementary exercises and bar speed is good for the DE work, keep riding that overreaching/supercompensation wave. I'm estimating that every other ME exercise switch will be good for a deload.

I’m working on a spreadsheet that will account for the 5-10% reduction on ME days as well as adjust for the ramping differences and the extra exercises. I may or may not bother to finish with it, as I am pretty strongly of the opinion that the key to success in this program is going to be knowledge of your own body and how you react to training variables (Such as exercise selection, weight progression, ramping, etc)

Besides, I spoon feed people more than enough. If you’re to this point now, you should be able to take my ideas, adjust as needed, and run with them.

Now then, that’s the basic program, let’s look at the pros and cons of each method and why I organized things the way I did.

5x5 “basic ideas”
1) Do 5 x 5 with the same weight on one day, ramping on another day
2) Wednesday has less total tonnage and less volume than Monday and Wednesday
3) Constantly push to increase the weights in your core lifts
4) Keep the identical lifts throughout

WSB “basic ideas”
1) Pick an exercise for bench and an exercise for squat/DL and “max out” once weekly (ME)
2) Perform a speed day for bench and squat (DE)
3) Select exercises that increase your ability to perform each of the “big 3” and perform a strength/hypertrophy routine with them for sets of 5-12 reps (RE)
4) Change the ME lifts frequently, the RE lifts not so frequently

5x5 Pros
1) Effective - Focus on squat, bench and dead guarantees increases in overall strength and mass (assuming proper diet)
2) Easily organized, easy to understand
3) Easy methodology for ramping, progression, and deloading (programming)
4) Done properly, all lifts go through the roof
5x5 Cons
1) Static program is not easily customized
2) No real way to emphasize weak points
3) Monotonous – Focus on very small # of “core” exercises may lead to boredom (we’re dealing with the Nintendo generation here, stuff has to change every hour or they will get antsy and start spastically clicking on the channel changer)

WSB Pros
1) Easily customized for individual preferences
2) Designed to perfectly emphasize weak points
3) Variety keeps things interesting and makes workouts “fun”
4) Done properly, all lifts go through the roof
WSB Cons
1) “Complex” exercises and concepts can be confusing
2) De-emphasis of the “big 3”, especially the deadlift, can result in halted gains for intermediate trainees; even advanced trainees frequently need to hit “heavy” benches, squats and deadlifts
3) More difficult to periodize for the average trainee due to frequently changing exercises
4) Absolutely REQUIRES a spot 2 days out of the week for both ME days
WSB and 5x5 are almost perfectly complementary, as far as their pros/cons. A con of 1 is a pro in the other.

The WSB template is far more complex, the 5x5 template is easy, so we’ll start with the 5x5 template (mitigating WSB Con #1). DE days have mostly strict carryover for powerlifters rather than bodybuilders, so we will drop DE work entirely (NOTE – DE work makes for a GREAT deload!) 5x5 sets across as well as ramped 5x5 and ramped 4x10 comprise the RE work. The 2 ME days are very easy to incorporate, one on Monday for upper body, one on Friday for a deadlift variation (mitigating WSB con # 2). If you want to pull heavy on Mondays and bench heavy on Fridays, be my guest. Adjust your supplementary rep scheme accordingly. Wednesday during 5x5 is typically a “lighter” day, with 4 sets instead of 5, sub-max squats, military presses instead of bench presses, and only 1 maximal set of 5 for the deadlift. This becomes an RE day where all sets are ramped, and we get to go for the pump because “it is like cumming” and even powerlifters like to cum, right?

In order to mitigate all 3 of the 5x5 cons, a group of core exercises is selected for the press, squat and deadlift. Several ME press exercises will be chosen and will be rotated every 1-3 weeks on Monday. 2 additional presses will be chosen, 1 performed Mondays and Fridays (main supplemental exercise) in typical 5x5 fashion, the other performed on Wednesday RE day (accessory exercise), with higher repetitions. The supplemental exercises do NOT change, you continue to work hard to improve them and add weight. The accessory exercises are not weight dependent and can be changed on a whim from week to week if you like.

The various primary deadlift variants will comprise the ME lower body work, mitigating WSB con # 4 since deadlifts don’ need no steenkin’ spotter. If you have a spotter and you want to do ME squats, then go for it! Or if you like to base jump without a parachute, swim with sharks and run with the bulls, do ME work WITHOUT a spotter. Just make sure you list me in your will, mmmmkay?

Anyway, 2 different squat/pull variations will be chosen. As with the press variations, 1 is performed Mondays and Fridays in typical 5x5 fashion, the other performed on Wednesday RE day, with higher repetitions. In both cases, you select your supplementary press/squat/pull to suit your own weak points. Also note – your own lower back recovery abilities should play HEAVILY into your selection. You’re doing Yates rows on Wednesdays. That is a heavy-ass exercise, even at 10 reps. That might not be the day to select heavy RDLs as your “accessory” exercise. Yeah, they’re 10-rep sets, but your lower back might really limit you and jack up your Yates rows. Might recommend reverse hypers, ghetto glute-ham or front squats, to keep your lower back a bit less…”taxed”. If you really really need to hit the hammies and you cannot do the ghetto GHR or reverse hypers, you might want to switch to supported rows or cable rows of some sort rather than the Yates and do the SLDL/RDL. I’d rather see you perform cable rows properly and hit your weak points than do Yates rows (especially improperly) at the neglect of your weak points. Also note – you can select concentric-only exercises for your weak points on Wednesdays if you have a problem with DOMS on Fridays from the Wednesday workouts.

By using the large group of exercises YOU chose to best develop YOUR weak points, you can keep training more fluid while maintaining easy progression, thereby mitigating all 3 of the main 5x5 cons.

So there you have it, a “basic recipe” for success. Not a step-by-step spoonfeeding, but a sampling of ideas that you can use a starting point to construct your own workout program. If you aren’t experienced, stick to a templated workout. If you have the experience, give the 5x5/WSB hybrid a go and report back with how you adjusted it and how it worked as a result, for better or for worse.

I wonder how long it’ll take someone to ask about direct arm, calf and trap work.

[Serpens Aeon]

Another job well done. When I'm done with my current mesocycle I might just give this one a go.

I suspect this will serve as a great introductory program to conjugate periodization around these parts since so many are familiar of the 5x5 workouts, but more or less stumped by the actions of the cult of Westside Barbell.

[all pro]

Nice job Kethnaab. I like it. This is the first time I've seen it explained in a way that didn't cause my one remaining brain cell to go into a melt down.


vBulletin Message
You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to kethnaab again.

I hate this system.

[RavensFan2k3]

Great job kethnaab, I guess this is too advanced for someone like me

[JustR82]

Good job I like the concept of this. It is more than enough work for a 3 day split. One day I hope I can try something like this out

[RipStone]

Kethnabb- Dude you are just churning out the programs this week....NICE!!

[kethnaab]

Great job kethnaab, I guess this is too advanced for someone like me

well the issue is not so much workload as that it depends on knowledge of one's own body

if you aren't sure how best to ramp your weights, or how to progress from week to week, and ESPECIALLY if you aren't sure how to take care of your weak points, then you're better off sticking with a basic 5x5 until you are ready to customize

you might be one of those lucky fools who responds so well to benches, squats, rows and deads that specializing would actually set you back.

[all pro]

you might be one of those lucky fools who responds so well to benches, squats, rows and deads that specializing would actually set you back.

UM that would be me. But only because I'm a cheetah and not a gazelle. I'll never win a marathon but when I run the 40 the grass behind me catches fire.

[VikingMan]

Great post Kethnaab.

<<vikingman humbly thinks he might have made a mistake going with WS4BB without trying something like this first.>>

Would you call this a good stepping stone to go from 5X5 to a full blown WS variant program?

[KhorneDeth]

Great post Kethnaab.

<<vikingman humbly thinks he might have made a mistake going with WS4BB without trying something like this first.>>

Would you call this a good stepping stone to go from 5X5 to a full blown WS variant program?

To me, this looks like an excellent transitional program! Especially with the (appropriate) caveat kethnaab made saying this is for ADVANCED trainees. I mean, a novice probably wouldn't be able to "fill in the blanks" to make this useful, and they'd be better served doing something like Rippetoe's program anyway. A late-begginer/intermediate should be making steady progress on a SF5x5 type of program without worrying about variables and exercise switching. Once that progress slows such that you're needing to reset and re-ramp fairly regularly, then you're getting toward the early-advanced stage and a dual-factor periodized program like the DF5x5 can come into play.....

....and then by God if someone wanted to try tackling a sort of Westside Lite template that is a natural extension of what they've been doing, BAM here comes keth with this awesome hybrid! Learn the principles, learn to switch exercises, identify weak points, and such with this program. Then finally if you're so inclined, a WS4BB or standard WSB template awaits.

Lol, i'm a pretty methodical guy, so I'm digging how that plays out.... Rippetoe --> SF5x5 --> DF5x5 --> 5x5/WSB Hybrid --> full on Westside for XYZ. **** man, a layout like this could ultimately span a lifter's entire career. Easily 3-5+ yrs, at the very least, and not once do we bring in any useless isolation **** like supinated inverse Transylvanian hyper-split hip twists!! (cuz you gotta hit that one muscle right above the curve of your asscheek or you'll be unproportionate.....)

If I could rep you again keth, I would. You're an animal, bro.

-- KhorneDeth

[kethnaab]

UM that would be me. But only because I'm a cheetah and not a gazelle. I'll never win a marathon but when I run the 40 the grass behind me catches fire

when I run the 40, the grass wilts. I'll assume it's from all the egg protein.

Would you call this a good stepping stone to go from 5X5 to a full blown WS variant program?

yes. AFTER YOU DELOAD, DAMMIT!!! *plinks VikingMan on the forehead with a spoon*

novice probably wouldn't be able to "fill in the blanks" to make this useful, and they'd be better served doing something like Rippetoe's program anyway. A late-begginer/intermediate should be making steady progress on a SF5x5 type of program without worrying about variables and exercise switching. Once that progress slows such that you're needing to reset and re-ramp fairly regularly, then you're getting toward the early-advanced stage and a dual-factor periodized program like the DF5x5 can come into play.....

well, you are pretty damn close.

Once you have enough "experience" with a SF 5x5, or even the beginner's Westside workouts, you can hit up a full-blown WS4BB or WSB/5x5. The key is KNOWING yourself. That is the TRUE difference between an intermediate and an advanced trainee. An intermediate trainee might be MUCH larger than an advanced guy, but he just doesn't know his own body and is better off sticking to something that is templated for them, like a SF5x5. His size might make him seem like he is "advanced", but he has genetics on his side moreso than the other guy.

Rippetoe --> SF5x5 --> DF5x5 --> 5x5/WSB Hybrid --> full on Westside for XYZ

For the most part, you are hitting the nail on the head, but I want to caution some people who might get the idea that they could run Rippetoe for 6 months, then run SF5x5 for 8 weeks, then hit up a DF5x5 or jump immediately into a WS4BB or WSB/5x5.

It probably won't work like that. You'll miss the boat because both the WS4BB and WSB/5x5 is designed with the idea that you know your weak points. I was deliberately vague on several points here because, SPECIFICALLY, you need to know YOUR body.

If I say outright what to do, then I provide a DISservice, as there will be some guys nowhere NEAR ready for this type of program who will see the "cookie cutter" version I draw up and decide "hey, I can do that", and then bury themselves. I was vague because an experience trainee will know how to "fill in the blanks" caused by the vague-ness (is that a word?)

I would caution people on jumping straight into WS4BB from an SF 5x5 *nudges VikingMan*. If you're going to do it, then DELOAD FIRST!!! *nudges VikingMan even harder*

A quick overview will show you that:

SF 5x5 = 15 sets of heavy work daily, INCLUDING 3 sub-ME sets WEEKLY.
WSB/5x5 = 15-16 sets of heavy work daily, IN ADDITION to 6 ME sets weekly (note large volume increase)
WS4BB = a whole helluva lot more.

how can you do a WSB/5x5 or WS4BB and not get buried? Simple, know your weak points. You MUST know your weak points. You cannot POSSIBLY hope to do your strongest lifts all the time on these programs, that is why the volume is a bit higher, the whole "practice makes perfect" thing.

That's one of the primary reasons, I believe, that WSB does NOT do a lot of squats or deadlifts in their ME work. You can squat a LOT more than you can box squat. You can deadlift ALOT more than you can good morning. You are training the same muscles, and hard by doing box squats and GMs, but you are not stressing the body nearly as much, allowing for more frequent high intensity (90% RM) training.

It gets back to the volume that a basic trainee can follow vs. an intermediate. The intermediate is actually "better" at lifting than the newb, so he can't use as much volume. It is obvious that, despite being better conditioned, he simply can't do the same volume because as a newb, he was squatting 150 x 5 (And using, perhaps, 50% of his motor units) whereas as an intermediate, he is squatting 275 x 5 (and using, perhaps, 80% of his motor units)

the body simply can't handle as much. Hence weak point training. A weak point is something that, BY DEFINITION, you are "not as good at", and therefore, will generally provide less overall stress to the body and not tax your recovery quite so much.

granted, if deadlifts are a weak point and single-arm cable curls are a strong point, doing weak point training in this case will provide MORE stress to the system, but I digress.

I'd prefer a few rounds of SF 5x5 before advancing at all, and I'd prefer to see the logical SF 5x5 (3 or 4 times, preferably, as long as linear progress is being made - this provides time to determine TRUE weak points!) ---> DF 5x5 ---> WSB/5X5 ---> WS4BB, but it's not necessary, you could go directly from DF5x5 into WS4BB, or an SF5x5 into WSB/5x5. The keys to making that "jump" are:

1) Knowledge of how your body reacts to training...if you do <x> then <y> occurs, and you know this from personal experience, NOT because someone told it to you

2) Workload capacity - You can't jump into ANY of the 5x5 or WSB variations without some form of workload capacity training. If you've been doing low volume programs forever or, God forbid, nothing but HIT, and you try to jump right into these programs, you will get BURIED. That's why I like to recommend Rippetoe's program, even for someone who isn't necessarily new, but just does not have the workload capacity a 5x5. The Rippetoe is almost like a "warmup" for them and gradually gets them into shape. You are ready for a SF 5x5.

After an SF5x5 (preferably several iterations, to be honest), you COULD move on to an intermediate version of the WS4BB, which would include 3 workouts per week (ALWAYS floating the 4th workout to the next week), and slightly reduced volume from the basic WS4BB that I posted. Again, the WS4BB is pretty much what I have done, but I've been training 20 years. I kinda know what I am capable of after all that time.

If you have only been training for a few years, you probably don't have the experience to tackle something like that because you MUST be able to recognize when overreaching/overtraining is setting in, you MUST be able to recognize EXACTLY where your weak points are (note - it's more than just flexing in a mirror!), etc.

WS4BB is, as i stated, NOT a beginner's, NOR an intermediate's program, as it is written. The workload will be too much and will require a massive volume adjustment to the point where you might not really get anything out of it.

Hit up a SF5x5 for a few cycles, and you are in shape, and you are ready to jump to either a DF5x5 or possibly even WSB/5x5, AFTER A DELOAD *nudges VikingMan*

all that being said, this is advice coming from one guy who doesn't get to see your training to another guy who is training without supervision. If you have a guy who TRULY knows WTF he's doing, you could do "a version" of WS4BB as an intermediate with resounding success. The key is having a knowledgeable eye there with you for advisement.

You're an animal, bro.

*snarls*
*growls*
*drools on self*

[Andalite]

awesome post Kethnaab

Andalite

[latrell]

have you experimented with this routine, did you try it yourself??? if so any results?

[latrell]

oh nvm just read the top.

[kethnaab]

i'm going to do this program as soon as I get my nerve thingee healed (And get back to the states where I can train again!!!)

it is the logical progression of stuff I've been doing. I don't know if it will work better than the WS4BB that I've done, but I'm damn willing to bet I'll have fun finding out how close they are in effectiveness.

[latrell]

yeah keth man, ones my back heals (getting catscans on tuesday so we'll see) Im doing bb next frontier, then im either gonna do this or the 5x5, or maybe your West side for big bastards lol

[kethnaab]

WS4BB is westside for bodybuilders

although I like your interpretation better *cackle*

WS4BMF - Westside for Big Motherf....
WS4FB - Westside for Fat Bastards
WS4SAH - Westside for Stupid A$$holes

*laughs*

man, I need to get some sleep.

[latrell]

hahah wow i look like an idiot, but neways im still probably gonna do it lol.

[VikingMan]

*VikingMan rubs forehead and ribs simultaneously*

Deloading, yes sir. Message received.

Can I move straight into the Intensity/Deload phase of Madcow's Advanced 5X5? Low reps/sets, but still good intensity. 3 weeks or so? I've been on the SF5X5 this whole time.

That would be effective, right?

[kethnaab]

that's exactly what I'd do, Vike.

[dbcb314]

From what I have read of it looks interesting kethnabb... I didn't read the whole thing bc it is too early to do all that but definantly something I am going to put in my bookmarks to use in the future (currently doing a wsb routine, but when I get bored with that ima gonna do the df 5x5 first).

Nice work... why don't you PT for a living? wanna train me

[RavensFan2k3]

Soooo many really good programs, but dont know what to do! I'm doing a Westside routine right now, and my plan was for the summer to go back on the SF 5x5 but I'd replace rows with powercleans and I'll also replace the 8 rep back off set for bench with a set of doing as many reps as possible. I think we've talked much about this before. You think I should just stick with that plan?

[dbcb314]

Soooo many really good programs, but dont know what to do! I'm doing a Westside routine right now, and my plan was for the summer to go back on the SF 5x5 but I'd replace rows with powercleans and I'll also replace the 8 rep back off set for bench with a set of doing as many reps as possible. I think we've talked much about this before. You think I should just stick with that plan?

yes

[all pro]

Soooo many really good programs, but dont know what to do! I'm doing a Westside routine right now, and my plan was for the summer to go back on the SF 5x5 but I'd replace rows with powercleans and I'll also replace the 8 rep back off set for bench with a set of doing as many reps as possible. I think we've talked much about this before. You think I should just stick with that plan?

There is nothing wrong with cycleing between 2 or 3 programs, or more if need be. The trick is to find the ones that work well together and to know when to use them.

[kethnaab]

Soooo many really good programs, but dont know what to do! I'm doing a Westside routine right now, and my plan was for the summer to go back on the SF 5x5 but I'd replace rows with powercleans and I'll also replace the 8 rep back off set for bench with a set of doing as many reps as possible. I think we've talked much about this before. You think I should just stick with that plan?

sounds like a damn good plan to me bub.

[kethnaab]

*Bumped in response to some PMs*

[WSUcougs]

I am currently running SF 5x5 and was thinking of trying a cycle of HST afterwards. Would it be ok to try a Westside/5x5 program afterwards or would I want to run a few weeks of 5x5 again?

I figure it should be ok since HST ends in the 5 rep range.

[kethnaab]

HST is a fine program and would lead into the WSB/5x5 nicely.

My only worry is that if you've never done a deload or a SD before, you might lose conditioning leading into the WSB/5x5 and get buried.

easily "adjusted" by simply cutting back all sets by 1 during the first week, but nonetheless...

not a fan of full-on SD, I'd rather see a deload. That's my only real beef with HST.

[WSUcougs]

HST is a fine program and would lead into the WSB/5x5 nicely.

My only worry is that if you've never done a deload or a SD before, you might lose conditioning leading into the WSB/5x5 and get buried.

easily "adjusted" by simply cutting back all sets by 1 during the first week, but nonetheless...

not a fan of full-on SD, I'd rather see a deload. That's my only real beef with HST.

Yeah, I'm not a big fan of the idea either but at least for my first time running HST I might as well stick to what it says. If in the future I run HST again and realize I could deload during the SD time I may do that instead.

Thanks for the help!