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  1. #1
    Registered Bruin passerby's Avatar
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    Why is it bad to spike insulin before bedtime?

    I read this article on the bb.com site and it says:

    "If there was one word of caution about milk that I would give you, it would be to avoid milk late at night if you are at all carb-sensitive. Although milk does have a very low GI, it ranks very high on the insulin index (II). You don't want insulin spiked right before bed."

    Article source: http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/paul1.htm (scroll down to "Got a Word Of Caution?")

    Can any of you tell me why it's bad to spike insulin before bed by drinking milk? Also, I've read that when on a bulk (I'm bulking) drinking whole milk is a great idea. Would it be bad to drink fat free milk instead? (I'm an endomorph; worried about gaining too much fat w/ whole milk).

    Thanks.
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  2. #2
    Registered User Hercule's Avatar
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    an insulin spike leads to sleepyness. so unless you are going to bed for 'other' activities its GOOD.
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    Spiking insulin before going to bed is an ideal environment for fat storage.
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    nevigsawkufelgnisaton in10city's Avatar
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    A rapid drop in insulin (crash) usually makes you feel tired. But that's not the reason behind the no milk suggestion.

    An insulin spike is useful for driving nutrients into the muscles.

    It's fairly effective after long fasts in replenishing glycogen quickly. So you can use an insulin spike post workout to pump your muscles full of the energy and nutrients which you've depleted during your workout.

    But the flip side of it is that the insulin also stores the excess sugar as fat if it's not being shuttled into your hungry, depleted muscles.
    It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
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    i have heard that milk is great before bed cause of its casein protein.
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    nevigsawkufelgnisaton in10city's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by GJWrestle878
    i have heard that milk is great before bed cause of its casein protein.
    Casein protein is great before bed. Cottage cheese is one of the usual pre-bed feeding suggestions since it has casein and it typically has less sugar/carbs than milk does. Carbs or no carbs before bed - the choice, based upon your goals and nutritional needs, is yours.
    It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
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    well if the body can still store carbs for energy without turning to fat, whats wrong with a little carbs before bed?
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  8. #8
    nevigsawkufelgnisaton in10city's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by GJWrestle878
    well if the body can still store carbs for energy without turning to fat, whats wrong with a little carbs before bed?
    I've got no problem eating carbs before bed. I eat em' - every single night. I need them since I work out in the morning. They work for me. They may not work or be appropriate for everyone.

    Every other (1 out of 2) person will tell you not to eat them before bed.

    And there is a higher chance that they will be stored as fat if:
    1. Muscle glycogen is full
    2. Liver glycogen is full
    since there is no place for them to go.
    It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
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  9. #9
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    Wait, how can milk have a low GI but a high Insulin Index? I thought GI was the rate that it spikes insulin.
    Never waste an egg yolk

    "Breakfast is the most important meal of the morning." -Homer Simpson

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    Originally Posted by tracktion
    Wait, how can milk have a low GI but a high Insulin Index? I thought GI was the rate that it spikes insulin.
    Interesting reads:

    http://www.mendosa.com/insulin_index.htm

    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=283787
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  11. #11
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    Obes Rev. 2006 May;7(2):219-26.

    Glycaemic index effects on fuel partitioning in humans.

    Diaz EO, Galgani JE, Aguirre CA.

    Laboratory of Energy Metabolism and Stable Isotopes, Institute of Nutrition and Food Technology (INTA), University of Chile, Macul, Santiago, Chile.

    The purpose of this review was to examine the role of glycaemic index in fuel partitioning and body composition with emphasis on fat oxidation/storage in humans. This relationship is based on the hypothesis postulating that a higher serum glucose and insulin response induced by high-glycaemic carbohydrates promotes lower fat oxidation and higher fat storage in comparison with low-glycaemic carbohydrates. Thus, high-glycaemic index meals could contribute to the maintenance of excess weight in obese individuals and/or predispose obesity-prone subjects to weight gain. Several studies comparing the effects of meals with contrasting glycaemic carbohydrates for hours, days or weeks have failed to demonstrate any differential effect on fuel partitioning when either substrate oxidation or body composition measurements were performed. Apparently, the glycaemic index-induced serum insulin differences are not sufficient in magnitude and/or duration to modify fuel oxidation.
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    Skim Milk is low GI and will not initiate an insulin spike unless you make it chocolate milk or mix it with a powder that is high in sugar and even then, if the powder you mix it with is a protein powder, the protein will offset the insulin spike of the sugar some. In other words, drink your milk (skim) before bed or any other time you want to (except first thing in the morning when you want a fast-digestiing protein).

    If you could travel back in time to the Golden Age of bbing and could walk alongside the greats of Arnold, The Blond Bomber, and Franco, you'd see how much milk they used to drink (LOTS), along with lots of beef and eggs. In Pumping Iron, when Arnold said "milk is for babies, men drink beer" he was joking. Back in the 70s, my older brother used to drink a gallon a day, and this guy was jacked and ripped (and an all-state gymnast).
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    Originally Posted by in10city

    And there is a higher chance that they will be stored as fat if:
    1. Muscle glycogen is full
    2. Liver glycogen is full
    since there is no place for them to go.
    just curious, how much can each store?
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    nevigsawkufelgnisaton in10city's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by GJWrestle878
    just curious, how much can each store?
    On average in a 'full' state, the breakdown of where your glycogen is stored is 79% in the muscle - 14% in the liver - 7% in the blood.

    A 150 lb male 'typically' stores ~2000 calories which equates to ~1600 cals in the muscles as glycogen + ~320 cals in the liver as glycogen + ~80 cals in the blood as glucose.

    Of course, the actual amount is highly dependent on muscle mass.
    It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
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    Originally Posted by RADIRON
    Skim Milk is low GI and will not initiate an insulin spike unless you make it chocolate milk or mix it with a powder that is high in sugar and even then, if the powder you mix it with is a protein powder, the protein will offset the insulin spike of the sugar some. In other words, drink your milk (skim) before bed or any other time you want to (except first thing in the morning when you want a fast-digestiing protein).

    If you could travel back in time to the Golden Age of bbing and could walk alongside the greats of Arnold, The Blond Bomber, and Franco, you'd see how much milk they used to drink (LOTS), along with lots of beef and eggs. In Pumping Iron, when Arnold said "milk is for babies, men drink beer" he was joking. Back in the 70s, my older brother used to drink a gallon a day, and this guy was jacked and ripped (and an all-state gymnast).
    Milk is not high on the GI list but it elicits an greater insulinic response that we could expect...
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    So basically, if the only carbs I get at bedtime are from milk (and some almonds), and I'm on an empty stomach, the carbs in milk shouldn't become fat because my glycogen stores aren't full when I drink it. Is that right?
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    nevigsawkufelgnisaton in10city's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by passerby
    So basically, if the only carbs I get at bedtime are from milk (and some almonds), and I'm on an empty stomach, the carbs in milk shouldn't become fat because my glycogen stores aren't full when I drink it. Is that right?
    They could be full. Depends on what your diet and exercise have been like up to that point in the day.
    It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
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    Registered Loser monkeydan's Avatar
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    Carbs are very rarely stored as fat anyway. Most people don't even realise this, but it's an extremely complicated process to convert carbohydrates to fat and takes several days of high-carb overfeeding for it to take place. The process is De Novo Lipogenesis and it's unclear whether it even plays a big role in the deposition of fat.

    Basically, when you eat carbohydrates, fat oxidation is blunted. If the carbs have nowhere to go because muscle and liver glycogen stores are full, the carbs are burnt off for energy and any dietary fat is stored.
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    Originally Posted by passerby
    I read this article on the bb.com site and it says:

    "If there was one word of caution about milk that I would give you, it would be to avoid milk late at night if you are at all carb-sensitive. Although milk does have a very low GI, it ranks very high on the insulin index (II). You don't want insulin spiked right before bed."

    Article source: http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/paul1.htm (scroll down to "Got a Word Of Caution?")

    Can any of you tell me why it's bad to spike insulin before bed by drinking milk? Also, I've read that when on a bulk (I'm bulking) drinking whole milk is a great idea. Would it be bad to drink fat free milk instead? (I'm an endomorph; worried about gaining too much fat w/ whole milk).

    Thanks.
    To begin with, it amazes me that people actually have the shortsight to think a single component of a single meal in the day is responsible for packing on the fat, all because it's eaten near the time where your body's fat storage fairies beneath your bedsheets are ready pounce on your gut.

    Milk's high insulin index is not altered by its fat content. It's been demonstrated in recent research. Don't stress over insulin output prebed. This is one of the most outdated myths currently in existence. A molecule called acylation stimulating protein (ASP) is the primary regulator of lipid metabolism within the fat cells - not insulin, which has a multifunctional role in anabolism & anticatabolism. ASP on the other hand, can increase triacylglycerol synthesis in fat cells in the complete & utter absence of insulin, or carbs for that matter. ASP is the more direct mechanism towards adipose storage. Don't kid yourself into thinking you can control the cycle of adipose synthesis & oxidation by diligently cutting off carb intake after a certain point in the day.

    And this whole schnizzle about full liver & muscle glycogen + more carbs = fat storage is a crock of misunderstanding as well. Resting metabolic demands can easily put carbs beyond storage capacity to work for any number of functions. This isn't even mentioning the heightened physiologic demands in the aftermath exercise. FYI, the liver is the only organ in the body that can provide the blood with glucose. It is constantly at work, during both resting AND active metabolism.

    Incorrect advice on this subject is way too common.
    Last edited by alan aragon; 05-01-2006 at 10:36 AM.
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    Originally Posted by alan aragon
    Incorrect advice on this subject is way too common.
    thanks for saving the day alan! im glad you cleared this up
    Maybe it's hatred I spew, maybe it's food for the spirit
    Maybe it's beautiful music I made for you to just cherish
    But I'm debated disputed hated and viewed in America
    as a motherf**kin drug addict - like you didn't experiment?
    Now now, that's when you start to stare at who's in the mirror
    and see yourself as a kid again, and you get embarrased
    And I got nothin to do but make you look stupid as parents
    You f**kin do-gooders - too bad you couldn't do good at marriage!
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  21. #21
    nevigsawkufelgnisaton in10city's Avatar
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    Most are trying to say the same thing with sweeping generalizations, but to adequately determine if and/or how much pre-bed carbs are needed and tolerated, one needs to consider a person's unique training, nutrition, and metabolic demands.

    Personally, I need to eat some carbs before bed because
    1. I'm eating for tomorrow morning's workout
    2. I need another meal to meet my caloric needs
    3. My workouts are very strenuous

    For someone who sits around all day, goes to the gym on their lunch hour and does a couple of rounds on the Cybex machines while shooting the **** with their buddies, carbs before bed may not provide benefit unless, for example, they have not yet met their caloric needs for the day or they have a demanding metabolic rate, etc.
    Last edited by in10city; 05-01-2006 at 11:55 AM.
    It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
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  22. #22
    Registered User GJWrestle878's Avatar
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    anyone have any good reading sources about this topic, i am interested in learning more about what alan haas talked about.
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