Proof for Intelligent Design - The debate is over!

[1dayIWillBeBig]

Did anyone watch the Penn & Teller Bullsh!t episode on Creationism I posted?
If not, here it is again: http://www.vsocial.com/video/?d=21780 It may have gotten passed up with all the posting going on in this thread. It's really good!


*It may take a minute or two to load. it comes in kinda fuzzy at times as well*

What I found interesting was the lady who mentions that since Creationists take the Bible to be inerrant, the reason they try to poke holes in Evolution is that they see Evolution the same way... That is, if one little part is false then it all must be.
Basically, her argument is that creationists simply don't understand how science works. That is, self correcting rather than infallible.

[AnimalOnly]

Okay smart guy, how did You arrive at Creationism. Show me some facts.

First of all, calm down *******. I can't show you facts, I can tell you what I believe. It makes more sense to me to believe that there is an all powerful being, who by nature we cannot comprehend, than it does to believe something came from nothing. Essentially, they are the same argument, except that most atheists believe that everything can be explained by science, given enough time. But I fail to see how science will ever explain something coming from nothing. So I choose to believe that the answer lies beyond human reason and logic.

Creationsim IS stupid. If you're looking for me to accept our differences, you're not going to get it.

You're pathetic. I don't promote ID, I'm not a christian, or muslim, or anything else, so why the **** do you have such an attitude? Just because I don't believe what you do?

[1dayIWillBeBig]

First of all, calm down *******. I can't show you facts, I can tell you what I believe.

Then there is no point in debating the issue. One person uses facts and data. The other person uses there beliefs, feelings, or wild imagination.

There is ZERO reason to debate

But I fail to see how science will ever explain something coming from nothing. So I choose to believe that the answer lies beyond human reason and logic.?

Please don't go the "beyond our comprehension" route. It gets old

[Fitqb]

Then there is no point in debating the issue. One person uses facts and data. The other person uses there beliefs, feelings, or wild imagination.

There is ZERO reason to debate



Please don't go the "beyond our comprehension" route. It gets old

There's no point of me responding to him, because you literally took the words right out of my mouth! lol

He keeps rattling **** off about facts and scientists, but goes on to say that he doesn't have any and just "believes."

And f*ckin' Christ Almighty, the "beyond our comprehension" gets real old.

[Fitqb]

It makes more sense to me to believe that there is an all powerful being, who by nature we cannot comprehend, than it does to believe something came from nothing.

Good logic. Where did god come from? Or do you give vague, abstract concepts infinite ability because you don't know the answer?

[andres9606t]

Did anyone watch the Penn & Teller Bullsh!t episode on Creationism I posted?
If not, here it is again: http://www.vsocial.com/video/?d=21780 It may have gotten passed up with all the posting going on in this thread. It's really good!


*It may take a minute or two to load. it comes in kinda fuzzy at times as well*

What I found interesting was the lady who mentions that since Creationists take the Bible to be inerrant, the reason they try to poke holes in Evolution is that they see Evolution the same way... That is, if one little part is false then it all must be.
Basically, her argument is that creationists simply don't understand how science works. That is, self correcting rather than infallible.

Good video.

[Fitqb]

I've downloaded about all of the Penn and Teller shows... atheistic libertarians, they know their stuff.

[AnimalOnly]

Good logic. Where did god come from?

I repeat, a being who by nature we cannot comprehend.

Or do you give vague, abstract concepts infinite ability because you don't know the answer?

If that's how you want to put it. But for now, creationism seems to be the answer.

EDIT: And no I don't believe in Adam and Eve and all that other **** about the earth being 6,000 years old. I'm talking about the origin of the universe.

[NuggzTheNinja]

I've downloaded about all of the Penn and Teller shows... atheistic libertarians, they know their stuff.

How do you feel about their gun control episode?

[Fitqb]

How do you feel about their gun control episode?

lol, I was waiting for you to ask that.


I agree with them almost entirely on that. This might get a little off topic here, but I don't completely reject gun control because we need at least some protection as a society. Without ANY gun control, by definition, any convicted felon can purchase a gun. I don't want that. Even if they want a gun, let's make them get it the hard way. Another problem I have is that at gun shows, private dealers can sell any guns they want without a background check, in my local area anyway. Those guns have been traced to many killings and something needs to change.

I think people should be able to own guns though, if that's what you're looking for.

[NuggzTheNinja]

lol, I was waiting for you to ask that.


I agree with them almost entirely on that. This might get a little off topic here, but I don't completely reject gun control because we need at least some protection as a society. Without ANY gun control, by definition, any convicted felon can purchase a gun. I don't want that. Even if they want a gun, let's make them get it the hard way. Another problem I have is that at gun shows, private dealers can sell any guns they want without a background check, in my local area anyway. Those guns have been traced to many killings and something needs to change.

I think people should be able to own guns though, if that's what you're looking for.

This'll be my last post in this thread on the topic, as I'd like to keep it on, but:

Gun shows have to run background checks just like everyone else.

If they aren't running background checks, they're stupid, because cops go to gun shows, and if they see that go down, the dealer will have his liscense revolked and be arrested.

That said, though, I agree, I don't think felons should be able to buy decent stuff at a store. Let them buy garbage that they can't get serviced due to an obvious lack of serial #'s.

[Fitqb]

This'll be my last post in this thread on the topic, as I'd like to keep it on, but:

Gun shows have to run background checks just like everyone else.

If they aren't running background checks, they're stupid, because cops go to gun shows, and if they see that go down, the dealer will have his liscense revolked and be arrested.

That said, though, I agree, I don't think felons should be able to buy decent stuff at a store. Let them buy garbage that they can't get serviced due to an obvious lack of serial #'s.

Yeah, I was surprised too to find out that private dealers at gun shows in my local area (KC) are far less regulated than commercial dealers.

I think we are in full agreement. Protect the right to own a gun, but once you f*ck up, you lose that right and are dangerous to the public.

[Couldbebigga]

First of all, calm down *******. I can't show you facts, I can tell you what I believe. It makes more sense to me to believe that there is an all powerful being, who by nature we cannot comprehend, than it does to believe something came from nothing. Essentially, they are the same argument, except that most atheists believe that everything can be explained by science, given enough time. But I fail to see how science will ever explain something coming from nothing. So I choose to believe that the answer lies beyond human reason and logic.





You're pathetic. I don't promote ID, I'm not a christian, or muslim, or anything else, so why the **** do you have such an attitude? Just because I don't believe what you do?

Here's a question for you that I've been meaning to ask someone of your belief. If you find it unacceptable that the universe came from nothing or was "always around" then why do you find it acceptable that a "god" came from nothing or was "always around"?

[Fidelis]

It makes more sense to me to believe that there is an all powerful being, who by nature we cannot comprehend, than it does to believe something came from nothing.

In other words, it is easier for you to understand that a being which is completely incomprehensible made the universe? That's a bit of a paradox, isn't it?

How can you ever hope to understand this incomprehensible being? What's the difference between this incomprehensible supernatural being and an incomprehensible natural event?

[Fidelis]

Smells like a double standard to me. So science can have some gaps that it "will fill in someday". But creationists have to know everything right now. Why is one afforded to learn and grow and the other is not?

Creationism has no positive evidence, science does. Where's the double standard?

[1dayIWillBeBig]

How can you ever hope to understand this incomprehensible being? What's the difference between this incomprehensible supernatural being and an incomprehensible natural event?

The incomprehensible being comes with threats of eternal damnation and other forms of punishment when you dont adhere to it's word.

Thankfully the other doesn't do that. Or does it?

[MonsterG8r]

Here's a good link.


http://emporium.turnpike.net/C/cs/cartoon.htm

[MonsterG8r]

And another.

http://emporium.turnpike.net/C/cs/quest.htm

[JBDW]

And another.

http://emporium.turnpike.net/C/cs/quest.htm

So many of those arguments are arguments from ignorance that it isn't even funny. Not to mention the tired, repeated 'second law of thermodynamics' argument which has been debunked.

Also, while I am no evolutionist, I notice that some people are never satisfied with transitional fossils. To them, it is never transitional enough. Show them a point B between points A and C as an example of transition, and they want something between point A and B. Or point B and C.

[coontang]

And another.

http://emporium.turnpike.net/C/cs/quest.htm

Flaws in evolution aren't evidence for creationism.

[nail3r]

Flaws in evolution aren't evidence for creationism.

BINGO!!!

[andres9606t]

And another.

http://emporium.turnpike.net/C/cs/quest.htm

Whoever wrote that site has little to no understanding of any of the scientific principles involved. All of those arguments have been debunked countless times.

Especially funny was this section:

ASIDE: Evolutionists commonly object that the Second Law applies to closed, or isolated systems, and that the Earth is certainly not a closed system (it gets lots of raw energy from the Sun, for example). However, all systems, whether open or closed, tend to deteriorate. For example, living organisms are open systems but they all decay and die. Also, the universe in total is a closed system. To say that the chaos of the big bang has transformed itself into the human brain with its 120 trillion connections is a clear violation of the Second Law.

Anyone with even a cursory knowledge of thermodynamics would laugh their heads off at this. It's complete idiocy, and reeks of total scientific ignorance.

[Fidelis]

Here's a good link.


http://emporium.turnpike.net/C/cs/cartoon.htm

I can see how these arguments would convince someone who is uneducated in in the natural sciences. Of course, that is their purpose--to convince you before you become educated enough to see through them.

[AnimalOnly]

In other words, it is easier for you to understand that a being which is completely incomprehensible made the universe? That's a bit of a paradox, isn't it?

How can you ever hope to understand this incomprehensible being? What's the difference between this incomprehensible supernatural being and an incomprehensible natural event?

Interesting point.

The reason I think it's easier to believe in an incomprehensible supernatural being is because it's so hard to believe that science, and ordinary people, will ever find an answer as to how something came from nothing at the beginning of the universe.

And somebody said I believe this because of the threat of going to hell....
Well, I'm not a member of any organized religion so no, that's not true.
I was an atheist for 12 years, but after serious consideration I think it's highly plausible that a higher being exists.

[MonsterG8r]

I can see how these arguments would convince someone who is uneducated in in the natural sciences. Of course, that is their purpose--to convince you before you become educated enough to see through them.

Typical evolutionist answer....never good enough. So with your vast knowledge of science please answer this; Which evolved first: 1. The brain which is the control center for the body 2. The lungs, which take in oxygen to the bloodstream
3. The heart which transports blood with oxygen to all cells 4. Arteries which take blood away from the heart 5. Veins which take blood back to the heart
6. The kidneys which cleanse the blood 7. The urinary tract which elimates toxins that the kidneys filter 8. your guilty conscience

[1dayIWillBeBig]

Interesting point.

The reason I think it's easier to believe in an incomprehensible supernatural being is because it's so hard to believe that science, and ordinary people, will ever find an answer as to how something came from nothing at the beginning of the universe.

I don't understant how you can believe in what you yourself, claim is inconprehensible. To believe because it is easier, comes off as lazy and shallow.

To believe just for the sake of believing is belittling your mind and setting you up to being biased towards other viewpoints. If you don't know, you don't know. I don't know for certain. But science is coming along.

The 'ordinary' people you speak of, have done a pretty damn good job these past several centuries.

[coontang]

Typical evolutionist answer....never good enough. So with your vast knowledge of science please answer this; Which evolved first: 1. The brain which is the control center for the body 2. The lungs, which take in oxygen to the bloodstream
3. The heart which transports blood with oxygen to all cells 4. Arteries which take blood away from the heart 5. Veins which take blood back to the heart
6. The kidneys which cleanse the blood 7. The urinary tract which elimates toxins that the kidneys filter 8. your guilty conscience

Doesn't matter. Your fairy tales are still wrong.

[farmerlee]

Creationism has no positive evidence, science does. Where's the double standard?

I'd have to say that the order and design we see in the universe is positive evidence towards creationism. I reckon it takes more faith to believe that it all came about by chance than it does to believe that it was created by a god.

[andres9606t]

I'd have to say that the order and design we see in the universe is positive evidence towards creationism. I reckon it takes more faith to believe that it all came about by chance than it does to believe that it was created by a god.

Came about by chance? Do you even understand the first thing about evolution? Come on, they teach this stuff as part of any introductory level biology class. Ugh. The ignorance on this forum amazes me.

[Stinker]

It makes more sense to me to believe that there is an all powerful being, who by nature we cannot comprehend, than it does to believe something came from nothing.

False dychotomy

But I fail to see how science will ever explain something coming from nothing.

Straw man

I appreciate the fact that you are willing to say that this is your belief rather than trying to pretend you know something you don't, but if you think that the only alternative to there being a creator is something arrising out of nothing then you are mistaken. If you do not know what the alternatives to belief in a creator are you can ask, but you are only fooling yourself if you wish to believe that atheists must believe the universe came from nothing.
There are other explanations, in fact the only time I have ever come across the concept of the universe coming from nothing is when I have encountered Christians like yourself trying to argue for their world view by saying that it makes more sense than what they assume to be the only alternative.