"Fat-Fast"??

[slaino]

Anyone have any ideas, suggestions, or experiences with doing the "fat-fast" in order to kick start ketosis? I got off track this weekend and want to be in ketosis by Tuesday . . .also if anyone has meal ideas for this..very helpful..thanks :-)

[Man2kx]

Fat-Fast?

It wont be difficult to get into Ketosis by Tuesday if you train hard and do lots of cardio.

[Alex88]

Wtf is a fat-fast?

And contrary to popular opinion (and I know I will get flamed for this), ketosis does not occur based on the amount of dietary fat you intake. Ketosis occurs from carbohydrate reduction. Eating 300 grams of fat or 100 grams of fat with the same level of carbohydrates yields no difference in the time it takes for you to enter ketosis. The process will speed up by depleting liver glycogen through cardio , or raising concentrations of FFAs in the bloodstream by depleting muscle glycogen through high volume resistance exercises.

[slaino]

Wtf is a fat-fast?

And contrary to popular opinion (and I know I will get flamed for this), ketosis does not occur based on the amount of dietary fat you intake. Ketosis occurs from carbohydrate reduction. Eating 300 grams of fat or 100 grams of fat with the same level of carbohydrates yields no difference in the time it takes for you to enter ketosis. The process will speed up by depleting liver glycogen through cardio , or raising concentrations of FFAs in the bloodstream by depleting muscle glycogen through high volume resistance exercises.

Sorry, "Fat-Fast" is designed for moments when fat loss through ketogenic dieting has plateaued or the dieter has difficulty getting into ketosis. It involves almost pure fat intake daily not to exceed 1,000 to 1,200 calories for 1 to 3 days (max.) Again, it's not designed for muscle sparing, but rather for drastic calorie reduction combined with carb restriction to speed up reaching ketosis.

[Alex88]

Sorry, "Fat-Fast" is designed for moments when fat loss through ketogenic dieting has plateaued or the dieter has difficulty getting into ketosis. It involves almost pure fat intake daily not to exceed 1,000 to 1,200 calories for 1 to 3 days (max.) Again, it's not designed for muscle sparing, but rather for drastic calorie reduction combined with carb restriction to speed up reaching ketosis.

That's stupid. You'd enter ketosis just as fast with 1000 - 1200 kcal of pure protein, and retain muscle in the process.

[Man2kx]

Wtf is a fat-fast?

And contrary to popular opinion (and I know I will get flamed for this), ketosis does not occur based on the amount of dietary fat you intake. Ketosis occurs from carbohydrate reduction. Eating 300 grams of fat or 100 grams of fat with the same level of carbohydrates yields no difference in the time it takes for you to enter ketosis. The process will speed up by depleting liver glycogen through cardio , or raising concentrations of FFAs in the bloodstream by depleting muscle glycogen through high volume resistance exercises.

However, in order for this diet to succeed, you must consume fat in larger quantities than protein so the body tags it as a primary source for fuel. Imagine if we consumed a little fat and got the majority of our calories from protein? Do I even need to describe what will happen to the body?

Can't really do Keto without protein and strictly fat, you will lose muscle.
Can't really do Keto without fat and strictly protein, you will lose muscle.
Can't really do Keto with much more protein than fat, you will lose muscle.
Can't really do Keto without fat and protein, you are barely taking in any carbs, you will lose muscle. This happens to be called Anorexia.



When the body consumes fat on a large basis in absence of carbs and glycogen, it will opt for a secondary fuel source. Body fat is the last thing the body wants to tap into since it's a survival mechanism. Eating more fat, little carbs, and protein will tag the fat as a primary source of energy. Your body will know to immediately start releasing Ketones.

[Alex88]

However, in order for this diet to succeed, you must consume fat in larger quantities than protein so the body tags it as a primary source for fuel. Imagine if we consumed a little fat and got the majority of our calories from protein? Do I even need to describe what will happen to the body?

Can't really do Keto without protein and strictly fat, you will lose muscle.
Can't really do Keto without fat and strictly protein, you will lose muscle.
Can't really do Keto with much more protein than fat, you will lose muscle.
Can't really do Keto without fat and protein, you are barely taking in any carbs, you will lose muscle. This happens to be called Anorexia.



When the body consumes fat on a large basis in absence of carbs and glycogen, it will opt for a secondary fuel source. Body fat is the last thing the body wants to tap into since it's a survival mechanism. Eating more fat, little carbs, and protein will tag the fat as a primary source of energy. Your body will know to immediately start releasing Ketones.

I can debunk this easily, but I'm afraid the keto forums might raise hellfire against me for doing so.

[Man2kx]

I can debunk this easily, but I'm afraid the keto forums might raise hellfire against me for doing so.

As long as you have proof you have nothing to worry about . I think I can say the participants of the Keto forum are quite mature.

[slaino]

I can debunk this easily, but I'm afraid the keto forums might raise hellfire against me for doing so.

I'm not advocating this method as the best method for sparing muscle, but it has been proven to speed glycogen depletion and increase the rate at which one reaches ketosis. It's obvious: If simple carb restriction leads to ketosis and knowing that protein is converted to glucose with 58% efficiency, then it stands to reason that ingestion of pure dietary and healthy fats, while not safe long-term, does signal the body to release ketones faster. Again, it's been proposed as a "jump-start" to get out of a plateau - nothing else. :-)

[Alex88]

Okay here goes:

a) The basis for the keto diet is that your body's substrate utilization is based on the specific macronutrient you intake (i.e. Your body burns fat if you intake dietary fat with no carbohydrates etc...). This is not true:

i) In studies of pure starvation diets (0 kcal per day), ketosis is achieved, evidenced by high concentrations of free fatty acids in the bloodstream. A combination of glycolysis from muscle tissue and stored body fat occurs in obese individuals, to the tune of 80% fat and 20% muscle lost. Of course the number gets skewed more in favour of muscle lost as bodyfat availability drops. The key here is there is 0 carbohydrate intake

ii) In studies of Protein Sparing Modified Fasts (PSMF) where protein is provided at 1 - 1.5 g / pound of LBM, and nothing else is ingested (0 carbohydrates, 0 fat), concentrations of FFA is high in the blood stream. Gluconeogenesis does not occur. Nitrogen retention is high and muscle catabolized for glucose is minimal. The necessary anti-catabolic environment is created by elevated concentrations of FFA and sufficient protein intake to cover the few grams of amino acids converted to glucose via gluconegenesis. Extensive studies are done (search on Pubmed for actual figures), or read logs here on bodybuilding.com and bodyrecomposition.com etc... The key is once again 0 carbohydrate intake necessary to increase fatty acid concentrations

iii) Standard ketosis diets where fat intake is up to the tune of 60%. Once again, reduced carbohydrate intake


Bodyfat is intended to be catabolized in times of caloric deficit. It makes no evolutionary sense for the body to magically "switch" to fat burning only when dietary fat is ingested.

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b) Exception to the rule: excessive catabolism of muscle tissue only occurs after severe glycogen depletion. However:

Reduced carbohydrate intake depletes around 20% of glycogen levels in the human body (mostly liver). Add in aerobic exercise, around 70% of available glycogen will be depleted. This corresponds to around 70 mmol/kg, as per the Keto book.

Any further depletion will occur with weight training, until the body reaches a point where performance is impaired. You can go even further, down to about 15 mmol/kg, where you'll be completely exhausted, and just about unable to perform anaerobic activity. It is only at any level < ~40 mmol/kg, and the body starts catabolizing muscle and increasing its use of protein as a source of fuel.


c) Excerpt from the keto book:
"The breakdown of muscle protein is as much hormonally controlled by low insulin, falling testosterone, high cortisol and catecholamines as by nutrient availability.

However, there is an alternate way to limit the use of body protein when carbohydrates are being severely restricted. As few as 15 grams of carbohydrates per day has been shown to limit nitrogen loss and 50 grams of carbohydrate per day severely limits the need for the body to use amino acids for gluoconeogenesis. Not only will it maintain blood glucose and insulin at a slightly higher level (thus inhibiting cortisol release), it directly provides glucose for the brain, limiting the need to break down protein in the first place.

Note the slight provision of carbohydrates prevents gluconeogenesis, not dietary fat intake

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When all's said and done, I agree that high fat is important in a keto diet. However, it's importance lines in the tune of a) slowing digestion b) bumping calories up to an appreciable and manageable level in dieting c) making food more edible during the diet. It just doesn't have to be 60% for it to work. If you can manage 30%, which would mean fewer calories ingested and more of a deficit, then power unto you. The diet would just be more hellish, that's all.

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If you need pubmed studies referencing controlled groups and measured plasma FFA levels, muscle retention etc... you'd have to wait for me to get back home in 3 days where I have the abstracts and papers saved.

[MCEpidemic]

That's fascinating, Alex. I keep hearing these horrible side effects of ketosis on "AtkinsExposed" and what not, mostly from the high fat levels. So I can achieve ketosis with leaner meats and eggs?

[gabster21]

Lets take Alex's 30% fat diet theory and apply it, to myself for example.

CurrentStats: 5'11, 200 lbs, 13%bf, pretty active
Approx BMR: 200 *15 = 3000 cal
Keto BMR: 3000 - 300 = 2700 cal

Ok, now lets see what my daily caloric breakdown with this revised keto diet should be (neglecting trace carbs for simplicity):

Fat (30%): 810 cal = 90 grams
Pro (70%): 1890 cal = 472.5 grams

That's a bit less than 100g of protein per meal for 5 meals a day.. Do we even need to state how absurd this sounds? I doubt it.

What's that? I don't need that much protein? Ok, let's half it..
Fat (30%): 405 cal = 45 grams
Pro (70%): 945 cal = 237 grams
Total Calories: 1350 cal

Does that seem realistic to anyone? Didn't think so..

[Alex88]

Lets take Alex's 30% fat diet theory and apply it, to myself for example.

CurrentStats: 5'11, 200 lbs, 13%bf, pretty active
Approx BMR: 200 *15 = 3000 cal
Keto BMR: 3000 - 300 = 2700 cal

Ok, now lets see what my daily caloric breakdown with this revised keto diet should be (neglecting trace carbs for simplicity):

Fat (30%): 810 cal = 90 grams
Pro (70%): 1890 cal = 472.5 grams

That's a bit less than 100g of protein per meal for 5 meals a day.. Do we even need to state how absurd this sounds? I doubt it.

What's that? I don't need that much protein? Ok, let's half it..
Fat (30%): 405 cal = 45 grams
Pro (70%): 945 cal = 237 grams
Total Calories: 1350 cal

Does that seem realistic to anyone? Didn't think so..

Read what I said?

When all's said and done, I agree that high fat is important in a keto diet. However, it's importance lines in the tune of a) slowing digestion b) bumping calories up to an appreciable and manageable level in dieting c) making food more edible during the diet.

It's not theory. It's science.
I am by no means saying to change what you are doing on a keto diet. Just stating that the mechanism of it's action is through carbohydrate reduction, not dietary fat ingestion (which is still very important). Like I said, don't change what you are doing. Just don't do a retarded "fat-fast" in hopes of entering ketosis faster.

[gabster21]

^^I agree with that part.

However you did state that "If you can manage 30%, which would mean fewer calories ingested and more of a deficit, then power unto you. "
A diet with less than 60% in fats and no carbs is not a CKD anymore since the muscle sparing benefit is inexistant.

It doesn't sound like you're advocating that, but just wanted to clear that part up for anyone who might still be confused.

Gabster.

[Man2kx]

Correct Alex, you've touched the mark on keto-based diets.

The purpose of a CKD is to reduce muscle catabolization, with the most efficiency possible. Ketosis can be achieved by a number of methods, however the only

a)
i) Correct, Ketosis is achieved in an inefficient manner contrary to what we would want. Muscle is lost.
ii) Correct, however, muscle catabolized for glucose is only minimal should there be enough body fat available for to prevent this from happening. Reduced stores of body fat will further increase gluconeogenesis.
iii) Correct, reduced carbohydrate intake, along with fat as 60% of the diet itself will promote Ketosis and an efficient way to consume calories for several reasons (higher concentration of calories per gram, better tasting, cheaper, etc.).

b) Correct, and this point provides proof why we opt for doing a Cyclic Ketogenic Diet, for these reasons listed here.

c) Correct, an efficient Ketogenic-based diet will impose that it is not a no-carb diet, but more accurately described as a low-carb diet. CKD has never been intended to be no-carb, imagine the outcome.


Final thoughts:

An efficient and successful Keto-based diet (one that is muscle sparing and cost efficient) would require fat as a source of calories for several reasons mentioned in a.iii of my post. While desired results can be achieved eating strictly protein, this only goes to a certain point as those with much less body fat do not benefit from this method at all because the body does not want to completely get rid of its survival mechanism.

The CKD is a bodybuilding diet and when you look at those individuals who used it to compete, they ate their fat with their protein not because it was cheaper (these guys could have very well afforded to purchase lean cut steaks and eat them all day), but because they are going down to very low levels of body fat and in order to ensure that their diets are most muscle sparing, they could not eat strictly protein (with 0 carbs and 0 fat present in diet). Eating a low carb diet, complete with protein and fat will ensure that most muscle is spared throughout the process. In all calorie-restricted diets, it's imposible to prevent muscle loss, but it can be limited. Hence, a compliation of much information has led to the CKD. Many of those reasons can be found between this post and Alex88's post.


Good job on the post Alex88, it confirms many things. Hopefully people will use it as a resource.