Squats or Smith Machine, you be the judge.

[AmericanBulldog]

What the title says, what would you prefer better. Squats on the free weight or on the smith machine?

[ad$]

you will find nearly everyone will say freeweights.....A-eigther because they genually do prefere them to smith machine squats or B- because smith machine squats on this forum are normally looked down apon compared to freeweight squats, so most people will go with the trend.
i personally prefere normal freeweight squats.

[bja5783]

I prefer freeweights, however I think smith machines do have a place in some workout programs. For instance, I am trying to train myself to squat lower (I was doing parallel, and am working on ATG), so I'm using Smith Machines to make myself get used to the motion, and feel more comfortable going all the way down with lots of weight on my back. However, once I get comfortable enough on the smith machine, and anc ATG squat on the machine, what I parallel squated freeweight, I'll switch back over to pure freeweight.

If you looked at my routine right now, you'd think I prefered smith machine, but I actually dont.

[AmericanBulldog]

I prefer freeweights, however I think smith machines do have a place in some workout programs. For instance, I am trying to train myself to squat lower (I was doing parallel, and am working on ATG), so I'm using Smith Machines to make myself get used to the motion, and feel more comfortable going all the way down with lots of weight on my back. However, once I get comfortable enough on the smith machine, and anc ATG squat on the machine, what I parallel squated freeweight, I'll switch back over to pure freeweight.

If you looked at my routine right now, you'd think I prefered smith machine, but I actually dont.

Hey bja5783 try looking at this. It would probably help you with a more deeper squat on the free weight.http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/berardi73.htm

[DieHollywoodDie]

What the title says, what would you prefer better. Squats on the free weight or on the smith machine?

will people please stop posting these bull**** "which do you prefer smith vs. free....free vs. machine" etc posts? go to the search function at the top and you will find tons of these stupid ass posts.


either way, since i dont want this post to be a waste, i prefer squats with free weights.

[Adidas2489]

I prefer freeweights, however I think smith machines do have a place in some workout programs. For instance, I am trying to train myself to squat lower (I was doing parallel, and am working on ATG), so I'm using Smith Machines to make myself get used to the motion, and feel more comfortable going all the way down with lots of weight on my back. However, once I get comfortable enough on the smith machine, and anc ATG squat on the machine, what I parallel squated freeweight, I'll switch back over to pure freeweight.

If you looked at my routine right now, you'd think I prefered smith machine, but I actually dont.

thats strange, exact same thing is going on with me right now. I'm probably one of the most unflexible people in the entire world, so i can barely make it to parrallel with freeweigths squats. i talked to a trainer at my gym and he said i should practice getting low on the smith machine first, so im gonna start doing that

[farmerlee]

I never liked the smith machine beacuse the bar moves in a fixed motion which never felt right to me, on pretty much every free weight exercise you do the bar never moves in an exact straight path.

[hawkjl82]

I prefer free weights but when squats are in my routine I have to do them with a Smith machine because of a bad right knee. When I do squats my knee tends to lock in the middle of the movement so I use a Smith machine for assistance. However I don't usually do regular squats because of the knee problem.

[getgot211]

from here

However, I am certainly open for learning. And very interested in
how the board experts would approach this essay.
http://www.exrx.net/ExInfo/SmithSquat2.html

And possibly publish a rebuttal of their own. Until then, no one can claim
to be all-knowing on this matter. Can they?

The assertion that the Smith Machine (SM) squat does not impose any additional risk on the user when compared to a traditional, free bar (FB ) squat is erroneous and does not take into account for the external linear forces (valgus forces) translated onto the soft tissues and supporting structures on the spine, particularly the lumbar and cervical spine.

While the original anonymous author attempts to discredit this notion and puts forth that “The squat for example (whether using a barbell or a Smith-machine) is a combination of rotational movement at the ankle, knee, and hip joints, with minimal spinal deflection at the articulation with the pelvis,” this is incorrect: while there is minimal ‘spinal deflection’ of the lumbar spine in a FB due to the ability of the bar itself to move with the natural squatting motion of the axial skeleton, the SM does not allow natural lumbar extension to occur in negotiation of the fixed loading of the SM, forcing a lumbar flexion and/or associated sacral extension. When he/she (for simplicity, I will refer to the author from this point forward as ‘he’ for convenience) contends afterwards that “(t)he nature of the final overt movement that is expressed in no way alters the rotational nature of the movement of the limbs about the joint axes that combine to produce it,” he once again is grossly incorrect. The fixed plane of linear motion caused by the travel of the bar, which does not correspond to the combined rotational needs of the intervertebral joints of the spine, particularly L5-S1, the sacroiliac joint of the pelvis, the interaction of the acetabulum and femor at the hip, and the tibiofemoral joint of the knee, will produce additional sheering forces at the joints as well as improper biomechanical length/tension relationships that will increase injury risk, from both the generated stress as well as from the mechanical inability of the associated muscle structure to produce protective force in joint stabilization in reaction to the added valgus forces.

For instance, the arthrokinematics of the tibiofemoral joint in the closed-chain position will normally place greater stress on the posterior cruciate ligament; however, this will be coupled with a preferred initiation of knee flexion and posterior pelvic tilt within the early phase of the SM in order to reduce sheering pressure on the cervical and lumbar spine as the spinal erectors contend with the linear downward opposing force of the weighted bar which does not allow for spinal extension (which would oppose the bar in a combined sagital and frontal plane vs. the frontally directed movement of the unilaterally directed SM). This is a basic disruption of normal Lumbopelvic Rhythm which increases the external moment arm at the point of greatest weakness, decreasing the natural length-tension relationship of the spinal erectors and hip extensors, and increasing the stress incurred on the apophyseal discs and joints. Further, the force vector arm is now distributed through the patella tendon as well as the PCL, which can cause irritation or disruption of the patella over chronic exercise in this manner. Further, upon biomechanical analysis of the movement, it can be seen that the hip extensors, which would normally produce spinal extension, will now initiate knee extension due to an active insufficiency about the posterior pelvis caused by the excessive hip flexion of the unnatural ROM of the SM. This will force the spinal erectors to produce a greater % of total torque to produce the preferred movement, which are now also placed in a poor length-tension relationship as well as total contention with a fixed y-axis valgus force that does not allow lateral translation of movement, which is naturally produced through the arch of motion of the spine during extension.

This is not conjuncture, this is fact.

The unknown author contends that “There is very little that is "natural" about the majority of movements that Strength Athletes utilize in the pursuit of their training in so far as they do not occur outside of the training environment” also indicates minimal understanding of the activities of daily living (ADL) and the biomechanical analysis of these movements. The conventional deadlift, Romanian deadlift, back squat, front squat, lunge, pushup, bent-over row, humeral internal and external rotation, and bicep curl are all vital demands of ADL’s and industrial ADL’s and are generally the cornerstones of any quality weight training regiment. In fact, an analysis of the basic length-tension relationships of the agonist of each individual exercise, as they have biologically evolved, distinctly indicate that the body had been specifically developed to produce movements exactly adhering to these exercises. They are simply a duplication of natural movement. To contend that a deadlift or a squat, which are manipulations of external loading in three dimensional space, with all three planes of motion allowed if desired, is the same thing as a fixed motion, uniplanar mechanical exercise with a forced and dictated ROM is simply ridiculous. As far as the contention that ‘Strength Athletes’ do not utilize natural motion, strength athletes, in my professional opinion, would be classified as either 1) Olympic Weightlifters, 2) Powerlifters, or 3) Strongman competitors. I ask anyone to show me a strength and conditioning routine from any athlete found in these three categories that uses a Smith Machine.

The unknown author then goes on to discuss potential injuries that may occur and how they can be avoided. The discussion following is not reflective of the particular biomechanics of a SM, but rather of a FB. For instance, he mentions:
“By far the most common error, and the source of most complaints about back strain, is that of allowing the pelvis to travel too far to the rear as the trainee descends towards the bottom of the exercise stroke such that the anterior angle between the floor and the vertical axis of the trunk is greatly decreased. The mechanical effect of this is the same as that of leaning too far forward when squatting with a barbell in as much as the moment arm (perpendicular distance between the applied force vector [in this case that of gravity acting vertically downward on the bar] and the axis of rotation) in the lever system consisting of the spinal column, the pelvis, and their articulation is greatly increased, which multiplies the resulting torque acting about the joint axis. This amplified torque must not only be overcome in order to reverse the motion of the bar and execute the positive phase of the exercise stroke, but must also be continuously matched in order to maintain proper spinal alignment. Though there is nothing inherently wrong with bending forward at the waist while under load (as in a stiff legged deadlift, hyperextension, or good-morning) the loads typically utilized when squatting are far beyond the abilities of most people to safely handle in this way.”
However, he once again negates the fact that in a fixed vertical motion of the bar, the mechanical effect is not the same at all. While the bar is able to move horizontally as well as vertically in squat, Romanian deadlift, or conventional deadlift, which makes the resistance contingent on body positioning, the SM forces the body to be contingent on bar/resistance positioning. His analysis of movement is not applicable to his argument, and only furthers the argument against his assertion.

He ends with “(t)he bottom line is that the Smith-machine squat does not pose any inherent dangers to either the knees or the spinal column provided it is performed correctly, and no one to my knowledge has ever proven otherwise either in theory or through clinical trials (though "expert" opinions abound); but I invite anyone to do so if they can.”

Actually, it’s all there…you just have to know where to look:

“Flexion-Distraction Injury of the Thoracolumbar Spine During Squat Exercise With the Smith Machine” The American Journal of Sports Medicine 32:1962-1967 (2004)

References:

“Biomechanical Model and Evalation of a Linear Motion Squat Type Exercise” Abelbrack, Kevin. The Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research, Vol. 16, No. 4.

“Avoiding Lumbar Spine Injury During Resistence Training” Durall, Christopher, et. Al. The Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research, Vol. 27, No. 4

“Kinesiology of the Musculoskeletal System: Foundations for Physical Rehabilitation” Donald A. Neumann

“Biomechanical Basis of Human Movement” Hamill, Joseph, et. Al.

[ughsassin]

You're definitely short changing yourself on a smith machine. I started out on there to get a decent squat before I went to play with the big boys, but squatting free weights I lifted heavier and had more fun. You can always bail in the rack anyway since there's those bars down there, and I went to failure last week. I don't know why anyone would want that straight up and down movement. So unnatural.

[hawkjl82]

You're definitely short changing yourself on a smith machine. I started out on there to get a decent squat before I went to play with the big boys, but squatting free weights I lifted heavier and had more fun. You can always bail in the rack anyway since there's those bars down there, and I went to failure last week. I don't know why anyone would want that straight up and down movement. So unnatural.

Like I said I don't even have squats in my current routine because of my knee locking up on me. I do a series of other exercises which I can go heavy on and that give me a good burn. I had fallen out of working out for about 8 months and just got back on track a couple of weeks ago. So, maybe after 8-12 weeks on this current routine and being back on my supplements, I'll be able to work squats back into my routine since my knee will have adjusted to exercising again.

[ughsassin]

I didn't mean you or anyone specifically, I just mean that in general that's my opinion.

[swordfish7]

this is kind of off topic but somebody in this discussion mentioned ATG squats. I've seen this term but i am not familiar with it. could someone explain what these are, how they are performed, how they differ from regular parallel squats, specific safety measures etc...? thanks!

[Nails]

ATG=ass to grass. The definition varies but the point is go as low as possible with your hamstrings contacting your calves.

[AaronX]

Free weights full squats are my favourite.

[spirit3530]

are you kidding me... I didn't even read the other posts. Smith machine squats are the last... bro if you are gonna ATTEMPT to bodybuild you have to put in time in the back squat. Seriously this is an April Fools joke gone crazy.