Stacking Supplements

[Rolling_thunder]

Conflicting information is fogging my selection process... an article on this site states that creatine and thermogenics shouldn't be stacked, because they will work against each other (creatine helps water retention in muscle cells, while the stimulants in thermo's act as a diuretic, therby defeating the purpose of each). It sort of makes sense, but if it's true, then I'm wasting time and money on both. I'm hoping that someone who has first hand knowledge (not just conjecture) about a lot of stacking issues. Here's the article:

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/johnforb.htm

[DawggieDawg69]

Yes that is true....but there are many new creatine products out there that will work while cutting. Ive heard that v12 will be a decent one if you cut. Creatine Titrate by ids is great while cutting and you wont bloat up either.

[cjszip]

mmm... i've got some swole left over and i'm saving it till I cut, i amagin v12 would be good too though.

-cj

[CHUCK DIESEL]

they say don't take creatine with thermogens because specifically caffeine makes you lose water. but any water lost from caffeine is not in the cell, creatine makes you hold water in the cell. I get good results from thermogens (not going to metion the name of my product because someone had a fit last time I said something about something I make) pre-workout and creatine after the workout. I take creatine only on workout days, or days when I am up to 1 or 2 am working with ALA and Ribose

you do not need creatine on non workout days, or before the workout because you are not low on ATP at the time (ATP is a molecule of energy produced from glycogen, NAD, oxygen).

Creatine works by giving up a phposphate: by binding to ADiP (reduced ATriP) you are not going to reduce enough ATP sitting on your but at work, so only use it after the workout. I do about 10g with 10g ribose and 10-15 glutamine. If you want to gain alot of water weight use more salt. Loading on creatine is supplement industy talk for "use it all up and buy some more real soon."

use creatine pyruvate, great for energy and ATP regeneration.

What makes since is using creatine to recycle ATP when it is reduced to ADP (after about 12min of intense training), not as a 5X a dat laxative. you want to take a crap, eat a backed potato.


anyway summary: creatine with thermogens don't do anything. I've been doing it since about sept 95 after I left basic training. If you eat alot of red meat or fish you get 2-10g creatine/day...... no one has ever said don't take themogens with meat or fish.......

if the caffeine is making you lose water, then you may not think the creatine is working and you may not buy anymore

[cjszip]

Originally posted by CHUCK DIESEL
you do not need creatine on non workout days, or before the workout because you are not low on ATP at the time (ATP is a molecule of energy produced from glycogen, NAD, oxygen).

Creatine works by giving up a phposphate: by binding to ADiP (reduced ATriP) you are not going to reduce enough ATP sitting on your but at work, so only use it after the workout. I do about 10g with 10g ribose and 10-15 glutamine. If you want to gain alot of water weight use more salt. Loading on creatine is supplement industy talk for "use it all up and buy some more real soon."

What makes since is using creatine to recycle ATP when it is reduced to ADP (after about 12min of intense training), not as a 5X a dat laxative. you want to take a crap, eat a backed potato.


anyway summary: creatine with thermogens don't do anything. I've been doing it since about sept 95 after I left basic training. If you eat alot of red meat or fish you get 2-10g creatine/day...... no one has ever said don't take themogens with meat or fish.......

if the caffeine is making you lose water, then you may not think the creatine is working and you may not buy anymore

get your facts straight before making comments and directing useage and information toward specific supplements.

-cj

[CHUCK DIESEL]

cj, what the hell are you talking about, my fact are straight I mean that the combo does not do anything negative, like once making the other ineffective. So what does get your facts straight mean, where did I contradict myself?

- take creatine after you deplete ATP

-can take same day as thermogens, I have only used thermogen before the workout and creatine after because there is no reason to take creatine 30min before I (I not you) go to the gym.

-you can follow the directions on anything you buy thats why they are there. I don't remeber holding a gun to anyones had and saying don't take creatine with blablabla, I just said how I use it and what I use it with, and why, so really what are you talking about?

[cjszip]

Originally posted by CHUCK DIESEL
cj, what the hell are you talking about, my fact are straight I mean that the combo does not do anything negative, like once making the other ineffective. So what does get your facts straight mean, where did I contradict myself?

- take creatine after you deplete ATP

-can take same day as thermogens, I have only used thermogen before the workout and creatine after because there is no reason to take creatine 30min before I (I not you) go to the gym.

-you can follow the directions on anything you buy thats why they are there. I don't remeber holding a gun to anyones had and saying don't take creatine with blablabla, I just said how I use it and what I use it with, and why, so really what are you talking about?

- the whole reasoning behind loading creatine is to increase the amount stored in your muscle, after your muscles are fully saturated the maintainance phase begins. obviously this means a certain amount of creatine is taken daily to maintain the amount in the muscle.

-yes, some people do infact take them both at the same time. but caffine being a diuretic, caution should be taken

-you made statements as though they are facts:

"Creatine works by giving up a phposphate: by binding to ADiP (reduced ATriP) you are not going to reduce enough ATP sitting on your but at work, so only use it after the workout. "

"What makes since is using creatine to recycle ATP when it is reduced to ADP (after about 12min of intense training)..."

"anyway summary: creatine with thermogens don't do anything. "

first, creatine enters the body and binds with a phosphate to produce ATP, after performing intense exercise ATP loses a molicule and is then ADP, but creatine re-forms ADP into ATP, so in short, you have faster replenishment of lost energy. what you said sort of confused the hell out of me.

your second thing also confused me, pay attention in english class. as for the 12 minutes of intense training, creatines effects only enhance a short breif period of exersion.

third, creatine with thermogenics does do somthing, it has the ability to cause dehydration

-cj

[CHUCK DIESEL]

he ding, dong you ever heard of the Citirc Acid Cycle? Don't read my post and not check your refrences before posting reply messages, you will make yourself look stupid everytime! Everything I say is in my head from years of research and schooling!


my motto is you keep doing what you've been doing...you are going to keep looking the way you've been looking! (when was you last show? I took 3rd at the Colorado Natural oct 15th 2003, then turned around and flew to San Antonio the following week and took 2nd in the HVY class (198lbs. to 220lbs. at the Lackland Bench Press Open.......I was inclining 315 for 6 before you could even afford internet access........don't talk about it, be about it!)


you make ATP from NADH not from creatine, One molecule of NAD(H) produces 3 ATP. ATP is made during aerobic respiation (the reducing of the coenzymes NADH and FADh2).

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CJ you said:

first, creatine enters the body and binds with a phosphate to produce ATP, after performing intense exercise ATP loses a molicule and is then ADP, but creatine re-forms ADP into ATP, so in short, you have faster replenishment of lost energy.
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CREATINE ONLY BINDS TO ADP, NOT USED TO MAKE ATP. ATP IS MADE IN A 3 PHOSPHATE GROUP. NEVER MADE IN THE BODY AS ADP. YEAH IT DOES RECYCLE ADP TO ATP AND THATS IT. THE ONLY WAY YOU ARE GOING TO MAKE ADP IS REDUCING THE ATP BY EXERTING ENERGY!!!!

-----------also cj, biology guru I found this just for you at http://www.absolute-creatine.com/---...--------------

1. Provide additional energy for your muscles

Time for a quick and simple biology lesson. In your body you have a compound called ATP (adenosine tri-phosphate). Think of ATP as an energy containing compound. What is important to know about ATP is that the body can very quickly get energy from a ATP reaction. You have other sources of energy such as carbohydrates and fat - but they take longer to convert into a useable energy source. When you are doing an intense quick burst activity - such as lifting a weight or sprinting, your muscles must contract and need a quick source of energy. This immediate energy comes from ATP.

Okay - still with us? Here is where it gets interesting. When your muscles use ATP for energy a chemical process happens where the ATP is broken down into two simpler chemicals ADP (adenosine di-phosphate) and inorganic phosphate. This process of ATP turning into ADP releases the energy which gives your muscles the ability to contract. Unfortunately, we do not have an endless supply of ATP. In fact, your muscles only contain enough ATP to last about 10-15 seconds at maximum exertion. In case you were wondering - no, the ADP can not be used to create more energy for your muscles.

Here is where the creatine comes in - or more specifically the creatine phosphate (CP). We don't want to go into great detail on creatine vs. creatine phosphate now (that is in a later article) - all you need to know now is that the majority of creatine that is stored in the muscles bonds with abundant phosphorus stores in the muscles and is converted into Creatine Phosphate (CP). CP is able to react with the ADP in your body and turn "useless" ADP back into the "super useful" energy source - ATP. More ATP in your body means more fuel for your muscles.

2. Volumization of your muscles

Looks like we just made up that word -Volumization - doesn't it? Actually, it's just a fancy name for the process of pulling fluid into the muscle cells and thus increasing the volume of the muscles. Creatine has been shown to pull water into your muscle cells, which increases the size of your muscles. Don't get to excited - it is not clear how great an effect this has. Point #1 is a much clearer benefit of creatine.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------also you load on creatine to make yourself get bigger because it take 3 molecules of water to store 1 molecule of creatine, like a carbohydrate molecule. Not to make ATP, just recycle ATP!!!!!!


-----------------this is from nadh.com, go there!-------------------------

Every living thing contains the chemical, adenosine triphosphate (ATP). ATP is used to provide energy for heat, nerve electricity, light (as in fireflies), and muscle movement. An ATP molecule is held together by strong electrical forces which are set free when the molecule is broken apart in a chemical reaction. Somehow these forces are converted into the kind of mechanical energy that will move our muscles. The part broken from the ATP molecule is a smaller molecule called phosphate. After the phosphate is broken off, living organisms can put it back and use the ATP molecule again. To do this, a rebuilding chemical called phos****en

(SEE WHERE EAS CAME UP WITH THE NAME FOR THEIR CREATINE PRODUCT......DUMB ASS) ,

is used for a while until the powerful glycogen cycle takes over the production of fresh ATP energy. The glycogen cycle is a series of chemical steps in which sugar and other substances are used to make fresh ATP in large quantities. The whole process is so intricate that dozens of chemical reactions take place, literally, in the wink of an eye!

-----------above from www.nadh.com, not me!-------------------------

I made a page just for you (and thanks for having me stop packaging orders to check your ass....cj!


http://www.getdiesel.net/atp.htm

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I will see you at the Arnold, I will be giving away T-shirts and samples of new products, you probably will be talking s*** about how you can bench 205 for 3 reps! Please do not make me lose my military bearing. You never know who you might run into or who knows who, so a word to the wise, don't hide behind your keyboard! The cyber you is way harder than the real cj!!!! Don't question my Pharmacology degree!!!

I am only here to educate, and put out good products and help people achieve their goals. I could be robbing people like the rest of the supplement industry, but like Jeremy and his brother, I want to give you guys a place to share knowledge and not get "GNC raped" everytime you go to by supplements!

I work 13 hours + in the Air Force and run a supplement company, show some respect to me and my co-workers from all the branches that make the freedom you have to post smart ass comments possible.

I did not spend 6 months in the middle east during OEF for this. This time last year I was 1 month into doing stuff I don't even want to talk about on the other side of the Planet, and had till March of this year to go............ do you talk to all the other supplement company owners who take time to try to help people here like this?

This board has given me nothing but heat! I am done here!

[CHUCK DIESEL]

before you make a smart ass comment the show was oct 15th 2002

[Joel]

CHUCK, you stated in an earlier thread that you take a lot of HMB. Do you highly recommend taking it to others? What benefits do you feel you are getting from the HMB?

Thanks

[CHUCK DIESEL]

Joel I will answer you, I think the HMB helps me keep size on.

I think you can do without it, if you are big on glutamine, and eat alot of food. But since its like 14 bucks for a bottle here at bb.com a buddy I work with wanted to buy some, so I got 6 bottles (at another site for 20 bucks each, and forgot to look here!!!), gave him 2 and started taking it again. Its better to be safe than sorry you know........ I came off HMB from oct 01 to march 02 because I did not want to carry all that stuff with me and still shot up from 190lbs to 208 during that time, but I think i went up about 4% bodyfat during that time also.

If you have limited money with the lower prices on hmb and you want to take something anticatabolic before you go to sleep, pop 3 or 4 of those. The moring after a workout I usally pop 3 or 4 more. The human trials when mixed with creatine are good, but usually those are not test subjects allready carrying way more muscle than they should for their frame. You kind of have to experiment.

You know what worked for me is 1200mg of methoxy a day, 400mg 3X day with a meal. I was dieting while doing that in dec and jan of 01/02 for a show and still put on mass (about 4lbs) thats good for me. I think I am going to order some bulk meth and make some more capsules.

[labrad]

Originally posted by CHUCK DIESEL
Joel I will answer you, I think the HMB helps me keep size on.

I think you can do without it, if you are big on glutamine, and eat alot of food. But since its like 14 bucks for a bottle here at bb.com a buddy I work with wanted to buy some, so I got 6 bottles (at another site for 20 bucks each, and forgot to look here!!!), gave him 2 and started taking it again. Its better to be safe than sorry you know........ I came off HMB from oct 01 to march 02 because I did not want to carry all that stuff with me and still shot up from 190lbs to 208 during that time, but I think i went up about 4% bodyfat during that time also.

If you have limited money with the lower prices on hmb and you want to take something anticatabolic before you go to sleep, pop 3 or 4 of those. The moring after a workout I usally pop 3 or 4 more. The human trials when mixed with creatine are good, but usually those are not test subjects allready carrying way more muscle than they should for their frame. You kind of have to experiment.

You know what worked for me is 1200mg of methoxy a day, 400mg 3X day with a meal. I was dieting while doing that in dec and jan of 01/02 for a show and still put on mass (about 4lbs) thats good for me. I think I am going to order some bulk meth and make some more capsules.

C'mon now you are hyping HMB and methoxy this is too much to take.

[cjszip]

yeah, he's hyping HMB and methoxy, i agree, it is too much. chuck, i still say pay attention in english class. however you know your stuff, so if i'm proven wrong, i stand corrected.

-cj

[cjszip]

by the way, the maturity of your posts shows through... you sound like a child, not once did i insult you or start name calling.

-cj

[Y2Karl]

Originally posted by CHUCK DIESEL
you make ATP from NADH not from creatine, One molecule of NAD(H) produces 3 ATP. ATP is made during aerobic respiation (the reducing of the coenzymes NADH and FADh2).

Hey chuck, I'm pretty sure you also make ATP from anaerobic respiration, too. As long as you have a constant supply of NADH, then glycolysis will keep producing ATP. I realize out of every glucose molecule, 36 ATP are made, during aerobic respiration, but 2 ATP are made in glycolysis under conditions in which your body is not getting enough oxygen to the muscles, therefore lactic acid fermentation begins. Oh well, just my 2 cents.
Peace
Karl

[Y2Karl]

Hey chuck, not trying to argue, just checkin up on my facts. Correct me if i'm wrong

[CHUCK DIESEL]

hey I wrote this in there:

you make ATP from NADH not from creatine, One molecule of NAD(H) produces 3 ATP. ATP is made during aerobic respiation (the reducing of the coenzymes NADH and FADh2).
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NAD(H) is a raw material capable of making ATP, the citric acid cycle is how the componets are reduced, and recycled to a complete circle. Aerobic respiration is a step or process part of the citric acid cycle- the big picture.

I am not hyping HMB, and meth, the guy asked me how do "I" take HMB. If someone says I use HMB blablabla.....no big deal, I say I use it and meth, and everyone is throwing their hands in the air. I am going to keep using the same stuff I have been using, training the same way, I am up 10lbs a year, every year since 95. I wrestled 125 in highschool and 126 in colledge.

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Whats the big deal....."Hey everyone I take solutron muliti's from GNC, 3 a day because mega men is too expensive.."

Look out, here it comes, "Now you are hyping multi's.........

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Food, sleep, and training does more than any supplement, you guys are placing too much importance in pills and powders.

i am not running spell check on an message board post, its not that serious.

[CHUCK DIESEL]

by the way, the maturity of your posts shows through... you sound like a child,...


what is through?

I don't sound like anything, this is a message board post, I can read however you think I read, but don't say I sound like anything because you have never spoke to me.

Hey CJ email your address to diesel@getdiesel.net but I will not send you a sample I will send you an entire 180 caps bottle, to show you this is not about hyping products, and selling my sups. Use it and you dont even have to tell the board if you like it, as long as show 1 person I know my stuff and it reflects in my products, next is 2, then 3 and so on.

[Rolling_thunder]

Originally posted by CHUCK DIESEL
hey I wrote this in there:

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Food, sleep, and training does more than any supplement, you guys are placing too much importance in pills and powders.

i am not running spell check on an message board post, its not that serious.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think this last statement is of most importance over all the others... you can supplement all you want, but without the proper diet, adaquate sleep and realistic blend of training, the supplements go to waste (or are not used as efficiently as they could be otherwise).

Sometimes we get so hung up on the "hype", we forget about the basics....

Every publication concerning training has promoted 2 basic principles: Sleep (at least 7-8 hours, for repair purposes) and water intake (to flush radicals, hydrate muscles etc.).

The follow up being a good diet consisting of excellent protein sources (50-60% in the diet), complex carbs (20-30% for fuel and help protein migration into the muscles) and fat (10-15%).

I could go on, but I am not well versed in this area, just passing along what I have read and learned, and hopefully, it's good mojo!

[cjszip]

Originally posted by CHUCK DIESEL
by the way, the maturity of your posts shows through... you sound like a child,...


what is through?

I don't sound like anything, this is a message board post, I can read however you think I read, but don't say I sound like anything because you have never spoke to me.

Hey CJ email your address to diesel@getdiesel.net but I will not send you a sample I will send you an entire 180 caps bottle, to show you this is not about hyping products, and selling my sups. Use it and you dont even have to tell the board if you like it, as long as show 1 person I know my stuff and it reflects in my products, next is 2, then 3 and so on.

chuck, talk to me through PM, if your **** is legitimate, i'll give you all the credit and then some to my friends and those on the board.

-cj

[cjszip]

check your PM's chuck

-cj

[Rolling_thunder]

Originally posted by cjszip
chuck, talk to me through PM, if your **** is legitimate, i'll give you all the credit and then some to my friends and those on the board.

-cj

... and this is where it's hard to take someone's word at face value..... so Diesel puts up, the stuff works, and everyone is happy!

That's the beauty of this type of forum.... we pipe in with our opines, and then it's put to trial, and the results speak for themselves (hopefully). As long as we can avert getting personal, that is.

[cjszip]

unfortunately diesel nutrition only makes a fat burner, and since i'm bulking i have no need to burn more calories than i should.. if i was cutting, i'd give him a fair trial

-cj