Bulking! What am I doing wrong?

[Stockmoose16]

I started bulking about 3.5 weeks ago and I've put on 5.5 pounds. I started at 5'8, 145, and am now almost 151. I eat around 2900 calories a day, pretty clean. Problem is, I seem to be putting on fat. What am I doing wrong? Here's a sample day:

Breakfast:

1 cup of honey nut cheerios w/ 4 oz. skim milk
1 Fudge Graham Zone bar

Morning Snack: (PRE-WORKOUT)

1 cinn raisin bagel w/ 2 tblspoons of Peanut butter

Lunch (POST-WORKOUT)
1.5 scoops Synth-6 w/water
1 extra large banana


Mid afternoon snack

1 Cup of honey nut cheerios w/4 oz skim milk
4 ounces of Pacific Gold beef jerky

Dinner
1 4 oz chicken breast
2 tblspoons of Sweet Baby Ray's BBQ sauce

Late night snack

2 cups of Costco Egg Starters

Final Breakdown:

Total Cals: 2877
Carbs: 322 g (43%)
Protein: 266g (37%)
Fat: 63g (20%)

[buddy72192]

It's water weight... 4 ounces of beef jerky has about 2200 sodium in it and the BBQ sauce adds even more sodium. So you are consuming quite a bit of sodium and it's keeping the water in your body.

[Stockmoose16]

It's water weight... 4 ounces of beef jerky has about 2200 sodium in it and the BBQ sauce adds even more sodium. So you are consuming quite a bit of sodium and it's keeping the water in your body.

But what about the fat I'm putting on? Why am I putting on so much? I should add that I'm also using creatine.

[Sim882]

You could improve food choices, or reduce cals.

I'd try option 1 first

There is a lot of crap here - cheerios, bars, raisin bagels (ur pre-workout meal is terrible, lacking protein), also your PWO is too low on carbs, check the sugar content on the sauce, and I'm not sure what "2 cups of Costco Egg Starters" doubting they have enough protein

I started bulking about 3.5 weeks ago and I've put on 5.5 pounds. I started at 5'8, 145, and am now almost 151. I eat around 2900 calories a day, pretty clean. Problem is, I seem to be putting on fat. What am I doing wrong? Here's a sample day:

Breakfast:

1 cup of honey nut cheerios w/ 4 oz. skim milk
1 Fudge Graham Zone bar

Morning Snack: (PRE-WORKOUT)

1 cinn raisin bagel w/ 2 tblspoons of Peanut butter

Lunch (POST-WORKOUT)
1.5 scoops Synth-6 w/water
1 extra large banana


Mid afternoon snack

1 Cup of honey nut cheerios w/4 oz skim milk
4 ounces of Pacific Gold beef jerky

Dinner
1 4 oz chicken breast
2 tblspoons of Sweet Baby Ray's BBQ sauce

Late night snack

2 cups of Costco Egg Starters

Final Breakdown:

Total Cals: 2877
Carbs: 322 g (43%)
Protein: 266g (37%)
Fat: 63g (20%)

[War_Nerve]

"Pretty clean". Your diet is utter ****. Read the stickies and learn how to bulk or otherwise you will pile on the fat with a vengeance.

[Stockmoose16]

"Pretty clean". Your diet is utter ****. Read the stickies and learn how to bulk or otherwise you will pile on the fat with a vengeance.

What do you mean it's utter ****? I take in 2900 calories and my BMR is 2500. My P:C:F ratio is 40:40:20. What's the problem?

[War_Nerve]

What do you mean it's utter ****? I take in 2900 calories and my BMR is 2500. My P:C:F ratio is 40:40:20. What's the problem?

Your food choices are horrendous. Almost everything you have is packaged crap. You have zero vegetables, only one serving of real meat. Bagels are ****. You could really eat a TON more food at the same calories. It will be healthier and taste much better than all the 7-11 food you are eating now.

[Stockmoose16]

Your food choices are horrendous. Almost everything you have is packaged crap. You have zero vegetables, only one serving of real meat. Bagels are ****. You could really eat a TON more food at the same calories. It will be healthier and taste much better than all the 7-11 food you are eating now.

I don't see why it matters if it's packaged or not. I'm keeping the correct calorie count and the right macro mix 40:40:20.

[Stockmoose16]

You could improve food choices, or reduce cals.

I'd try option 1 first

There is a lot of crap here - cheerios, bars, raisin bagels (ur pre-workout meal is terrible, lacking protein), also your PWO is too low on carbs, check the sugar content on the sauce, and I'm not sure what "2 cups of Costco Egg Starters" doubting they have enough protein

Sim,

I go for 40:40:20, P:C:F, every day, about 2900 calories. With that mix, I end up taking in about 280 grams of protein (and I weigh about 150). Why is my diet bad if I'm staying within the confines of both the caloric and macro restrictions? Sure, the Honey Nut Cheerios have sugar, but that's taken into account in my carb mix.

[Stockmoose16]

Your food choices are horrendous. Almost everything you have is packaged crap. You have zero vegetables, only one serving of real meat. Bagels are ****. You could really eat a TON more food at the same calories. It will be healthier and taste much better than all the 7-11 food you are eating now.

Bagels aren't ****-- they're complex carbs. And again, everything fits into the 40:40:20 P:C:F diet. Fat should only be happening if I'm over-eating. If you look throughout these forums, people always say that if you don't eat enough, it doesn't matter if you eat clean or dirty, you'll never put on size.

[Sim882]

I don't see why it matters if it's packaged or not. I'm keeping the correct calorie count and the right macro mix 40:40:20.

I was trying to say politely what War Nerve said bluntly - perhaps u have to be blunt.

He is correct - listen to what he say's. No one should be putting on so much fat at 2900 cals, so I'd really reconsider ur foods choices.

This is my bulking diet as an example of clean bulking (I weigh same as u, but am consuming 3000-3500 cals depending on how much exercise I have done on the particular day - normally closer to 3000 though)

(1) Oats, Flaxseeds, 2 whole eggs, 100 grams non-fat cottage cheese or kangaroo.
(2) Salmon, sweet potato, fiberours vegetabels
(3) 4 whole eggs
(4) (pre-workout) Oats, whey, skim milk
(5) PWO shake, BCAA's, glutamine, whey, waxy maize
(6) kangaroo, non-fat cottage cheese, pumpkin (pre-bed and PWO meal), some fat source (nuts or avacodo)

Eg., variety of protein sources (salmon, kangaroo, eggs, cheese), vegetabes, no processed grains, cholestoral from egg, omega 3 from salmon.

(Note, white bread is techinically a complex carb, but it is devoid of nutrients and absorbed like glucose)

[PrimetimeNoob]

not the best foods. have oats in the morning with fruit.
also get more fats in there somewhere

[Stockmoose16]

I was trying to say politely what War Nerve said bluntly - perhaps u have to be blunt.

He is correct - listen to what he say's. No one should be putting on so much fat at 2900 cals, so I'd really reconsider ur foods choices.

This is my bulking diet as an example of clean bulking (I weigh same as u, but am consuming 3000-3500 cals depending on how much exercise I have done on the particular day - normally closer to 3000 though)

(1) Oats, Flaxseeds, 2 whole eggs, 100 grams non-fat cottage cheese or kangaroo.
(2) Salmon, sweet potato, fiberours vegetabels
(3) 4 whole eggs
(4) (pre-workout) Oats, whey, skim milk
(5) PWO shake, BCAA's, glutamine, whey, waxy maize
(6) kangaroo, non-fat cottage cheese, pumpkin (pre-bed and PWO meal), some fat source (nuts or avacodo)

Eg., variety of protein sources (salmon, kangaroo, eggs, cheese), vegetabes, no processed grains, cholestoral from egg, omega 3 from salmon.

I am confused. I thought that if I ate ~500 calories above my BMR and kept a 40:40:20 diet, how I got there wouldn't matter. Sure, I have a bowl of honey nut cheerios, but it fits within the diet. Can you please explain?

I should add that it's not A LOT of fat. I probably put 1/2 inch on my waist.

[Stockmoose16]

not the best foods. have oats in the morning with fruit.
also get more fats in there somewhere

So is 40:40:20 macro incorrect? I was directed to using that ratio when I first started bulking. I don't understand why I'm now being told those are the best foods.

[candidizzle]

your eating carbohydrates. thats why your getting fat.


INSULIN= FAT STORAGE


Instead of eating carbohydrates...eat copius amounts of healthy fats and complete proteins. you wont get fat and youll grow super big super quick.


the naturally occuring carbohydrates in things like nuts, eggs, and vegetables will be plenty to replenish glycogen for your next workout. your not going to burn more than 75 or so grams of glycogen per workout.

[Stockmoose16]

your eating carbohydrates. thats why your getting fat.


INSULIN= FAT STORAGE


Instead of eating carbohydrates...eat copius amounts of healthy fats and complete proteins. you wont get fat and youll grow super big super quick.


the naturally occuring carbohydrates in things like nuts, eggs, and vegetables will be plenty to replenish glycogen for your next workout. your not going to burn more than 75 or so grams of glycogen per workout.

Yes, I'm eating carbs, but only 40%. I can't eat much more protein, as I'm already taking in 280 grams per day (40%).

[trueaussie]

because nearly half ur carb intake is sugar which is not stored as glycogen in muscles and eventually processed as fat...listen to the blokes who are trying to give u advice...the best source of carbs are in oats and wholewheat bread...a good source of protein is in white and red meat plus a good source of fat for bulking in red meat...eggs are good too...cut the cheerios out (full of sugar) and all other food sources mentioned above by the blokes giving u advice...

[Sim882]

So is 40:40:20 macro incorrect? I was directed to using that ratio when I first started bulking. I don't understand why I'm now being told those are the best foods.

40:40:20 is fine. Personally, I prefer slightly higher carbs, but 40:40:20 is most common.

Stockmoose I would consider to do the following:

(1) If u want to keep the diet as it is, drop the beef jerky and see if your waist size returns. Although natural sea salt doesn't bloat me, I do find processed salt quite bloating, and it's possible that the only thing that's happened u have gained water weight

(2) Given ur only consuming 500 cals over maintenance (personally, I'd thought ur maintenance would be about 2700), theoretically most u could gain is 1 pound of fat per week. What's ur training regime like? If ur training regime is poor, the surplus calories will be directed to fat, not muscle gain.

Ensure ur including most of the following free weight exercises, which are better suited to stimuating muscle mass and burn more cals also: squats, deadlifts, bench, dips, rows, pull/chin ups, power cleans etc.

(3) Are u consuming too many calories? I doubt it, but what were u eating before.

(4) If all the above fails, although I would try this before 3, clean up the diet. Sugar in cereals is normally 1/2 fructose if not more (if HCFC), and this tends to be metabolised as fat by the liver if liver glycogen is full, and therefore, surplus calories coming from fructose will more likely to be converted into fat than muscle. I would as a consequence consider replacing the breakfast cereal at the least.

[Stockmoose16]

because nearly half ur carb intake is sugar which is not stored as glycogen in muscles and eventually processed as fat...listen to the blokes who are trying to give u advice...the best source of carbs are in oats and wholewheat bread...a good source of protein is in white and red meat plus a good source of fat for bulking in red meat...eggs are good too...cut the cheerios out (full of sugar) and all other food sources mentioned above by the blokes giving u advice...

So I should keep 40:40:20, but I can't eat carbs with sugar? That's very limiting. From a nutritional standpoint, I should be putting on a ton of muscle if I'm eating 280g of protein and taking in about 500 cals over my MBR. Why does a bowl of honey nut cheerios make such a big difference, especially since it fits in the 40:40:20 diet.

[Sim882]

because nearly half ur carb intake is sugar which is not stored as glycogen in muscles and eventually processed as fat...listen to the blokes who are trying to give u advice...the best source of carbs are in oats and wholewheat bread...a good source of protein is in white and red meat plus a good source of fat for bulking in red meat...eggs are good too...cut the cheerios out (full of sugar) and all other food sources mentioned above by the blokes giving u advice...

I think u just beat me to this point

To clarify, choose foods from this list:

PROTEIN
- red meat (lean if ur worried about putting on fat), chicken, fish, whole eggs, non-fat dairy, protein powders if PWO, or casein if not eating for a while

FATS
- salmon, fatty fish, flax, nuts (although their not all equal, e.g almond > brazil nut), whole eggs, avocado, EV olive oil

CARBS
- yams, sweet potatoes, white potatoes, unprocessed grains (particularly barley & oats), corn, legumes, sweet peas, pumpkin, brown/basamiti rice, veggies for some carbs and nutrition.

[Sim882]

So I should keep 40:40:20, but I can't eat carbs with sugar? That's very limiting. From a nutritional standpoint, I should be putting on a ton of muscle if I'm eating 280g of protein and taking in about 500 cals over my MBR. Why does a bowl of honey nut cheerios make such a big difference, especially since it fits in the 40:40:20 diet.

This has been explained twice

Honey is 1/2 fructose.

Fructose does not become muscle glycogen; its converted into fat frequently.

Basically, there is a tendency to gain some fat on a calorie surplus - avoiding sugar is a way of minimising this tendancy

[LiveOnce]

If you are trying to bulk, there is no way you can eat cereal as the main course of your breakfast.

[Stockmoose16]

40:40:20 is fine. Personally, I prefer slightly higher carbs, but 40:40:20 is most common.

Stockmoose I would consider to do the following:

(1) If u want to keep the diet as it is, drop the beef jerky and see if your waist size returns. Although natural sea salt doesn't bloat me, I do find processed salt quite bloating, and it's possible that the only thing that's happened u have gained water weight

(2) Given ur only consuming 500 cals over maintenance (personally, I'd thought ur maintenance would be about 2700), theoretically most u could gain is 1 pound of fat per week. What's ur training regime like? If ur training regime is poor, the surplus calories will be directed to fat, not muscle gain.

Ensure ur including most of the following free weight exercises, which are better suited to stimuating muscle mass and burn more cals also: squats, deadlifts, bench, dips, rows, pull/chin ups, power cleans etc.

(3) Are u consuming too many calories? I doubt it, but what were u eating before.

(4) If all the above fails, although I would try this before 3, clean up the diet. Sugar in cereals is normally 1/2 fructose if not more (if HCFC), and this tends to be metabolised as fat by the liver if liver glycogen is full, and therefore, surplus calories coming from fructose will more likely to be converted into fat than muscle. I would as a consequence consider replacing the breakfast cereal at the least.

Sim,

Thanks for the methodical advice. Your expertise is appreciated. I should add a couple points:

1) I don't eat the beef jerky daily, but I do consume creatine, which I believe adds water weight. I don't have an accurate measurement of how much fat I put on, but it's probably about 1/2 inch on my waist. I assume if I'm taking in excess calories, it's natural to put on some fat, right? Isn't that why people eventually cut after bulking?

2) My workout regimen includes lifting 4 x /wk, for about 80 minutes/session. I do deadlifts, squats, bench, pullups... lots of compound exercises. I've worked with a trainer, so I think my workout regimen is solid. I also do power yoga 1x/wk. I've eliminated all cardio (except for a 5 min warm-up at 7.5 mph) to assist with the bulk.

3) Before entering into this diet, I would float between 140-145 pounds, depending on the amount of cardio I was doing. I had no care for my diet whatsoever. I regularly ate fast food, never paying attention to calories or macros. Somehow, I never put on weight or size, just strength. I entered this diet because I wanted to add size to my body. My strength is way over average given my size, and I want them to match up.

4) Before I cut out the Honey Nut Cheerios, I think I need a better measuring stick. What's an acceptable amount of fat to put on during a bulk? I notice from your avatar that you still have a six pack, even though you're eating more calories than me. If you're eating 50% carbs, and I'm only eating 40% carbs, how come I don't have a low body fat like you? I'd say I'm about 15% body fat.

[Stockmoose16]

This has been explained twice

Honey is 1/2 fructose.

Fructose does not become muscle glycogen; its converted into fat frequently.

Basically, there is a tendency to gain some fat on a calorie surplus - avoiding sugar is a way of minimising this tendancy

So sugar is basically a carb, but a bad carb, because even though it may fit into the 40:40:20, it turns into glucose not glycogen? Glucose is turned into fat?

[Sim882]

Ur training routine sounds fine, similar to mine in fact.

When did u start taking creatine? It will cause u to put on about 3-5lbs, everyone's different, and I notice my lower abs look somewhat worse after using it initially (but for some reason lower abs are now back in force and creatine bloating diminished).

If u starting bulking at 15% bf, ur not going to see ur abs while bulking. This will have to wait until you cut. It would take u 6-12 weeks of cutting to get them I would think.

As for what is acceptable level of fat to put on a bulk, opinions differ. For every lb of muscle, u'd prob want to gain no more than 0.5 of lb.

To avoid putting on too much fat, I do the following:

Why not consider cutting about every 2 weeks of 12. That's what I tend to do. I might bulk for 10 weeks, then briefly cut for 2 weeks, and then start again. I keep the abs like this, and I've done this for about 10 months, and now weigh 70 kilos as opposed to 65 initially, with if anything better abs. Sometimes after 10 weeks i don't think I've gained any fat, so I don't cut. This means I'm kinda cutting every 10-20 weeks for about 2 weeks. It's actually refreshing to eat less when I do it.

A final point, is the honey cheerios really that much of a big deal? I'm mean why not consume oats + flavoured protein powder + cinnamon + stevia to sweeten it up. U will find this tastes quite good.

Sim,

Thanks for the methodical advice. Your expertise is appreciated. I should add a couple points:

1) I don't eat the beef jerky daily, but I do consume creatine, which I believe adds water weight. I don't have an accurate measurement of how much fat I put on, but it's probably about 1/2 inch on my waist. I assume if I'm taking in excess calories, it's natural to put on some fat, right? Isn't that why people eventually cut after bulking?

2) My workout regimen includes lifting 4 x /wk, for about 80 minutes/session. I do deadlifts, squats, bench, pullups... lots of compound exercises. I've worked with a trainer, so I think my workout regimen is solid. I also do power yoga 1x/wk. I've eliminated all cardio (except for a 5 min warm-up at 7.5 mph) to assist with the bulk.

3) Before entering into this diet, I would float between 140-145 pounds, depending on the amount of cardio I was doing. I had no care for my diet whatsoever. I regularly ate fast food, never paying attention to calories or macros. Somehow, I never put on weight or size, just strength. I entered this diet because I wanted to add size to my body. My strength is way over average given my size, and I want them to match up.

4) Before I cut out the Honey Nut Cheerios, I think I need a better measuring stick. What's an acceptable amount of fat to put on during a bulk? I notice from your avatar that you still have a six pack, even though you're eating more calories than me. If you're eating 50% carbs, and I'm only eating 40% carbs, how come I don't have a low body fat like you? I'd say I'm about 15% body fat.

[gotallanswers]

ur bulking suck it up. or dont eat and get cut up and have no musle

[Sim882]

So sugar is basically a carb, but a bad carb, because even though it may fit into the 40:40:20, it turns into glucose not glycogen? Glucose is turned into fat?

Not all sugar turns into glucose.

Glucose can be converted into muscle glycogen - hence why dextrose (glucose) is often used PWO (for some reason though studies show that complex carbs such as maltodextrin still replenish muscle glycogen than an equivalent serving of glucose).

Sucrose is 1/2 gluclose, 1/2 fructose.

HFCS is if anything more fructose. Most sugar added to food is sucrose or HFCS

Lactose (milk sugar) is 1/2 glucose, 1/2 galactase.

Honey is about 1/2 fructose, 1/2 glucose.

Glucose is converted into muscle glycogen, whereas fructose converts to liver glycogen, but because of the livers limited stores, is often converted into fat. I don't know exactly what happens to galactase - no one seems to, but as a consequence, I try to limit milk sugar to < 25 grams per day.

BUT
- as I said b4, see whether weight gain is creatine or sodium, as it may be that it's got nothing to do with the cheerios

[candidizzle]

cut out the carbs, dude!! eat plenty of fats and proteins. you will not get fat in the absence of carbohydrates and insulin!


if you kep your insulin low....or at ZERO.. then you cant have fat storage...not unless you are already lean to the point where its unhealthy...

keep the carbs out.


then increase your daily calories as high as you need to in order to gain weight...this might be as high as 4-5 thousand calories..who knows..?? but you wont get fat without the carbs bro. and contrary to what people might tell you, insulin and carbohydrates will not make you graw any faster. they are only anabolic towards the fat cell. not at all muscle cell growth promoting.

[Stockmoose16]

Ur training routine sounds fine, similar to mine in fact.

When did u start taking creatine? It will cause u to put on about 3-5lbs, everyone's different, and I notice my lower abs look somewhat worse after using it initially (but for some reason lower abs are now back in force and creatine bloating diminished).

If u starting bulking at 15% bf, ur not going to see ur abs while bulking. This will have to wait until you cut. It would take u 6-12 weeks of cutting to get them I would think.

As for what is acceptable level of fat to put on a bulk, opinions differ. For every lb of muscle, u'd prob want to gain no more than 0.5 of lb.

To avoid putting on too much fat, I do the following:

Why not consider cutting about every 2 weeks of 12. That's what I tend to do. I might bulk for 10 weeks, then briefly cut for 2 weeks, and then start again. I keep the abs like this, and I've done this for about 10 months, and now weigh 70 kilos as opposed to 65 initially, with if anything better abs. Sometimes after 10 weeks i don't think I've gained any fat, so I don't cut. This means I'm kinda cutting every 10-20 weeks for about 2 weeks. It's actually refreshing to eat less when I do it.

A final point, is the honey cheerios really that much of a big deal? I'm mean why not consume oats + flavoured protein powder + cinnamon + stevia to sweeten it up. U will find this tastes quite good.

Sim,

I wish I had done a body fat measurement before I started bulking, that way I could accurately measure my progress. Unfortunately, I didn't, and now I'm just playing a guessing game. I have a BF scale, but I can get 3 very different readings throughout the day (seems highly inaccurate).

I started the creatine about 2 weeks ago w/o a loading phase. I just take 5 g per day.

When you cut for 2 weeks, do you pump up your cardio? I wouldn't think you'd drop enough body fat in 2 weeks to show the amount of abs you're showing. My upper abs show when I flex them, but my lower abs are where I store most of my fat. I'm 5'8, 150 with a 33 inch waist, just to give you an idea.


The Honey Nut Cheerios aren''t a big deal, but I'm just trying to gauge how much sugar is too much. I'm looking at the Zone bar I just ate and it says 25g of carbs, 17g of sugar. Is that a lot or a little? I need a measuring stick. I think the big problem is I posted my diet on here a few weeks ago, and someone told me that as long as I ate about 2900 cals to start, my macros wouldn't matter that much. I took the extra precaution of watching my macros, and now I'm being told that even if I stay within the confines of the 40:40:20 ratio, I still need to watch the sugars, even if they fit within the 40:40:20 diet. For a novice, this is getting both confusing and frustrating, and I'm losing my motivation to diet.

[Stockmoose16]

cut out the carbs, dude!! eat plenty of fats and proteins. you will not get fat in the absence of carbohydrates and insulin!


if you kep your insulin low....or at ZERO.. then you cant have fat storage...not unless you are already lean to the point where its unhealthy...

keep the carbs out.


then increase your daily calories as high as you need to in order to gain weight...this might be as high as 4-5 thousand calories..who knows..?? but you wont get fat without the carbs bro. and contrary to what people might tell you, insulin and carbohydrates will not make you graw any faster. they are only anabolic towards the fat cell. not at all muscle cell growth promoting.

How do you workout and keep your energy up if you eat less than 40% carbs. I already eat 280g of protein a day and only weigh 150. If I cut out any more carbs, this diet will become incredibly inhibiting.